TheManyNamed: “So is a Paladin and they arguably have better defense”
Me: “and are guaranteed to be hit by them less than or equal to 50% of the time.”
IDK about you but I don’t think paladins have that same boast.
Paladins are renowned for their Nova capabilities and their naturally occurring defensive features, but classes all gain offensive and defensive features at varying levels which help improve their functionality or the functionality of their party. Fighters and Warlocks do this also but offer ways to utilize these features differently. The Paladin OoA and OoV subclass auras (I have only played those two so far) are two of the best and strongest features for a class in the game, in my opinion. Resource expenditure aside Paladins are quite capable of dealing a massive amount of damage per turn against a single target. I recently polled when to dip into Warlock for my Paladin because of a scenario in a game I was provided with, and after continuous research I came to the independent conclusion that the Paladin/Warlock multiclass is and should be highly revered for people who like to maximize their DPR (if that is your focus), right up there with Sorcadin and Sorlock, and also gain some excellent utility and defensive features.
I think you’re confused about what my “boast” is. I agree fully that Paladins have good defense. However, they cannot GUARANTEE that an attack against them has a 50% or less chance of hitting them, whereas a Hexblade can.
I think you’re confused about what my “boast” is. I agree fully that Paladins have good defense. However, they cannot GUARANTEE that an attack against them has a 50% or less chance of hitting them, whereas a Hexblade can.
I wasn't confused, I was just pointing out that these cut-and-dry best options for Hexblade have a counterpart in other classes, both as a class feature and subclass features additionally. Paladins may not have a guaranteed effect which allows them to be hit 50% or less of the time they're in combat (since we changed the paradigm I guess) but they do have effects which, when hit, can and do significantly impede the amount of damage that can be done to them, along with many, many abilities that effectively neutralize an creatures means to even producing an offense. That is why I mentioned the Auras as a blanket cause to the point I was making, one which gives you resistance to damage from spells, and the other which causes the enemy to be frightened, effectively stopping them from doing damage to you, or anyone else for that matter.
Obviously taking no damage is better than taking any damage, that is a given. Hexblade has features which reduce the amount of incoming damage, just Like Paladin and its subclasses which perform those functions equably.
TheManyNamed: “So is a Paladin and they arguably have better defense”
Me: “and are guaranteed to be hit by them less than or equal to 50% of the time.”
IDK about you but I don’t think paladins have that same boast.
Honestly, comparing class or subclass features on a 1 to 1 basis is probably not the best way to look at it. Classes are the sum of their parts, after all.
That said, Armor of Hexes is a nice ability but don't forget that as a 10th level ability, it should be nice. The limitations of the ability should also be considered. It's usable once per short rest and only if you have your Curse activated. By 14th level, it gets better but still, there are a lot of classes with protective abilities that are not as powerful but are always on. Again, it's just balance.
Fair point. The only thing is that Armor of Hexes is not once/short rest on its own: it has no restrictions except for the target having to be cursed. Otherwise you make a good point, which is exactly why I categorized this thread as subjective
Fair point. The only thing is that Armor of Hexes is not once/short rest on its own: it has no restrictions except for the target having to be cursed. Otherwise you make a good point, which is exactly why I categorized this thread as subjective
Armor of Hexes
10th level
At 10th level, your hex grows more powerful. If the target cursed by your Hexblade’s Curse hits you with an attack roll, you can use your reaction to roll a d6. On a 4 or higher, the attack instead misses you, regardless of its roll.
Yes, thats why its so awesome! If you are really lucky, you might not take damage at all from your opponent!
Fair point. The only thing is that Armor of Hexes is not once/short rest on its own: it has no restrictions except for the target having to be cursed. Otherwise you make a good point, which is exactly why I categorized this thread as subjective
Armor of Hexes
10th level
At 10th level, your hex grows more powerful. If the target cursed by your Hexblade’s Curse hits you with an attack roll, you can use your reaction to roll a d6. On a 4 or higher, the attack instead misses you, regardless of its roll.
Yes, thats why its so awesome! If you are really lucky, you might not take damage at all from your opponent!
I’m glad you see where I’m coming from. Also it guarantees without a doubt that all attacks have a 50% or less chance to hit. Still, the Hexblade is not “better” at any one feature than other classes. But, it does excel at being a generalist, with a particular shine in combat, right at level 1. The Bard has to wait till Level 3 to go College of Swords to get anything in combat.
I think everyone is suffering from a lack of understanding about Hexblade, especially at latter levels. Invocations play a part in weapon attacks with blade pact (as every warlock class does). With the lifedrinker invocation (lvl 12 - +1 charisma damage AGAIN on top of each hit), and improved pact weapon with thirsting blade that more than makes up for an extra attack at level 11 for fighter. Not to mention, that Hexblade's curse does +prof damage for each hit for a whole combat, not just one round of Nova from action surge, you're looking at +15 damage with every hit on a target with out even considering whatever concentration spell (which can be used as offense, defense, and support and would easily be better than indomitable). Add in Sharpshooter/Great weapon master and damn... at level 12...
Fair point. The only thing is that Armor of Hexes is not once/short rest on its own: it has no restrictions except for the target having to be cursed. Otherwise you make a good point, which is exactly why I categorized this thread as subjective
Armor of Hexes
10th level
At 10th level, your hex grows more powerful. If the target cursed by your Hexblade’s Curse hits you with an attack roll, you can use your reaction to roll a d6. On a 4 or higher, the attack instead misses you, regardless of its roll.
Yes, thats why its so awesome! If you are really lucky, you might not take damage at all from your opponent!
I’m glad you see where I’m coming from. Also it guarantees without a doubt that all attacks have a 50% or less chance to hit. Still, the Hexblade is not “better” at any one feature than other classes. But, it does excel at being a generalist, with a particular shine in combat, right at level 1. The Bard has to wait till Level 3 to go College of Swords to get anything in combat.
Well technically 1 attack as you only have 1 reaction.
The hexblade can be one of the highest single target DPS classes in the game, the PAMlock is insane. Multiclass stuff can probably beat it, in one round a fighter can beat it, but over a fight I'm not sure on that.
I'm playing a Hexblade right now, I really like it, but... well this is an absurd discussion.
First, Armor of Hexes almost never comes up. This is not an "all the time thing" but is only applicable when your once/rest, one minute long ability is active on the thing you're fighting AND that thing uses attack rolls against you AND there's someone else there to lock down that Big Bad in melee combat.
If you want to play a melee fighter, part of the role is to keep the baddies off the squishy casters. Using your reaction on Armor of Hexes is NOT part of playing a melee fighter. A smart DM will leverage that Armor of Hexes roll as the battlefield control blunder that it is. It's a trap, don't use it. If a baddie wants to move past you, they must take the (potentially very painful) opportunity attack. Sacrificing an attack roll to get past you is a smart trade for the DM.
Maybe you're thinking a Hexblade should be more like a Rogue - only there to do damage. Well, then look at a Rogue's ability to avoid damage via Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and Cunning Action. A Hexblade has nowhere near that ability to avoid damage.
Further, this idea that you're "guaranteed" some special defense via this skill is just silly and wrong. A Shield spell is almost always better if you want to use your reaction on defense (and again, if you're a Hexblade, you really do not want to use your reaction on defense). There's this focus on the 50% number. Yes. You can spend your reaction and ONLY have a 50% chance to avoid a single attack roll. Very, very rarely is this worth it.
I play in a campaign with a Fighter. The fighter almost always does more damage than I do (and I'm tricked out, Lifedrinker, max CHA, annoying-ass Feats, the whole deal). In addition, the Fighter has a TON more HP than I do. He's a Fighter! I get into the fights faster, move around the battlefield better, and have some spells that can make a huge difference. It's not like I do a little damage either, together we're a meat grinder. It's a lot of fun, one of the most enjoyable casting fighter classes I've played.
I'm playing a Hexblade right now, I really like it, but... well this is an absurd discussion.
First, Armor of Hexes almost never comes up. This is not an "all the time thing" but is only applicable when your once/rest, one minute long ability is active on the thing you're fighting AND that thing uses attack rolls against you AND there's someone else there to lock down that Big Bad in melee combat.
If you want to play a melee fighter, part of the role is to keep the baddies off the squishy casters. Using your reaction on Armor of Hexes is NOT part of playing a melee fighter. A smart DM will leverage that Armor of Hexes roll as the battlefield control blunder that it is. It's a trap, don't use it. If a baddie wants to move past you, they must take the (potentially very painful) opportunity attack. Sacrificing an attack roll to get past you is a smart trade for the DM.
Maybe you're thinking a Hexblade should be more like a Rogue - only there to do damage. Well, then look at a Rogue's ability to avoid damage via Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and Cunning Action. A Hexblade has nowhere near that ability to avoid damage.
Further, this idea that you're "guaranteed" some special defense via this skill is just silly and wrong. A Shield spell is almost always better if you want to use your reaction on defense (and again, if you're a Hexblade, you really do not want to use your reaction on defense). There's this focus on the 50% number. Yes. You can spend your reaction and ONLY have a 50% chance to avoid a single attack roll. Very, very rarely is this worth it.
I play in a campaign with a Fighter. The fighter almost always does more damage than I do (and I'm tricked out, Lifedrinker, max CHA, annoying-ass Feats, the whole deal). In addition, the Fighter has a TON more HP than I do. He's a Fighter! I get into the fights faster, move around the battlefield better, and have some spells that can make a huge difference. It's not like I do a little damage either, together we're a meat grinder. It's a lot of fun, one of the most enjoyable casting fighter classes I've played.
It's no bard though.
I agree with most of your points however, the one thing a PAMlock (if you have elven heritage) has over the Fighter is the ability to combine Great Weapon Master with Elven Accuracy. The PAMlock has on demand advantage in the form of Devil Sight and Darkness during the early levels and Shadows of Moil a little later on. Against tougher enemies the Fighter may have to stop taking the -5 penalty thus greatly reducing their damage output while the PAMlock with their 3 rolls per attack don't really ever need to drop the -5 penalty. This is huge because every hit is an extra 15 more damage compared to a Fighter not using Great Weapon Master.
Paladins are renowned for their Nova capabilities and their naturally occurring defensive features, but classes all gain offensive and defensive features at varying levels which help improve their functionality or the functionality of their party. Fighters and Warlocks do this also but offer ways to utilize these features differently. The Paladin OoA and OoV subclass auras (I have only played those two so far) are two of the best and strongest features for a class in the game, in my opinion. Resource expenditure aside Paladins are quite capable of dealing a massive amount of damage per turn against a single target. I recently polled when to dip into Warlock for my Paladin because of a scenario in a game I was provided with, and after continuous research I came to the independent conclusion that the Paladin/Warlock multiclass is and should be highly revered for people who like to maximize their DPR (if that is your focus), right up there with Sorcadin and Sorlock, and also gain some excellent utility and defensive features.
Paladins certainly have that boast.
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I think you’re confused about what my “boast” is. I agree fully that Paladins have good defense. However, they cannot GUARANTEE that an attack against them has a 50% or less chance of hitting them, whereas a Hexblade can.
I think this thread has gone a bit out of hand. Is there any way to close/delete it?
I wasn't confused, I was just pointing out that these cut-and-dry best options for Hexblade have a counterpart in other classes, both as a class feature and subclass features additionally. Paladins may not have a guaranteed effect which allows them to be hit 50% or less of the time they're in combat (since we changed the paradigm I guess) but they do have effects which, when hit, can and do significantly impede the amount of damage that can be done to them, along with many, many abilities that effectively neutralize an creatures means to even producing an offense. That is why I mentioned the Auras as a blanket cause to the point I was making, one which gives you resistance to damage from spells, and the other which causes the enemy to be frightened, effectively stopping them from doing damage to you, or anyone else for that matter.
Obviously taking no damage is better than taking any damage, that is a given. Hexblade has features which reduce the amount of incoming damage, just Like Paladin and its subclasses which perform those functions equably.
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Watch DnD Shorts on youtube.
Chief Innovationist, Acquisitions Inc. The Series 2
Successfully completed the Tomb of Horrors module (as part of playing Tomb of Annihilation) with no party deaths!
Honestly, comparing class or subclass features on a 1 to 1 basis is probably not the best way to look at it. Classes are the sum of their parts, after all.
That said, Armor of Hexes is a nice ability but don't forget that as a 10th level ability, it should be nice. The limitations of the ability should also be considered. It's usable once per short rest and only if you have your Curse activated. By 14th level, it gets better but still, there are a lot of classes with protective abilities that are not as powerful but are always on. Again, it's just balance.
Fair point. The only thing is that Armor of Hexes is not once/short rest on its own: it has no restrictions except for the target having to be cursed. Otherwise you make a good point, which is exactly why I categorized this thread as subjective
Yes, thats why its so awesome! If you are really lucky, you might not take damage at all from your opponent!
I’m glad you see where I’m coming from. Also it guarantees without a doubt that all attacks have a 50% or less chance to hit. Still, the Hexblade is not “better” at any one feature than other classes. But, it does excel at being a generalist, with a particular shine in combat, right at level 1. The Bard has to wait till Level 3 to go College of Swords to get anything in combat.
I think everyone is suffering from a lack of understanding about Hexblade, especially at latter levels. Invocations play a part in weapon attacks with blade pact (as every warlock class does). With the lifedrinker invocation (lvl 12 - +1 charisma damage AGAIN on top of each hit), and improved pact weapon with thirsting blade that more than makes up for an extra attack at level 11 for fighter. Not to mention, that Hexblade's curse does +prof damage for each hit for a whole combat, not just one round of Nova from action surge, you're looking at +15 damage with every hit on a target with out even considering whatever concentration spell (which can be used as offense, defense, and support and would easily be better than indomitable). Add in Sharpshooter/Great weapon master and damn... at level 12...
Well technically 1 attack as you only have 1 reaction.
The hexblade can be one of the highest single target DPS classes in the game, the PAMlock is insane. Multiclass stuff can probably beat it, in one round a fighter can beat it, but over a fight I'm not sure on that.
I'm playing a Hexblade right now, I really like it, but... well this is an absurd discussion.
First, Armor of Hexes almost never comes up. This is not an "all the time thing" but is only applicable when your once/rest, one minute long ability is active on the thing you're fighting AND that thing uses attack rolls against you AND there's someone else there to lock down that Big Bad in melee combat.
If you want to play a melee fighter, part of the role is to keep the baddies off the squishy casters. Using your reaction on Armor of Hexes is NOT part of playing a melee fighter. A smart DM will leverage that Armor of Hexes roll as the battlefield control blunder that it is. It's a trap, don't use it. If a baddie wants to move past you, they must take the (potentially very painful) opportunity attack. Sacrificing an attack roll to get past you is a smart trade for the DM.
Maybe you're thinking a Hexblade should be more like a Rogue - only there to do damage. Well, then look at a Rogue's ability to avoid damage via Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and Cunning Action. A Hexblade has nowhere near that ability to avoid damage.
Further, this idea that you're "guaranteed" some special defense via this skill is just silly and wrong. A Shield spell is almost always better if you want to use your reaction on defense (and again, if you're a Hexblade, you really do not want to use your reaction on defense). There's this focus on the 50% number. Yes. You can spend your reaction and ONLY have a 50% chance to avoid a single attack roll. Very, very rarely is this worth it.
I play in a campaign with a Fighter. The fighter almost always does more damage than I do (and I'm tricked out, Lifedrinker, max CHA, annoying-ass Feats, the whole deal). In addition, the Fighter has a TON more HP than I do. He's a Fighter! I get into the fights faster, move around the battlefield better, and have some spells that can make a huge difference. It's not like I do a little damage either, together we're a meat grinder. It's a lot of fun, one of the most enjoyable casting fighter classes I've played.
It's no bard though.
I agree with most of your points however, the one thing a PAMlock (if you have elven heritage) has over the Fighter is the ability to combine Great Weapon Master with Elven Accuracy. The PAMlock has on demand advantage in the form of Devil Sight and Darkness during the early levels and Shadows of Moil a little later on. Against tougher enemies the Fighter may have to stop taking the -5 penalty thus greatly reducing their damage output while the PAMlock with their 3 rolls per attack don't really ever need to drop the -5 penalty. This is huge because every hit is an extra 15 more damage compared to a Fighter not using Great Weapon Master.