I don’t think anyone here who is arguing for warlocks knowing their pact spells has come up with a reason other than “other classes get it, why shouldn’t warlocks.” The whole point of having different classes is so that they have different feature that make characters distinct. Furthermore, I don’t think that clerics or land druids are OP op for having free spells (Paladins are kinda OP but Oath spells isn’t why) or that warlocks and wizards are underpowered because they don’t have that. There’s really no point for anything to change.
My point has been from the beginning that thematically and balance wise it makes zero sense that Clerics and Druids would have a greater number of spells available to use than a Warlock/Sorcerer/Wizard. Realistically I can come up with thematic reasons why ONLY wizards should get more spells but there is zero logic why clerics and druids would have more spells than a Warlock/Sorcerer/Wizard.
At least that I can see....
Unless the reason is just wizards of the coast like Druids and Clerics more than Warlocks/Sorcerers/Wizards lol....
I’m not going to argue anything lore-wise, because that is completely subjective, but my argument all along has been that warlocks don’t need extra spells known, because mechanically they trade in the ability to learn a lot of spells for Eldritch Blast. They’re meant to focus on damage, instead of versatility like a druid. And I don’t think sorcerers or wizard need any help either, they are powerful classes.
That is my opinion, of course, all of this is just opinions anyway, and I don’t feel like continuing this argument because it has gotten very circular.
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Rumors of my awesomeness have been greatly unexaggerated.
"It is our choices ... that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." — Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore.
About 50% of my brain power is devoted to thinking up eloquent speeches that I’ll probably never use.
I’m not going to argue anything lore-wise, because that is completely subjective, but my argument all along has been that warlocks don’t need extra spells known, because mechanically they trade in the ability to learn a lot of spells for Eldritch Blast. They’re meant to focus on damage, instead of versatility like a druid. And I don’t think sorcerers or wizard need any help either, they are powerful classes.
That is my opinion, of course, all of this is just opinions anyway, and I don’t feel like continuing this argument because it has gotten very circular.
First Off I will preface by saying- I argue because I am passionate about the game. I have zero animosity toward you good sir or madam.
Let me see if I have your premise straight...the class that the PHB describes as follows:
"seekers of the knowledge that lies hidden in the fabric of the multiverse"
"Through pacts made with mysterious beings.....unlock magical effects both subtle and spectacular"
"piece together arcane secrets"
"driven by an insatiable need for knowledge and power"
"thirst for knowledge and power can’t be slaked"
So with all of that...Warlocks said "You know what, just give me Eldritch Blast and I am good". That is your premise. They traded variety of spells for Eldritch Blast.....even with all the above descriptors that seems like the rational explanation ehh?
To me, the Warlock's magical choice early on is why they limit them mechanically. To oversimplify a choice diagram:
Potential career caster looks through all the choices, and thinks meh, nothing appeals. Charismatic, but no funky bloodline or ability to sing and dance.
No? None of that? Oh fine, you've got talent, and you bond well with others. You want to use that bond? So, you don't get all the cool spells, but you get a lot of power, some pretty cool spells, you don't squish like the sorcerer and the wizard, and bonus points, we give you... Eldritch stuff! It's like spells but they just automatically show up whenever you want them to! Some limitations apply, extra spell slots not included, please consult your contract for details. Thanks for your immortal soul... er time and effort!
Mechanically it's a lot like life: we all try to find a productive job or path. At the team meetings for the company/organization you work for, the Warlock is the person who has a few niche skills combined with some weird ass abilities no one else in the company has - they have an oddball title that no one else has (like director of alternative research and methods). They seem friendly enough, and do whatever it is they do well. They have won awards from organizations you've never heard of and a messy desk. But if you ask, "what's their deal? Where'd they come from? What exactly do they do?" No one else at the company really knows...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
To me, the Warlock's magical choice early on is why they limit them mechanically. To oversimplify a choice diagram:
Potential career caster looks through all the choices, and thinks meh, nothing appeals. Charismatic, but no funky bloodline or ability to sing and dance.
No? None of that? Oh fine, you've got talent, and you bond well with others. You want to use that bond? So, you don't get all the cool spells, but you get a lot of power, some pretty cool spells, you don't squish like the sorcerer and the wizard, and bonus points, we give you... Eldritch stuff! It's like spells but they just automatically show up whenever you want them to! Some limitations apply, extra spell slots not included, please consult your contract for details. Thanks for your immortal soul... er time and effort!
Mechanically it's a lot like life: we all try to find a productive job or path. At the team meetings for the company/organization you work for, the Warlock is the person who has a few niche skills combined with some weird ass abilities no one else in the company has - they have an oddball title that no one else has (like director of alternative research and methods). They seem friendly enough, and do whatever it is they do well. They have won awards from organizations you've never heard of and a messy desk. But if you ask, "what's their deal? Where'd they come from? What exactly do they do?" No one else at the company really knows...
To me, the Warlock's magical choice early on is why they limit them mechanically. To oversimplify a choice diagram:
Potential career caster looks through all the choices, and thinks meh, nothing appeals. Charismatic, but no funky bloodline or ability to sing and dance.
No? None of that? Oh fine, you've got talent, and you bond well with others. You want to use that bond? So, you don't get all the cool spells, but you get a lot of power, some pretty cool spells, you don't squish like the sorcerer and the wizard, and bonus points, we give you... Eldritch stuff! It's like spells but they just automatically show up whenever you want them to! Some limitations apply, extra spell slots not included, please consult your contract for details. Thanks for your immortal soul... er time and effort!
Mechanically it's a lot like life: we all try to find a productive job or path. At the team meetings for the company/organization you work for, the Warlock is the person who has a few niche skills combined with some weird ass abilities no one else in the company has - they have an oddball title that no one else has (like director of alternative research and methods). They seem friendly enough, and do whatever it is they do well. They have won awards from organizations you've never heard of and a messy desk. But if you ask, "what's their deal? Where'd they come from? What exactly do they do?" No one else at the company really knows...
To me, the Warlock's magical choice early on is why they limit them mechanically. To oversimplify a choice diagram:
Potential career caster looks through all the choices, and thinks meh, nothing appeals. Charismatic, but no funky bloodline or ability to sing and dance.
No? None of that? Oh fine, you've got talent, and you bond well with others. You want to use that bond? So, you don't get all the cool spells, but you get a lot of power, some pretty cool spells, you don't squish like the sorcerer and the wizard, and bonus points, we give you... Eldritch stuff! It's like spells but they just automatically show up whenever you want them to! Some limitations apply, extra spell slots not included, please consult your contract for details. Thanks for your immortal soul... er time and effort!
Mechanically it's a lot like life: we all try to find a productive job or path. At the team meetings for the company/organization you work for, the Warlock is the person who has a few niche skills combined with some weird ass abilities no one else in the company has - they have an oddball title that no one else has (like director of alternative research and methods). They seem friendly enough, and do whatever it is they do well. They have won awards from organizations you've never heard of and a messy desk. But if you ask, "what's their deal? Where'd they come from? What exactly do they do?" No one else at the company really knows...
This is great lol.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Rumors of my awesomeness have been greatly unexaggerated.
"It is our choices ... that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." — Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore.
About 50% of my brain power is devoted to thinking up eloquent speeches that I’ll probably never use.
Having played warlocks for a few campaigns, I am firmly under the opinion that the expanded spell list should just be bonus spells known, as warlocks have a low amount of spell slots and spells known anyway, with not much to compensate for it, other than their options to take a lot of cantrips and their semi-beefy health pool. And though that is quite good, cantrips don't always cut it. The bonus prepared spells for cleric domains are to represent the powers of the gods of that domain and help personalize clerics; why not warlocks? Most invocations which provide spells not from the warlock spell list require a spell slot, and those that provide at will casting like Armour of Shadows are few. i have played many warlocks, and out of all of them, the only one I found was not being overshadowed by other spellcasters was the Hexblade, since its melee capabilities were quite good. all the others were overshadowed as when the wizard or cleric was out of spell slots we always took a long rest, and even on short rests the wizard could recover some slots. I get that the ability to cast all your spells at the same level is semi-powerful, but the low amount of spells known means you lose out on a lot of the versatility that other spellcasters get.
May I add some fuel for thought, I have read through the 1st page of discussions and maybe this has already been addressed. I like the idea of the expanded spell list, however it does feel that with the smaller amount of spells known perhaps this might be an alternative. Let's say for example that you have a Warlock, your spells given to you by your patron are added together with your spells known giving you more spells. HOWEVER, you can only prepare so many spells per day. That way the number of spells being able to cast remains the same and doesn't cause imbalance in the game, plus then the Warlock has some versatility. That way every Warlock doesn't have to feel so locked in to "Eldritch Blast". This might give ways to expand upon a class that is great in many ways and the numerous invocations are fantastic! I just would like to give the Patrons of these Warlocks a little more sway then there subclass abilities. So you can really feel their powers in the spells they cast. What do you guys think?
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My point has been from the beginning that thematically and balance wise it makes zero sense that Clerics and Druids would have a greater number of spells available to use than a Warlock/Sorcerer/Wizard. Realistically I can come up with thematic reasons why ONLY wizards should get more spells but there is zero logic why clerics and druids would have more spells than a Warlock/Sorcerer/Wizard.
At least that I can see....
Unless the reason is just wizards of the coast like Druids and Clerics more than Warlocks/Sorcerers/Wizards lol....
Which I mean could be right....
I’m not going to argue anything lore-wise, because that is completely subjective, but my argument all along has been that warlocks don’t need extra spells known, because mechanically they trade in the ability to learn a lot of spells for Eldritch Blast. They’re meant to focus on damage, instead of versatility like a druid. And I don’t think sorcerers or wizard need any help either, they are powerful classes.
That is my opinion, of course, all of this is just opinions anyway, and I don’t feel like continuing this argument because it has gotten very circular.
Rumors of my awesomeness have been greatly unexaggerated.
"It is our choices ... that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." — Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore.
About 50% of my brain power is devoted to thinking up eloquent speeches that I’ll probably never use.
First Off I will preface by saying- I argue because I am passionate about the game. I have zero animosity toward you good sir or madam.
Let me see if I have your premise straight...the class that the PHB describes as follows:
"seekers of the knowledge that lies hidden in the fabric of the multiverse"
"Through pacts made with mysterious beings.....unlock magical effects both subtle and spectacular"
"piece together arcane secrets"
"driven by an insatiable need for knowledge and power"
"thirst for knowledge and power can’t be slaked"
So with all of that...Warlocks said "You know what, just give me Eldritch Blast and I am good". That is your premise. They traded variety of spells for Eldritch Blast.....even with all the above descriptors that seems like the rational explanation ehh?
To me, the Warlock's magical choice early on is why they limit them mechanically. To oversimplify a choice diagram:
Potential career caster looks through all the choices, and thinks meh, nothing appeals. Charismatic, but no funky bloodline or ability to sing and dance.
No? None of that? Oh fine, you've got talent, and you bond well with others. You want to use that bond? So, you don't get all the cool spells, but you get a lot of power, some pretty cool spells, you don't squish like the sorcerer and the wizard, and bonus points, we give you... Eldritch stuff! It's like spells but they just automatically show up whenever you want them to! Some limitations apply, extra spell slots not included, please consult your contract for details. Thanks for your immortal soul... er time and effort!
Mechanically it's a lot like life: we all try to find a productive job or path. At the team meetings for the company/organization you work for, the Warlock is the person who has a few niche skills combined with some weird ass abilities no one else in the company has - they have an oddball title that no one else has (like director of alternative research and methods). They seem friendly enough, and do whatever it is they do well. They have won awards from organizations you've never heard of and a messy desk. But if you ask, "what's their deal? Where'd they come from? What exactly do they do?" No one else at the company really knows...
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
This is golden, thank you.
You win the internet today. That's hilarious.
This is great lol.
Rumors of my awesomeness have been greatly unexaggerated.
"It is our choices ... that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." — Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore.
About 50% of my brain power is devoted to thinking up eloquent speeches that I’ll probably never use.
Thank you all for your kind words on my humor. It's appreciated. :)
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
Having played warlocks for a few campaigns, I am firmly under the opinion that the expanded spell list should just be bonus spells known, as warlocks have a low amount of spell slots and spells known anyway, with not much to compensate for it, other than their options to take a lot of cantrips and their semi-beefy health pool. And though that is quite good, cantrips don't always cut it. The bonus prepared spells for cleric domains are to represent the powers of the gods of that domain and help personalize clerics; why not warlocks? Most invocations which provide spells not from the warlock spell list require a spell slot, and those that provide at will casting like Armour of Shadows are few. i have played many warlocks, and out of all of them, the only one I found was not being overshadowed by other spellcasters was the Hexblade, since its melee capabilities were quite good. all the others were overshadowed as when the wizard or cleric was out of spell slots we always took a long rest, and even on short rests the wizard could recover some slots. I get that the ability to cast all your spells at the same level is semi-powerful, but the low amount of spells known means you lose out on a lot of the versatility that other spellcasters get.
May I add some fuel for thought, I have read through the 1st page of discussions and maybe this has already been addressed. I like the idea of the expanded spell list, however it does feel that with the smaller amount of spells known perhaps this might be an alternative. Let's say for example that you have a Warlock, your spells given to you by your patron are added together with your spells known giving you more spells. HOWEVER, you can only prepare so many spells per day. That way the number of spells being able to cast remains the same and doesn't cause imbalance in the game, plus then the Warlock has some versatility. That way every Warlock doesn't have to feel so locked in to "Eldritch Blast". This might give ways to expand upon a class that is great in many ways and the numerous invocations are fantastic! I just would like to give the Patrons of these Warlocks a little more sway then there subclass abilities. So you can really feel their powers in the spells they cast. What do you guys think?