So I wanted to create a character that basically thinks that she's a Cleric, but isn't one, either due to the Patron (intercepting) her first before she can become a cleric proper or doing a "no, me" when she prays to the god she worships, which I hope to have something interesting come out of it, story-wise.
I'd like to make a build that's a bit unconventional, so I'd like to try to avoid some of the usual "go-to's" that Warlocks usually take, like Eldritch Blast, for example. Maybe later on, if my character's story demands she knows or learns Eldritch Blast then I'm willing to pick it up, but I'd like to avoid it early on in her adventuring career while she doesn't know she's a Warlock.
I'm thinking of going Variant Human and taking Magic Initiate (Cleric) feat right off the bat to help with the lack of Cantrips and Spells Warlocks are given. I've chosen Guidance, Mending, and Purify Food and Drink as the spells given. I've chosen +1 in Charisma and Wisdom since I do need some Wisdom for those Cantrips that I picked up. My lvl 1 stats are as follows with point buy and the variant human points:
Level 2: Eldritch Invocations: Eldritch Sight, Armor of Shadows
1st Spell Level: Hellish Rebuke
Level 3: Pact boon: I'm thinking Pact of the Tome in order to get that extra spells for more versatility. I'd pick up Word of Radiance, Shape Water (or maybe any of the other shape element spells), and Toll the Dead.
Swap out Armor of Shadows with Book of Ancient Secrets to get Find Familiar and Detect Poison and Disease
Level 4: Not sure whether to take a feat or to get an ability increase. Probably Ability and increase Charisma.
Spells: Learn Chill Touch Cantrip and Flaming Sphere
Anyway, that's about as far as I've thought for early levels. Not sure what other spells or options would be good for a support/healing role
It looks like you’re building a warlock for a campaign that’s focused on intrigue. I’d consider Mask of Many Faces to go with your Deception and Persuasion skills instead of Armor of Shadows. I’d put some serious thought into Pact of the Chain for a familiar that can turn invisible at will.
If I was your DM I’d make your patron evil and opposed to the god who you think you’re worshiping and I wouldn’t tell you. I would let you discover this slowly as the campaign goes on.
For a Celestial Warlock, yes. I would consider pact of the chain with the invocation Gift of the Ever Living Ones. Any healing for you is at the maximum number on the dice. That is huge and it allows you to need less resources for you and more for your group.
Party composition matters. Is there a dedicated cleric, or wizard in your group? If no cleric, then you can just go full Celestial with chainpact. If no wizard, then you want to be a Tomelock to scoop the rituals.
Ah I see. Yes, there's no Cleric, so the main healing will be done by my character. Just to double-check that only applies to healing that I'm receiving from myself, right? Or does it apply from other sources? And it doesn't max out to others receiving my healing, correct?
As a side, what else can you do with Pact of the Chain feature that's a step up from regular Find Familiar spell?
You indicate that your party lacks for a cleric, and in my opinion, any party that lacks for cleric or arcane caster favors the Tomelock for their superior casting versatility. In particular, you can pick up ritual spells with the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation and that's huge. Clerics have ritual spells through level 6 (Forbiddance) and without a dedicated divine caster, you'll lack for these. Augury is also a nice low level out of combat spell. And you can still pick up find familiar, even if it's not as spiffy as the Chain lock familiars.
Btw, even if you don't take EB immediately, you may wish to slightly reskin it as holy blast, where it looks like beams if light and your patron lets you think it's holy magic. Maybe later on, your DM would let you create an invication that changes the damage type to radiant. I'm not saying this is something you need to right off, but it might be a way to make EB seem more divine.
Just my $.02
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
Correct. The Gift of the Ever Living Ones gives you the maximum healing on all dice applied to you only. It does not apply to other characters, but it does include healing dice from long rests. So it ensures you are more likely to be standing.
As a step up from the Find Familiar spell, you can get special familiars. Imagine a re-skinned celestial imp (which most DM's would allow it to be the same stat block but look angelic). Biggest things that does is it can do the Help action to give advantage on certain rolls, it is a perfect scout (invisibility, shape changing, flight), and it can attack. At lower levels its actually a good option. But also the imp has hands. It can also deliver touch spells from a distance (including your touch based healing).
If your party has a wizard, I'd pass on being a Tomelock (someone in your group needs to be a ritual caster, but a Wizard will make you a backseat version). If you are the defacto healer, chainlock gives you some fun options. and based on the backstory you mentioned; wouldn't an agent of your patron watching your every move make sense?
Is there an advantage for going chain over tome and just picking up Find Familiar with Tome and using Invisibility when I gain access to that?
The advantage is three of the Pact of the Chain familiars can turn invisible without you needing to use one of your few spell slots. Plus all four of them are intelligent.
You don't need Wisdom for your cantrips or Purify Food and Drink. The light and sacred flame spells you get from being a Celestial Warlock are keyed off Charisma, and there's no spellcasting requirements on the ones you want to take with Magic Initiate. Guidance is probably one of the best cantrips in the game for the ever present "+D4 of you can do the thing".
I would start with stats: Str 8 Dex 16 Con 13 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 16
For me the on demand Mage Armor (or Studded Leather +1) justifies the use of an invocation slot. It's armor when you need it.
Pact of the Tome with the Book of Ancient Secrets is likely the best casting version of the Warlock, and is the way I'd go (although my level 3 invocations would be Armor of Shadows and Book of Ancient Secrets). Find Familiar as a ritual spell is almost as good as the Pact of the Chain version.
The Chill Touch cantrip, although not as good as Eldritch Blast, does tap into the necromantic energies that a lot of Cleric spells do.
Look to pick up Resilient (Constitution) to bump up your Constitution and give yourself proficiency with Con saving throws to help with concentration checks.
You indicate that your party lacks for a cleric, and in my opinion, any party that lacks for cleric or arcane caster favors the Tomelock for their superior casting versatility. In particular, you can pick up ritual spells with the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation and that's huge. Clerics have ritual spells through level 6 (Forbiddance) and without a dedicated divine caster, you'll lack for these. Augury is also a nice low level out of combat spell. And you can still pick up find familiar, even if it's not as spiffy as the Chain lock familiars.
Btw, even if you don't take EB immediately, you may wish to slightly reskin it as holy blast, where it looks like beams if light and your patron lets you think it's holy magic. Maybe later on, your DM would let you create an invication that changes the damage type to radiant. I'm not saying this is something you need to right off, but it might be a way to make EB seem more divine.
Just my $.02
Yeah, that's what I was thinking when I initially made my character.
It's a small group. we have my character, a barbarian, and a rogue, and I don't think he's going arcane. Maybe if our barbarian went paladin maybe it would help? But I don't want to ask other players to change their classes just because I can't pull my weight around.
Paladins are great, and laying on hands is good, but yeah you're the healer. So I'd definitely go pact of the tome in a low magic party. The big win: identify as a ritual. You'll want every magic item you can get. Huge boost.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
I can understand that you don't want to use EB, but in a party of three with you as dedicated healer that would be making a difficult situation even more so. Most of your spells, not cantrips, spells will have to be used from the cleric list because you will be the defacto cleric. So things like Cure Wounds, Lesser Restoration and later changing that out for Greater Restoration, and Revivify will be the spells you will have to go for. By not taking the firepower offered by EB you will be crippling everybody. But if everyone is okay with that go for it. I wouldn't.
Do you think I can have my DM re-flavor Eldritch Blast to be radiant damage and change the name or something?
I would think that would be an invocation, unless your damage type is only radiant as a straight swap. See if your DM would allow it. Later on, it could be an invocation to add damage type. But there's no reason your patron can't start out with EB looking like radiant damage and then pick up a Homebrew invocation later.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
I can understand that you don't want to use EB, but in a party of three with you as dedicated healer that would be making a difficult situation even more so. Most of your spells, not cantrips, spells will have to be used from the cleric list because you will be the defacto cleric. So things like Cure Wounds, Lesser Restoration and later changing that out for Greater Restoration, and Revivify will be the spells you will have to go for. By not taking the firepower offered by EB you will be crippling everybody. But if everyone is okay with that go for it. I wouldn't.
Celestial Pact Warlocks gain Sacred Flame at 1st level and they can add their Charisma modifier to it’s damage at 6th level though and that isn’t much less powerful than Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast is, so it’s not that much of a hinderance. It’s only a little bit weaker so you’ll be fine.
I don't see where it says in Sacred Flame where it adds your Charisma to the damage. Is that an invocation to add that to Sacred Flame like with Eldritch Blast or something?
No, Celestial Warlocks gain the Radiant Soul ability at level 6 that allows them to add their charisma modifier to one damage roll of a radiant or fire spell each casting.
I can understand that you don't want to use EB, but in a party of three with you as dedicated healer that would be making a difficult situation even more so. Most of your spells, not cantrips, spells will have to be used from the cleric list because you will be the defacto cleric. So things like Cure Wounds, Lesser Restoration and later changing that out for Greater Restoration, and Revivify will be the spells you will have to go for. By not taking the firepower offered by EB you will be crippling everybody. But if everyone is okay with that go for it. I wouldn't.
Celestial Pact Warlocks gain Sacred Flame at 1st level and they can add their Charisma modifier to it’s damage at 6th level though and that isn’t much less powerful than Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast is, so it’s not that much of a hinderance. It’s only a little bit weaker so you’ll be fine.
Sacred Flame has a save, has only a 60 ft range, the max crit damage is not in the same league, it's only on one target and you can't get advantage on it. It's not completely bad but it just doesn't compare. It's a good secondary cantrip for when your target has a worse dex save than it has AC. It is better than flaming sphere that's a fact.
So I wanted to create a character that basically thinks that she's a Cleric, but isn't one, either due to the Patron (intercepting) her first before she can become a cleric proper or doing a "no, me" when she prays to the god she worships, which I hope to have something interesting come out of it, story-wise.
I'd like to make a build that's a bit unconventional, so I'd like to try to avoid some of the usual "go-to's" that Warlocks usually take, like Eldritch Blast, for example. Maybe later on, if my character's story demands she knows or learns Eldritch Blast then I'm willing to pick it up, but I'd like to avoid it early on in her adventuring career while she doesn't know she's a Warlock.
I'm thinking of going Variant Human and taking Magic Initiate (Cleric) feat right off the bat to help with the lack of Cantrips and Spells Warlocks are given. I've chosen Guidance, Mending, and Purify Food and Drink as the spells given. I've chosen +1 in Charisma and Wisdom since I do need some Wisdom for those Cantrips that I picked up. My lvl 1 stats are as follows with point buy and the variant human points:
Strength: 8
Dexterity: 12
Constitution: 13
Intelligence: 12
Wisdom: 13 +1
Charisma: 15 +1
Skills: Religion, History, Deception (racial), Persuasion (Noble), Arcana (Noble)
Cantrips: Mage hand, Minor Illusion, Guidance (Cleric Initiate), Mending (Cleric Initiate), Light (Pact), Sacred Flame (Pact)
1st spell level: Cure Wounds, Guiding Bolt, Purify Food and Drink (Cleric Initiate)
Level 2: Eldritch Invocations: Eldritch Sight, Armor of Shadows
1st Spell Level: Hellish Rebuke
Level 3: Pact boon: I'm thinking Pact of the Tome in order to get that extra spells for more versatility. I'd pick up Word of Radiance, Shape Water (or maybe any of the other shape element spells), and Toll the Dead.
Swap out Armor of Shadows with Book of Ancient Secrets to get Find Familiar and Detect Poison and Disease
Level 4: Not sure whether to take a feat or to get an ability increase. Probably Ability and increase Charisma.
Spells: Learn Chill Touch Cantrip and Flaming Sphere
Anyway, that's about as far as I've thought for early levels. Not sure what other spells or options would be good for a support/healing role
It looks like you’re building a warlock for a campaign that’s focused on intrigue. I’d consider Mask of Many Faces to go with your Deception and Persuasion skills instead of Armor of Shadows. I’d put some serious thought into Pact of the Chain for a familiar that can turn invisible at will.
If I was your DM I’d make your patron evil and opposed to the god who you think you’re worshiping and I wouldn’t tell you. I would let you discover this slowly as the campaign goes on.
Professional computer geek
Is there an advantage for going chain over tome and just picking up Find Familiar with Tome and using Invisibility when I gain access to that?
For a Celestial Warlock, yes. I would consider pact of the chain with the invocation Gift of the Ever Living Ones. Any healing for you is at the maximum number on the dice. That is huge and it allows you to need less resources for you and more for your group.
Party composition matters. Is there a dedicated cleric, or wizard in your group? If no cleric, then you can just go full Celestial with chainpact. If no wizard, then you want to be a Tomelock to scoop the rituals.
Ah I see. Yes, there's no Cleric, so the main healing will be done by my character. Just to double-check that only applies to healing that I'm receiving from myself, right? Or does it apply from other sources? And it doesn't max out to others receiving my healing, correct?
As a side, what else can you do with Pact of the Chain feature that's a step up from regular Find Familiar spell?
You indicate that your party lacks for a cleric, and in my opinion, any party that lacks for cleric or arcane caster favors the Tomelock for their superior casting versatility. In particular, you can pick up ritual spells with the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation and that's huge. Clerics have ritual spells through level 6 (Forbiddance) and without a dedicated divine caster, you'll lack for these. Augury is also a nice low level out of combat spell. And you can still pick up find familiar, even if it's not as spiffy as the Chain lock familiars.
Btw, even if you don't take EB immediately, you may wish to slightly reskin it as holy blast, where it looks like beams if light and your patron lets you think it's holy magic. Maybe later on, your DM would let you create an invication that changes the damage type to radiant. I'm not saying this is something you need to right off, but it might be a way to make EB seem more divine.
Just my $.02
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
Correct. The Gift of the Ever Living Ones gives you the maximum healing on all dice applied to you only. It does not apply to other characters, but it does include healing dice from long rests. So it ensures you are more likely to be standing.
As a step up from the Find Familiar spell, you can get special familiars. Imagine a re-skinned celestial imp (which most DM's would allow it to be the same stat block but look angelic). Biggest things that does is it can do the Help action to give advantage on certain rolls, it is a perfect scout (invisibility, shape changing, flight), and it can attack. At lower levels its actually a good option. But also the imp has hands. It can also deliver touch spells from a distance (including your touch based healing).
If your party has a wizard, I'd pass on being a Tomelock (someone in your group needs to be a ritual caster, but a Wizard will make you a backseat version). If you are the defacto healer, chainlock gives you some fun options. and based on the backstory you mentioned; wouldn't an agent of your patron watching your every move make sense?
The advantage is three of the Pact of the Chain familiars can turn invisible without you needing to use one of your few spell slots. Plus all four of them are intelligent.
Professional computer geek
You don't need Wisdom for your cantrips or Purify Food and Drink. The light and sacred flame spells you get from being a Celestial Warlock are keyed off Charisma, and there's no spellcasting requirements on the ones you want to take with Magic Initiate. Guidance is probably one of the best cantrips in the game for the ever present "+D4 of you can do the thing".
I would start with stats:
Str 8
Dex 16
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 16
For me the on demand Mage Armor (or Studded Leather +1) justifies the use of an invocation slot. It's armor when you need it.
Pact of the Tome with the Book of Ancient Secrets is likely the best casting version of the Warlock, and is the way I'd go (although my level 3 invocations would be Armor of Shadows and Book of Ancient Secrets). Find Familiar as a ritual spell is almost as good as the Pact of the Chain version.
The Chill Touch cantrip, although not as good as Eldritch Blast, does tap into the necromantic energies that a lot of Cleric spells do.
Look to pick up Resilient (Constitution) to bump up your Constitution and give yourself proficiency with Con saving throws to help with concentration checks.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking when I initially made my character.
It's a small group. we have my character, a barbarian, and a rogue, and I don't think he's going arcane. Maybe if our barbarian went paladin maybe it would help? But I don't want to ask other players to change their classes just because I can't pull my weight around.
Paladins are great, and laying on hands is good, but yeah you're the healer. So I'd definitely go pact of the tome in a low magic party. The big win: identify as a ritual. You'll want every magic item you can get. Huge boost.
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
I can understand that you don't want to use EB, but in a party of three with you as dedicated healer that would be making a difficult situation even more so. Most of your spells, not cantrips, spells will have to be used from the cleric list because you will be the defacto cleric. So things like Cure Wounds, Lesser Restoration and later changing that out for Greater Restoration, and Revivify will be the spells you will have to go for. By not taking the firepower offered by EB you will be crippling everybody. But if everyone is okay with that go for it. I wouldn't.
Do you think I can have my DM re-flavor Eldritch Blast to be radiant damage and change the name or something?
I would think that would be an invocation, unless your damage type is only radiant as a straight swap. See if your DM would allow it. Later on, it could be an invocation to add damage type. But there's no reason your patron can't start out with EB looking like radiant damage and then pick up a Homebrew invocation later.
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
Celestial Pact Warlocks gain Sacred Flame at 1st level and they can add their Charisma modifier to it’s damage at 6th level though and that isn’t much less powerful than Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast is, so it’s not that much of a hinderance. It’s only a little bit weaker so you’ll be fine.
Professional computer geek
At level 6 Eldritch Blast does 2(D10+Cha) damage, and Sacred Flame does 2D8+Cha.
Assuming Cha = +4 that's an average of 19 versus 13. Eldritch Blast does have the chance of doing critical damage though.
I don't see where it says in Sacred Flame where it adds your Charisma to the damage. Is that an invocation to add that to Sacred Flame like with Eldritch Blast or something?
No, Celestial Warlocks gain the Radiant Soul ability at level 6 that allows them to add their charisma modifier to one damage roll of a radiant or fire spell each casting.
Sacred Flame has a save, has only a 60 ft range, the max crit damage is not in the same league, it's only on one target and you can't get advantage on it. It's not completely bad but it just doesn't compare. It's a good secondary cantrip for when your target has a worse dex save than it has AC. It is better than flaming sphere that's a fact.
You make a compelling argument there