I've been wondering recently: What happens if a warlock loses its patron, either by breaking ties with it or due to the patron being killed.
The way I see it, there are three options:
1) The warlock's magic comes from the patron and must be renewed by the patron, without a patron you lose all your spells, find a new class.
2) The warlock needs a patron to gain new power, but can maintain their current powers without a patron. Without a patron you can no longer level up in Warlock, but you don't lose the powers you already have.
3) The patron has shown you how to access the power, but you don't need them after the initial contact. Without a patron you can continue to level up in Warlock, with new abilities coming from your knowledge of how to better use the power your patron has already given you.
Is there a canon answer to this, either in the books or through Sage Advice? If not, what are your thoughts? Thanks!
4) Your power comes from your patron. You lose all your warlock class features except hit points, hit dice, proficiencies, and ASIs/feats until you find a new patron of the same type, at which point you can negotiate to get to regain all your lost warlock powers.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
All could apply for different warlocks. Depending on what the pact entails exactly. Someone who traded their soul might have gotten the whole package for good, while someone who only does favors for the patron now and again has the powers on lease. A third one is getting steadily seduced and corrupted, they have their current powers forever but no way to advance further.
I'd go with whatever makes the most sense for the situation and the character.
It's worth considering that this would be a very remote chance - fiends are difficult to permanently kill, fey are notoriously slippery, and the Great Old One didn't get to be old by being snuffed out by some fool. More likely this powerful being might be imprisoned or otherwise cut off, in which case the Warlock's powers may wane until s/he can determine some way to help release the patron. If the patron is permanently incapacitated, they may have allies or underlings (or foes!) who might sweep in and take up all of the patron's contracts.
4) Your power comes from your patron. You lose all your warlock class features except hit points, hit dice, proficiencies, and ASIs/feats until you find a new patron of the same type, at which point you can negotiate to get to regain all your lost warlock powers.
I'd probably do similarly, but with one significant difference; Instead of losing all features of the class, you just wouldn't gain new ones until you found a new patron (though I'd allow things that you already have to improve as you keep leveling, a la HP, hit dice, proficiency bonus, and number/type of spell slots)
Basically, treat each named class feature (other than ability score increase) as a specific gift from a patron - but once given, they are wholly the character's.
And not only is there not an official answer on this, I think there should intentionally not be - much more interesting for each group to come up with their own that fits their particular style and preferences, and it doesn't give jerk DMs or players an avenue to grief another player and blame it on the rules rather than their being a jerk.
They would definitely lose their Arcanum spells. Probably keep all readied uncast higher level spells, but not get them renewed after being cast.
DM might allow them to maintain normal spells, but not invocations- or conversely keep their invocations but lose intermediate level spells. Or some negotiable balance between- like a point system, but you would only be able to keep about half of your prior total.
If killed, then some similar sphere patrons might step in - at least for certain races and alignments... or fool isolated warlocks with waning powers to cling to their offered aid and the perception or assumption of who they might or might not be. Also, some peers or lieutenant powerful servants may be on the verge of stepping up into a head position- i.e. ancient powerful pit fiends (under a former arch devil) or balor/goristo demons (under a former demon prince) or solars or ancient dragons, kirin, or other type of powerful (semi) supernatural beings- any of the upper generals and special intermediaries that served the patron. Death of the upper level denizens of a plane creates a vacuum for one of the next level down, that are strong enough, to evolve into and fill- like the modrons, could similarly apply to demon, devils, etc.
1-2(maybe 3rd) level spells shouldn't be lost - old AD&D rules were that for priests that 1-2 level spells were received without contact with deities, 3-5 were from intermediary agents, and 6-7th spells were received direct from the deity himself. So on a 9 level spell tier you could make it 1-3 needs no outside power and are considered on a larger scale like cantrips or rituals, that 4-6 are mid level spells and can be gained thru intermediaries, and that 7-9 are from divine level patron/deity.
I would probably make it more of a pyramid level breakdown and give more lower level spells (1-4self, 5-7intermed, 8-9patron or maybe 1-5self, 6-8intermed, and 9patron) and make it negotiable for what mid level spells and Arcanum they might be able to tradeoff and maintain without finding a new patron. Possibly make them longer to cast, cause HP damage to caster or vulnerability to certain elements, or require addition or costly materials. Spells could require higher level slots to cast at minimum level, or maybe unable to cast at higher than minimum level. Intermediaries could be able to grant the level of intermed spells that DM agrees upon- and possibly a limited number of 8-9th level spells.
Casting ability could gradually taper off over time, rather than all at once. With restrictions and additional costs, some abilities could be maintained. An alternate Patron could grant intermediate level spells and abilities, until you perform great deeds or missions to prove yourself and get full upper level former abilities (or different new abilities accordingly). Since 6-9th level are arcanums granted by patron, none would be regained after current held ones are cast. I would likely half their spell slots and invocations (or only allow invocations up to half their level), or at least take away 5th level spell slots, or take 1 slot of each spell level- or at worst half their spell slots for each level.
Best case scenario for the character would be that some slightly lesser power serving his former Patron after some time steps up and contacts the character, offering to maintains all his abilities short of arcanums. As they consolidate power, and gain more warlocks and other followers, they would become powerful enough to grant progressively higher arcanums, and to a greater number of warlocks. In the meantime, preferred status of warlocks to the new fledgling Patron would get arcanums before other warlocks. The new Patron would be struggling against other challengers as well, and could be changed to wildly varying degree mentally, emotionally, and physically by evolving or metamorphing into his new position.
It would seem fair to allow a path to progressively restore full (or alternate) abilities to the warlock over the next 2-3 levels of advancement- and possibly have to earn rank in some equivalent Faction for his new Patron.
I always like players and DM negotiating from some moderate position and tailoring it a bit- instead of everything being exactly the same.
I like #2 the best, but that's because losing a patron sort of happened to me once. During the final battle of my first 5e campaign, we killed the goddess of the DM's world who had been corrupted. This allowed my Old One patron to enter the world, along with the corruption of the goddess. The Darkness and the Presence (my patron) fought each other, with nobody other than the party's wizard (who was Shapechanged into an Adult Dragon with blindsight at the time) able to see it. The Darkness won, but was weakened t the point where it had stats and could be killed. 50 hp. It had obscenely high AC, but the wizard unleashed his breath weapon and one shot it. And so there we were, in an empty, timeless void, as the battle between the Darkness and the Presence had destroyed everything in the world except for the goddess's secure temple we fought her in. Shortly after, she was reborn, and the campaign ended.
As for how to handle this happening in a campaign, here are a few ways you could lose a Patron, assuming the DM would like to go that route: - Alignment shift; if your Patron is either a Celestial (almost certainly coming soon in Xanathar's Guide) or a Fiend and they realize they cannot bring you over to their point of view, they might decide to dump you. It's not them, sweety, it's you. - You die and are resurrected. Depending on who your patron is and how you come back, this may mean you lose contact with them. Going with the above, if an angel were to cast Raise Dead on a fiend warlock, I can see that resulting in severance. - You realize your pact was a terrible idea (assuming you entered into it willingly) and undertake a quest to be free of it. This may mean turning your character into an NPC when it is done. - You make a pact with a new entity. This can simply mean rewriting the lore of your patron, or it can mean accepting an entirely new subclass.
But, for solutions to a lost patron, here are a few ideas I just thought up. - A while ago, my party had our ranger die in a temple to a FR nature goddess. After we restored the temple, the DM texted a question to the player, requested that he not share the text, and asked for a yes or no answer. When he decided on yes, the goddess's avatar (a Unicorn) appeared and cast Raise Dead on him. As we left, she spoke "remember your oath" in Sylvan. If it had been my warlock who died instead of the ranger, that would have been a good time for the DM to declare that I had a new patron. Fey or Celestial would have worked with her. - The magic of your patron lingers inside your spirit, and without the patron to regulate it, your Warlock levels become Wild Mage sorcerer levels. You retain your weapon and armor proficiency, you must reroll your hitpoints (the change was exhausting?), and you must pick new spells. When possible, the new spells should be ones you already knew. Sounds good thematically for an Old One. - Combining both of the above two together, you become a Favored Soul. Would require some shoehorning. - If you lost you patron as a result of an alignment issue, you gain a new one based on a more appropriate alignment. Your new patron is drawn to you for the skill you've already built up in mastering the more secretive arcane arts. - If you lost a patron as a result of dying and being reborn, your spirit comes into contact with the Raven Queen. Obviously, this would preferably be something the DM clears with the player first.
I always like players and DM negotiating from some moderate position and tailoring it a bit- instead of everything being exactly the same.
This. I think the answer is whatever creates a fair challenge and/or cool story. Does your player know where he'd go from there? Does he want to return to his patron or find a new one? Maybe he'd just switch classes (friend was a fiend pact who ended up killing his patron devil and became a paladin, and a GOO pact could easily convert to a wizard). Maybe they lose their power from their patron itself, but can find a relic that retains some of their other worldly power. Get creative and communicate with your player.
This was actually a key plot point for my character. He came from a family that sold their souls (past and future) to a devil (which one is yet unknown to me), and each child underwent a ceremony where their souls were removed and put into soulstones at the family vault (with an invocation circle for said devil to collect whenever he wishes). My character rejected this path, ran away, and sought a method to regain his soul. During our quests he rescued a sorcerer (another PC) who had a book of immense, unspeakable magics that he was (not supposed to be) studding. As it turns out there was a spell in there to regain a soul--or at least, pull it from one soulstone to another. I found the necessary reagents, lost a lot of blood, and the roll for the ritual didn't kill me so boom! I had my soul!
But given the source of the ritual, my character's family would be able to do the same within 30 days. As it happened we'd worked with the dragons once and one respected my skills and capabilities as a fighter. In exchange for keeping my soul safe and finding a way to rebind it to me permanently, I agreed to serve them for 10 years. And yes, I knew there were other strings attached, but that's part of roleplaying and having to deal with consequences. So I lost my demonic warlock capabilities, but the infusion of power protecting my soul gave me insight into a more positive aspect of being a warlock, and a way to really hurt the beings of hell.
In terms of actual character progression, he started with 3 levels of Warlock (Fiend Pact) then jumped to Fighter (Eldritch Knight) for 7 levels. When he regained his soul, he retained all of his Fiend capabilities (spells, invocations), but could no longer level up in Warlock. When the new deal was made, his three levels of Warlock became Celestial (then Undying Light) and started leveling up in that subclass. My DM said to restructure Invocations (they remained the same) and spells--doubly important since SCAG came out and green-flame blade was perfect for his fighting style. Essentially, it was a soft reset for his Warlock subclass.
I did ask what would happen at the end of the contract, would he keep the powers or revert to a different class (i.e., cleric, favored soul, pure fighter); and he said it would depend on the story; meaning there's a good chance whatever is empowering me has a plan that would offer options for the answer as the game continued. But it was an excellent story for my character, along with a big question of "what next" when he finally succeeded in his goal and the repercussions of losing/gaining patrons.
I was just wondering this myself from a DM standpoint. (Trying to be prepared for all eventual outcomes.)
I think that the patron is often viewed as a source of power. -- They are a supremely powerful being. Sometimes even godlike. I would think that these beings use Warlocks as extensions of their own will. Using these people as a way to fulfill plans and forward goals.
By this extension of thought; the Warlock is likely someone of extraordinary ability. Afterall, how did they come in contact with their patron in the first place? This leads me to believe that they have a natural talent and that the patron exploits that talent. Further, I think the patron provides only a small spark of power that ignites the flame buried within the caster. Making Warlocks unlearned or undiscovered Sorcerers/Sorceresses.
This would allow the patron to eventually exploit their natural talent without needing to expend any of their own power. Afterall, once the Warlock learns to harness magic at will, they might still think that the ability comes from their Patron. And if the godlike being fails to correct their pupil, they will retain their bond and the Warlock will continue to take orders rather than risk losing their power.
All of these are great. I have a different line of thought on Pact Magic, based on a line from the Old One pact. " The Great Old One might be unaware of your existence..." I like the idea of stolen or borrowed power as an option. So while the magic is "Pact Magic" all that is a game construct to highlight how it is different from Sorcery or Wizardary or Divine. I don't see that a deal is a requirement. Your patron might have taught you how to use it as part of the pact, but the pact doesn't power it. There is a similar view for clerics at one point where a philosophy was the source of your power, not a deity (this is probably from Eberron, where the gods are remote.)
I like this as a player, as it opens up options. How would a patron reacted to that mortal leech with the temerity to steal power. Or perhaps you found the power from an old one, but you can't yet understand it or what it wants yet. Or you've found out how to tap into fey ley lines. It allows for cases without an overt master, but allows for allows for story hooks and consequences.
On the DM side; I always hated to deal with fallen paladins and taking their power away and so I don't like it with Warlocks. This probably has to do with 1st editions rules in hands of us young ones as using the rulebook as a cudgel; "Hey, how can I may our paladin fall this week" immaturity. And it carries over I guess because people, unless they are prepared for a storyline of loss don't like sudden surprises. So I'm never a can of "you lose the power you have already invested in" It can make a great story; but I've seen unintended bitter consequences.
I do like the idea of not advancing farther into the class, until you have found a new patron/made nice with your patron by comparison. You keep what you have, and now you have an interesting choice; move on somewhere else or take steps to move upwards. You can also use this as a tool for any warlock as the pact masters version of training. "Oh you want the book of shadows? It can be yours soon, and I will teach you it. But first, you must find the mystic candles held by priest Macguffin!"
At around 2:10 and 3:45 MM states that the power once given can't be taken back. Given that most patrons are typically powerful immortal beings, granting power they can't revoke to a mortal for a few hundred years is largely inconsequential.
I'm interested in it as a story point for an NPC, so it's pretty much the first option, that I could really do whatever. I was just wondering if anyone knew of an official rule regarding it, or what thoughts people might have for other options.
Something I'm doing in curse of strahd is trying to undo a fiend pact on my soul that strahd himself somehow obtained the contract to. I'm technically multiclass in paladin, but every time I meet certain conditions (determine by my DM) he let's me undo a warlock level and apply it to paladin, making it so that my soul is being won back by my god as the fiend's work (and now Strahd's) in me becomes undone. I like how we're handling it, as it's not hobbling my character while still making me have to roleplay carefully in order to earn the redemption.
I'm interested in it as a story point for an NPC, so it's pretty much the first option, that I could really do whatever. I was just wondering if anyone knew of an official rule regarding it, or what thoughts people might have for other options.
As swamp_slug said. Myerls said the intent of the designers was that it can't be revoked. From a game design perspective I agree with this, because otherwise it messes with Player Agency. No one likes having their hands tied, unless they consent to have someone tie there hands. Wow, that metaphor got away with me and sounds way more kinky than I intended, but works.
I know this forum is full of people talking about how a Paladin/Cleric/Warlock/Druid "must/should" act... I'm one to side with Player Agency of a character instead of what someone else thinks the character "should be".
If you need/want an explanation. The "deal" was made the bargain paid for and the power is currently in mystical escrow. So even if the patron wanted to revoke the power they can't... I personally think it would be amusing to make an Arch Fey regret her decision for make a bargain.
While I do like the idea of being able to change your subclass... gives the player agency and can feed the DM and party story hooks. Maybe they just don't like their subclass, but they don't want to make a new character that is another Fighter. Maybe they were a Great Weapon Master, but they found The Sun Blade, and want to be Sword and Board. Do you want to make changing that a story point? There are a lot of rules in AL play I don't like, the one I love is getting to change out anything in your character up to level 5. Or for a big enough plot change possibly a whole class. in The Gamers 2: Dorkness Rising a Goddess replaces the Sorcereress' levels with Cleric levels as a boon.
That said you're looking for an plot idea for an NPC... so official rules can be thrown out the window because "balance" isn't an issue, it's easier to Rule of Cool.
The Warlock has grown strong enough to force the connection, instead of the patron giving it to warlock, the warlock now takes it from the patron, making it an active seeking enemy.
I imagine this being possible because the warlock actually strengthens his soul soul through the connection, and in order to even be able to receive the gifts the warlock needs it. (my explanation as to why friendly patrons don't just give the warlock lvl 20 stuff to begin with, the soul needs to be strong enough to channel the power) (Also: Soul = Charisma = The ability to influence other souls and the world => The connection is a derivative/usage of the patrons ability to influence other souls a.k.a. it's charisma)
So I've been having a read here and think a lot of the answers are kinda relevant to my situation but also kinda not.
My character died while in the possession of a Delkyr (Did not know it was Delkyr until it was too late, also Eberon campaign) artifact that was embedded in his hand, when he died he heard a voice talking to him offering him another chance which he accepted, this then transformed my character and made him semi under this entities control, the artifact then became part of my characters face (Very much like the millennium eye but unable to remove), last session we found a very strong anti magic field and my character lost connection with the Patron and the artifact for the first time looked removable.
I grabbed one of the part and got them to try and remove it to which we discovered it was attached like it was stitched in by something living, at this point it was forcibly removed instantly killing my character (again) so it seems like the Patron was directly linked tot he artifact and was keeping my character alive, we are about to reincarnate him (hopefully) but I am not sure where that would leave me with my Warlock, my character is a Dhakaani goblin who hates nothing more than the Delkyr so there is no way he would want to go back to being under their control.
What I am trying to work out is whether or not I would straight up lose the Warlock class as my character would have a completely new body and no long have the artifact in him but also doesn't want to be connected to this patron at all or if something else would/could happen.
TLDR: My Dhakaani Goblin got taken over by Delkyr when he died and was brought back via Delkyr artifact, my goblin hates Delkyr, found a way to cut the link by removing artifact but it killed my goblin (again), goblin is being reincarnated into a new body, would he still be a warlock or just lose the warlock ability and put the levels back into his primary class?
I've been wondering recently: What happens if a warlock loses its patron, either by breaking ties with it or due to the patron being killed.
The way I see it, there are three options:
1) The warlock's magic comes from the patron and must be renewed by the patron, without a patron you lose all your spells, find a new class.
2) The warlock needs a patron to gain new power, but can maintain their current powers without a patron. Without a patron you can no longer level up in Warlock, but you don't lose the powers you already have.
3) The patron has shown you how to access the power, but you don't need them after the initial contact. Without a patron you can continue to level up in Warlock, with new abilities coming from your knowledge of how to better use the power your patron has already given you.
Is there a canon answer to this, either in the books or through Sage Advice? If not, what are your thoughts? Thanks!
I know of no official answer.
My answer would be:
4) Your power comes from your patron. You lose all your warlock class features except hit points, hit dice, proficiencies, and ASIs/feats until you find a new patron of the same type, at which point you can negotiate to get to regain all your lost warlock powers.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
All could apply for different warlocks. Depending on what the pact entails exactly. Someone who traded their soul might have gotten the whole package for good, while someone who only does favors for the patron now and again has the powers on lease. A third one is getting steadily seduced and corrupted, they have their current powers forever but no way to advance further.
I'd go with whatever makes the most sense for the situation and the character.
It's worth considering that this would be a very remote chance - fiends are difficult to permanently kill, fey are notoriously slippery, and the Great Old One didn't get to be old by being snuffed out by some fool. More likely this powerful being might be imprisoned or otherwise cut off, in which case the Warlock's powers may wane until s/he can determine some way to help release the patron. If the patron is permanently incapacitated, they may have allies or underlings (or foes!) who might sweep in and take up all of the patron's contracts.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
They would definitely lose their Arcanum spells. Probably keep all readied uncast higher level spells, but not get them renewed after being cast.
DM might allow them to maintain normal spells, but not invocations- or conversely keep their invocations but lose intermediate level spells. Or some negotiable balance between- like a point system, but you would only be able to keep about half of your prior total.
If killed, then some similar sphere patrons might step in - at least for certain races and alignments... or fool isolated warlocks with waning powers to cling to their offered aid and the perception or assumption of who they might or might not be. Also, some peers or lieutenant powerful servants may be on the verge of stepping up into a head position- i.e. ancient powerful pit fiends (under a former arch devil) or balor/goristo demons (under a former demon prince) or solars or ancient dragons, kirin, or other type of powerful (semi) supernatural beings- any of the upper generals and special intermediaries that served the patron. Death of the upper level denizens of a plane creates a vacuum for one of the next level down, that are strong enough, to evolve into and fill- like the modrons, could similarly apply to demon, devils, etc.
1-2(maybe 3rd) level spells shouldn't be lost - old AD&D rules were that for priests that 1-2 level spells were received without contact with deities, 3-5 were from intermediary agents, and 6-7th spells were received direct from the deity himself. So on a 9 level spell tier you could make it 1-3 needs no outside power and are considered on a larger scale like cantrips or rituals, that 4-6 are mid level spells and can be gained thru intermediaries, and that 7-9 are from divine level patron/deity.
I would probably make it more of a pyramid level breakdown and give more lower level spells (1-4self, 5-7intermed, 8-9patron or maybe 1-5self, 6-8intermed, and 9patron) and make it negotiable for what mid level spells and Arcanum they might be able to tradeoff and maintain without finding a new patron. Possibly make them longer to cast, cause HP damage to caster or vulnerability to certain elements, or require addition or costly materials. Spells could require higher level slots to cast at minimum level, or maybe unable to cast at higher than minimum level. Intermediaries could be able to grant the level of intermed spells that DM agrees upon- and possibly a limited number of 8-9th level spells.
Casting ability could gradually taper off over time, rather than all at once. With restrictions and additional costs, some abilities could be maintained. An alternate Patron could grant intermediate level spells and abilities, until you perform great deeds or missions to prove yourself and get full upper level former abilities (or different new abilities accordingly). Since 6-9th level are arcanums granted by patron, none would be regained after current held ones are cast. I would likely half their spell slots and invocations (or only allow invocations up to half their level), or at least take away 5th level spell slots, or take 1 slot of each spell level- or at worst half their spell slots for each level.
Best case scenario for the character would be that some slightly lesser power serving his former Patron after some time steps up and contacts the character, offering to maintains all his abilities short of arcanums. As they consolidate power, and gain more warlocks and other followers, they would become powerful enough to grant progressively higher arcanums, and to a greater number of warlocks. In the meantime, preferred status of warlocks to the new fledgling Patron would get arcanums before other warlocks. The new Patron would be struggling against other challengers as well, and could be changed to wildly varying degree mentally, emotionally, and physically by evolving or metamorphing into his new position.
It would seem fair to allow a path to progressively restore full (or alternate) abilities to the warlock over the next 2-3 levels of advancement- and possibly have to earn rank in some equivalent Faction for his new Patron.
I always like players and DM negotiating from some moderate position and tailoring it a bit- instead of everything being exactly the same.
I like #2 the best, but that's because losing a patron sort of happened to me once. During the final battle of my first 5e campaign, we killed the goddess of the DM's world who had been corrupted. This allowed my Old One patron to enter the world, along with the corruption of the goddess. The Darkness and the Presence (my patron) fought each other, with nobody other than the party's wizard (who was Shapechanged into an Adult Dragon with blindsight at the time) able to see it. The Darkness won, but was weakened t the point where it had stats and could be killed. 50 hp. It had obscenely high AC, but the wizard unleashed his breath weapon and one shot it. And so there we were, in an empty, timeless void, as the battle between the Darkness and the Presence had destroyed everything in the world except for the goddess's secure temple we fought her in. Shortly after, she was reborn, and the campaign ended.
As for how to handle this happening in a campaign, here are a few ways you could lose a Patron, assuming the DM would like to go that route:
- Alignment shift; if your Patron is either a Celestial (almost certainly coming soon in Xanathar's Guide) or a Fiend and they realize they cannot bring you over to their point of view, they might decide to dump you. It's not them, sweety, it's you.
- You die and are resurrected. Depending on who your patron is and how you come back, this may mean you lose contact with them. Going with the above, if an angel were to cast Raise Dead on a fiend warlock, I can see that resulting in severance.
- You realize your pact was a terrible idea (assuming you entered into it willingly) and undertake a quest to be free of it. This may mean turning your character into an NPC when it is done.
- You make a pact with a new entity. This can simply mean rewriting the lore of your patron, or it can mean accepting an entirely new subclass.
But, for solutions to a lost patron, here are a few ideas I just thought up.
- A while ago, my party had our ranger die in a temple to a FR nature goddess. After we restored the temple, the DM texted a question to the player, requested that he not share the text, and asked for a yes or no answer. When he decided on yes, the goddess's avatar (a Unicorn) appeared and cast Raise Dead on him. As we left, she spoke "remember your oath" in Sylvan. If it had been my warlock who died instead of the ranger, that would have been a good time for the DM to declare that I had a new patron. Fey or Celestial would have worked with her.
- The magic of your patron lingers inside your spirit, and without the patron to regulate it, your Warlock levels become Wild Mage sorcerer levels. You retain your weapon and armor proficiency, you must reroll your hitpoints (the change was exhausting?), and you must pick new spells. When possible, the new spells should be ones you already knew. Sounds good thematically for an Old One.
- Combining both of the above two together, you become a Favored Soul. Would require some shoehorning.
- If you lost you patron as a result of an alignment issue, you gain a new one based on a more appropriate alignment. Your new patron is drawn to you for the skill you've already built up in mastering the more secretive arcane arts.
- If you lost a patron as a result of dying and being reborn, your spirit comes into contact with the Raven Queen. Obviously, this would preferably be something the DM clears with the player first.
#OpenDnD. #DnDBegone
This was actually a key plot point for my character. He came from a family that sold their souls (past and future) to a devil (which one is yet unknown to me), and each child underwent a ceremony where their souls were removed and put into soulstones at the family vault (with an invocation circle for said devil to collect whenever he wishes). My character rejected this path, ran away, and sought a method to regain his soul. During our quests he rescued a sorcerer (another PC) who had a book of immense, unspeakable magics that he was (not supposed to be) studding. As it turns out there was a spell in there to regain a soul--or at least, pull it from one soulstone to another. I found the necessary reagents, lost a lot of blood, and the roll for the ritual didn't kill me so boom! I had my soul!
But given the source of the ritual, my character's family would be able to do the same within 30 days. As it happened we'd worked with the dragons once and one respected my skills and capabilities as a fighter. In exchange for keeping my soul safe and finding a way to rebind it to me permanently, I agreed to serve them for 10 years. And yes, I knew there were other strings attached, but that's part of roleplaying and having to deal with consequences. So I lost my demonic warlock capabilities, but the infusion of power protecting my soul gave me insight into a more positive aspect of being a warlock, and a way to really hurt the beings of hell.
In terms of actual character progression, he started with 3 levels of Warlock (Fiend Pact) then jumped to Fighter (Eldritch Knight) for 7 levels. When he regained his soul, he retained all of his Fiend capabilities (spells, invocations), but could no longer level up in Warlock. When the new deal was made, his three levels of Warlock became Celestial (then Undying Light) and started leveling up in that subclass. My DM said to restructure Invocations (they remained the same) and spells--doubly important since SCAG came out and green-flame blade was perfect for his fighting style. Essentially, it was a soft reset for his Warlock subclass.
I did ask what would happen at the end of the contract, would he keep the powers or revert to a different class (i.e., cleric, favored soul, pure fighter); and he said it would depend on the story; meaning there's a good chance whatever is empowering me has a plan that would offer options for the answer as the game continued. But it was an excellent story for my character, along with a big question of "what next" when he finally succeeded in his goal and the repercussions of losing/gaining patrons.
I was just wondering this myself from a DM standpoint. (Trying to be prepared for all eventual outcomes.)
I think that the patron is often viewed as a source of power. -- They are a supremely powerful being. Sometimes even godlike. I would think that these beings use Warlocks as extensions of their own will. Using these people as a way to fulfill plans and forward goals.
By this extension of thought; the Warlock is likely someone of extraordinary ability. Afterall, how did they come in contact with their patron in the first place? This leads me to believe that they have a natural talent and that the patron exploits that talent. Further, I think the patron provides only a small spark of power that ignites the flame buried within the caster. Making Warlocks unlearned or undiscovered Sorcerers/Sorceresses.
This would allow the patron to eventually exploit their natural talent without needing to expend any of their own power. Afterall, once the Warlock learns to harness magic at will, they might still think that the ability comes from their Patron. And if the godlike being fails to correct their pupil, they will retain their bond and the Warlock will continue to take orders rather than risk losing their power.
Just food for thought.
-- Vitalabyss
All of these are great. I have a different line of thought on Pact Magic, based on a line from the Old One pact. " The Great Old One might be unaware of your existence..." I like the idea of stolen or borrowed power as an option. So while the magic is "Pact Magic" all that is a game construct to highlight how it is different from Sorcery or Wizardary or Divine. I don't see that a deal is a requirement. Your patron might have taught you how to use it as part of the pact, but the pact doesn't power it. There is a similar view for clerics at one point where a philosophy was the source of your power, not a deity (this is probably from Eberron, where the gods are remote.)
I like this as a player, as it opens up options. How would a patron reacted to that mortal leech with the temerity to steal power. Or perhaps you found the power from an old one, but you can't yet understand it or what it wants yet. Or you've found out how to tap into fey ley lines. It allows for cases without an overt master, but allows for allows for story hooks and consequences.
On the DM side; I always hated to deal with fallen paladins and taking their power away and so I don't like it with Warlocks. This probably has to do with 1st editions rules in hands of us young ones as using the rulebook as a cudgel; "Hey, how can I may our paladin fall this week" immaturity. And it carries over I guess because people, unless they are prepared for a storyline of loss don't like sudden surprises. So I'm never a can of "you lose the power you have already invested in" It can make a great story; but I've seen unintended bitter consequences.
I do like the idea of not advancing farther into the class, until you have found a new patron/made nice with your patron by comparison. You keep what you have, and now you have an interesting choice; move on somewhere else or take steps to move upwards. You can also use this as a tool for any warlock as the pact masters version of training. "Oh you want the book of shadows? It can be yours soon, and I will teach you it. But first, you must find the mystic candles held by priest Macguffin!"
This interview with Mike Mearls sheds some designer intent on the issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiS5mkIff_8
At around 2:10 and 3:45 MM states that the power once given can't be taken back. Given that most patrons are typically powerful immortal beings, granting power they can't revoke to a mortal for a few hundred years is largely inconsequential.
I kind of took it that the pact's power was held with the pact itself. The only thing you could do to lose it is break the pact.
My question Nalced37 is what are you trying to accomplish?
Are you interested in writing fiction? Then it could be whatever you want it to be.
Are you interested in making it a story point as a GM? Then I'd say you'll need major buy in from your player.
Are you a player and you're interested in making it a major story point? Then I'd say you'll need major buy in from your GM.
It still comes down to... what do you want to accomplish? I disagree with *@#% over the player and denying all powers will nilly....
I'm interested in it as a story point for an NPC, so it's pretty much the first option, that I could really do whatever. I was just wondering if anyone knew of an official rule regarding it, or what thoughts people might have for other options.
Something I'm doing in curse of strahd is trying to undo a fiend pact on my soul that strahd himself somehow obtained the contract to. I'm technically multiclass in paladin, but every time I meet certain conditions (determine by my DM) he let's me undo a warlock level and apply it to paladin, making it so that my soul is being won back by my god as the fiend's work (and now Strahd's) in me becomes undone. I like how we're handling it, as it's not hobbling my character while still making me have to roleplay carefully in order to earn the redemption.
#OpenDnD. #DnDBegone
While I do like the idea of being able to change your subclass... gives the player agency and can feed the DM and party story hooks. Maybe they just don't like their subclass, but they don't want to make a new character that is another Fighter. Maybe they were a Great Weapon Master, but they found The Sun Blade, and want to be Sword and Board. Do you want to make changing that a story point? There are a lot of rules in AL play I don't like, the one I love is getting to change out anything in your character up to level 5.
Or for a big enough plot change possibly a whole class. in The Gamers 2: Dorkness Rising a Goddess replaces the Sorcereress' levels with Cleric levels as a boon.
That said you're looking for an plot idea for an NPC... so official rules can be thrown out the window because "balance" isn't an issue, it's easier to Rule of Cool.
Another possible answer:
The Warlock has grown strong enough to force the connection, instead of the patron giving it to warlock, the warlock now takes it from the patron, making it an active seeking enemy.
I imagine this being possible because the warlock actually strengthens his soul soul through the connection, and in order to even be able to receive the gifts the warlock needs it.
(my explanation as to why friendly patrons don't just give the warlock lvl 20 stuff to begin with, the soul needs to be strong enough to channel the power)
(Also: Soul = Charisma = The ability to influence other souls and the world => The connection is a derivative/usage of the patrons ability to influence other souls a.k.a. it's charisma)
So I've been having a read here and think a lot of the answers are kinda relevant to my situation but also kinda not.
My character died while in the possession of a Delkyr (Did not know it was Delkyr until it was too late, also Eberon campaign) artifact that was embedded in his hand, when he died he heard a voice talking to him offering him another chance which he accepted, this then transformed my character and made him semi under this entities control, the artifact then became part of my characters face (Very much like the millennium eye but unable to remove), last session we found a very strong anti magic field and my character lost connection with the Patron and the artifact for the first time looked removable.
I grabbed one of the part and got them to try and remove it to which we discovered it was attached like it was stitched in by something living, at this point it was forcibly removed instantly killing my character (again) so it seems like the Patron was directly linked tot he artifact and was keeping my character alive, we are about to reincarnate him (hopefully) but I am not sure where that would leave me with my Warlock, my character is a Dhakaani goblin who hates nothing more than the Delkyr so there is no way he would want to go back to being under their control.
What I am trying to work out is whether or not I would straight up lose the Warlock class as my character would have a completely new body and no long have the artifact in him but also doesn't want to be connected to this patron at all or if something else would/could happen.
TLDR: My Dhakaani Goblin got taken over by Delkyr when he died and was brought back via Delkyr artifact, my goblin hates Delkyr, found a way to cut the link by removing artifact but it killed my goblin (again), goblin is being reincarnated into a new body, would he still be a warlock or just lose the warlock ability and put the levels back into his primary class?
Nothing states that you lose your Warlock levels or abilities if you lose your patron.