So, one of the eldritch invocations that Warlocks can pick is Relentless Hex:
It comes online as an option at level seven so long as you can hex or curse (such as Hexblade's Curse, the Hex spell, or Ill Omen Invocation).
It allows you to teleport as a bonus action up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you can see, so long as the destination is within 5ft of the target of your Hex or Curse.
Now, initially this seems really cool. Holy cow! I get misty step as a cantrip now, basically? But without any components to boot? Yeet! Right?
I had it on a martial sorlock that I was playing in a campaign a while ago. He was a hexblade bladelock/a martial sorcerer homebrew subclass of my own devising (if anyone is interested I can send them the details if they DM me). But the issue was, I didn't really get a lot of mechanical mileage out of it.
It's actually pretty restrictive and situational. First, you must have the hex spell or Ill Omen or be a hexblade warlock to begin with. Okay, that's easy enough because hex is a no-brainer warlock spell if you're a martial warlock. Except once you reach level 7 (when this invocation comes online) if you don't take Shadow of Moil/Greater Invisibility, you're going to be missing out on a lot mechanically, and those will be your concentration spells. Meaning, hex is no longer really viable at level 7.
Okay, what if you're a hexblade warlock, just curse them with hexblade curse, right? No problem. Except for the fact that you have to use a bonus action to activate that first. Meaning you wouldn't be able to use it until the second turn anyways. Meaning for most creatures, you would have been able to move at least 60ft even without it. Rarely, if ever do battles have a larger space than 60ft to start with in DnD. If they do, you're better off just staying behind and peppering with Eldritch Blast or using your pact weapon to summon a bow.
Not only that, but the teleportation must land within 5 ft of your target meaning that the window of opportunity for this to see use is when you are between 35-65 ft away from your enemy. Which again, by the end of turn two, you should be able to cover anyways.
Now it does get use if you're grappled, or restrained, or in difficult terrain. But those conditions are rare as well. Maybe your enemy is fleeing you (rarely happens) and they are faster than you (okay also rare).
To further add to the bonus action competition between hex, Hexblade's Curse, and relentless hex, if you're interested in powerbuilding your martial warlock, you're probably going to look into polearm master to increase the number of attacks you get in a turn. Most polearms also have reach making closing that distance even easier. So again, I just don't really see relentless hex being that mechanically useful.
So it seems to me that this is just very limited and situational in use, and may or may not be worth it.
Now that I've talked about it's mechanical limitations, I will praise it's flavor. The ability to just pop in and out next to your enemies is delicious and can really make you feel like something from like a shonen protagonist, doing instant transmission or some kind of flash step or something. Making your enemy go "NANI?!"
I mean that's basically what I did with my sorlock, I just had him teleport behind or above the enemy at the beginning of every turn before attacking just to add some flavor and dynamics to the fight. But mechanically, I got little if any use out of it.
TL;DR: Relentless Hex is really really cool, but only situationally useful and may compete with some better mechanical options.
Let me know your opinions and thoughts though! Am I wrong? I'd love to be, because it's a really cool invocation.
You can ask your DM if you gain an advantage from doing it. On one hand, it makes sense. No one expects a warlock to pop out of thin air from behind them. On the other hand, it might be abused, so maybe a limit on how many times you can do it before your target starts to expect it. Maybe that limit can depend on their wisdom and intelligence scores. It's all up to your DM though. In addition, Hex can be moved from one target to another. So once you killed that target you Hexed earlier, you use a bonus action to move the hex to someone else, eldritch blast them and next turn teleport behind them and Omae Wa Moe Shinderiu them.
You can ask your DM if you gain an advantage from doing it. On one hand, it makes sense. No one expects a warlock to pop out of thin air from behind them. On the other hand, it might be abused, so maybe a limit on how many times you can do it before your target starts to expect it. Maybe that limit can depend on their wisdom and intelligence scores. It's all up to your DM though. In addition, Hex can be moved from one target to another. So once you killed that target you Hexed earlier, you use a bonus action to move the hex to someone else, eldritch blast them and next turn teleport behind them and Omae Wa Moe Shinderiu them.
My main issue with this is that you have to burn a bonus action to transfer hex before you can use a bonus action to teleport over there. My second issue with this is that you have to land within 5ft of the enemy. Maybe if it was just "you can teleport up to 30ft in the direction of the target of your hex" it might be better.
It is a chase mechanic, and it is very very good at that
However wouldn't a much better chase mechanic be to either take a.) Mobile, b.) 2 levels in rogue, c.) Expeditious retreat; all of which provide extra movement for no resource cost, aren't limited to within 5ft of a target, and can be used without a target, and save you an extra invocation?
Now this is probably the best argument I've actually seen for relentless hex. You hex/Hexblade's Curse/curse your familiar and use them as a roving teleportation spot.
Its pretty bad. For a hexblade you might get some use out of it but not enough to justify spending an invocation on it. The bonus action pretty much kills it. Round 2 is the first time you get to use it and the enemy might be dead by then and if they aren't in most cases you could have closed in on them anyways with normal movement. So you are looking at a very rare circumstance it is useful. Quadruple its range and or let it be used as part of the bonus action of applying the hex. Also it should allow you to track whoever has the hex and the teleport should not require that you be able to see them. Now you are looking at a 7th level hex that is worth it, and its still not a no brainier for most characters it would only be a no brainier for pretty specialized builds.
Its pretty bad. For a hexblade you might get some use out of it but not enough to justify spending an invocation on it. The bonus action pretty much kills it. Round 2 is the first time you get to use it and the enemy might be dead by then and if they aren't in most cases you could have closed in on them anyways with normal movement. So you are looking at a very rare circumstance it is useful. Quadruple its range and or let it be used as part of the bonus action of applying the hex. Also it should allow you to track whoever has the hex and the teleport should not require that you be able to see them. Now you are looking at a 7th level hex that is worth it, and its still not a no brainier for most characters it would only be a no brainier for pretty specialized builds.
There are way too many total dud invocations.
You see, that's my thoughts on it. It's really cool though. You could make it like a weaker misty step but without the target restriction and it'd already be potentially worth it. Like as a bonus action you can teleport to an unoccupied space up to half your movement speed away. Or something like that.
It is a chase mechanic, and it is very very good at that
However wouldn't a much better chase mechanic be to either take a.) Mobile, b.) 2 levels in rogue, c.) Expeditious retreat; all of which provide extra movement for no resource cost, aren't limited to within 5ft of a target, and can be used without a target, and save you an extra invocation?
No. These wouldn't necessarily be better. First of all. These might not have an outright resource cost but they have other costs such as action economy, ASI usage requirments restricitng when you can pick them up, Level requirements in an alternate class which can slow down your main class gains, Or your trading usage of one of your precious spell slots in some cases for an additional class feature at worst and At best your trading casting one spell for another.
People are hooked on Mobile. They are hooked on that extra movement and ways they can move around in battle. It is not the must have that people make it out to be in plenty of situations. Now it might have uses on a Hexblade for other reasons like it's additional effects in close combat battle where a hexblade is more suited which makes it more valuable. But it is not doing the same thing.
Your complaining about the Bonus Action usage. This is something that needs to be considered a little more openly in general but on a tactical level it's not always wise to be the first to that enemy that is 60' away. Rogues and monks tend to learn this lesson the hard way. So that first round bonus action to set things up is not necessarily a bad thing. Also. The levels of Rogue still require your bonus action. Potentially putting you in the same situation where you use your bonus action for one thing and then don't have it to do another. So you may run afoul of other setups you are trying to do.
As for the spells. Each spell has a different purpose. Shadow Of Moil is primarily useful if things are trying to hit you. It's wasted if nothing is trying to do that. Greater Invisibility is taking the effort to try and keep things from hitting you but there are various ways through it. Many of them lower level and easier to obtain than Greater Invisibility itself. Hex on the other hand has the specific purpose of you damaging and weakening your enemy instead. All 3 have appropriate times where each one is useful. So no your answer shouldn't always be that your Concentration slot is immediately taken up with one of the other two spells. There is also the fact that because warlock spells are upcast. The only spell that is actually taking advantage of that is Hex and it's the only one that can fully reliably be Pre-Cast since by the level that we are talking about the spell has an 8 hour time limit if you keep your concentration rather than a 1 minute Time limit. This means that Hex is the only one of the three to have real potential use in multiple battles for a single casting.
I would like to take a moment to propose a custom Invocation for your approval.
Totally Renamed Relentless Hex
Prerequisite: 7th level, hex spell or a warlock feature that curses
Your curse creates a temporary bond between you and your target. Whenever you curse a target by your hex spell, the bestow curse spell, the Hexblade’s Curse feature or Maddening Hex Invocation, you can magically teleport up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space you can see within 5 feet of the target To teleport in this way, you must be able to see the cursed target.
I recognize that some people might consider this to be too powerful of an ability. A misty step-like feature that doesn't require spell slots or a bonus action? That does seen powerful... if it was on a wizard.
The warlock is not a wizard.
Being able to cast low level spells on yourself at will without using spell slots is part and parcel of warlock invocations. And modifying what existing spells can do without requiring actions is also within the realm of Invocations - not one of the Eldritch Blast Invocations require additional actions. And this ability does come with a rather major caveat- it relies on using your bonus action for Concentration-abilities* into melee range, that area which has a large chance of making you lose Concentration.
As such, I would like to thank you for your time on looking over this homebrew for your game. In a totally unrelated note, I will be bringing the pizza and snacks for the next game.
Yours Truly, Player X.
*Well, unless you use Bestow Curse, but that's already a touch range effect, making teleportation within 5' of the cursed target rather redundant - you're already there. Plus, its a once-a-day spell that requires an Invocation to learn. That's a huge cost already.
I do feel like this invocation could have done with an "as part of activating the hex or as a bonus action" stipulation, so you could Hex and teleport on the same turn, then use a plain bonus action in later turns to keep doing it as required. This wouldn't be OP I think as you'd have to burn spell slots to use it again, and Hexblades can only curse once per short rest.
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I do feel like this invocation could have done with an "as part of activating the hex or as a bonus action" stipulation, so you could Hex and teleport on the same turn, then use a plain bonus action in later turns to keep doing it as required. This wouldn't be OP I think as you'd have to burn spell slots to use it again, and Hexblades can only curse once per short rest.
I'd say not as casting but as applying the hex, so as you transfer it it still is part of that bonus action. And it would still be a really weak invocation, it would be a okay level 2 invocation at that point, one you'd swap out as you leveled.
I think people have this ooh I'm teleporting reaction to abilities like this. Its 30'. 99% of the time it is no different than saying you can use your bonus action to move but only towards a person you have hexed, heck its weaker than that if they are most than 30 feet away. There will be niche situations where they are on a ledge, or across a ravine or something. But really how often do you want to teleport solo across the ravine to fight the enemy on your own. Mostly it is like a super restrictive expeditions retreat and that is 1st level before the restrictions.
The reason why teleport functions like misty step are great is they are get out of jail free cards. Moving towards the enemy isn't why you will use misty step except in very rare circumstances. And if that is the only way it can be used its just not good.
Not saying its never useful, like teleport in front of them to block their retreat or whatever. But it just wont come up often enough to put a precious invocation slot into, especially when you will likely be learning misty step anyways. Hexblades may get some use out of it here and there, maybe someone with crossbow expert who really focuses in on battlefield control will get use out of it with the right invocations with their eldritch blast.
I mostly agree with Mephista and Havarrik. Invocations are valuable and numerous restrictions (not just the BAction, but the 30' limit on the teleport as well) on the ability make it quite questionable as worthwhile. However, there are some DMs that love to use rough terrain, Wall spells, and height differences against the party. If you know you have one of those DMs, this Invocation, written as it is, could still be worth it.
I mostly agree with Mephista and Havarrik. Invocations are valuable and numerous restrictions (not just the BAction, but the 30' limit on the teleport as well) on the ability make it quite questionable as worthwhile. However, there are some DMs that love to use rough terrain, Wall spells, and height differences against the party. If you know you have one of those DMs, this Invocation, written as it is, could still be worth it.
If you have a DM who regularly has enemies that can and will run away (if they are smart enough). Potentially with things that make AoO's less of a problem for them this power is also still worth it. Because you can retain your action through it's use when moving after it because this power functionally can become your bonus action dash.
It probably would have been better if the distance of were at least 45 feet instead of 30 feet so that there is at least a clear reason to use it frequently over the choice of picking a feat like Mobile instead.
Yeah, waiting a turn to use it kind of stinks. On the other hand, teleportation means moving in three dimensions. If they're above or below you, especially if it's more you can climb or want to risk jumping down to, then it's a solid move. And if there are enemies between you and the hexed target, then you can teleport through them. I can see some legitimate uses for it, but like any invocation, it's up to the warlock. If you don't think it's worth it, then pass it by.
It probably would have been better if the distance of were at least 45 feet instead of 30 feet so that there is at least a clear reason to use it frequently over the choice of picking a feat like Mobile instead.
The clear reason is more in the fact that this is a conditional bonus action dash considering Dashing still requires a Warlock's full action to accomplish which can hurt your action economy either before or after the movement to perform greatly.
An Invocation is also generally easier to take than an entire feat. Though feats can definitely be worth taking when they can be taken.
Even for a bladelock its value is minimal, just a little bit better. You likely still have eldritch blast, so if your move ends a bit short you still have a good alternative. Unless your GM makes sure every encounter starts exactly enough distance away that your normal move is not enough to get there after round 2(round 1 applying the hex) or every enemy is spread out 40 feet apart or something. It is just rarely going to come up as an action you need yo use. Look impressive, sure. But need or be useful often enough to be anything other than a bad mechanical choice, doubtful.
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So, one of the eldritch invocations that Warlocks can pick is Relentless Hex:
It comes online as an option at level seven so long as you can hex or curse (such as Hexblade's Curse, the Hex spell, or Ill Omen Invocation).
It allows you to teleport as a bonus action up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you can see, so long as the destination is within 5ft of the target of your Hex or Curse.
Now, initially this seems really cool. Holy cow! I get misty step as a cantrip now, basically? But without any components to boot? Yeet! Right?
I had it on a martial sorlock that I was playing in a campaign a while ago. He was a hexblade bladelock/a martial sorcerer homebrew subclass of my own devising (if anyone is interested I can send them the details if they DM me). But the issue was, I didn't really get a lot of mechanical mileage out of it.
It's actually pretty restrictive and situational. First, you must have the hex spell or Ill Omen or be a hexblade warlock to begin with. Okay, that's easy enough because hex is a no-brainer warlock spell if you're a martial warlock. Except once you reach level 7 (when this invocation comes online) if you don't take Shadow of Moil/Greater Invisibility, you're going to be missing out on a lot mechanically, and those will be your concentration spells. Meaning, hex is no longer really viable at level 7.
Okay, what if you're a hexblade warlock, just curse them with hexblade curse, right? No problem. Except for the fact that you have to use a bonus action to activate that first. Meaning you wouldn't be able to use it until the second turn anyways. Meaning for most creatures, you would have been able to move at least 60ft even without it. Rarely, if ever do battles have a larger space than 60ft to start with in DnD. If they do, you're better off just staying behind and peppering with Eldritch Blast or using your pact weapon to summon a bow.
Not only that, but the teleportation must land within 5 ft of your target meaning that the window of opportunity for this to see use is when you are between 35-65 ft away from your enemy. Which again, by the end of turn two, you should be able to cover anyways.
Now it does get use if you're grappled, or restrained, or in difficult terrain. But those conditions are rare as well. Maybe your enemy is fleeing you (rarely happens) and they are faster than you (okay also rare).
To further add to the bonus action competition between hex, Hexblade's Curse, and relentless hex, if you're interested in powerbuilding your martial warlock, you're probably going to look into polearm master to increase the number of attacks you get in a turn. Most polearms also have reach making closing that distance even easier. So again, I just don't really see relentless hex being that mechanically useful.
So it seems to me that this is just very limited and situational in use, and may or may not be worth it.
Now that I've talked about it's mechanical limitations, I will praise it's flavor. The ability to just pop in and out next to your enemies is delicious and can really make you feel like something from like a shonen protagonist, doing instant transmission or some kind of flash step or something. Making your enemy go "NANI?!"
I mean that's basically what I did with my sorlock, I just had him teleport behind or above the enemy at the beginning of every turn before attacking just to add some flavor and dynamics to the fight. But mechanically, I got little if any use out of it.
TL;DR: Relentless Hex is really really cool, but only situationally useful and may compete with some better mechanical options.
Let me know your opinions and thoughts though! Am I wrong? I'd love to be, because it's a really cool invocation.
You can ask your DM if you gain an advantage from doing it. On one hand, it makes sense. No one expects a warlock to pop out of thin air from behind them. On the other hand, it might be abused, so maybe a limit on how many times you can do it before your target starts to expect it. Maybe that limit can depend on their wisdom and intelligence scores. It's all up to your DM though.
In addition, Hex can be moved from one target to another. So once you killed that target you Hexed earlier, you use a bonus action to move the hex to someone else, eldritch blast them and next turn teleport behind them and Omae Wa Moe Shinderiu them.
Varielky
It is a chase mechanic, and it is very very good at that
Who said that you can only hex enemies?
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]My main issue with this is that you have to burn a bonus action to transfer hex before you can use a bonus action to teleport over there. My second issue with this is that you have to land within 5ft of the enemy. Maybe if it was just "you can teleport up to 30ft in the direction of the target of your hex" it might be better.
However wouldn't a much better chase mechanic be to either take a.) Mobile, b.) 2 levels in rogue, c.) Expeditious retreat; all of which provide extra movement for no resource cost, aren't limited to within 5ft of a target, and can be used without a target, and save you an extra invocation?
Now this is probably the best argument I've actually seen for relentless hex. You hex/Hexblade's Curse/curse your familiar and use them as a roving teleportation spot.
Its pretty bad. For a hexblade you might get some use out of it but not enough to justify spending an invocation on it. The bonus action pretty much kills it. Round 2 is the first time you get to use it and the enemy might be dead by then and if they aren't in most cases you could have closed in on them anyways with normal movement. So you are looking at a very rare circumstance it is useful. Quadruple its range and or let it be used as part of the bonus action of applying the hex. Also it should allow you to track whoever has the hex and the teleport should not require that you be able to see them. Now you are looking at a 7th level hex that is worth it, and its still not a no brainier for most characters it would only be a no brainier for pretty specialized builds.
There are way too many total dud invocations.
You see, that's my thoughts on it. It's really cool though. You could make it like a weaker misty step but without the target restriction and it'd already be potentially worth it. Like as a bonus action you can teleport to an unoccupied space up to half your movement speed away. Or something like that.
No. These wouldn't necessarily be better. First of all. These might not have an outright resource cost but they have other costs such as action economy, ASI usage requirments restricitng when you can pick them up, Level requirements in an alternate class which can slow down your main class gains, Or your trading usage of one of your precious spell slots in some cases for an additional class feature at worst and At best your trading casting one spell for another.
People are hooked on Mobile. They are hooked on that extra movement and ways they can move around in battle. It is not the must have that people make it out to be in plenty of situations. Now it might have uses on a Hexblade for other reasons like it's additional effects in close combat battle where a hexblade is more suited which makes it more valuable. But it is not doing the same thing.
Your complaining about the Bonus Action usage. This is something that needs to be considered a little more openly in general but on a tactical level it's not always wise to be the first to that enemy that is 60' away. Rogues and monks tend to learn this lesson the hard way. So that first round bonus action to set things up is not necessarily a bad thing. Also. The levels of Rogue still require your bonus action. Potentially putting you in the same situation where you use your bonus action for one thing and then don't have it to do another. So you may run afoul of other setups you are trying to do.
As for the spells. Each spell has a different purpose. Shadow Of Moil is primarily useful if things are trying to hit you. It's wasted if nothing is trying to do that. Greater Invisibility is taking the effort to try and keep things from hitting you but there are various ways through it. Many of them lower level and easier to obtain than Greater Invisibility itself. Hex on the other hand has the specific purpose of you damaging and weakening your enemy instead. All 3 have appropriate times where each one is useful. So no your answer shouldn't always be that your Concentration slot is immediately taken up with one of the other two spells. There is also the fact that because warlock spells are upcast. The only spell that is actually taking advantage of that is Hex and it's the only one that can fully reliably be Pre-Cast since by the level that we are talking about the spell has an 8 hour time limit if you keep your concentration rather than a 1 minute Time limit. This means that Hex is the only one of the three to have real potential use in multiple battles for a single casting.
Dear Dungeon Master.
I would like to take a moment to propose a custom Invocation for your approval.
I recognize that some people might consider this to be too powerful of an ability. A misty step-like feature that doesn't require spell slots or a bonus action? That does seen powerful... if it was on a wizard.
The warlock is not a wizard.
Being able to cast low level spells on yourself at will without using spell slots is part and parcel of warlock invocations. And modifying what existing spells can do without requiring actions is also within the realm of Invocations - not one of the Eldritch Blast Invocations require additional actions. And this ability does come with a rather major caveat- it relies on using your bonus action for Concentration-abilities* into melee range, that area which has a large chance of making you lose Concentration.
As such, I would like to thank you for your time on looking over this homebrew for your game. In a totally unrelated note, I will be bringing the pizza and snacks for the next game.
Yours Truly, Player X.
*Well, unless you use Bestow Curse, but that's already a touch range effect, making teleportation within 5' of the cursed target rather redundant - you're already there. Plus, its a once-a-day spell that requires an Invocation to learn. That's a huge cost already.
I do feel like this invocation could have done with an "as part of activating the hex or as a bonus action" stipulation, so you could Hex and teleport on the same turn, then use a plain bonus action in later turns to keep doing it as required. This wouldn't be OP I think as you'd have to burn spell slots to use it again, and Hexblades can only curse once per short rest.
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I'd say not as casting but as applying the hex, so as you transfer it it still is part of that bonus action. And it would still be a really weak invocation, it would be a okay level 2 invocation at that point, one you'd swap out as you leveled.
I think people have this ooh I'm teleporting reaction to abilities like this. Its 30'. 99% of the time it is no different than saying you can use your bonus action to move but only towards a person you have hexed, heck its weaker than that if they are most than 30 feet away. There will be niche situations where they are on a ledge, or across a ravine or something. But really how often do you want to teleport solo across the ravine to fight the enemy on your own. Mostly it is like a super restrictive expeditions retreat and that is 1st level before the restrictions.
The reason why teleport functions like misty step are great is they are get out of jail free cards. Moving towards the enemy isn't why you will use misty step except in very rare circumstances. And if that is the only way it can be used its just not good.
Not saying its never useful, like teleport in front of them to block their retreat or whatever. But it just wont come up often enough to put a precious invocation slot into, especially when you will likely be learning misty step anyways. Hexblades may get some use out of it here and there, maybe someone with crossbow expert who really focuses in on battlefield control will get use out of it with the right invocations with their eldritch blast.
I mostly agree with Mephista and Havarrik. Invocations are valuable and numerous restrictions (not just the BAction, but the 30' limit on the teleport as well) on the ability make it quite questionable as worthwhile. However, there are some DMs that love to use rough terrain, Wall spells, and height differences against the party. If you know you have one of those DMs, this Invocation, written as it is, could still be worth it.
If you have a DM who regularly has enemies that can and will run away (if they are smart enough). Potentially with things that make AoO's less of a problem for them this power is also still worth it. Because you can retain your action through it's use when moving after it because this power functionally can become your bonus action dash.
It probably would have been better if the distance of were at least 45 feet instead of 30 feet so that there is at least a clear reason to use it frequently over the choice of picking a feat like Mobile instead.
Yeah, waiting a turn to use it kind of stinks. On the other hand, teleportation means moving in three dimensions. If they're above or below you, especially if it's more you can climb or want to risk jumping down to, then it's a solid move. And if there are enemies between you and the hexed target, then you can teleport through them. I can see some legitimate uses for it, but like any invocation, it's up to the warlock. If you don't think it's worth it, then pass it by.
The clear reason is more in the fact that this is a conditional bonus action dash considering Dashing still requires a Warlock's full action to accomplish which can hurt your action economy either before or after the movement to perform greatly.
An Invocation is also generally easier to take than an entire feat. Though feats can definitely be worth taking when they can be taken.
Unless you're a bladelock, it has minimal value.
Even for a bladelock its value is minimal, just a little bit better. You likely still have eldritch blast, so if your move ends a bit short you still have a good alternative. Unless your GM makes sure every encounter starts exactly enough distance away that your normal move is not enough to get there after round 2(round 1 applying the hex) or every enemy is spread out 40 feet apart or something. It is just rarely going to come up as an action you need yo use. Look impressive, sure. But need or be useful often enough to be anything other than a bad mechanical choice, doubtful.