Right at the end of today's session my character failed a wisdom check and the DM passed me a note that said I was now Lawful Evil, but my warlock's celestial patron is Lawful Good and has been working with me to overcome my infernal characteristics (I'm a teifling that wishes to become good). I was chaotic neutral on my way to good. My DM after said it didn't occur to him how this is probably a crisis of faith when i brought it up as a huge deal. So wondering if people have suggestions for how to handle it. Does my patron abandon me and i loose me celestial abilities, or what?
I'd laugh at my DM and tell him to get bent. My alignment is mine, not his to determine.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I agree with crzyhawk. If you did nothing evil, he should leave your character alone.
IF you are willing to play with this, then perform an atonement. Spend all night praying in a temple. Renew your pledge to your patron. Scream that you make your life choices not some arbitrary outside element. and then ignore the pronouncement and act good.
I'm unclear on how, exactly, you suddenly became lawful evil. You said you failed a saving throw, so... did an enemy curse you? Charm you? Mind control you? What exactly happened? Because it sounds like the alignment shift was not of your own choosing, but rather a form of an attack that an enemy did to you. So your LG patron would probably want to help you overcome this attack and get you back on track toward being good.
That being said, I've always considered alignment to be more of a suggestion than an actual game mechanic. Even back in the 1e and AD&D days I never really grasped how someone's entire moral and ethical paradigm could be condensed down into such a simplistic notion as an alignment.
If you have any more details to offer, that'd be great. Otherwise it sounds like your patron's response is going to up to the DM more than you, so you should probably talk tot he DM out of game to get a heads up.
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Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
Much like how a good player can have an evil patron, there is nothing wrong with an evil character having a good patron. A devil would try to tempt a good character to do evil acts that would dam their soul to the hells, a good patron would try to tempt an evil character to doing good acts in a similar fashion. Warlock pacts are binding and the involved parties can't just end them or not fulfill their side of the agreement. There are real severe consequences to violating your pact that way. Not holding up your end of the bargain isn't an option for most (if not all) patrons. A patron can't just deny powers to a warlock unless there is a clause in the pact that lets them; or if the warlock violates their end of deal ( which will have its own set of consequences). Thats why pacts are risky for both the warlock and the patron. You can't just shut them off. Its also why the patrons are so picky about making their pacts.
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Check out my Disabled & Dragons Youtube Channel for 5e Monster and Player Tactics. Helping the Disabled Community and Players and DM’s (both new and experienced) get into D&D. Plus there is a talking Dragon named Quill.
After a long rest everyone has to make a Wisdom save. If you fail, your alignment is turned to Lawful Evil as the overwhelming horrors of being in Hell corrupt you.
So no, there's no telling the DM to get bent and no arguing. It's what hell does to people.
Pervasive Evil
Evil pervades the Nine Hells, and visitors to this plane feel its influence. At the end of each long rest taken on this plane, a visitor that isn’t evil must make a DC 10 Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature’s alignment changes to lawful evil.
Really, rushing through it, because the party has no idea how long they have to save the city, there's a really decent chance the alignment will change back when they get back to the Prime Material plan.
I don't find it harsh at all. You're in Hell going up against an Archdevil. There's going to be consequences.
He said its literally in the actual module, not something he came up with and its part of a plot point , its an official module too. So its totally legit to happen just unexpected since he thought i'd be one of the few to save. I rolled a 2 though
You can rule it however you want. I'm not your DM and you're not mine. I'm just quoting what the module says is part of being in Avernus. It's an interesting effect and drives role-playing in my opinion. That's why I used it.
It happened to the bard in the party I'm running it through and they're fine with it.
Lulu isn't going to take off because one party member becomes Lawful Evil.
I have a lawful good paladin I've been playing for years who follows a Lawful Evil god. It can easily be done with a little creativity and a little role-playing.
I have run Descent Into Avernus 5 times for five varying groups of people. Not a single person has complained about the alignment change option. You are the first and only. Just because you're Lawful Evil doesn't mean you are dishonorable and will let a city full of people die.
Plus, I'm Lawful Evil now. Well, if I redeem Zariel, that leaves a power vacuum I could fill in Avernus. Even if I don't, a whole city is now thankful to me. A lawful evil character could easily work with any of that.
I haven't had the opportunity to complain about it, but I certainly would. Then I'd proceed to play my character however I want, regardless of what the alignment on the character sheet says. It's not the DMs call how I choose to play my character. He can live with it, or boot me from the table, but my character is MINE. Trying to roleplay an alignment I didn't want or ask for is not something I think is fun or interesting so I am not going to do it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
No, the DM is /not/ always right. That is the greatest fallacy that floats around about this game. the DM adjudicates the game so that everyone has fun. The DM should /never/ be involved with ruining fun by permanently altering characters without the players consent. There's a social contract between players and the DM; while the DM might have final say on rules adjudication, he does not have final say over characters and roleplay of those characters.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
So hears an interesting fact, Unless your DM rules otherwise you don't lose your powers if your aliment changes, hell you don't lose them if you don't listen to your patron. Once the deal is made it's permanent, the DnD beyond guys even talk about that in there videos about patrons. Your not a cleric s your powers are not bound by your worship or loyalty. that being said keeping on good terms with your patron is a good idea, but the question is not my DM made me change my alignment what should I do.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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I'd laugh at my DM and tell him to get bent. My alignment is mine, not his to determine.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I agree with crzyhawk. If you did nothing evil, he should leave your character alone.
IF you are willing to play with this, then perform an atonement. Spend all night praying in a temple. Renew your pledge to your patron. Scream that you make your life choices not some arbitrary outside element. and then ignore the pronouncement and act good.
I'm unclear on how, exactly, you suddenly became lawful evil. You said you failed a saving throw, so... did an enemy curse you? Charm you? Mind control you? What exactly happened? Because it sounds like the alignment shift was not of your own choosing, but rather a form of an attack that an enemy did to you. So your LG patron would probably want to help you overcome this attack and get you back on track toward being good.
That being said, I've always considered alignment to be more of a suggestion than an actual game mechanic. Even back in the 1e and AD&D days I never really grasped how someone's entire moral and ethical paradigm could be condensed down into such a simplistic notion as an alignment.
If you have any more details to offer, that'd be great. Otherwise it sounds like your patron's response is going to up to the DM more than you, so you should probably talk tot he DM out of game to get a heads up.
Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
Anzio Faro. Lvl 5 Prot. Aasimar Light Cleric.
Much like how a good player can have an evil patron, there is nothing wrong with an evil character having a good patron. A devil would try to tempt a good character to do evil acts that would dam their soul to the hells, a good patron would try to tempt an evil character to doing good acts in a similar fashion. Warlock pacts are binding and the involved parties can't just end them or not fulfill their side of the agreement. There are real severe consequences to violating your pact that way. Not holding up your end of the bargain isn't an option for most (if not all) patrons. A patron can't just deny powers to a warlock unless there is a clause in the pact that lets them; or if the warlock violates their end of deal ( which will have its own set of consequences). Thats why pacts are risky for both the warlock and the patron. You can't just shut them off. Its also why the patrons are so picky about making their pacts.
Check out my Disabled & Dragons Youtube Channel for 5e Monster and Player Tactics. Helping the Disabled Community and Players and DM’s (both new and experienced) get into D&D. Plus there is a talking Dragon named Quill.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPPmyTI0tZ6nM-bzY0IG3ww
Sounds like Descent into Avernus.
After a long rest everyone has to make a Wisdom save. If you fail, your alignment is turned to Lawful Evil as the overwhelming horrors of being in Hell corrupt you.
So no, there's no telling the DM to get bent and no arguing. It's what hell does to people.
Pervasive Evil
Evil pervades the Nine Hells, and visitors to this plane feel its influence. At the end of each long rest taken on this plane, a visitor that isn’t evil must make a DC 10 Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature’s alignment changes to lawful evil.
Really, rushing through it, because the party has no idea how long they have to save the city, there's a really decent chance the alignment will change back when they get back to the Prime Material plan.
I don't find it harsh at all. You're in Hell going up against an Archdevil. There's going to be consequences.
He said its literally in the actual module, not something he came up with and its part of a plot point , its an official module too. So its totally legit to happen just unexpected since he thought i'd be one of the few to save. I rolled a 2 though
You can rule it however you want. I'm not your DM and you're not mine. I'm just quoting what the module says is part of being in Avernus. It's an interesting effect and drives role-playing in my opinion. That's why I used it.
It happened to the bard in the party I'm running it through and they're fine with it.
Lulu isn't going to take off because one party member becomes Lawful Evil.
I have a lawful good paladin I've been playing for years who follows a Lawful Evil god. It can easily be done with a little creativity and a little role-playing.
I have run Descent Into Avernus 5 times for five varying groups of people. Not a single person has complained about the alignment change option. You are the first and only. Just because you're Lawful Evil doesn't mean you are dishonorable and will let a city full of people die.
Plus, I'm Lawful Evil now. Well, if I redeem Zariel, that leaves a power vacuum I could fill in Avernus. Even if I don't, a whole city is now thankful to me. A lawful evil character could easily work with any of that.
I haven't had the opportunity to complain about it, but I certainly would. Then I'd proceed to play my character however I want, regardless of what the alignment on the character sheet says. It's not the DMs call how I choose to play my character. He can live with it, or boot me from the table, but my character is MINE. Trying to roleplay an alignment I didn't want or ask for is not something I think is fun or interesting so I am not going to do it.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
No, the DM is /not/ always right. That is the greatest fallacy that floats around about this game. the DM adjudicates the game so that everyone has fun. The DM should /never/ be involved with ruining fun by permanently altering characters without the players consent. There's a social contract between players and the DM; while the DM might have final say on rules adjudication, he does not have final say over characters and roleplay of those characters.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Between all the groups, 30 players. Around 15 have failed.
No one has complained. Most enjoyed the RP challenge.
Regardless, I'm done on this, because we're obviously not going to come to a consensus. I like the rule. You don't. We get it.
So hears an interesting fact, Unless your DM rules otherwise you don't lose your powers if your aliment changes, hell you don't lose them if you don't listen to your patron. Once the deal is made it's permanent, the DnD beyond guys even talk about that in there videos about patrons. Your not a cleric s your powers are not bound by your worship or loyalty. that being said keeping on good terms with your patron is a good idea, but the question is not my DM made me change my alignment what should I do.