It is easily as reasonable as your explanation as why someone would give away all their stuff.
Its not Dominate Person, no matter how good your two sentences are. I mean, if your DM says Suggestion can be used for unreasonable things just be prepared for the next BBEG being 4 3rd level Wizards just using Suggestion to force you to kill your teammates. Does that sound like fun to you?
Suggestion in a power sense, is 2nd level. It’s basically a Charm Person but doesn’t offer any Charisma check to the request as long as it’s reasonable. And then compare it to other Enchantment spells of the same level and 3rd level.
Then yeah, go ahead and petition your DM and have fun! I wouldn’t touch that campaign with a ten foot pole haha
It is easily as reasonable as your explanation as why someone would give away all their stuff.
Its not Dominate Person, no matter how good your two sentences are. I mean, if your DM says Suggestion can be used for unreasonable things just be prepared for the next BBEG being 4 3rd level Wizards just using Suggestion to force you to kill your teammates. Does that sound like fun to you?
Suggestion in a power sense, is 2nd level. It’s basically a Charm Person but doesn’t offer any Charisma check to the request as long as it’s reasonable. And then compare it to other Enchantment spells of the same level and 3rd level.
Then yeah, go ahead and petition your DM and have fun! I wouldn’t touch that campaign with a ten foot pole haha
And likewise I wouldn't touch your campaign where the DM says no to everything with shoddy reasoning.
Its not Dominate Person, no matter how good your two sentences are. I mean, if your DM says Suggestion can be used for unreasonable things just be prepared for the next BBEG being 4 3rd level Wizards just using Suggestion to force you to kill your teammates. Does that sound like fun to you?
Suggestion automatically fails if the suggestion is obviously harmful. Using Suggestion to force you to kill your teammates without violating that restriction will be challenging at best.
Its not Dominate Person, no matter how good your two sentences are. I mean, if your DM says Suggestion can be used for unreasonable things just be prepared for the next BBEG being 4 3rd level Wizards just using Suggestion to force you to kill your teammates. Does that sound like fun to you?
Suggestion automatically fails if the suggestion is obviously harmful. Using Suggestion to force you to kill your teammates without violating that restriction will be challenging at best.
Well, I mean - if MyDudeicus completely disregards the previous sentence “reasonable”, it stands to reason he’d also disregard the sentence after.
Well, I mean - if MyDudeicus completely disregards the previous sentence “reasonable”, it stands to reason he’d also disregard the sentence after.
There is no sentence specifying that the suggestion be reasonable. This is the sentence: The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action soundreasonable. (emphasis mine) The only clarity on what the words " sound reasonable" mean is that the following sentence about harmfulness may be, contextually, what the RAI is for "sounds reasonable", and likewise, an explicitly offered valid suggestion is telling a knight to give her warhorse away, establishing that the dictionary definition of reasonable is very clearly not at play. For certain, your mileage will vary by GM, and under some GMs, Suggestion will be a worthless spell because literally no Suggestion will pass muster, making it even worse than Witch Bolt.
Its not Dominate Person, no matter how good your two sentences are. I mean, if your DM says Suggestion can be used for unreasonable things just be prepared for the next BBEG being 4 3rd level Wizards just using Suggestion to force you to kill your teammates. Does that sound like fun to you?
Suggestion automatically fails if the suggestion is obviously harmful. Using Suggestion to force you to kill your teammates without violating that restriction will be challenging at best.
Well, I mean - if MyDudeicus completely disregards the previous sentence “reasonable”, it stands to reason he’d also disregard the sentence after.
I never said it would be used to directly attack your comrades. I just said it does not have to be reasonable.
“Your party has been charmed. Help me restrain them so that we can get them dispelled” is not obviously harmful.
just saying
”Your party has been charmed, kill them” is.
Though, “you’ve got a parasite in your ear, probably picked up during your recent dungeon crawl, and over time you will hear an increasingly worse ringing noise” followed a few days later with, “this herbal medicine will heal your hearing, drink it three times a day for the next week” where the medicine is actually a lethal poison might be more subtle.
“Your party has been charmed. Help me restrain them so that we can get them dispelled” is not obviously harmful.
just saying
”Your party has been charmed, kill them” is.
Though, “you’ve got a parasite in your ear, probably picked up during your recent dungeon crawl, and over time you will hear an increasingly worse ringing noise” followed a few days later with, “this herbal medicine will heal your hearing, drink it three times a day for the next week” where the medicine is actually a lethal poison might be more subtle.
I think you're conflating the sounds reasonable constraint with the obviously harmful constraint, which may be a reasonable conflation. It's very confusing how much the RAI is that these two rules be joined together.
But RAW, an obviously harmful suggestion fails even if the harm sounds reasonable. Whether or not restraint qualifies as harm is a fine question indeed. The spell's example of giving a horse away causes the target financial harm, and no explanation whatsoever is offered how the suggestion gets around the harm restriction.
Also, you're making the spell too powerful. "Your party has been charmed." doesn't do anything, and neither does "You've got a parasite in your ear." Statements of fact in a suggestion spell do absolutely nothing - only suggestions of a course of activity do. For example, this is actually a legal suggestion, it's just up to the GM how well it would work: "Convince yourself you have a parasite in your ear." So is "Convince yourself your party has been charmed, and you need to restrain them to help them."
You are assuming that a Wizard can’t embed a Deception into a Suggestion. “You have.a parasite in your ear” is just a lie. There is no magic compelling the target to believe it. HOWEVER, the fact that the target will hear an increasingly worsening ringing in his ear, as was predicted, will predispose the target to believe the lie. This is what is called “pretext” and is a pretty common technique in social engineering.
Note that it isn’t even required for the target to believe he has an ear parasite when he is told he does. He just has to hear the (non-magical) suggestion (small “s”) that he does. The Suggestion (big “S”) of hearing ringing in his ear will influence his susceptibility to the suggestion (small “s”).
“Your party has been charmed. Help me restrain them so that we can get them dispelled” is not obviously harmful.
just saying
”Your party has been charmed, kill them” is.
Though, “you’ve got a parasite in your ear, probably picked up during your recent dungeon crawl, and over time you will hear an increasingly worse ringing noise” followed a few days later with, “this herbal medicine will heal your hearing, drink it three times a day for the next week” where the medicine is actually a lethal poison might be more subtle.
Maybe. I'd say asking someone to engage in combat whether it is to restrain or kill is obviously harmful. You generally don't get out of fights unscathed. I could see a DM ruling though that it is not automatic harm like the examples of stabbing themselves. You in theory may fight and never come close to get hit. So it could work. That would be questionable imo.
You are assuming that a Wizard can’t embed a Deception into a Suggestion. “You have.a parasite in your ear” is just a lie. There is no magic compelling the target to believe it. HOWEVER, the fact that the target will hear an increasingly worsening ringing in his ear, as was predicted, will predispose the target to believe the lie. This is what is called “pretext” and is a pretty common technique in social engineering.
Note that it isn’t even required for the target to believe he has an ear parasite when he is told he does. He just has to hear the (non-magical) suggestion (small “s”) that he does. The Suggestion (big “S”) of hearing ringing in his ear will influence his susceptibility to the suggestion (small “s”).
You can't Suggest that someone hear a ringing in their ears and have it work as intended - what will happen is the target will set about finding a ringing to listen to. Suggestion doesn't grant the target superhumanoid powers to hear false sounds, it only coerces them to pursue a course of action.
You are assuming that a Wizard can’t embed a Deception into a Suggestion. “You have.a parasite in your ear” is just a lie. There is no magic compelling the target to believe it. HOWEVER, the fact that the target will hear an increasingly worsening ringing in his ear, as was predicted, will predispose the target to believe the lie. This is what is called “pretext” and is a pretty common technique in social engineering.
Note that it isn’t even required for the target to believe he has an ear parasite when he is told he does. He just has to hear the (non-magical) suggestion (small “s”) that he does. The Suggestion (big “S”) of hearing ringing in his ear will influence his susceptibility to the suggestion (small “s”).
You can't Suggest that someone hear a ringing in their ears and have it work as intended - what will happen is the target will set about finding a ringing to listen to. Suggestion doesn't grant the target superhumanoid powers to hear false sounds, it only coerces them to pursue a course of action.
The spell RAW says, “On a failed save, it pursues the course of action you described to the best of its ability”
In this case, the course of action is hearing a ringing. It makes every effort to hear a ringing and so it hears it, purely psychosomatically.
You are assuming that a Wizard can’t embed a Deception into a Suggestion. “You have.a parasite in your ear” is just a lie. There is no magic compelling the target to believe it. HOWEVER, the fact that the target will hear an increasingly worsening ringing in his ear, as was predicted, will predispose the target to believe the lie. This is what is called “pretext” and is a pretty common technique in social engineering.
Note that it isn’t even required for the target to believe he has an ear parasite when he is told he does. He just has to hear the (non-magical) suggestion (small “s”) that he does. The Suggestion (big “S”) of hearing ringing in his ear will influence his susceptibility to the suggestion (small “s”).
You can't Suggest that someone hear a ringing in their ears and have it work as intended - what will happen is the target will set about finding a ringing to listen to. Suggestion doesn't grant the target superhumanoid powers to hear false sounds, it only coerces them to pursue a course of action.
The spell RAW says, “On a failed save, it pursues the course of action you described to the best of its ability”
In this case, the course of action is hearing a ringing. It makes every effort to hear a ringing and so it hears it, purely psychosomatically.
You just quoted the RAW disproving yourself. Try it yourself right now: try to just hear a ringing. As hard as you can. You'll fail, because it can't be done. You'll need to find a sound source to achieve it.
You are assuming that a Wizard can’t embed a Deception into a Suggestion. “You have.a parasite in your ear” is just a lie. There is no magic compelling the target to believe it. HOWEVER, the fact that the target will hear an increasingly worsening ringing in his ear, as was predicted, will predispose the target to believe the lie. This is what is called “pretext” and is a pretty common technique in social engineering.
Note that it isn’t even required for the target to believe he has an ear parasite when he is told he does. He just has to hear the (non-magical) suggestion (small “s”) that he does. The Suggestion (big “S”) of hearing ringing in his ear will influence his susceptibility to the suggestion (small “s”).
You can't Suggest that someone hear a ringing in their ears and have it work as intended - what will happen is the target will set about finding a ringing to listen to. Suggestion doesn't grant the target superhumanoid powers to hear false sounds, it only coerces them to pursue a course of action.
The spell RAW says, “On a failed save, it pursues the course of action you described to the best of its ability”
In this case, the course of action is hearing a ringing. It makes every effort to hear a ringing and so it hears it, purely psychosomatically.
You just quoted the RAW disproving yourself. Try it yourself right now: try to just hear a ringing. As hard as you can. You'll fail, because it can't be done. You'll need to find a sound source to achieve it.
Well, I mean - if MyDudeicus completely disregards the previous sentence “reasonable”, it stands to reason he’d also disregard the sentence after.
There is no sentence specifying that the suggestion be reasonable. This is the sentence: The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action soundreasonable. (emphasis mine) The only clarity on what the words " sound reasonable" mean is that the following sentence about harmfulness may be, contextually, what the RAI is for "sounds reasonable", and likewise, an explicitly offered valid suggestion is telling a knight to give her warhorse away, establishing that the dictionary definition of reasonable is very clearly not at play. For certain, your mileage will vary by GM, and under some GMs, Suggestion will be a worthless spell because literally no Suggestion will pass muster, making it even worse than Witch Bolt.
You can be pedantic if you like, but it also doesn’t say you can alter perception or influence their perceptions in any way. So technically to make something sound reasonable, you’d have to also make it fit entirely in their worldview without any influence at all on their personality.
And a knight giving their warhorse away, actually is reasonable. You’ll notice the specific example is a Knight, and a beggar - Knights traditionally being honorable and often pious, and a beggar being the most downtrodden of society. So, yes, sounding reasonable does fit the description entirely.
So do tell, what would a “suggestion” do in your world?
Quote from quindraco>>Also, you're making the spell too powerful. "Your party has been charmed." doesn't do anything, and neither does "You've got a parasite in your ear." Statements of fact in a suggestion spell do absolutely nothing - only suggestions of a course of activity do. For example, this is actually a legal suggestion, it's just up to the GM how well it would work: "Convince yourself you have a parasite in your ear." So is "Convince yourself your party has been charmed, and you need to restrain them to help them."
“Convince yourself” is not a course of action that sounds reasonable. If you said to someone “convince yourself of X”, it wouldn’t matter if they wanted to believe it or not, they cannot simply convince themselves of it. This is a truly banal way of trying to get around using the spell to distort reality and instead “convince yourself” reality is distorted.
Well, I mean - if MyDudeicus completely disregards the previous sentence “reasonable”, it stands to reason he’d also disregard the sentence after.
There is no sentence specifying that the suggestion be reasonable. This is the sentence: The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action soundreasonable. (emphasis mine) The only clarity on what the words " sound reasonable" mean is that the following sentence about harmfulness may be, contextually, what the RAI is for "sounds reasonable", and likewise, an explicitly offered valid suggestion is telling a knight to give her warhorse away, establishing that the dictionary definition of reasonable is very clearly not at play. For certain, your mileage will vary by GM, and under some GMs, Suggestion will be a worthless spell because literally no Suggestion will pass muster, making it even worse than Witch Bolt.
You can be pedantic if you like, but it also doesn’t say you can alter perception or influence their perceptions in any way. So technically to make something sound reasonable, you’d have to also make it fit entirely in their worldview without any influence at all on their personality.
And a knight giving their warhorse away, actually is reasonable. You’ll notice the specific example is a Knight, and a beggar - Knights traditionally being honorable and often pious, and a beggar being the most downtrodden of society. So, yes, sounding reasonable does fit the description entirely.
So do tell, what would a “suggestion” do in your world?
Giving a horse to a beggar is by no stretch of the imagination reasonable. At best, the beggar lacks the resources to take care of the horse. At worse, it will provoke thieves to steal the horse from the beggar possibly getting the beggar killed in the process.
Well, I mean - if MyDudeicus completely disregards the previous sentence “reasonable”, it stands to reason he’d also disregard the sentence after.
There is no sentence specifying that the suggestion be reasonable. This is the sentence: The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action soundreasonable. (emphasis mine) The only clarity on what the words " sound reasonable" mean is that the following sentence about harmfulness may be, contextually, what the RAI is for "sounds reasonable", and likewise, an explicitly offered valid suggestion is telling a knight to give her warhorse away, establishing that the dictionary definition of reasonable is very clearly not at play. For certain, your mileage will vary by GM, and under some GMs, Suggestion will be a worthless spell because literally no Suggestion will pass muster, making it even worse than Witch Bolt.
You can be pedantic if you like, but it also doesn’t say you can alter perception or influence their perceptions in any way. So technically to make something sound reasonable, you’d have to also make it fit entirely in their worldview without any influence at all on their personality.
And a knight giving their warhorse away, actually is reasonable. You’ll notice the specific example is a Knight, and a beggar - Knights traditionally being honorable and often pious, and a beggar being the most downtrodden of society. So, yes, sounding reasonable does fit the description entirely.
So do tell, what would a “suggestion” do in your world?
Giving a horse to a beggar is by no stretch of the imagination reasonable. At best, the beggar lacks the resources to take care of the horse. At worse, it will provoke thieves to steal the horse from the beggar possibly getting the beggar killed in the process.
Literally the first link when you type Knight virtues
The Knightly Virtues
Courage.
Justice.
Mercy.
Generosity.
Faith.
Nobility.
Hope.
It is absolutely more reasonable that a generous knight would give a beggar a horse, than an average soldier give a random villager a horse.
Why do you think they chose a Knight, and a beggar? And not a soldier and a villager in their example? Or a powerful evil Wizard giving his most prized staff to your party member because you *convinced* him that the staff is actually a snake? Because it sounds at least partially *reasonable*.
Pedantic reading of the rules or not, a 2nd level spell should never be Dominate Person with “cool wording tricks”. Hold Person is also a 2nd level spell - has a Wisdom save just like Suggestion, and if you can use fancy words to convince them they’re actually paralyzed, lasts 8 hours without a save each round.
At any point, it seems we’ve picked our sides and are not amenable to any argument. Rule it how you like in your games and have fun!
Its not Dominate Person, no matter how good your two sentences are. I mean, if your DM says Suggestion can be used for unreasonable things just be prepared for the next BBEG being 4 3rd level Wizards just using Suggestion to force you to kill your teammates. Does that sound like fun to you?
Suggestion in a power sense, is 2nd level. It’s basically a Charm Person but doesn’t offer any Charisma check to the request as long as it’s reasonable. And then compare it to other Enchantment spells of the same level and 3rd level.
Then yeah, go ahead and petition your DM and have fun! I wouldn’t touch that campaign with a ten foot pole haha
And likewise I wouldn't touch your campaign where the DM says no to everything with shoddy reasoning.
Suggestion automatically fails if the suggestion is obviously harmful. Using Suggestion to force you to kill your teammates without violating that restriction will be challenging at best.
Well, I mean - if MyDudeicus completely disregards the previous sentence “reasonable”, it stands to reason he’d also disregard the sentence after.
There is no sentence specifying that the suggestion be reasonable. This is the sentence: The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. (emphasis mine) The only clarity on what the words " sound reasonable" mean is that the following sentence about harmfulness may be, contextually, what the RAI is for "sounds reasonable", and likewise, an explicitly offered valid suggestion is telling a knight to give her warhorse away, establishing that the dictionary definition of reasonable is very clearly not at play. For certain, your mileage will vary by GM, and under some GMs, Suggestion will be a worthless spell because literally no Suggestion will pass muster, making it even worse than Witch Bolt.
I never said it would be used to directly attack your comrades. I just said it does not have to be reasonable.
“Your party has been charmed. Help me restrain them so that we can get them dispelled” is not obviously harmful.
just saying
”Your party has been charmed, kill them” is.
Though, “you’ve got a parasite in your ear, probably picked up during your recent dungeon crawl, and over time you will hear an increasingly worse ringing noise” followed a few days later with, “this herbal medicine will heal your hearing, drink it three times a day for the next week” where the medicine is actually a lethal poison might be more subtle.
I think you're conflating the sounds reasonable constraint with the obviously harmful constraint, which may be a reasonable conflation. It's very confusing how much the RAI is that these two rules be joined together.
But RAW, an obviously harmful suggestion fails even if the harm sounds reasonable. Whether or not restraint qualifies as harm is a fine question indeed. The spell's example of giving a horse away causes the target financial harm, and no explanation whatsoever is offered how the suggestion gets around the harm restriction.
Also, you're making the spell too powerful. "Your party has been charmed." doesn't do anything, and neither does "You've got a parasite in your ear." Statements of fact in a suggestion spell do absolutely nothing - only suggestions of a course of activity do. For example, this is actually a legal suggestion, it's just up to the GM how well it would work: "Convince yourself you have a parasite in your ear." So is "Convince yourself your party has been charmed, and you need to restrain them to help them."
You are assuming that a Wizard can’t embed a Deception into a Suggestion. “You have.a parasite in your ear” is just a lie. There is no magic compelling the target to believe it. HOWEVER, the fact that the target will hear an increasingly worsening ringing in his ear, as was predicted, will predispose the target to believe the lie. This is what is called “pretext” and is a pretty common technique in social engineering.
Note that it isn’t even required for the target to believe he has an ear parasite when he is told he does. He just has to hear the (non-magical) suggestion (small “s”) that he does. The Suggestion (big “S”) of hearing ringing in his ear will influence his susceptibility to the suggestion (small “s”).
Maybe. I'd say asking someone to engage in combat whether it is to restrain or kill is obviously harmful. You generally don't get out of fights unscathed. I could see a DM ruling though that it is not automatic harm like the examples of stabbing themselves. You in theory may fight and never come close to get hit. So it could work. That would be questionable imo.
You can't Suggest that someone hear a ringing in their ears and have it work as intended - what will happen is the target will set about finding a ringing to listen to. Suggestion doesn't grant the target superhumanoid powers to hear false sounds, it only coerces them to pursue a course of action.
The spell RAW says, “On a failed save, it pursues the course of action you described to the best of its ability”
In this case, the course of action is hearing a ringing. It makes every effort to hear a ringing and so it hears it, purely psychosomatically.
You just quoted the RAW disproving yourself. Try it yourself right now: try to just hear a ringing. As hard as you can. You'll fail, because it can't be done. You'll need to find a sound source to achieve it.
You might find the following educational.
https://www.britannica.com/science/psychosomatic-disorder
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6407646/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3200998/
as for why you didn’t do a simple Google search before posting, who knows?
You can be pedantic if you like, but it also doesn’t say you can alter perception or influence their perceptions in any way. So technically to make something sound reasonable, you’d have to also make it fit entirely in their worldview without any influence at all on their personality.
And a knight giving their warhorse away, actually is reasonable. You’ll notice the specific example is a Knight, and a beggar - Knights traditionally being honorable and often pious, and a beggar being the most downtrodden of society. So, yes, sounding reasonable does fit the description entirely.
So do tell, what would a “suggestion” do in your world?
“Convince yourself” is not a course of action that sounds reasonable. If you said to someone “convince yourself of X”, it wouldn’t matter if they wanted to believe it or not, they cannot simply convince themselves of it. This is a truly banal way of trying to get around using the spell to distort reality and instead “convince yourself” reality is distorted.
Giving a horse to a beggar is by no stretch of the imagination reasonable. At best, the beggar lacks the resources to take care of the horse. At worse, it will provoke thieves to steal the horse from the beggar possibly getting the beggar killed in the process.
Literally the first link when you type Knight virtues
It is absolutely more reasonable that a generous knight would give a beggar a horse, than an average soldier give a random villager a horse.
Why do you think they chose a Knight, and a beggar? And not a soldier and a villager in their example? Or a powerful evil Wizard giving his most prized staff to your party member because you *convinced* him that the staff is actually a snake? Because it sounds at least partially *reasonable*.
Pedantic reading of the rules or not, a 2nd level spell should never be Dominate Person with “cool wording tricks”. Hold Person is also a 2nd level spell - has a Wisdom save just like Suggestion, and if you can use fancy words to convince them they’re actually paralyzed, lasts 8 hours without a save each round.
At any point, it seems we’ve picked our sides and are not amenable to any argument. Rule it how you like in your games and have fun!
Suggestion is Jedi Mind Trick - "these aren't the droids you're looking for". "ok, move along"
"You will release captain Solo and bring the wookie to me." - "hahaha no"
That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.