I’m just wondering why there is no love for acid splash? I actually find it to be a pretty useful cantrip. It’s ranged and pseudo-aoe, acid isn’t commonly resisted or immune and Dex is one of the better to target saves. So, why does it get so little love?
DEX and WIS are the two hardest saves to stick. Once you get above 5th level, most enemies you encounter will be really good at one or the other, or they'll have a good enough CON that they're not scared to fail your DEX save.
The "pseudo-AOE" is questionable at best, since the targets have to be within 5 ft of each other, and above 5th level, most DMs will run their monsters to not clump up like that if the monster has an INT score high enough to put their own pants on in the morning.
The overwhelming majority of the time, it's a single target cantrip that uses d6 damage dice, making it one of the worst damage dealing cantrips.
Having 2 enemies clump up within 5 feet happens far more often than you might think.
I have used Acid Splash many times and very few have landed on a single target.
It's damage is 2d6 a lot of the time, 1d6 dealt to 2 creatures, which is great for picking off minions or low hp things.
After 5th level it is 2d6... against 2 creatures it's like half a fireball's worth of damage.
Inside buildings and structures, enemies clump up. Outside there might be terrain obstacles or other features that cause enemies to clump up. When any enemies move into melee they sometimes clump up around fighter-types. Sometimes enemies are doing something where they have to be near each other, clumping up. Anyone can do just about anything that will move someone and then enemies that weren't clumped up, become clumped up.
You won't always get 2 targets, but you will a lot of the time.
Besides if you're using this cantrip, 1 or 2 targets, you're probably just softening up the enemy.
Since it does more damage when it hits 2 targets and this won't always be the case, I would dodge or do something else when no enemies are within 5 feet of each other. But when they are the absolute best, bar none, cantrip for massive amounts of damage is ACID SPLASH!!!
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— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Acid Splash is a decent cantrip, maybe not one that is widely picked just because that it does require it to be somewhat situational to be better than other cantrips, but that doesn't make it bad. The requirement to have two creatures within 5 feet to hit both is a fairly easy requirement to fill. Though Weezel isn't wrong that DMs like to spread out enemies once adventurers gain access to spells like Fireball that can hit a huge area, it's still too common to have at least a couple of them standing with 5 feet of each other to gang up on an Adventurer (If they're Melee). So that isn't an issue at all.
The biggest draw back to it would have to be the Dex Save. Dex saves is one of the most common saving throws in the game and a good portion of the creatures you encounter will have proficiency in the saving throw. So when choosing damaging cantrips to use, most will pick Firebolt since you're probably more likely roll high enough to hit versus them rolling low enough to fail against Acid Splash. Toll the Dead is loved because, even though Wis Saves is the other most common saving throw, the idea of doing d12 damage against an injured target is too tempting for most to pass up. Not saying Toll the Dead is better, that is just the general thought process as far as I can see it.
Brian_Avery
Your post is very well put and thought out, but I am going to correct one thing you said because it is entirely false. A 5th level Acid Splash against two creatures is NOT anywhere close to half a fireball's worth of damage. Fireball does 8d6 damage when cast at it's lowest level, while Acid Splash only does 2d6.
Now hitting two creatures would basically give the spell an average damage output of 14, but you're comparing Fireball hitting a single creature versus Acid Splash hitting two. If you're going to make a comparison between the two spells like that the least you should do is compare damage in a like fashion. Fireball hitting two creatures does 56 damage on average, while Acid Splash only does 14 at 5th Level. Now comparing the range and area of effect Fireball versus Acid Splash and it is plain to see why they should never be compared together as they are completely different spells entirely.
Aside from that point, you argument was well thought out and presented.
Toll of the dead is a favorite because it's initial damage is often so high. It's not necessarily the best to cast if you get to go first. Which on things like Wizards and Clerics is somewhat rare thankfully. But aside from that. it's fail save damage is that of many of the mediocre damage cantrips that have riders that don't take effect if the save is made. So it's damage is as good as some other cantrips even if the save is failed and one of the best as far as cantrips go if the save is failed. Despite the fact that the spell targets one of the most common kinds of saves.
Acid splash gets similar damage but it's requirement is that it must be hitting 2 targets to do this. So in some ways it's better than it looks and more akin to Toll of the Dead in actual damage. But the caveat is that it's harder to meet the requirements to make it do so than Toll of the Dead and it still has the downside of being against one of the most common save proficiencies in the game as well. If it either didn't need two targets or it was against a rarer save it would probably be considered a lot more highly.
That being Said when you can get it's conditions to work. Acid splash is a pretty decent cantrip.
I'm currently playing a character with acid as one of the main damage types, sorcerer not a wizard mind you, but Acid Splash was an obvious choice for a cantrip. While it's fair to say that it's not amazing if your enemies don't clump up, I have rarely found that to be a problem in the past, so expect to get two targets most of the time with it.
I think it's a solid choice for a save-based cantrip to go alongside an attack cantrip, as really the only other ranged Dexterity save cantrip is Create Bonfire (which I also like, but requires concentration, and fire is a more resisted damage type), as most classes can't take Sacred Flame.
Of course if your intended character theme leaves you free to pick among Wisdom or Intelligence based save cantrips then some of those are good too, Toll the Dead is a popular choice for its raw single-target damage, but I'd say Acid Splash is actually competitive with it, as you should be able to target two enemies most of the time in my experience, in which case it has slightly better potential total damage (especially against full health targets), but it also isn't as save-or-suck, since both enemies need to save for you to deal no damage at all. Less of a concern on an evocation wizard of course, but might be worth keeping in mind on others.
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Good point on both having to make the save for Acid Splash to do nothing. Also for evocation wizards (and similar abilities) they deal their modifier bonus twice because it hits 2 targets. If you follow what I mean, they actually add it once to the roll but can hit 2 targets with it.
Another thing to consider is now that tasha's allows you to switch out a cantrip after a long rest, wizards can pick and plan which to use in upcoming situations... going to be fighting a bunch of kobolds or goblin, take Acid Splash or even Sword Burst but if you're going up against undead then Chill Touch can shine.
All wizards also have the biggest cantrip list to choose from (except for pact of the tome warlocks of course).
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— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
If you take the Magic Initiate feat at fourth level and take 2 cantrips off the druid list and the Goodberry spell, when you take a long rest can you switch out 1 of the druid cantrips for another?
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
If you take the Magic Initiate feat at fourth level and take 2 cantrips off the druid list and the Goodberry spell, when you take a long rest can you switch out 1 of the druid cantrips for another?
No you cannot. The wording of this optional rule is:
Cantrip Formulas (Optional)
At 3rd level, you have scribed a set of arcane formulas in your spellbook that you can use to formulate a cantrip in your mind. Whenever you finish a long rest and consult those formulas in your spellbook, you can replace one wizard cantrip you know with another cantrip from the wizard spell list.
The keywords here is wizard cantrip, since the cantrips you learned from Magic Initiate are druid cantrips and not wizard cantrips therefore I would say you cannot replace them.
I'm currently playing a character with acid as one of the main damage types, sorcerer not a wizard mind you, but Acid Splash was an obvious choice for a cantrip. While it's fair to say that it's not amazing if your enemies don't clump up, I have rarely found that to be a problem in the past, so expect to get two targets most of the time with it.
I think it's a solid choice for a save-based cantrip to go alongside an attack cantrip, as really the only other ranged Dexterity save cantrip is Create Bonfire (which I also like, but requires concentration, and fire is a more resisted damage type), as most classes can't take Sacred Flame.
Of course if your intended character theme leaves you free to pick among Wisdom or Intelligence based save cantrips then some of those are good too, Toll the Dead is a popular choice for its raw single-target damage, but I'd say Acid Splash is actually competitive with it, as you should be able to target two enemies most of the time in my experience, in which case it has slightly better potential total damage (especially against full health targets), but it also isn't as save-or-suck, since both enemies need to save for you to deal no damage at all. Less of a concern on an evocation wizard of course, but might be worth keeping in mind on others.
I always forget toll of the dead is a save or suck spell. I don't use it a whole lot. But i sometimes value cantrips on more than just the damage they do so that plays into it for me. The Riders on Cantrips are half the point of taking them which is something that a lot of people miss and there are some really good riders on different cantrips that I am often inclined to get value out of as much as possible for different builds. The Damage on a few of the cantrips is just there to make up for the fact that they don't have those riders attached to them but often more Effective damage can occur from various riders than the extra damage you get from the high damage cantrips.
Chill touch for example. I've had it's ability to stop healing be useful at nearly all levels including effectively blocking a Heal spell. It did save party members life against undead once but we had other ways to inflict disadvantage on it. that was just the one hit first. With this in mind it ends up being a case that while it's listed damage is average as far as cantrips go. It's unlisted damage from it's rider on any given round could effectively be the equivalent of anywhere between say 5 and 70 because of it denying healing to the creature in question. With the added advantage that it has high range as far as cantrips are concerned.
So what we end up with is that while most people analyze Cantrips primarily on the damage. What we should really be considering are the usefulness of many of the extra effects because while they might not be constant the may actually be decently significant in their own way given our build and our party makeup. When we do this. Some of the pure damage cantrips start falling a bit short despite their popularity.
Chill touch for example. I've had it's ability to stop healing be useful at nearly all levels including effectively blocking a Heal spell. It did save party members life against undead once but we had other ways to inflict disadvantage on it. that was just the one hit first. With this in mind it ends up being a case that while it's listed damage is average as far as cantrips go. It's unlisted damage from it's rider on any given round could effectively be the equivalent of anywhere between say 5 and 70 because of it denying healing to the creature in question. With the added advantage that it has high range as far as cantrips are concerned.
Yeah, I prefer Chill Touch to Toll the Dead overall, though one is an attack spell and the other is a save, so if you don't mind over-comitting to one damage type you might take both. Actually I have Chill Touch on the same sorcerer I mentioned (as it's an acid and necrotic mix) and it's a great cantrip. Being able to prevent healing is good, but I also love that it has an extra effect against undead (undead hit by it have disadvantage to attack you) so even against enemies that are most likely to have some necrotic resistance (though a lot don't) you still get a benefit. It's also arguably the best cantrip against Mythic enemies, as it seems in RAW to prevent them from healing into their second stage (I expect most DMs will bypass this, but if you're a stickler…)!
While acid splash doesn't have a rider effect, I still like it as a DEX save cantrip. The only other ones are Sacred Flame which most casters can't take, but ignores cover which is a nice effect, and Create Bonfire which has a rubbish name, but if you position it well you can get guaranteed damage then also use it for a little control (e.g- slap it in a doorway), though it takes concentration. Acid Splash is the damage dealer of the DEX cantrips, and against hordes and heavily armoured targets its a decent workhorse cantrip IMO.
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Chill touch for example. I've had it's ability to stop healing be useful at nearly all levels including effectively blocking a Heal spell. It did save party members life against undead once but we had other ways to inflict disadvantage on it. that was just the one hit first. With this in mind it ends up being a case that while it's listed damage is average as far as cantrips go. It's unlisted damage from it's rider on any given round could effectively be the equivalent of anywhere between say 5 and 70 because of it denying healing to the creature in question. With the added advantage that it has high range as far as cantrips are concerned.
Yeah, I prefer Chill Touch to Toll the Dead overall, though one is an attack spell and the other is a save, so if you don't mind over-comitting to one damage type you might take both. Actually I have Chill Touch on the same sorcerer I mentioned (as it's an acid and necrotic mix) and it's a great cantrip. Being able to prevent healing is good, but I also love that it has an extra effect against undead (undead hit by it have disadvantage to attack you) so even against enemies that are most likely to have some necrotic resistance (though a lot don't) you still get a benefit. It's also arguably the best cantrip against Mythic enemies, as it seems in RAW to prevent them from healing into their second stage (I expect most DMs will bypass this, but if you're a stickler…)!
While acid splash doesn't have a rider effect, I still like it as a DEX save cantrip. The only other ones are Sacred Flame which most casters can't take, but ignores cover which is a nice effect, and Create Bonfire which has a rubbish name, but if you position it well you can get guaranteed damage then also use it for a little control (e.g- slap it in a doorway), though it takes concentration. Acid Splash is the damage dealer of the DEX cantrips, and against hordes and heavily armoured targets its a decent workhorse cantrip IMO.
Frost Bite and Mind Sliver tend to be my go to save cantrips these days. Frost bite because it's only one attack but it can impose disadvantage for one weapon attack on anything I know will make an attack roll... and hopefully doesn't have too much con... And mind sliver both for it's rider and it's rare save type. Though my save cantrips have been known to change based upon what I'm creating. Though i do wish Sacred flame was commonly on the list because I do like the mini-spell sniper effect it has. Up until Mind Sliver I don't think I've really used the same save spell twice in a row in creating characters.
I normally take Firebolt for 3 reasons, reason 1 it does decent damage, reason 2 it is not a save or suck spell and reason 3 it can set things on fire without using a spell slot. You would be amazed the amount of things that are flammable that you can use to your advantage.
I normally take Firebolt for 3 reasons, reason 1 it does decent damage, reason 2 it is not a save or suck spell and reason 3 it can set things on fire without using a spell slot. You would be amazed the amount of things that are flammable that you can use to your advantage.
It is save or suck. It's just a different kind of save or suck. It's based on you making an attack roll on whether it sucks rather than the enemy making a saving throw. Almost everything about attack rolls with the exception of a few certain abilities are automatically save or suck in nature.
And the setting things on fire is middling. While you can burn a lot that is not actually always useful unless the dm heavily indulges it under a lot of circumstances. And it can't light people or things they are wearing or holding on fire because of the way the spell is written. This actually takes a lot of things that people would really want to burn out of the realm of effectiveness for firebolt.
I normally take Firebolt for 3 reasons, reason 1 it does decent damage, reason 2 it is not a save or suck spell and reason 3 it can set things on fire without using a spell slot. You would be amazed the amount of things that are flammable that you can use to your advantage.
It is save or suck. It's just a different kind of save or suck. It's based on you making an attack roll on whether it sucks rather than the enemy making a saving throw. Almost everything about attack rolls with the exception of a few certain abilities are automatically save or suck in nature.
And the setting things on fire is middling. While you can burn a lot that is not actually always useful unless the dm heavily indulges it under a lot of circumstances. And it can't light people or things they are wearing or holding on fire because of the way the spell is written. This actually takes a lot of things that people would really want to burn out of the realm of effectiveness for firebolt.
Is everything save or suck? Well I guess you can kinda say that it is but you know what I am talking about when I say its not a save or suck spell so why even bother arguing that point? As to setting things on fire that actually depends on the Player not the DM. If you find creative ways to use your Firebolt to ignite things such as a firetrap that you built with a flammable liquid, no DM is going to flat out say no to that. There are also certain spells that you can ignite like Web and it is also much cooler to start a campfire with Firebolt than flint. Anyway this thread is about why people take other cantrips over Acid Splash and I was merely offering my opinion, there was really no need to try and shred my opinions to pieces.
I normally take Firebolt for 3 reasons, reason 1 it does decent damage, reason 2 it is not a save or suck spell and reason 3 it can set things on fire without using a spell slot. You would be amazed the amount of things that are flammable that you can use to your advantage.
It is save or suck. It's just a different kind of save or suck. It's based on you making an attack roll on whether it sucks rather than the enemy making a saving throw. Almost everything about attack rolls with the exception of a few certain abilities are automatically save or suck in nature.
And the setting things on fire is middling. While you can burn a lot that is not actually always useful unless the dm heavily indulges it under a lot of circumstances. And it can't light people or things they are wearing or holding on fire because of the way the spell is written. This actually takes a lot of things that people would really want to burn out of the realm of effectiveness for firebolt.
Is everything save or suck? Well I guess you can kinda say that it is but you know what I am talking about when I say its not a save or suck spell so why even bother arguing that point? As to setting things on fire that actually depends on the Player not the DM. If you find creative ways to use your Firebolt to ignite things such as a firetrap that you built with a flammable liquid, no DM is going to flat out say no to that. There are also certain spells that you can ignite like Web and it is also much cooler to start a campfire with Firebolt than flint. Anyway this thread is about why people take other cantrips over Acid Splash and I was merely offering my opinion, there was really no need to try and shred my opinions to pieces.
No. Save or Suck is just community parlance for "All or Nothing." It got phrased the way it did because Making Saves against things has traditionally been the best ways to make spells either work or do nothing.
So no. I do not necessarily know what you are talking about. Because your not applying it in this fashion. Because Attack Roll Spells work exactly in the fashion of All or nothing. If I understood what you were talking about. I wouldn't have corrected your usage of it that was trying to pretend that attack rolls weren't exactly this.
Also Web being Ignitable is actually an Exception Case. Most spells that people try to light on fire, such as grease, are not actually flammable by the writing of the spell. An Extremely few spells make this distinction and when they do they have rules in place for it such as Web does.
Also no. Lighting A Campfire with Fire Bolt isn't cooler. it's edgier and it gets old very fast. And there are so many other spells that can do this too. Some of them even do it in "Cooler" fashion if you subjectively want to call it cool because the campfire just combusts into flame without having to throw anything at it or even technically make a roll to do it. It just happens. Fire Bolt is almost a waste for this purpose because of it's range and such when it comes to the purpose of lighting Campfires.
I wouldn't normally describe an attack spell as save-or-suck; I usually use it to mean spells where there is no effect at all if the save is passed (versus half damage and such). Attack spells are less save or suck because there are a bunch of ways to boost attack rolls to make them a lot less likely to fail, but most of the time whether or not a save-or-suck fails is up to the target; even some of the common save debuffs are relatively small (d4's like Bane, which itself requires a save) so it's harder to tip the scale without more specific combos/builds, whereas boosting attacks is comparatively easier (Bless is automatic and boosts your attacks and saves, a whole load of effects can grant persistent or temporary advantage and so-on).
The main problem with fire bolt is that fire is one of the more commonly resisted damage types; in general I prefer to have a couple of uncommonly resisted types so I should always have a fallback, which is why acid and necrotic seem like they should work quite well (any mix of acid, force, necrotic, psychic and/or radiant should do well). That said, Fire Bolt is a perfectly good attack cantrip, as the damage is good and lighting stuff at range is handy, but the things you should be lighting are environmental items like curtains, dry wood etc., ideally setting up stuff to burn as dangerous obstructions/road-blocks etc. This is all stuff most DMs will probably allow if you have a tinderbox and a fire arrow or crossbow bolt or such though, so it's not something your group will necessarily be without if you don't have that cantrip.
It's a perfectly good attack workhorse, especially on an elemental build (Elemental Adept). That said, I wouldn't really compare it to Acid Splash as they're not really competing; most mages want both an attack cantrip, and a save cantrip, as your save cantrips will usually have a better chance against higher AC targets.
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I’m just wondering why there is no love for acid splash? I actually find it to be a pretty useful cantrip. It’s ranged and pseudo-aoe, acid isn’t commonly resisted or immune and Dex is one of the better to target saves. So, why does it get so little love?
DEX and WIS are the two hardest saves to stick. Once you get above 5th level, most enemies you encounter will be really good at one or the other, or they'll have a good enough CON that they're not scared to fail your DEX save.
The "pseudo-AOE" is questionable at best, since the targets have to be within 5 ft of each other, and above 5th level, most DMs will run their monsters to not clump up like that if the monster has an INT score high enough to put their own pants on in the morning.
The overwhelming majority of the time, it's a single target cantrip that uses d6 damage dice, making it one of the worst damage dealing cantrips.
Having 2 enemies clump up within 5 feet happens far more often than you might think.
I have used Acid Splash many times and very few have landed on a single target.
It's damage is 2d6 a lot of the time, 1d6 dealt to 2 creatures, which is great for picking off minions or low hp things.
After 5th level it is 2d6... against 2 creatures it's like half a fireball's worth of damage.
Inside buildings and structures, enemies clump up. Outside there might be terrain obstacles or other features that cause enemies to clump up. When any enemies move into melee they sometimes clump up around fighter-types. Sometimes enemies are doing something where they have to be near each other, clumping up. Anyone can do just about anything that will move someone and then enemies that weren't clumped up, become clumped up.
You won't always get 2 targets, but you will a lot of the time.
Besides if you're using this cantrip, 1 or 2 targets, you're probably just softening up the enemy.
Tier 1 comparison:
Toll the dead Acid Splash
4.5 (6.5 if damaged) 3.5 (7 if 2 enemies within 5 feet)
Tier 2 comparison:
9 (13) 7 (14)
Tier 3 comparison:
13.5 (19.5) 10.5 (21)
Tier 4 comparison:
18 (26) 14 (28)
Since it does more damage when it hits 2 targets and this won't always be the case, I would dodge or do something else when no enemies are within 5 feet of each other. But when they are the absolute best, bar none, cantrip for massive amounts of damage is ACID SPLASH!!!
Acid Splash is a decent cantrip, maybe not one that is widely picked just because that it does require it to be somewhat situational to be better than other cantrips, but that doesn't make it bad. The requirement to have two creatures within 5 feet to hit both is a fairly easy requirement to fill. Though Weezel isn't wrong that DMs like to spread out enemies once adventurers gain access to spells like Fireball that can hit a huge area, it's still too common to have at least a couple of them standing with 5 feet of each other to gang up on an Adventurer (If they're Melee). So that isn't an issue at all.
The biggest draw back to it would have to be the Dex Save. Dex saves is one of the most common saving throws in the game and a good portion of the creatures you encounter will have proficiency in the saving throw. So when choosing damaging cantrips to use, most will pick Firebolt since you're probably more likely roll high enough to hit versus them rolling low enough to fail against Acid Splash. Toll the Dead is loved because, even though Wis Saves is the other most common saving throw, the idea of doing d12 damage against an injured target is too tempting for most to pass up. Not saying Toll the Dead is better, that is just the general thought process as far as I can see it.
Brian_Avery
Your post is very well put and thought out, but I am going to correct one thing you said because it is entirely false. A 5th level Acid Splash against two creatures is NOT anywhere close to half a fireball's worth of damage. Fireball does 8d6 damage when cast at it's lowest level, while Acid Splash only does 2d6.
Now hitting two creatures would basically give the spell an average damage output of 14, but you're comparing Fireball hitting a single creature versus Acid Splash hitting two. If you're going to make a comparison between the two spells like that the least you should do is compare damage in a like fashion. Fireball hitting two creatures does 56 damage on average, while Acid Splash only does 14 at 5th Level. Now comparing the range and area of effect Fireball versus Acid Splash and it is plain to see why they should never be compared together as they are completely different spells entirely.
Aside from that point, you argument was well thought out and presented.
I like Acid Splash.
Don't use this spell if you wear leather armor........ it can ruin your armor AC in a long term.
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Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
Because now you have fantastic options like Mind Sliver, Minor Illusion, Chill Touch (AC > Saving throw) and Toll the Dead.
Toll of the dead is a favorite because it's initial damage is often so high. It's not necessarily the best to cast if you get to go first. Which on things like Wizards and Clerics is somewhat rare thankfully. But aside from that. it's fail save damage is that of many of the mediocre damage cantrips that have riders that don't take effect if the save is made. So it's damage is as good as some other cantrips even if the save is failed and one of the best as far as cantrips go if the save is failed. Despite the fact that the spell targets one of the most common kinds of saves.
Acid splash gets similar damage but it's requirement is that it must be hitting 2 targets to do this. So in some ways it's better than it looks and more akin to Toll of the Dead in actual damage. But the caveat is that it's harder to meet the requirements to make it do so than Toll of the Dead and it still has the downside of being against one of the most common save proficiencies in the game as well. If it either didn't need two targets or it was against a rarer save it would probably be considered a lot more highly.
That being Said when you can get it's conditions to work. Acid splash is a pretty decent cantrip.
I'm currently playing a character with acid as one of the main damage types, sorcerer not a wizard mind you, but Acid Splash was an obvious choice for a cantrip. While it's fair to say that it's not amazing if your enemies don't clump up, I have rarely found that to be a problem in the past, so expect to get two targets most of the time with it.
I think it's a solid choice for a save-based cantrip to go alongside an attack cantrip, as really the only other ranged Dexterity save cantrip is Create Bonfire (which I also like, but requires concentration, and fire is a more resisted damage type), as most classes can't take Sacred Flame.
Of course if your intended character theme leaves you free to pick among Wisdom or Intelligence based save cantrips then some of those are good too, Toll the Dead is a popular choice for its raw single-target damage, but I'd say Acid Splash is actually competitive with it, as you should be able to target two enemies most of the time in my experience, in which case it has slightly better potential total damage (especially against full health targets), but it also isn't as save-or-suck, since both enemies need to save for you to deal no damage at all. Less of a concern on an evocation wizard of course, but might be worth keeping in mind on others.
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Good point on both having to make the save for Acid Splash to do nothing. Also for evocation wizards (and similar abilities) they deal their modifier bonus twice because it hits 2 targets. If you follow what I mean, they actually add it once to the roll but can hit 2 targets with it.
Another thing to consider is now that tasha's allows you to switch out a cantrip after a long rest, wizards can pick and plan which to use in upcoming situations... going to be fighting a bunch of kobolds or goblin, take Acid Splash or even Sword Burst but if you're going up against undead then Chill Touch can shine.
All wizards also have the biggest cantrip list to choose from (except for pact of the tome warlocks of course).
(side note)
If you take the Magic Initiate feat at fourth level and take 2 cantrips off the druid list and the Goodberry spell, when you take a long rest can you switch out 1 of the druid cantrips for another?
No you cannot. The wording of this optional rule is:
Cantrip Formulas (Optional)
At 3rd level, you have scribed a set of arcane formulas in your spellbook that you can use to formulate a cantrip in your mind. Whenever you finish a long rest and consult those formulas in your spellbook, you can replace one wizard cantrip you know with another cantrip from the wizard spell list.
The keywords here is wizard cantrip, since the cantrips you learned from Magic Initiate are druid cantrips and not wizard cantrips therefore I would say you cannot replace them.
I always forget toll of the dead is a save or suck spell. I don't use it a whole lot. But i sometimes value cantrips on more than just the damage they do so that plays into it for me. The Riders on Cantrips are half the point of taking them which is something that a lot of people miss and there are some really good riders on different cantrips that I am often inclined to get value out of as much as possible for different builds. The Damage on a few of the cantrips is just there to make up for the fact that they don't have those riders attached to them but often more Effective damage can occur from various riders than the extra damage you get from the high damage cantrips.
Chill touch for example. I've had it's ability to stop healing be useful at nearly all levels including effectively blocking a Heal spell. It did save party members life against undead once but we had other ways to inflict disadvantage on it. that was just the one hit first. With this in mind it ends up being a case that while it's listed damage is average as far as cantrips go. It's unlisted damage from it's rider on any given round could effectively be the equivalent of anywhere between say 5 and 70 because of it denying healing to the creature in question. With the added advantage that it has high range as far as cantrips are concerned.
So what we end up with is that while most people analyze Cantrips primarily on the damage. What we should really be considering are the usefulness of many of the extra effects because while they might not be constant the may actually be decently significant in their own way given our build and our party makeup. When we do this. Some of the pure damage cantrips start falling a bit short despite their popularity.
Yeah, I prefer Chill Touch to Toll the Dead overall, though one is an attack spell and the other is a save, so if you don't mind over-comitting to one damage type you might take both. Actually I have Chill Touch on the same sorcerer I mentioned (as it's an acid and necrotic mix) and it's a great cantrip. Being able to prevent healing is good, but I also love that it has an extra effect against undead (undead hit by it have disadvantage to attack you) so even against enemies that are most likely to have some necrotic resistance (though a lot don't) you still get a benefit. It's also arguably the best cantrip against Mythic enemies, as it seems in RAW to prevent them from healing into their second stage (I expect most DMs will bypass this, but if you're a stickler…)!
While acid splash doesn't have a rider effect, I still like it as a DEX save cantrip. The only other ones are Sacred Flame which most casters can't take, but ignores cover which is a nice effect, and Create Bonfire which has a rubbish name, but if you position it well you can get guaranteed damage then also use it for a little control (e.g- slap it in a doorway), though it takes concentration. Acid Splash is the damage dealer of the DEX cantrips, and against hordes and heavily armoured targets its a decent workhorse cantrip IMO.
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Frost Bite and Mind Sliver tend to be my go to save cantrips these days. Frost bite because it's only one attack but it can impose disadvantage for one weapon attack on anything I know will make an attack roll... and hopefully doesn't have too much con... And mind sliver both for it's rider and it's rare save type. Though my save cantrips have been known to change based upon what I'm creating. Though i do wish Sacred flame was commonly on the list because I do like the mini-spell sniper effect it has. Up until Mind Sliver I don't think I've really used the same save spell twice in a row in creating characters.
I normally take Firebolt for 3 reasons, reason 1 it does decent damage, reason 2 it is not a save or suck spell and reason 3 it can set things on fire without using a spell slot. You would be amazed the amount of things that are flammable that you can use to your advantage.
It is save or suck. It's just a different kind of save or suck. It's based on you making an attack roll on whether it sucks rather than the enemy making a saving throw. Almost everything about attack rolls with the exception of a few certain abilities are automatically save or suck in nature.
And the setting things on fire is middling. While you can burn a lot that is not actually always useful unless the dm heavily indulges it under a lot of circumstances. And it can't light people or things they are wearing or holding on fire because of the way the spell is written. This actually takes a lot of things that people would really want to burn out of the realm of effectiveness for firebolt.
Is everything save or suck? Well I guess you can kinda say that it is but you know what I am talking about when I say its not a save or suck spell so why even bother arguing that point? As to setting things on fire that actually depends on the Player not the DM. If you find creative ways to use your Firebolt to ignite things such as a firetrap that you built with a flammable liquid, no DM is going to flat out say no to that. There are also certain spells that you can ignite like Web and it is also much cooler to start a campfire with Firebolt than flint. Anyway this thread is about why people take other cantrips over Acid Splash and I was merely offering my opinion, there was really no need to try and shred my opinions to pieces.
No. Save or Suck is just community parlance for "All or Nothing." It got phrased the way it did because Making Saves against things has traditionally been the best ways to make spells either work or do nothing.
So no. I do not necessarily know what you are talking about. Because your not applying it in this fashion. Because Attack Roll Spells work exactly in the fashion of All or nothing. If I understood what you were talking about. I wouldn't have corrected your usage of it that was trying to pretend that attack rolls weren't exactly this.
Also Web being Ignitable is actually an Exception Case. Most spells that people try to light on fire, such as grease, are not actually flammable by the writing of the spell. An Extremely few spells make this distinction and when they do they have rules in place for it such as Web does.
Also no. Lighting A Campfire with Fire Bolt isn't cooler. it's edgier and it gets old very fast. And there are so many other spells that can do this too. Some of them even do it in "Cooler" fashion if you subjectively want to call it cool because the campfire just combusts into flame without having to throw anything at it or even technically make a roll to do it. It just happens. Fire Bolt is almost a waste for this purpose because of it's range and such when it comes to the purpose of lighting Campfires.
I wouldn't normally describe an attack spell as save-or-suck; I usually use it to mean spells where there is no effect at all if the save is passed (versus half damage and such). Attack spells are less save or suck because there are a bunch of ways to boost attack rolls to make them a lot less likely to fail, but most of the time whether or not a save-or-suck fails is up to the target; even some of the common save debuffs are relatively small (d4's like Bane, which itself requires a save) so it's harder to tip the scale without more specific combos/builds, whereas boosting attacks is comparatively easier (Bless is automatic and boosts your attacks and saves, a whole load of effects can grant persistent or temporary advantage and so-on).
The main problem with fire bolt is that fire is one of the more commonly resisted damage types; in general I prefer to have a couple of uncommonly resisted types so I should always have a fallback, which is why acid and necrotic seem like they should work quite well (any mix of acid, force, necrotic, psychic and/or radiant should do well). That said, Fire Bolt is a perfectly good attack cantrip, as the damage is good and lighting stuff at range is handy, but the things you should be lighting are environmental items like curtains, dry wood etc., ideally setting up stuff to burn as dangerous obstructions/road-blocks etc. This is all stuff most DMs will probably allow if you have a tinderbox and a fire arrow or crossbow bolt or such though, so it's not something your group will necessarily be without if you don't have that cantrip.
It's a perfectly good attack workhorse, especially on an elemental build (Elemental Adept). That said, I wouldn't really compare it to Acid Splash as they're not really competing; most mages want both an attack cantrip, and a save cantrip, as your save cantrips will usually have a better chance against higher AC targets.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.