ok that didn’t work, anyway it wasn’t you saying it it was dudeicus I’ll see if I can load up the picks of stepping in lava and sampling lava later.
I don't think I said it was instant death or anything, I was using 4d10 as an example from adventures showing what heat level in the D&D world molten rock could be at. And that given fire bolt does comparable damage having it capable of damaging rocks isn't a stretch. DMs are free to rule however they want, but it seems a bit heavy handed to make almost all objects a wizard would choose outside of wood immune or resistant to fire.
My personal take is in most cases the AC and HP reflect their fire durability enough, just like how they show durability to bludgeoning damage etc. Wood wouldn't be inherently vulnerable in the takes x2 damage sense but something like kindling would. Though all wood may catch fire. Stone and metals wouldn't be resistant, like I said AC and HP show its durability already,. Maybe something like gemstones that are basically created by high heat and pressure would be resistant or immune.
… You cannot use the damage rolls as justification because a) many forms of environmental damage are actually way too weak (fall damage isn't that bad, lava damage is definitely too low since in reality the heat would kill you before you could even fall into it and so-on) but also b) you could argue that almost literally anything can melt stone on that basis. A fighter with a longbow for example can do the same (actually better) damage than a fire bolt in a single turn, but they still shouldn't be able to destroy a castle wall using only arrows.
It's also worth noting that the lava damage isn't the degree of energy required to create lava, it's the amount of damage you take for touching it, but again, it's far too low. Unless the player fell into the lava through some misunderstanding (in which case a DM should always show leniency), it really shouldn't be survivable without fire resistance at the very least.
Sorry you are right this was the line I was reacting to and it was Harravikk not you. And in at least one sense he is right you need some sort of fire resistance to survive going into lava. In the geologist’s case it was the Nomex fire retardant jump suit we all wore when flying out to work on the flows. In my case it was the 2 liters of ice water in my boot heating up n the boot and turning to steam as it soaked thru the leather of the boot that kept me safe.
ok that didn’t work, anyway it wasn’t you saying it it was dudeicus I’ll see if I can load up the picks of stepping in lava and sampling lava later.
I don't think I said it was instant death or anything, I was using 4d10 as an example from adventures showing what heat level in the D&D world molten rock could be at. And that given fire bolt does comparable damage having it capable of damaging rocks isn't a stretch. DMs are free to rule however they want, but it seems a bit heavy handed to make almost all objects a wizard would choose outside of wood immune or resistant to fire.
My personal take is in most cases the AC and HP reflect their fire durability enough, just like how they show durability to bludgeoning damage etc. Wood wouldn't be inherently vulnerable in the takes x2 damage sense but something like kindling would. Though all wood may catch fire. Stone and metals wouldn't be resistant, like I said AC and HP show its durability already,. Maybe something like gemstones that are basically created by high heat and pressure would be resistant or immune.
Your using false equivalence. The amount of damage isn't necessarily because of the heat. Just because some book gives Lava a similar damage because it's a low level campaign to what is the highest level of Firebolt 2 tiers higher does not make a similar level of heat and capability, nor does it make the similar level of continued exposure between the two of them.
Also. As I have told you. If you find lava in a high level campaign. It doesn't do just 4d10 of damage. I've seen it actually closer to 10d10 of damage for high level campaign stuff which is vastly more than what damage at 2 1/2 times more average damage from the lava.
Your using false equivalence. The amount of damage isn't necessarily because of the heat. Just because some book gives Lava a similar damage because it's a low level campaign to what is the highest level of Firebolt 2 tiers higher does not make a similar level of heat and capability, nor does it make the similar level of continued exposure between the two of them.
Also. As I have told you. If you find lava in a high level campaign. It doesn't do just 4d10 of damage. I've seen it actually closer to 10d10 of damage for high level campaign stuff which is vastly more than what damage at 2 1/2 times more average damage from the lava.
The damage is also nothing to do with how the lava was created; it's the damage done to other objects as a result of contact, but as others have pointed out lava doesn't melt rock (it can, but mostly it just covers it or goes around it) because lava is the stuff that escaped the furnace that created it, so it's actually rapidly cooling semi-liquid rock, as opposed to the still semi-liquid, and much hotter, magma.
Anyway, this is all very off topic and not at all to do with Acid Splash is definitely the best cantrip (except for Guidance and Prestidigitation) 😉
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Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
ok that didn’t work, anyway it wasn’t you saying it it was dudeicus I’ll see if I can load up the picks of stepping in lava and sampling lava later.
I don't think I said it was instant death or anything, I was using 4d10 as an example from adventures showing what heat level in the D&D world molten rock could be at. And that given fire bolt does comparable damage having it capable of damaging rocks isn't a stretch. DMs are free to rule however they want, but it seems a bit heavy handed to make almost all objects a wizard would choose outside of wood immune or resistant to fire.
My personal take is in most cases the AC and HP reflect their fire durability enough, just like how they show durability to bludgeoning damage etc. Wood wouldn't be inherently vulnerable in the takes x2 damage sense but something like kindling would. Though all wood may catch fire. Stone and metals wouldn't be resistant, like I said AC and HP show its durability already,. Maybe something like gemstones that are basically created by high heat and pressure would be resistant or immune.
Your using false equivalence. The amount of damage isn't necessarily because of the heat. Just because some book gives Lava a similar damage because it's a low level campaign to what is the highest level of Firebolt 2 tiers higher does not make a similar level of heat and capability, nor does it make the similar level of continued exposure between the two of them.
Also. As I have told you. If you find lava in a high level campaign. It doesn't do just 4d10 of damage. I've seen it actually closer to 10d10 of damage for high level campaign stuff which is vastly more than what damage at 2 1/2 times more average damage from the lava.
And I have seen it still around 4d10 in high level campaigns.
Your using false equivalence. The amount of damage isn't necessarily because of the heat. Just because some book gives Lava a similar damage because it's a low level campaign to what is the highest level of Firebolt 2 tiers higher does not make a similar level of heat and capability, nor does it make the similar level of continued exposure between the two of them.
Also. As I have told you. If you find lava in a high level campaign. It doesn't do just 4d10 of damage. I've seen it actually closer to 10d10 of damage for high level campaign stuff which is vastly more than what damage at 2 1/2 times more average damage from the lava.
The damage is also nothing to do with how the lava was created; it's the damage done to other objects as a result of contact, but as others have pointed out lava doesn't melt rock (it can, but mostly it just covers it or goes around it) because lava is the stuff that escaped the furnace that created it, so it's actually rapidly cooling semi-liquid rock, as opposed to the still semi-liquid, and much hotter, magma.
Anyway, this is all very off topic and not at all to do with Acid Splash is definitely the best cantrip (except for Guidance and Prestidigitation) 😉
No its not how it was created but it is still molten at those levels even if it is cooling down. Hey if you want to say no to your players over something like this have at it. I wont, and I don't think its a good call as the only reason to take firebolt is it effects objects and if you shut it down by making everything immune to fire you are screwing it over. The riders in other cantrips are far better than 1 more point of damage.
No its not how it was created but it is still molten at those levels even if it is cooling down.
The damage it's doing is the heat that's able to transfer out in that moment, but it still contains (and was created from) significantly more than that. To use a more mundane example; if you touch a hot pan and it burns you, it does so using only a fraction of the energy still contained within that pan, because the energy required to heat it enough to burn someone is higher than the amount of "burn damage" it deals per "turn" (touch).
This is why they aren't comparable; the fire damage lava does might be 4d10, but to actually create lava (melt stone) might required 40d10 or more, applied every turn for an hour; you're not going to get that out of a cantrip unless you use it to ignite a specialised furnace.
Hey if you want to say no to your players over something like this have at it. I wont, and I don't think its a good call as the only reason to take firebolt is it effects objects and if you shut it down by making everything immune to fire you are screwing it over. The riders in other cantrips are far better than 1 more point of damage.
I have never said that it should not effect objects; it should absolutely scorch things, break delicate objects and set things on fire, but you're talking about a completely different scale of damage when it comes to melting solid stone or metal with a cantrip.
Stone is one of the most resilient substances that occurs in nature, but it's also a good example of how different types of damage affect things differently; the easiest way to break a rock is to strike it with something harder than it (a stronger rock, a metal etc.) or use a focused point, drill etc., but it's very difficult to damage a rock with fire. You can also break rock with an explosion, but only if contained within the rock (the energy has nowhere else to go). But what fire is very good at is burning things that are combustible; if you stab a pool of oil it's unlikely to do anything, but throw fire at it and you're much more likely to get a reaction. Meanwhile some objects are equally susceptible to most damage; a painting can be damaged by nearly anything, a door might not ignite immediately, but it won't fare well for long against either fire or being struck etc.
And once again, this is off topic, I'm going to stop responding at this point.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I think a very important reason is that the 3 cantrips that a wizard start with Minor Illusion is pretty much a auto pick, your 2nd pick will most likely be another utility cantrip like Message or Mage Hand which leaves only 1 slot for a damage cantrip. At early levels I feel a attack roll cantrip is more likely to hit compared to a saving throw cantrip therefore spells like Firebolt and Chill Touch gets more love than Acid Splash. By the time level 4 rolls around and you get another cantrip you will most likely have access to a spell that can target and damage multiple enemies therefore you may be more interested in a saving throw cantrip that has a good rider effect or higher single target damage which again results in Acid Splash getting less love.
I think a very important reason is that the 3 cantrips that a wizard start with Minor Illusion is pretty much a auto pick, your 2nd pick will most likely be another utility cantrip like Message or Mage Hand which leaves only 1 slot for a damage cantrip. At early levels I feel a attack roll cantrip is more likely to hit compared to a saving throw cantrip therefore spells like Firebolt and Chill Touch gets more love than Acid Splash. By the time level 4 rolls around and you get another cantrip you will most likely have access to a spell that can target and damage multiple enemies therefore you may be more interested in a saving throw cantrip that has a good rider effect or higher single target damage which again results in Acid Splash getting less love.
To put it in perspective, if your Spell Attack Modifier is +5, you hit AC 14 12 times out of 20 (you miss on 1-8), and since your save DC is 13, a target with +0 to their saves is hit on 1-12, meaning you miss 8 ways as well. In other words, +0 to a save is about as good as AC 14, against a given caster. That ignores crits - with crits, provided all of your damage is in dice, not constants, rolling a 20 is as good as hitting twice, which means +0 to a save is more like AC 15 (since AC 15 gets hit 12 times after rolling 20 dice, on average, same as +0 to the save).
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I don't think I said it was instant death or anything, I was using 4d10 as an example from adventures showing what heat level in the D&D world molten rock could be at. And that given fire bolt does comparable damage having it capable of damaging rocks isn't a stretch. DMs are free to rule however they want, but it seems a bit heavy handed to make almost all objects a wizard would choose outside of wood immune or resistant to fire.
My personal take is in most cases the AC and HP reflect their fire durability enough, just like how they show durability to bludgeoning damage etc. Wood wouldn't be inherently vulnerable in the takes x2 damage sense but something like kindling would. Though all wood may catch fire. Stone and metals wouldn't be resistant, like I said AC and HP show its durability already,. Maybe something like gemstones that are basically created by high heat and pressure would be resistant or immune.
Sorry you are right this was the line I was reacting to and it was Harravikk not you. And in at least one sense he is right you need some sort of fire resistance to survive going into lava. In the geologist’s case it was the Nomex fire retardant jump suit we all wore when flying out to work on the flows. In my case it was the 2 liters of ice water in my boot heating up n the boot and turning to steam as it soaked thru the leather of the boot that kept me safe.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Your using false equivalence. The amount of damage isn't necessarily because of the heat. Just because some book gives Lava a similar damage because it's a low level campaign to what is the highest level of Firebolt 2 tiers higher does not make a similar level of heat and capability, nor does it make the similar level of continued exposure between the two of them.
Also. As I have told you. If you find lava in a high level campaign. It doesn't do just 4d10 of damage. I've seen it actually closer to 10d10 of damage for high level campaign stuff which is vastly more than what damage at 2 1/2 times more average damage from the lava.
The damage is also nothing to do with how the lava was created; it's the damage done to other objects as a result of contact, but as others have pointed out lava doesn't melt rock (it can, but mostly it just covers it or goes around it) because lava is the stuff that escaped the furnace that created it, so it's actually rapidly cooling semi-liquid rock, as opposed to the still semi-liquid, and much hotter, magma.
Anyway, this is all very off topic and not at all to do with Acid Splash is definitely the best cantrip (except for Guidance and Prestidigitation) 😉
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Oh I forgot another reason I prefer Firebolt is because of its range, which makes it useful to pick off near dead enemies that are attempting to flee.
And I have seen it still around 4d10 in high level campaigns.
No its not how it was created but it is still molten at those levels even if it is cooling down. Hey if you want to say no to your players over something like this have at it. I wont, and I don't think its a good call as the only reason to take firebolt is it effects objects and if you shut it down by making everything immune to fire you are screwing it over. The riders in other cantrips are far better than 1 more point of damage.
The damage it's doing is the heat that's able to transfer out in that moment, but it still contains (and was created from) significantly more than that. To use a more mundane example; if you touch a hot pan and it burns you, it does so using only a fraction of the energy still contained within that pan, because the energy required to heat it enough to burn someone is higher than the amount of "burn damage" it deals per "turn" (touch).
This is why they aren't comparable; the fire damage lava does might be 4d10, but to actually create lava (melt stone) might required 40d10 or more, applied every turn for an hour; you're not going to get that out of a cantrip unless you use it to ignite a specialised furnace.
I have never said that it should not effect objects; it should absolutely scorch things, break delicate objects and set things on fire, but you're talking about a completely different scale of damage when it comes to melting solid stone or metal with a cantrip.
Stone is one of the most resilient substances that occurs in nature, but it's also a good example of how different types of damage affect things differently; the easiest way to break a rock is to strike it with something harder than it (a stronger rock, a metal etc.) or use a focused point, drill etc., but it's very difficult to damage a rock with fire. You can also break rock with an explosion, but only if contained within the rock (the energy has nowhere else to go). But what fire is very good at is burning things that are combustible; if you stab a pool of oil it's unlikely to do anything, but throw fire at it and you're much more likely to get a reaction. Meanwhile some objects are equally susceptible to most damage; a painting can be damaged by nearly anything, a door might not ignite immediately, but it won't fare well for long against either fire or being struck etc.
And once again, this is off topic, I'm going to stop responding at this point.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I think a very important reason is that the 3 cantrips that a wizard start with Minor Illusion is pretty much a auto pick, your 2nd pick will most likely be another utility cantrip like Message or Mage Hand which leaves only 1 slot for a damage cantrip. At early levels I feel a attack roll cantrip is more likely to hit compared to a saving throw cantrip therefore spells like Firebolt and Chill Touch gets more love than Acid Splash. By the time level 4 rolls around and you get another cantrip you will most likely have access to a spell that can target and damage multiple enemies therefore you may be more interested in a saving throw cantrip that has a good rider effect or higher single target damage which again results in Acid Splash getting less love.
To put it in perspective, if your Spell Attack Modifier is +5, you hit AC 14 12 times out of 20 (you miss on 1-8), and since your save DC is 13, a target with +0 to their saves is hit on 1-12, meaning you miss 8 ways as well. In other words, +0 to a save is about as good as AC 14, against a given caster. That ignores crits - with crits, provided all of your damage is in dice, not constants, rolling a 20 is as good as hitting twice, which means +0 to a save is more like AC 15 (since AC 15 gets hit 12 times after rolling 20 dice, on average, same as +0 to the save).