I am designing a Wizard, and I'm trying to find one with exceptional magic capabilities, but also good armor/defensive capabilities as well. I'm torn between a Bladesinger, a War Mage, or a mage from Evocation or Abjuration. Which subclass do you think is the best (it can also include subclasses I haven't mentioned)? Please let me know! Cheers!
If you are going for pure mechanical strength (which can mean many different things, acros the three pillars of the game) , you cannot ignore Divination
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D&D, Youth Work and the Priesthood sadly do not typically interact... I do what I can!
Can control the most bodies. Once you get high enough you can have a Mummy Lord and Wraiths with their own skeletons and zombies in addition to your own. The sums can get you thousands of undead. You either win by sheer numbers or make it that your turn takes an entire session. Either way, you win!!
I get stuck on this very decision ever time I wish to create a Wizard.
Evocation, being a damage-based support subclass, would probably want a level or two in Artificer, if you want some defensive features…the armor proficiencies & Constitution Saving throw proficiency (if you start Artificer) can help balance your want for offense & defense.
Abjuration is a VERY sturdy subclass, and honestly, their Arcane Ward takes much of the pressure off physical encounters. It may even allow you to be more “aggressive” with your positioning.
War Magic’s big feature is that you can add your Intelligence modifier to your saving throws as a Reaction…that’s a big deal, because it covers the one area that your AC can’t protect against.
It’s important to note that the bonus to your saving throw only lasts for that one effect; it doesn’t last for an entire round (like the “Shield” spell does, or the “always on” bonus to saving throws that Paladins get).
Bladesinger is a bit more exciting these days because you can mix a cantrip with your Extra Attack at all times…so many exciting magic & weapon combinations with that set-up. Your AC with Bladesong is quite sturdy, but again, your saving throws are a weak spot to be mindful of.
Having said all this, I’d say that Abjuration let’s you be more flexible in combat with your spells, be it from close or far range.
Bladesinger is probably a bit better in the damage and “fun” department…just don’t become so much of a nuisance that the DM focuses their wrath on you!
Can control the most bodies. Once you get high enough you can have a Mummy Lord and Wraiths with their own skeletons and zombies in addition to your own. The sums can get you thousands of undead. You either win by sheer numbers or make it that your turn takes an entire session. Either way, you win!!
Yeahhh, the typical BBEG with weebo skelys dancing le masquerade song at mid-day.
Can control the most bodies. Once you get high enough you can have a Mummy Lord and Wraiths with their own skeletons and zombies in addition to your own. The sums can get you thousands of undead. You either win by sheer numbers or make it that your turn takes an entire session. Either way, you win!!
Yeah, its solid if you can pull that off. But I don't think most games will let it. It just bogs things down way too much
War Magic’s big feature is that you can add your Intelligence modifier to your saving throws as a Reaction…that’s a big deal, because it covers the one area that your AC can’t protect against.
It’s important to note that the bonus to your saving throw only lasts for that one effect; it doesn’t last for an entire round (like the “Shield” spell does, or the “always on” bonus to saving throws that Paladins get).
Where in war magic are you getting that? theres is Arcane deflection that gives you +4 to saving through, i think your getting it mixed up with the fact that you add int to your initiative bonus. just a thought
In terms of pure mechanics, it’s hard to not put Chronurgy above all. They can control dice rolls, have initiative bonus and broken abilities at higher levels.
I also consider Divination quite good because they have an unique ability that can literally save the party when needed.
Bladesingera, War Mages, Evokers, Abjurers, Necromancers, Illusionists… they are all really good indeed. Abjurer with Armor of Agathys is simply amazing.
However, I would like to give a shout out to Enchanters. They are not easily so hyped as other sub classes, but Hypnotic Gaze is tremendously good. You can activate this ability when you are invisible! Later on being able to twin enchantment spells for free is amazing.
Yeah enchanters are pretty top notch, its a pity so many creatures are either resistant or immune to charm effects really narrows the range of what they can do.
In general the power of the Wizard is the class. Unless you are going to go with a full on tank build with bladesinger the subclass does not really matter all that much. You can get what you want with any wizard.
That said, I would not go with Evocation. That will drive you to using your least powerful spells. The spells you want to get to be an awesome wizard are not the spells that work with the Evocation wizards abilities. An Evocation wizard can still be overwhelmingly powerful because all wizards can, but If you play to your best Wizard spells your subclass abilities will not be very useful.
The other three you mention are all viable and comparable. If you are not going to be in melee regularly Abjuration is probably better than bladesinger in terms of defenses. That said having the AC to go into melee can make your spells more effective because you can position yourself better, so bladesinger does bring that to the table even on a character that does not want to gish. War Magic is great for the initiative and save boost.
Another subclass I would consider is Enchantment. That is pretty solid and is my favorite if I am not playing a melee build.
Diviner has a great second level ability but the higher level abilities are not as good as most other subclasses IMO.
In general the power of the Wizard is the class. Unless you are going to go with a full on tank build with bladesinger the subclass does not really matter all that much. You can get what you want with any wizard.
That said, I would not go with Evocation. That will drive you to using your least powerful spells. The spells you want to get to be an awesome wizard are not the spells that work with the Evocation wizards abilities. An Evocation wizard can still be overwhelmingly powerful because all wizards can, but If you play to your best Wizard spells your subclass abilities will not be very useful.
I politely disagree. Evokers have a huge battlefield control potential because of Sculpt Spells. I agree that purely AoE damage spells are not the best, I mean, Firebal is pretty impressive at level 5, but we all know Hypnotic Pattern is the way to go, but… Evokers are the only ones who can try to effectively move several enemies at once with Thunderwave without worrying about friendly-fire. Rime’s Binding Ice is a fantastic control spell. A sculpted Sickening Radiance can be terrifying.
I remember my go-to Evoker combo was to cast Web upon our enemies and then follow-up with a sculpted Thunderwave to get them back to the Web. If at least 2+ didn’t make the save or weren’t able to move out the area, then I cast Binding Ice in order to make them eternally (1 minute) stuck in the webs.
Leaving out Chronurgy since it's a subclass of Matt Mercer, the most mechanically powerful subclass is Divination. Portent is fantastic at any level, turning a fight around for you, and Expert Divination lets you spend spell slots like candy. The Third Eye, meh, is something that can be very situational unless you don't have Dark Vision by race. However, See Invisibility can save you on occasion, though its limited range makes it less useful than True Sight, which also pairs with Expert Divination. And Greater Portent makes portent better, which is great in itself. It is a very good subclass at any level.
If we don't ignore Chronurgy, which sometimes we have to remember is official material, I don't think there's any discussion possible. Chronurgy is excellent at all levels, and it also allows you to use Dunamancy, which has some very strong spells. It's true that theoretically any Wizard could learn Dunamancy, but in practice what I see is that most DMs won't let you pick it if you're not a Chronurgy or Graviturgy Wizard. But if we only look at the subclass, it allows you to do things very similar to what a Dvination Wizard does, but it also has what for me is the best feature a wizard can have: Arcane Abeyance. You no longer need to worry about concentration, your party's fighter can maintain it for you. But you could also have several concentration spells running at the same time (the Arcane Abeyance with the concentration of a partner, and another with your own. And even more, if it is a long duration spell). It's such a great feature, that alone puts it ahead of any other wizard. But the rest of the things that the subclass offers you are also excellent for a Wizard. Adding your int to initiative, a kind of improved Silvery barbs without spending spell slots, and the possibility of deciding that a creature fails or passes (better use it to fail) a roll at the cost, albeit a high cost, of a level of exhaustion.
Leaving out Chronurgy since it's a subclass of Matt Mercer, the most mechanically powerful subclass is Divination. Portent is fantastic at any level, turning a fight around for you, and Expert Divination lets you spend spell slots like candy. The Third Eye, meh, is something that can be very situational unless you don't have Dark Vision by race. However, See Invisibility can save you on occasion, though its limited range makes it less useful than True Sight, which also pairs with Expert Divination. And Greater Portent makes portent better, which is great in itself. It is a very good subclass at any level.
If we don't ignore Chronurgy, which sometimes we have to remember is official material, I don't think there's any discussion possible. Chronurgy is excellent at all levels, and it also allows you to use Dunamancy, which has some very strong spells. It's true that theoretically any Wizard could learn Dunamancy, but in practice what I see is that most DMs won't let you pick it if you're not a Chronurgy or Graviturgy Wizard. But if we only look at the subclass, it allows you to do things very similar to what a Dvination Wizard does, but it also has what for me is the best feature a wizard can have: Arcane Abeyance. You no longer need to worry about concentration, your party's fighter can maintain it for you. But you could also have several concentration spells running at the same time (the Arcane Abeyance with the concentration of a partner, and another with your own. And even more, if it is a long duration spell). It's such a great feature, that alone puts it ahead of any other wizard. But the rest of the things that the subclass offers you are also excellent for a Wizard. Adding your int to initiative, a kind of improved Silvery barbs without spending spell slots, and the possibility of deciding that a creature fails or passes (better use it to fail) a roll at the cost, albeit a high cost, of a level of exhaustion.
I would agree that Chronurgy, from a purely spellcasting point of view, is the top-ranking Wizard subclass.
For mitigating a Wizard’s most glaring weakness, I would say that Abjuration provides the best defensive subclass…the Arcane Ward takes a lot of hits, which prevents the Wizard from having to make concentration checks, which means they can keep their “big” spells going strong.
The fact that they can nullify other spellcasters fairly effortlessly, and enhance their HP, is a nice bonus.
Bladesingers are an honorary mention: they provide both a useful boost to general performance, and a fantastic way to cast cantrips while also attacking. Wonderful action economy.
Leaving out Chronurgy since it's a subclass of Matt Mercer, the most mechanically powerful subclass is Divination. Portent is fantastic at any level, turning a fight around for you, and Expert Divination lets you spend spell slots like candy. The Third Eye, meh, is something that can be very situational unless you don't have Dark Vision by race. However, See Invisibility can save you on occasion, though its limited range makes it less useful than True Sight, which also pairs with Expert Divination. And Greater Portent makes portent better, which is great in itself. It is a very good subclass at any level.
Portent can be awesome and it can be weak. Roll a 2 and a 3 and it is freaking awesome. Roll an 11 and a 13 on your portent rolls and it is weak. Roll and 18 and 19 and it is probably "meh" unless you face someone with save or suck or fan insane AC that day, in which case it is awesome again. I agree it is the best 2nd-level feature and it can be powerful all game long, but it is at most two rolls that it will affect, and it is not reliable at affecting those.
Expert Divination can be useful, but it is very conditional in combat. You have to have used lower level slots already and you need to be fighting someone that you don't want to use your best spells on (because your best spells are not divination spells). It is powerful out of combat for exploration and such.
I will say though divination can be fun. I remember as a party we were debating how to deal with a corrupt mayor of a town, we knew the mayor was in the next room and we were going to go in and confront him. We needed him to free an ally who he had chained up in a nearby room. We were debating should we threaten him, fight him and tie him up, bribe him, try to sneak past him ..... the Divination wizard just said - "why not just cast suggestion" ....I replied "what if he saves" ..... "Oh he won't save". It was EPIC!
I am a fan of Abjuration...its features at least partially solve the biggest weakness of the Wizard class, its general squishiness. While none of the features are game-breakingly potent, they are all useful, not particularly situational, do not involve wonky mechanics, and scale with level. I would argue that the capstone 14th level ability, Spell Resistance, is one of the strongest of any of the arcane traditions.
Leaving out Chronurgy since it's a subclass of Matt Mercer, the most mechanically powerful subclass is Divination. Portent is fantastic at any level, turning a fight around for you, and Expert Divination lets you spend spell slots like candy. The Third Eye, meh, is something that can be very situational unless you don't have Dark Vision by race. However, See Invisibility can save you on occasion, though its limited range makes it less useful than True Sight, which also pairs with Expert Divination. And Greater Portent makes portent better, which is great in itself. It is a very good subclass at any level.
Portent can be awesome and it can be weak. Roll a 2 and a 3 and it is freaking awesome. Roll an 11 and a 13 on your portent rolls and it is weak. Roll and 18 and 19 and it is probably "meh" unless you face someone with save or suck or fan insane AC that day, in which case it is awesome again. I agree it is the best 2nd-level feature and it can be powerful all game long, but it is at most two rolls that it will affect, and it is not reliable at affecting those.
Expert Divination can be useful, but it is very conditional in combat. You have to have used lower level slots already and you need to be fighting someone that you don't want to use your best spells on (because your best spells are not divination spells). It is powerful out of combat for exploration and such.
I will say though divination can be fun. I remember as a party we were debating how to deal with a corrupt mayor of a town, we knew the mayor was in the next room and we were going to go in and confront him. We needed him to free an ally who he had chained up in a nearby room. We were debating should we threaten him, fight him and tie him up, bribe him, try to sneak past him ..... the Divination wizard just said - "why not just cast suggestion" ....I replied "what if he saves" ..... "Oh he won't save". It was EPIC!
If you roll to 11 or 13, you can use it on a death save. Or a save to mantain concentration. Even if your Spell save DC is high enough, you could use it to make a monster fail its save. Portent is always helpful. Sometimes more and sometimes less, but it's always helpful.
Expert divination is crazy. Outside of combat it allows you to "recycle" Spell slots in exchange for casting useful spells for exploration. But in combat you have Mind Spike, whose damage sucks, but can come in handy if you want to "recycle" spell slots (and do some damage). Of course, be careful with the concentration.
And yes, divination spells can be a lot of fun... or shit if the DM doesn't know how to interpret them well.
Expert divination is crazy. Outside of combat it allows you to "recycle" Spell slots in exchange for casting useful spells for exploration. But in combat you have Mind Spike, whose damage sucks, but can come in handy if you want to "recycle" spell slots (and do some damage). Of course, be careful with the concentration.
IME it is not good for the level and is really weak in combat. The problem with mind spike is it is not a very good spell. Casting a 5th level mind spike and getting a 4th level spell back is good in terms of cost/benefit but if it is a tough fight you probably want to cast Psychic Lance since getting the most out of your actions is generally more important than saving slots. High level wizards regularly go to bed with unused slots anyway.
The other abilities you can compare it to - bladesinger extra attack, Instinctive Charm, Projected ward. I think those three in specific are way better. For example a 6th level Bladesinger with extra attack will do more damage than a 3rd level mind spike (18 MS vs 21.5 attack+booming blade) without using any slots at all. She will do almost as much as a 6th level mindspike if you manage to land the booming blade secondary damage.
Its a nice perk for when you are casting a divination spell already but its not amazing. Still at level 7+ Id cast arcane eye pretty dang often if I were a diviner. Its a great scouting spell and its in theme for the subclass, so if im casting it anyways getting a hypnotic pattern back is pretty snazzy.
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Hello,
I am designing a Wizard, and I'm trying to find one with exceptional magic capabilities, but also good armor/defensive capabilities as well. I'm torn between a Bladesinger, a War Mage, or a mage from Evocation or Abjuration. Which subclass do you think is the best (it can also include subclasses I haven't mentioned)? Please let me know! Cheers!
Ren
If you are going for pure mechanical strength (which can mean many different things, acros the three pillars of the game) , you cannot ignore Divination
Divination and that Time Wizard are the best.
Chronurgy, divination, scribe are the top 3.
Enchanting is up there. Necromancy can be but it can bog down the game at the point it really starts shining.
Illusion is great late game, meh before that unless your DM is liberal with how illusions work.
Necromancer!
Can control the most bodies. Once you get high enough you can have a Mummy Lord and Wraiths with their own skeletons and zombies in addition to your own. The sums can get you thousands of undead. You either win by sheer numbers or make it that your turn takes an entire session. Either way, you win!!
I get stuck on this very decision ever time I wish to create a Wizard.
Evocation, being a damage-based support subclass, would probably want a level or two in Artificer, if you want some defensive features…the armor proficiencies & Constitution Saving throw proficiency (if you start Artificer) can help balance your want for offense & defense.
Abjuration is a VERY sturdy subclass, and honestly, their Arcane Ward takes much of the pressure off physical encounters. It may even allow you to be more “aggressive” with your positioning.
War Magic’s big feature is that you can add your Intelligence modifier to your saving throws as a Reaction…that’s a big deal, because it covers the one area that your AC can’t protect against.
It’s important to note that the bonus to your saving throw only lasts for that one effect; it doesn’t last for an entire round (like the “Shield” spell does, or the “always on” bonus to saving throws that Paladins get).
Bladesinger is a bit more exciting these days because you can mix a cantrip with your Extra Attack at all times…so many exciting magic & weapon combinations with that set-up. Your AC with Bladesong is quite sturdy, but again, your saving throws are a weak spot to be mindful of.
Having said all this, I’d say that Abjuration let’s you be more flexible in combat with your spells, be it from close or far range.
Bladesinger is probably a bit better in the damage and “fun” department…just don’t become so much of a nuisance that the DM focuses their wrath on you!
Yeahhh, the typical BBEG with weebo skelys dancing le masquerade song at mid-day.
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
Yeah, its solid if you can pull that off. But I don't think most games will let it. It just bogs things down way too much
Where in war magic are you getting that? theres is Arcane deflection that gives you +4 to saving through, i think your getting it mixed up with the fact that you add int to your initiative bonus. just a thought
In terms of pure mechanics, it’s hard to not put Chronurgy above all. They can control dice rolls, have initiative bonus and broken abilities at higher levels.
I also consider Divination quite good because they have an unique ability that can literally save the party when needed.
Bladesingera, War Mages, Evokers, Abjurers, Necromancers, Illusionists… they are all really good indeed. Abjurer with Armor of Agathys is simply amazing.
However, I would like to give a shout out to Enchanters. They are not easily so hyped as other sub classes, but Hypnotic Gaze is tremendously good. You can activate this ability when you are invisible! Later on being able to twin enchantment spells for free is amazing.
Yeah enchanters are pretty top notch, its a pity so many creatures are either resistant or immune to charm effects really narrows the range of what they can do.
In general the power of the Wizard is the class. Unless you are going to go with a full on tank build with bladesinger the subclass does not really matter all that much. You can get what you want with any wizard.
That said, I would not go with Evocation. That will drive you to using your least powerful spells. The spells you want to get to be an awesome wizard are not the spells that work with the Evocation wizards abilities. An Evocation wizard can still be overwhelmingly powerful because all wizards can, but If you play to your best Wizard spells your subclass abilities will not be very useful.
The other three you mention are all viable and comparable. If you are not going to be in melee regularly Abjuration is probably better than bladesinger in terms of defenses. That said having the AC to go into melee can make your spells more effective because you can position yourself better, so bladesinger does bring that to the table even on a character that does not want to gish. War Magic is great for the initiative and save boost.
Another subclass I would consider is Enchantment. That is pretty solid and is my favorite if I am not playing a melee build.
Diviner has a great second level ability but the higher level abilities are not as good as most other subclasses IMO.
I politely disagree. Evokers have a huge battlefield control potential because of Sculpt Spells. I agree that purely AoE damage spells are not the best, I mean, Firebal is pretty impressive at level 5, but we all know Hypnotic Pattern is the way to go, but… Evokers are the only ones who can try to effectively move several enemies at once with Thunderwave without worrying about friendly-fire. Rime’s Binding Ice is a fantastic control spell. A sculpted Sickening Radiance can be terrifying.
I remember my go-to Evoker combo was to cast Web upon our enemies and then follow-up with a sculpted Thunderwave to get them back to the Web. If at least 2+ didn’t make the save or weren’t able to move out the area, then I cast Binding Ice in order to make them eternally (1 minute) stuck in the webs.
Leaving out Chronurgy since it's a subclass of Matt Mercer, the most mechanically powerful subclass is Divination. Portent is fantastic at any level, turning a fight around for you, and Expert Divination lets you spend spell slots like candy. The Third Eye, meh, is something that can be very situational unless you don't have Dark Vision by race. However, See Invisibility can save you on occasion, though its limited range makes it less useful than True Sight, which also pairs with Expert Divination. And Greater Portent makes portent better, which is great in itself. It is a very good subclass at any level.
If we don't ignore Chronurgy, which sometimes we have to remember is official material, I don't think there's any discussion possible. Chronurgy is excellent at all levels, and it also allows you to use Dunamancy, which has some very strong spells. It's true that theoretically any Wizard could learn Dunamancy, but in practice what I see is that most DMs won't let you pick it if you're not a Chronurgy or Graviturgy Wizard. But if we only look at the subclass, it allows you to do things very similar to what a Dvination Wizard does, but it also has what for me is the best feature a wizard can have: Arcane Abeyance. You no longer need to worry about concentration, your party's fighter can maintain it for you. But you could also have several concentration spells running at the same time (the Arcane Abeyance with the concentration of a partner, and another with your own. And even more, if it is a long duration spell). It's such a great feature, that alone puts it ahead of any other wizard. But the rest of the things that the subclass offers you are also excellent for a Wizard. Adding your int to initiative, a kind of improved Silvery barbs without spending spell slots, and the possibility of deciding that a creature fails or passes (better use it to fail) a roll at the cost, albeit a high cost, of a level of exhaustion.
I would agree that Chronurgy, from a purely spellcasting point of view, is the top-ranking Wizard subclass.
For mitigating a Wizard’s most glaring weakness, I would say that Abjuration provides the best defensive subclass…the Arcane Ward takes a lot of hits, which prevents the Wizard from having to make concentration checks, which means they can keep their “big” spells going strong.
The fact that they can nullify other spellcasters fairly effortlessly, and enhance their HP, is a nice bonus.
Bladesingers are an honorary mention: they provide both a useful boost to general performance, and a fantastic way to cast cantrips while also attacking. Wonderful action economy.
Portent can be awesome and it can be weak. Roll a 2 and a 3 and it is freaking awesome. Roll an 11 and a 13 on your portent rolls and it is weak. Roll and 18 and 19 and it is probably "meh" unless you face someone with save or suck or fan insane AC that day, in which case it is awesome again. I agree it is the best 2nd-level feature and it can be powerful all game long, but it is at most two rolls that it will affect, and it is not reliable at affecting those.
Expert Divination can be useful, but it is very conditional in combat. You have to have used lower level slots already and you need to be fighting someone that you don't want to use your best spells on (because your best spells are not divination spells). It is powerful out of combat for exploration and such.
I will say though divination can be fun. I remember as a party we were debating how to deal with a corrupt mayor of a town, we knew the mayor was in the next room and we were going to go in and confront him. We needed him to free an ally who he had chained up in a nearby room. We were debating should we threaten him, fight him and tie him up, bribe him, try to sneak past him ..... the Divination wizard just said - "why not just cast suggestion" ....I replied "what if he saves" ..... "Oh he won't save". It was EPIC!
I am a fan of Abjuration...its features at least partially solve the biggest weakness of the Wizard class, its general squishiness. While none of the features are game-breakingly potent, they are all useful, not particularly situational, do not involve wonky mechanics, and scale with level. I would argue that the capstone 14th level ability, Spell Resistance, is one of the strongest of any of the arcane traditions.
If you roll to 11 or 13, you can use it on a death save. Or a save to mantain concentration. Even if your Spell save DC is high enough, you could use it to make a monster fail its save. Portent is always helpful. Sometimes more and sometimes less, but it's always helpful.
Expert divination is crazy. Outside of combat it allows you to "recycle" Spell slots in exchange for casting useful spells for exploration. But in combat you have Mind Spike, whose damage sucks, but can come in handy if you want to "recycle" spell slots (and do some damage). Of course, be careful with the concentration.
And yes, divination spells can be a lot of fun... or shit if the DM doesn't know how to interpret them well.
IME it is not good for the level and is really weak in combat. The problem with mind spike is it is not a very good spell. Casting a 5th level mind spike and getting a 4th level spell back is good in terms of cost/benefit but if it is a tough fight you probably want to cast Psychic Lance since getting the most out of your actions is generally more important than saving slots. High level wizards regularly go to bed with unused slots anyway.
The other abilities you can compare it to - bladesinger extra attack, Instinctive Charm, Projected ward. I think those three in specific are way better. For example a 6th level Bladesinger with extra attack will do more damage than a 3rd level mind spike (18 MS vs 21.5 attack+booming blade) without using any slots at all. She will do almost as much as a 6th level mindspike if you manage to land the booming blade secondary damage.
Its a nice perk for when you are casting a divination spell already but its not amazing. Still at level 7+ Id cast arcane eye pretty dang often if I were a diviner. Its a great scouting spell and its in theme for the subclass, so if im casting it anyways getting a hypnotic pattern back is pretty snazzy.