I have a player who is a frustrating min/maxxer abjuration wizard. He watches min/max videos on youtube like DnD shorts and Treatmonk that exploit loopholes in the rules to completely and utterly dominate combat encounters and reduce my powerful enemies to stuttering toddlers. He is my friend, but he claims to work within the bounds of RAW at every step (he sometimes makes mistakes i.e. he summoned a faithful hound and moved it all over the field to devastating effect - an invincible, invisible attack dog with 5d8 bite dmg with neither of us realizing it can't be moved once summoned until after the combat)
I have searched the rules and the forums and can not find a ruling that he will accept:
He uses summon greater demon like a meteor by spawning the creature above the target's head, sometimes 60 feet over them and drops them, utilizing 1d10 x 10ft of falling distance.
So my question is twofold: Can he summon the demon in midair and use him in this way?
Can a spellcaster's spell focus be used to replace material components like fresh blood from a humanoid that isn't older than 24hrs?
I can already feel myself formulating new questions, but this player is someone who is used to playing games like Diablo and WOW where min/maxxing is rewarded in an isolated experienced. But when he's a player in my game, it dominates the turn order flow and makes some of the other players feel drastically inferior. It has always been a challenge for me to play with casters as a DM as they can do so much at range or up close (magic is pretty OP by nature).
First off space isn't defined vertically raw, as far as I can find, so you can rule the space above a creature is still controlled by them and not "unoccupied".
Second, a caster can't summon a creature 60 ft above a target space if the range of the spell is 60 ft unless they themselves occupy that space so this is a 5d6 damage add at most. The only rules written for hitting another creature when falling are in tashas; they allow a dc 15 save to avoid being hit and damage split between the creatures on a fail. So this tactic is worth about 8 extra damage save for none and you can't even use your own spell save. The demon also takes damage which reduces the utility of the spell as a whole.
Why are you allowing your powergamer player to dictate which rule is being used? 1d10 per 10 ft???? You ALLOWED that? RAW is 1d6 per 10 ft. Tasha's even has options on ruling when a creature falls on top of another.
"No, not at my table, end of discussion. I do not care what RAW may or may not say."
Secondly, both of you not knowing the rules is problematic. If you don't want to 'hard no' shut him down, give him a soft no. "I don't think it works that way, but after tonight's game I will examine the rules and make a final ruling. Until then, no, you cannot do that." and kick the can down the road a bit so you can research things and perhaps come ask for assistance. Regardless, he's impacting YOUR fun with his lack of knowledge on the rules he's trying to exploit, so it's incumbent on you to say no for your own sanity and enjoyment.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
With the Summons Lesser/Greater Demon spells a spell casting focus can be used in place of the blood you just wouldn’t be able to make that protective circle barrier thing because that requires the blood to be used/consumed by the spell.
Ok, yes. A lot of this was on me. I'm not usually a weak DM, I make rulings all the time that are respected. But in thjs case, they had just leveled up and he had just picked these two spells. I was completely unfamiliar with it and didn't read it thoroughly, I didn't know you couldn't move it, thats on me. And the 1d6 falling damage is also on me, don't know why I always thought it was 1d10.
The space above a target though, I can't find anything anywhere about the space above a creature also being occupied so I ruled it was ok, but I also will be counting distance to target and then distance to midair casting space in the 60 ft of range for the spell.
So my question is twofold: Can he summon the demon in midair and use him in this way?
Yes. However, you can use Tasha's rule to allow the ground creature a DC 15 dex save to avoid it. If they fail the fall damage is split between them and they both land prone. The initiative of the demon might be a few more turns away, giving enemies a considerable opportunity to whack at the demon with advantage.
When aiming higher the amount of height is going to be reduced by how far away the target creature is from the caster. They could only use 60 ft above target, if the caster is also within that 60 ft, which is unlikely. If the caster cannot fly or is not on high ground, they're either going to have to get right next to the target to get 55 ft height, or would be further away from target for less. You're likely going to get 50 ft at best which is 5d6 , and halved, for an average 8 damage to both demon and target. Seriously, what is the point in that?
Also, the demon has the opportunity to break free from control on its every turn and if it does it may choose to instead go after the caster who summoned it in such a ridiculous way.
Can a spellcaster's spell focus be used to replace material components like fresh blood from a humanoid that isn't older than 24hrs?
Yes. The arcane focus can replace any material component that is not consumed and lacks a gold cost. So it can certainly bypass the need for humanoid blood from somebody killed within last 24 hours. However, as was already pointed out if they do this they cannot create the blood circle that would protect them from the demon if it breaks control.
--
So basically, let them use the tactic. It's stupid, pointless, and works against them far more than it does for them.
You as DM can also say that the demons get wind of the summoner who constantly summons them in such a degrading way and just starts going after the summoner in groups to teach them a lesson. Demons aren't exactly a friendly bunch, and perhaps your player will learn the hard way to stop pissing them off, all for a measly few points of damage.
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Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
great advice! Thank you! I honestly think my biggest problem is that 90% of the time, his "think outside the box" line of thinking leads to cool and interesting ways of using spells. But in this case, not only were we both wrong about a couple things, but the massive damage caused by the hound and the falling demon kind of shook my confidence momentarily. But now that I'm over it and have done some research, he's now stuck with these spells that are not nearly as powerful as he thought.
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I have a player who is a frustrating min/maxxer abjuration wizard. He watches min/max videos on youtube like DnD shorts and Treatmonk that exploit loopholes in the rules to completely and utterly dominate combat encounters and reduce my powerful enemies to stuttering toddlers. He is my friend, but he claims to work within the bounds of RAW at every step (he sometimes makes mistakes i.e. he summoned a faithful hound and moved it all over the field to devastating effect - an invincible, invisible attack dog with 5d8 bite dmg with neither of us realizing it can't be moved once summoned until after the combat)
I have searched the rules and the forums and can not find a ruling that he will accept:
He uses summon greater demon like a meteor by spawning the creature above the target's head, sometimes 60 feet over them and drops them, utilizing 1d10 x 10ft of falling distance.
So my question is twofold: Can he summon the demon in midair and use him in this way?
Can a spellcaster's spell focus be used to replace material components like fresh blood from a humanoid that isn't older than 24hrs?
I can already feel myself formulating new questions, but this player is someone who is used to playing games like Diablo and WOW where min/maxxing is rewarded in an isolated experienced. But when he's a player in my game, it dominates the turn order flow and makes some of the other players feel drastically inferior. It has always been a challenge for me to play with casters as a DM as they can do so much at range or up close (magic is pretty OP by nature).
Any ideas?
First off space isn't defined vertically raw, as far as I can find, so you can rule the space above a creature is still controlled by them and not "unoccupied".
Second, a caster can't summon a creature 60 ft above a target space if the range of the spell is 60 ft unless they themselves occupy that space so this is a 5d6 damage add at most. The only rules written for hitting another creature when falling are in tashas; they allow a dc 15 save to avoid being hit and damage split between the creatures on a fail. So this tactic is worth about 8 extra damage save for none and you can't even use your own spell save. The demon also takes damage which reduces the utility of the spell as a whole.
Why are you allowing your powergamer player to dictate which rule is being used? 1d10 per 10 ft???? You ALLOWED that? RAW is 1d6 per 10 ft. Tasha's even has options on ruling when a creature falls on top of another.
You sound like you should do some homework.
first off, you need to say no more.
"No, not at my table, end of discussion. I do not care what RAW may or may not say."
Secondly, both of you not knowing the rules is problematic. If you don't want to 'hard no' shut him down, give him a soft no. "I don't think it works that way, but after tonight's game I will examine the rules and make a final ruling. Until then, no, you cannot do that." and kick the can down the road a bit so you can research things and perhaps come ask for assistance. Regardless, he's impacting YOUR fun with his lack of knowledge on the rules he's trying to exploit, so it's incumbent on you to say no for your own sanity and enjoyment.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
With the Summons Lesser/Greater Demon spells a spell casting focus can be used in place of the blood you just wouldn’t be able to make that protective circle barrier thing because that requires the blood to be used/consumed by the spell.
Ok, yes. A lot of this was on me. I'm not usually a weak DM, I make rulings all the time that are respected. But in thjs case, they had just leveled up and he had just picked these two spells. I was completely unfamiliar with it and didn't read it thoroughly, I didn't know you couldn't move it, thats on me. And the 1d6 falling damage is also on me, don't know why I always thought it was 1d10.
The space above a target though, I can't find anything anywhere about the space above a creature also being occupied so I ruled it was ok, but I also will be counting distance to target and then distance to midair casting space in the 60 ft of range for the spell.
So my question is twofold: Can he summon the demon in midair and use him in this way?
Yes. However, you can use Tasha's rule to allow the ground creature a DC 15 dex save to avoid it. If they fail the fall damage is split between them and they both land prone. The initiative of the demon might be a few more turns away, giving enemies a considerable opportunity to whack at the demon with advantage.
When aiming higher the amount of height is going to be reduced by how far away the target creature is from the caster. They could only use 60 ft above target, if the caster is also within that 60 ft, which is unlikely. If the caster cannot fly or is not on high ground, they're either going to have to get right next to the target to get 55 ft height, or would be further away from target for less. You're likely going to get 50 ft at best which is 5d6 , and halved, for an average 8 damage to both demon and target. Seriously, what is the point in that?
Also, the demon has the opportunity to break free from control on its every turn and if it does it may choose to instead go after the caster who summoned it in such a ridiculous way.
Can a spellcaster's spell focus be used to replace material components like fresh blood from a humanoid that isn't older than 24hrs?
Yes. The arcane focus can replace any material component that is not consumed and lacks a gold cost. So it can certainly bypass the need for humanoid blood from somebody killed within last 24 hours. However, as was already pointed out if they do this they cannot create the blood circle that would protect them from the demon if it breaks control.
--
So basically, let them use the tactic. It's stupid, pointless, and works against them far more than it does for them.
You as DM can also say that the demons get wind of the summoner who constantly summons them in such a degrading way and just starts going after the summoner in groups to teach them a lesson. Demons aren't exactly a friendly bunch, and perhaps your player will learn the hard way to stop pissing them off, all for a measly few points of damage.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
great advice! Thank you! I honestly think my biggest problem is that 90% of the time, his "think outside the box" line of thinking leads to cool and interesting ways of using spells. But in this case, not only were we both wrong about a couple things, but the massive damage caused by the hound and the falling demon kind of shook my confidence momentarily. But now that I'm over it and have done some research, he's now stuck with these spells that are not nearly as powerful as he thought.