Hello. I would love to have a debate on my top favourite spell in the game (Magic Jar) and I would like to have a debate with other people regarding the correct interpretation of the spell in its current state.
First of all I will give you my interpretation in different applications of Magic Jar so that (hopefully) people can argue about it since I am curious.
1) Let's define what the word "You" means. To me this word means a couple (Body, Soul) that represents you. When I say "you have a big jaw" I obviously mean that your body has a big jaw... in the same way I could say "you are evil" and this time obviously I do not mean your body is evil but instead that your inner-self or soul (or however you want to call it) is evil. The word "You" by definition has an inherent ambiguity when it comes to this spell but I think we all can agree that in common language the word "You" does infact represents this (Body,Soul) couple.
So now that we solved the ambiguity of the word "You" that in my opinion is central to understanding the spell Magic Jar let's talk about the spell.
Every spell in this game can easily be seen as a function (hope you have some programming background)... so what are the parameters of Magic Jar?
Range Self : so the first paramenter is You 1. Body, Soul couple.
The second parameter of the fuction is obviously the target "enters the container you used for the spell’s material component".
So let's write down how I think the fuction should looks like in python.
#You=(Body,Soul) Def MagicJar(You,Target): Body.
Now the function Possess.
Def Possess(You,Target): Body.
What the function actually does is that it set You[1]=Target[1] and Target[1] = You[1](OLD You[1]) (Now YOU ARE the container and your body is empty). Possess does the same except that Target has a Soul inside instead of NONE.
So now what happens when you cast it multiple times?
You=(Body,Soul) Target=(Container,None) Target2=(Body2,Soul2) Target3=(Container2,None) MagicJar(You,Target) #You are now a continer with a soul Possess(You,Target2) #You are now is a humanoid body MagicJar(You,Target3) #You are again in a container
As you can see by seeing spells as functions you don't get tricked into beliving that "Your body falls into a catatonic state" it is somehow referring to the body you had 3-4-5 iterations of the spell ago, one of the main arguments I have seen regarding this spell is that since it states "Your body" it must somehow be referring to the original body, that is indeed incorrect as the spell as most functions does not give any absolute pillar but it is referring to the contest in which you casted the spell... so at the second iteration "Your body" is indeed the Target[1] of the first Possess() call. The spell does not state anywhere that your first body has to be considered the somehow original and reconized body in the 5e version of the spell so in my understanding when it says "If the container is destroyed or the spell ends, your soul immediately returns to your body" you should return to Body2 not Body. Being a computer scientist and seeing spells as functions most of the times I really fail to understand why so many people think by reading the spell that in this case Soul should return to Body instead of Body2 (in my previous example).
Until here I do not see any problems but now let's start on the tricky stuff you can do with the Spell.
First can the Target[2] of a Possess() be NONE. Said better can you Possess an humanoid body with no soul? If yes by definition of the spell should the Target[1] make a CHA saving throw? To me the answer is Yes simply because the only restriction I see in the spell definition is that your Target must have an humanoid body.
Second. What happens if you apply Death Ward to You (body,soul) while on an host body and then destroy the jar (at 100+ ft) while your body is destroyed or more than 100ft away? This is indeed an effect that "would kill it instantaneously without dealing damage" so I suspect that the effect is negated if you embrace my definition of "You". I have heard the argument that Death Ward only affect You (as a soul) in this case so not the host body that would die leaving your soul in a state of "Lingering soul". What is the most accepted opinion on this?
I frankly do not belive the spell is well written and has a lot of obscure cases.
The spell does not state anywhere that your first body has to be considered the somehow original and reconized body in the 5e version of the spell so in my understanding when it says "If the container is destroyed or the spell ends, your soul immediately returns to your body" you should return to Body2 not Body. Being a computer scientist and seeing spells as functions most of the times I really fail to understand why so many people think by reading the spell that in this case Soul should return to Body instead of Body2 (in my previous example).
This is a misreading of the spell, in particular because the text specifically distinguishes "your body" from "the target" or "the host body."
The spell does not state anywhere that your first body has to be considered the somehow original and reconized body in the 5e version of the spell so in my understanding when it says "If the container is destroyed or the spell ends, your soul immediately returns to your body" you should return to Body2 not Body. Being a computer scientist and seeing spells as functions most of the times I really fail to understand why so many people think by reading the spell that in this case Soul should return to Body instead of Body2 (in my previous example).
This is a misreading of the spell, in particular because the text specifically distinguishes "your body" from "the target" or "the host body."
Of course there is a distinction.
But all my post was aimed to explain why the distintion is relative to the context of "casting" the spell.
As the internal variables of a function are relative to the context of calling it.
I see nowhere in destription the spell sayin "Your original body". And "Your body" as stated in the spell does not absolutly imply "Your original Body" as "Your body"; in the context of a second cast is not "Your original body" anymore, that is just a souless piece of meat, now "Your body" is the host body of the first cast . But of course the spell has to make a distinction between the body you start with and the body you try to possess (would be otherwise impossible to say what it does). In this context "Your body" is exactly that. A relative way to define your current body (the moment you use this spell).
There's an old joke about a programmer and his wife. She tells him, "Go to the store and get a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen." He returns home with twelve loaves of bread, and when asked why, he says, "Because they had eggs!"
The humor stems from his applying technical logic to a situation where it was inappropriate.
Look, this is D&D, not Eclipse Phase. When the text distinguishes "your body" from "the host body," then that language indicates how you're meant to understand the difference. It makes it clear that occupying the target's body doesn't suddenly make it "your body," because it most definitely distinguishes between the two. If you're reading it otherwise . . . well, I don't know what to tell you. You could always ask one of the designers for confirmation.
You could always ask one of the designers for confirmation.
Ok. Where?
Also to me the spell is pretty clear. I don't see inappropriate to apply logic to natural languages. And my example I do not see why is inappropriate.
As I stated I do not see "Your body" to be strong enough to define "Your original body". Expecially considering that dnd spells normally are accurate when it comes to define them.
If you were to clone an humanoid. after 120 days possess the original with magic jar and break the jar at more than 100ft I would 100% rule on the possessing soul to die and the possessed creature to go inside the clone. This is because the spell specifically say "if the original creature dies".
In case of magic jar to assume "Your Body" = "Your Original Body" is just forcing a definition that is just not there.
If you used nystul's magic aura on a giant or other creature to make it be treated as humanoid, could you then use magic jar to take there body?
- Mask: You change the way the target appears to spells and magical effects that detect creature types. You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment.
I am running Rise of Tiamat. While the party was going through the hedge maze at Xonthal's Tower, they wandered into the Dao encounter. He sprung the poison steam trap as they did not attack him, though the ranger recognized the herbs placed in the teapot. After the Dao's soul entered his magic jar, the teapot itself, the party placed the pot in their bag of holding to stop the steam. This caused me to read VERY carefully the text of the spell and ended up ruling that the jar ended up more than 100 ft away from the body, thus killing him and ending the encounter. Was at the same time shocked and proud of their accidental dismantling of the encounter. My question is, what are the communities thoughts on the topic as a whole, and how would you ruled this.
I am running Rise of Tiamat. While the party was going through the hedge maze at Xonthal's Tower, they wandered into the Dao encounter. He sprung the poison steam trap as they did not attack him, though the ranger recognized the herbs placed in the teapot. After the Dao's soul entered his magic jar, the teapot itself, the party placed the pot in their bag of holding to stop the steam. This caused me to read VERY carefully the text of the spell and ended up ruling that the jar ended up more than 100 ft away from the body, thus killing him and ending the encounter. Was at the same time shocked and proud of their accidental dismantling of the encounter. My question is, what are the communities thoughts on the topic as a whole, and how would you ruled this.
You would indeed be correct. Extra-planar spaces automatically break all within a certain distance related rules and issues because they are a different plane. There is no direct correlation of distance between one plane or another to somehow stay within a set distance of a point. Not even your initial point on a new plane as it is typically rather random as far as that plane is concerned. (meaning that Just because you come out in one place in most methods one time does not mean you come out in that same place the next time. With a few exceptions like a few technically permanent gates/portals/passages.
If you used nystul's magic aura on a giant or other creature to make it be treated as humanoid, could you then use magic jar to take there body?
- Mask: You change the way the target appears to spells and magical effects that detect creature types. You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment.
no. changing what they detect as does not in any way change what they are. People try to take the second sentence in a vacuum to give the excuse that you can but that is not the way it works. The first sentence of Mask tells you exactly what it effects and that is any spells or magical effects that Detect things. And only spells that detect things.
Magic Jar is not detecting whether something is humanoid. It's either humanoid and it works or they aren't and it doesn't. That is the extent of Magic Jar. It does not go any further than that.
You could always ask one of the designers for confirmation.
Ok. Where?
Also to me the spell is pretty clear. I don't see inappropriate to apply logic to natural languages. And my example I do not see why is inappropriate.
As I stated I do not see "Your body" to be strong enough to define "Your original body". Expecially considering that dnd spells normally are accurate when it comes to define them.
If you were to clone an humanoid. after 120 days possess the original with magic jar and break the jar at more than 100ft I would 100% rule on the possessing soul to die and the possessed creature to go inside the clone. This is because the spell specifically say "if the original creature dies".
In case of magic jar to assume "Your Body" = "Your Original Body" is just forcing a definition that is just not there.
I just want to clarify your being rather pendantic when your saying that definition is not there. it certainly is there. Because no matter how you try to swing things. The body you take possession of is not your body. It is the body of whatever soul you forced out of it.
Clone is an Exception of Specificity in that it is a copy of your original body and through the wording of the spell. It is also in effect your original body. And so if your First original body dies then your soul is drawn into the new original body. But it does not give any basis what so ever to Magic Jar to function that way. Nor does it in any way give you automatic ability to take over the clone of that person. That clone and that soul are magically linked and Magic Jar does not over ride it in any way.
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Hello. I would love to have a debate on my top favourite spell in the game (Magic Jar) and I would like to have a debate with other people regarding the correct interpretation of the spell in its current state.
First of all I will give you my interpretation in different applications of Magic Jar so that (hopefully) people can argue about it since I am curious.
1) Let's define what the word "You" means. To me this word means a couple (Body, Soul) that represents you. When I say "you have a big jaw" I obviously mean that your body has a big jaw... in the same way I could say "you are evil" and this time obviously I do not mean your body is evil but instead that your inner-self or soul (or however you want to call it) is evil. The word "You" by definition has an inherent ambiguity when it comes to this spell but I think we all can agree that in common language the word "You" does infact represents this (Body,Soul) couple.
So now that we solved the ambiguity of the word "You" that in my opinion is central to understanding the spell Magic Jar let's talk about the spell.
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Magic%20Jar#content
Every spell in this game can easily be seen as a function (hope you have some programming background)... so what are the parameters of Magic Jar?
Range Self : so the first paramenter is You 1. Body, Soul couple.
The second parameter of the fuction is obviously the target "enters the container you used for the spell’s material component".
So let's write down how I think the fuction should looks like in python.
#You=(Body,Soul)
Def MagicJar(You,Target):
Body.
Now the function Possess.
Def Possess(You,Target):
Body.
What the function actually does is that it set You[1]=Target[1] and Target[1] = You[1](OLD You[1]) (Now YOU ARE the container and your body is empty).
Possess does the same except that Target has a Soul inside instead of NONE.
So now what happens when you cast it multiple times?
You=(Body,Soul)
Target=(Container,None)
Target2=(Body2,Soul2)
Target3=(Container2,None)
MagicJar(You,Target)
#You are now a continer with a soul
Possess(You,Target2)
#You are now is a humanoid body
MagicJar(You,Target3)
#You are again in a container
As you can see by seeing spells as functions you don't get tricked into beliving that "Your body falls into a catatonic state" it is somehow referring to the body you had 3-4-5 iterations of the spell ago, one of the main arguments I have seen regarding this spell is that since it states "Your body" it must somehow be referring to the original body, that is indeed incorrect as the spell as most functions does not give any absolute pillar but it is referring to the contest in which you casted the spell... so at the second iteration "Your body" is indeed the Target[1] of the first Possess() call.
The spell does not state anywhere that your first body has to be considered the somehow original and reconized body in the 5e version of the spell so in my understanding when it says "If the container is destroyed or the spell ends, your soul immediately returns to your body" you should return to Body2 not Body. Being a computer scientist and seeing spells as functions most of the times I really fail to understand why so many people think by reading the spell that in this case Soul should return to Body instead of Body2 (in my previous example).
Until here I do not see any problems but now let's start on the tricky stuff you can do with the Spell.
First can the Target[2] of a Possess() be NONE. Said better can you Possess an humanoid body with no soul? If yes by definition of the spell should the Target[1] make a CHA saving throw? To me the answer is Yes simply because the only restriction I see in the spell definition is that your Target must have an humanoid body.
Second. What happens if you apply Death Ward to You (body,soul) while on an host body and then destroy the jar (at 100+ ft) while your body is destroyed or more than 100ft away? This is indeed an effect that "would kill it instantaneously without dealing damage" so I suspect that the effect is negated if you embrace my definition of "You". I have heard the argument that Death Ward only affect You (as a soul) in this case so not the host body that would die leaving your soul in a state of "Lingering soul". What is the most accepted opinion on this?
I frankly do not belive the spell is well written and has a lot of obscure cases.
This is a misreading of the spell, in particular because the text specifically distinguishes "your body" from "the target" or "the host body."
In this context "Your body" is exactly that. A relative way to define your current body (the moment you use this spell).
There's an old joke about a programmer and his wife. She tells him, "Go to the store and get a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen." He returns home with twelve loaves of bread, and when asked why, he says, "Because they had eggs!"
The humor stems from his applying technical logic to a situation where it was inappropriate.
Look, this is D&D, not Eclipse Phase. When the text distinguishes "your body" from "the host body," then that language indicates how you're meant to understand the difference. It makes it clear that occupying the target's body doesn't suddenly make it "your body," because it most definitely distinguishes between the two. If you're reading it otherwise . . . well, I don't know what to tell you. You could always ask one of the designers for confirmation.
Ok. Where?
Also to me the spell is pretty clear. I don't see inappropriate to apply logic to natural languages. And my example I do not see why is inappropriate.
As I stated I do not see "Your body" to be strong enough to define "Your original body". Expecially considering that dnd spells normally are accurate when it comes to define them.
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Clone#content
"if the original creature dies"
If you were to clone an humanoid. after 120 days possess the original with magic jar and break the jar at more than 100ft I would 100% rule on the possessing soul to die and the possessed creature to go inside the clone. This is because the spell specifically say "if the original creature dies".
In case of magic jar to assume "Your Body" = "Your Original Body" is just forcing a definition that is just not there.
If you used nystul's magic aura on a giant or other creature to make it be treated as humanoid, could you then use magic jar to take there body?
- Mask: You change the way the target appears to spells and magical effects that detect creature types. You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment.
I am running Rise of Tiamat. While the party was going through the hedge maze at Xonthal's Tower, they wandered into the Dao encounter. He sprung the poison steam trap as they did not attack him, though the ranger recognized the herbs placed in the teapot. After the Dao's soul entered his magic jar, the teapot itself, the party placed the pot in their bag of holding to stop the steam. This caused me to read VERY carefully the text of the spell and ended up ruling that the jar ended up more than 100 ft away from the body, thus killing him and ending the encounter. Was at the same time shocked and proud of their accidental dismantling of the encounter. My question is, what are the communities thoughts on the topic as a whole, and how would you ruled this.
You would indeed be correct. Extra-planar spaces automatically break all within a certain distance related rules and issues because they are a different plane. There is no direct correlation of distance between one plane or another to somehow stay within a set distance of a point. Not even your initial point on a new plane as it is typically rather random as far as that plane is concerned. (meaning that Just because you come out in one place in most methods one time does not mean you come out in that same place the next time. With a few exceptions like a few technically permanent gates/portals/passages.
no. changing what they detect as does not in any way change what they are. People try to take the second sentence in a vacuum to give the excuse that you can but that is not the way it works. The first sentence of Mask tells you exactly what it effects and that is any spells or magical effects that Detect things. And only spells that detect things.
Magic Jar is not detecting whether something is humanoid. It's either humanoid and it works or they aren't and it doesn't. That is the extent of Magic Jar. It does not go any further than that.
I just want to clarify your being rather pendantic when your saying that definition is not there. it certainly is there. Because no matter how you try to swing things. The body you take possession of is not your body. It is the body of whatever soul you forced out of it.
Clone is an Exception of Specificity in that it is a copy of your original body and through the wording of the spell. It is also in effect your original body. And so if your First original body dies then your soul is drawn into the new original body. But it does not give any basis what so ever to Magic Jar to function that way. Nor does it in any way give you automatic ability to take over the clone of that person. That clone and that soul are magically linked and Magic Jar does not over ride it in any way.