Chronurgist goes first and decides the warlock becomes a trinket or a drooling flesh sack with 1 Int. It's not even a question. The wizard can even use their 15 in dex and leave Int at whatever they want if they so choose and they still win because they have minimum +5 higher initiative and can force the warlock to fail their save round one. Even the almighty sorcadin is child's play to the chronurgist.
As written, I don't think either Chronal Shift or Convergent Future can be used on initiative since there is no success or failure on initiative. This means that even if the chronurgist gets a +5 in initiative, that's not statistically better on average than the +5.5 a fiend warlock can get with Dark One's Own Luck. It's more likely that the warlock will go first, but that doesn't save the warlock if the warlock can't capitalize on that advantage.
TEMPORAL AWARENESS 2nd-level Chronurgy Magic feature You can add your Intelligence modifier to your initia- tive rolls.
Convergent Future isn't being applied to initiative, temporal awareness is. The Chronurgist is adding a flat +5 vs a d10 so the warlocks average initiative bonus only edges them out by .5 if they use Dark One's Favor. If the wizard gets to cast Gift of Alacrity (meh prep is unfair) they get an extra d8.
They can both build the same, max dex and take Alert and end up with +15 vs +10+1d10. The Warlock also needs Lucky to not automatically fail to Convergent Future.
Again, it's just rocket tag. Whoever fails first loses and the Chronurgist can use Convergent Future to succeed automatically. The warlock's .5 might do the trick for turn order but if the Chronurgist saves round one the warlock is done for.
Even outside of Chronurgists and save or sucks, wizards can Shapechange into an ancient brass dragon with 3x Legendary Resistances, 297 HP, a DC21 Con save or nap for ten minutes breath weapon, and Wis+14 Con+13 Int+11 Cha+10 saving throw bonuses. The dragon solos the warlock for sure.
A lot of who wins comes down to initiative. Not all of it, but a lot. It is not impossible for the warlock to win on the first turn, just very unlikely.
Wizard wins 9/10 times, at least.
I second this
everyone knows a well built sorcadin kills all so why are you arguing
Nah Chronurgist wrecks a sorcadins face to be honest. It wouldn't even be close.
A lot of who wins comes down to initiative. Not all of it, but a lot. It is not impossible for the warlock to win on the first turn, just very unlikely.
Wizard wins 9/10 times, at least.
I second this
everyone knows a well built sorcadin kills all so why are you arguing
Nah Chronurgist wrecks a sorcadins face to be honest. It wouldn't even be close.
I believe a well built abjuration Wizard could win as well.
Lets be real, can we, a well built druid, with a few gimmicks can beat anything...
as can a well built fighter with a few gimmicks,
a well built anything with a few gimmicks can beat anything else.
Totally true. For the sake of an already tortured argument, we could cut it down to basics for a baseline comparison. Standard array, no feats, pure classed, no precasting. I know where I'd put my money for strongest PvP class/subclass, antics aside.
a well built anything with a few gimmicks can beat anything else.
False. This whole thread shows that premise to be false.
Well, a Warlock that is made to beat a Wizard can beat a Wizard that isn't made to beat spellcasters.
I don't think that's true anymore. The wizard (of any arcane tradition) only needs to prepare true polymorph, feeblemind, counterspell, and dispel magic. Those are sensible preparations for daily use. It's hardly made to beat spellcasters.
A cronurgy/war magic Wizard will most likely win initiative and cast feeblemind on the warlock.
They're actually slightly less likely to win initiative than a fiend-patron warlock due to Dark One's Own Luck. It doesn't matter though, because the warlock can't finish out the fight before being feebleminded.
Unless the Chronurgist can precast Gift of Alacrity (but precasting is cheap). Abjurer is best against warlock because of Improved Abjuration gives them a 60% of counterspelling the warlock turn one even if they lose initiative. And the warlock is burning their primary save boost on initiative.
Easy win for the wizard. If the warlock goes first, counterspell whatever spell they may cast. Then on your turn, if the warlock didn't cast a 9th level spell, which i expect they wouldn't have, cast Wish and just do whatever you want with that. 8th level Fireball? Done. Wish the warlock died? Definitely could work. Wish the warlock lost all their spell slots? Plausible too. You can literally do anything with Wish, and the warlock can't counter it since they can't upcast Counterspell past 5th level.
Easy win for the wizard. If the warlock goes first, counterspell whatever spell they may cast. Then on your turn, if the warlock didn't cast a 9th level spell, which i expect they wouldn't have, cast Wish and just do whatever you want with that. 8th level Fireball? Done. Wish the warlock died? Definitely could work. Wish the warlock lost all their spell slots? Plausible too. You can literally do anything with Wish, and the warlock can't counter it since they can't upcast Counterspell past 5th level.
Apperrently you can't use wish for anything other than duplicating a lower-level spell. The wizard can use wish to cast simulacrum, simulacrum uses feeblemind, and wizard counterspells any of the warlock's spells. Wizard casts forcecage, then the wizard and simulacrum use delayed blast fireball and spam fireballs after that. Don't see any way the warlock can win.
Easy win for the wizard. If the warlock goes first, counterspell whatever spell they may cast. Then on your turn, if the warlock didn't cast a 9th level spell, which i expect they wouldn't have, cast Wish and just do whatever you want with that. 8th level Fireball? Done. Wish the warlock died? Definitely could work. Wish the warlock lost all their spell slots? Plausible too. You can literally do anything with Wish, and the warlock can't counter it since they can't upcast Counterspell past 5th level.
That's not the way counterspell works. Even if it was, much of this thread focuses on ways to not be counterspelled.
Basically the summary of the thread is that the warlock is capable of (but not guaranteed) winning if the wizard has less than 150 max hp and didn't prepare true polymorph. Knowing that, there's no way that a wizard wouldn't prepare true polymorph. Until a drastically different warlock strategy is proposed, the wizard wins every time.
TEMPORAL AWARENESS
2nd-level Chronurgy Magic feature
You can add your Intelligence modifier to your initia-
tive rolls.
Convergent Future isn't being applied to initiative, temporal awareness is. The Chronurgist is adding a flat +5 vs a d10 so the warlocks average initiative bonus only edges them out by .5 if they use Dark One's Favor. If the wizard gets to cast Gift of Alacrity (meh prep is unfair) they get an extra d8.
They can both build the same, max dex and take Alert and end up with +15 vs +10+1d10. The Warlock also needs Lucky to not automatically fail to Convergent Future.
Again, it's just rocket tag. Whoever fails first loses and the Chronurgist can use Convergent Future to succeed automatically. The warlock's .5 might do the trick for turn order but if the Chronurgist saves round one the warlock is done for.
Even outside of Chronurgists and save or sucks, wizards can Shapechange into an ancient brass dragon with 3x Legendary Resistances, 297 HP, a DC21 Con save or nap for ten minutes breath weapon, and Wis+14 Con+13 Int+11 Cha+10 saving throw bonuses. The dragon solos the warlock for sure.
Nah Chronurgist wrecks a sorcadins face to be honest. It wouldn't even be close.
I believe a well built abjuration Wizard could win as well.
There is no dawn after eternal night.
Homebrew: Magic items, Subclasses
Lets be real, can we, a well built druid, with a few gimmicks can beat anything...
as can a well built fighter with a few gimmicks,
a well built anything with a few gimmicks can beat anything else.
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
Totally true. For the sake of an already tortured argument, we could cut it down to basics for a baseline comparison. Standard array, no feats, pure classed, no precasting. I know where I'd put my money for strongest PvP class/subclass, antics aside.
False. This whole thread shows that premise to be false.
Well, a Warlock that is made to beat a Wizard can beat a Wizard that isn't made to beat spellcasters.
There is no dawn after eternal night.
Homebrew: Magic items, Subclasses
I don't think that's true anymore. The wizard (of any arcane tradition) only needs to prepare true polymorph, feeblemind, counterspell, and dispel magic. Those are sensible preparations for daily use. It's hardly made to beat spellcasters.
I would love to be proven wrong though.
A well built wizard/Chronurgist with the knowledge that they will fight an enemy, and knows the identity of the enemy will likely beat anything.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
A cronurgy/war magic Wizard will most likely win initiative and cast feeblemind on the warlock.
They're actually slightly less likely to win initiative than a fiend-patron warlock due to Dark One's Own Luck. It doesn't matter though, because the warlock can't finish out the fight before being feebleminded.
Unless the Chronurgist can precast Gift of Alacrity (but precasting is cheap). Abjurer is best against warlock because of Improved Abjuration gives them a 60% of counterspelling the warlock turn one even if they lose initiative. And the warlock is burning their primary save boost on initiative.
What if the Warlock has feeblemind as a mystic arcanum?
Um... it's an INT save
There is no dawn after eternal night.
Homebrew: Magic items, Subclasses
Lol, my weak spot.
And, you know, counterspell exists.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Easy win for the wizard. If the warlock goes first, counterspell whatever spell they may cast. Then on your turn, if the warlock didn't cast a 9th level spell, which i expect they wouldn't have, cast Wish and just do whatever you want with that. 8th level Fireball? Done. Wish the warlock died? Definitely could work. Wish the warlock lost all their spell slots? Plausible too. You can literally do anything with Wish, and the warlock can't counter it since they can't upcast Counterspell past 5th level.
Apperrently you can't use wish for anything other than duplicating a lower-level spell. The wizard can use wish to cast simulacrum, simulacrum uses feeblemind, and wizard counterspells any of the warlock's spells. Wizard casts forcecage, then the wizard and simulacrum use delayed blast fireball and spam fireballs after that. Don't see any way the warlock can win.
There is no dawn after eternal night.
Homebrew: Magic items, Subclasses
That's not the way counterspell works. Even if it was, much of this thread focuses on ways to not be counterspelled.
Basically the summary of the thread is that the warlock is capable of (but not guaranteed) winning if the wizard has less than 150 max hp and didn't prepare true polymorph. Knowing that, there's no way that a wizard wouldn't prepare true polymorph. Until a drastically different warlock strategy is proposed, the wizard wins every time.
My strategy works as long as the Warlock doesn't win first turn.
There is no dawn after eternal night.
Homebrew: Magic items, Subclasses