So my Wizard is 9th level and Int 18 and Dex 14. I'm definitely taking 10th level wizard for Empowered Evocation, but have been thinking about taking a multiclass dip of 1 or 2 levels into Fighter for the following reasons:
Armor prof, so if I don't need to spend a 1st level spell slot putting my Mage Armor on.
Second wind, because I'm in a 3-member party and only heals come from the Bard.
Action surge (if I dip to a second level). Extra spell casting action would be sweet to have in my back pocket.
Martial prof, so that I can use a whip to get a 10ft opportunity attack range.
Dueling fighting style, to make that whip extra painful (plus all other options would be useless).
Between weapon prof, fighting style, and my dex mod, that's a d4+8 reasons for creatures to rethink getting into melee with the wizard. Throw in some medium armor and the other fighter features and I think it's a good trade-off for effectively just delaying getting my 6th level spells.
Am I missing any reasons this build wouldn't work? Spell casting implement doesn't care about main/off hand, so I hold wand in my off hand and not worry about two-weapon fighting rules. Should I hold until I add a few more levels of Wizard, maybe get the ability score improvement first? Are there any feats that I should consider that would have good whip synergy?
Seems good to me! the action serge seems pretty helpful, as well as the attack of operotunity. My biggest issue with multiclassing out of Wizard is the possibility of not getting those high level spell slots if you take to many fighter levels.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Hell yeah I am going to Polymorph the boss into a Rabbit. I have always wanted a being a pure evil stuffed into a ball of fluff.
Remember a single level of Fighter also get Shield proficiency, so if you don't hold a weapon you can get +2 AC, or pay for Warcaster to have defense and offense.
In a small party it might be worth more not being "the guy in the dress" in a world that knows to "geek the mage".
To HonkingJuggalo's point every level of Fighter is a Spell Level you give up. Most of the level 6 Wizard abilities are pretty cool. If you take 3 levels of Fighter and take Eldritch Knight that will get you 1 level back, but it's probably not worth it unless you want the 4th level for the feat or the 5th level for 2 attacks... but now you're looking less and less like a Wizard and more like an Eldritch Knight!
That said if I was going to build an Eldritch Knight, dipping 1-2 levels into Divination Wizard to get full access to all level 1 spells, Arcane Recovery, Ritual Casting (1st), and Portent (2nd) would probably be totally worth it.
Theoretically you can get whip proficiency from the get go with the Hobgoblin race (that also gives a whole lot of cool perks for a frontline wizard) while keeping full caster progression and +INT race, but for an already existing character your proposal sounds indeed the only way.
Anyway, I'm not a big fan of slowing down spell progression for a main caster. Every new spell level is usually overall much more important in every pillar of the game, than any combat trick you can get by going multiclass, so I wouldn't usually multiclass before getting level 9 spells.
That said if I was going to build an Eldritch Knight, dipping 2 levels into Divination Wizard to get full access to all level 1 spells, Arcane Recovery, Ritual Casting, and "Portent" would probably be totally worth it.
Portent is kind of a nifty ability - pocketing two (potentially) good rolls for an important moment is a nice idea. Of course, they could be two crap rolls, too, and go unused until your next long rest. Arcane Recovery isn't that appealing; it's based on Wizard level, so if you only do a two level dip, you'd get one extra first level spell. Ritual Casting is probably the biggest draw for dipping Wizard on an Eldritch Knight.
But now that you've brought it up, I may consider doing it with my Eldritch Knight. I think I may go Evoker, though. Sculpt Spell is based on spell level, not Wizard level, and will eventually let her drop Fireballs at her own feet. Necromancer and Grim Harvest might be a good choice, too (again, because it's based on spell level) - Fighters can never have too much HP. Transmutation and Minor Alchemy might be a good choice - need a silver weapon for that lycanthrope, or iron for a fey? Done!
The Eldritch Knight doesn't get many spells per day, so I would argue +1 spell after a short rest can mean the world to one. But it is a very six of one half dozen other options argument.
Re: Portents
I would argue 2 really bad rolls could possibly more more useful then 2 good rolls. I think I'd find two mediocre rolls the least appealing. My reason is the wording of Portent: "You can replace any attack roll, saving throw, or ability check made by your or a creature that you can see with one of these foretelling rolls" So, you can curse an enemy (turn a crit into just a hit!) Also, I love using it in Role-Playing to auto-succeed in convincing an NPC in a conversation.
My play style I'm a bit of a control freak and so Portent Wizard with Lucky is one of my favorite characters.
Also to correct myself I said 1 level dip, but Portent requires a 2nd level.
Re: Grim Harvest
I'm skeptical of the usefulness of Grim Harvest, I'd like it more if it was TempHP. If I open up with a Fireball on a squad of goblins, it doesn't help me in the future! The power is just not consistant enough and IMHO the Eldrtich Knight is a Fighter with magic powers, so she is less likely to be killing with her spells as her weapon.
Re: Sculpt Spell
I concure the Evocation is one of the best abilities and allows you to use AoEs without worrying about Friendly Fire as much!
I would argue 2 really bad rolls could possibly more more useful then 2 good rolls. I think I'd find two mediocre rolls the least appealing. My reason is the wording of Portent: "You can replace any attack roll, saving throw, or ability check made by your or a creature that you can see with one of these foretelling rolls" So, you can curse an enemy (turn a crit into just a hit!) Also, I love using it in Role-Playing to auto-succeed in convincing an NPC in a conversation.
I totally missed that you can impose it on other people! That brings it's utility way up.
So. I've been having this thread bounce around in my head. One of my thoughts was that what makes a Fighter a "Martial Class" and scary in melee isn't just the DPS, HP, AC, and Multi-Attack. It's all of them, especially the Multi-Attack.
If you're looking for a little defense and/or a little offense I there are easier ways to accomplish this in a MultiClass.
My problem with Fighter is you're sacrificing a Spell Level to get things like Fighting Style, Second Wind, and possibly Action Surge, but your role still hasn't changed. You're not trying to be a front line martial class, just make people pay for underestimating you.
A level in Cleric (Pick a God's Domain that fits your idea of a Wizard) will get you those armor proficiencies (Weapons dependent on Domain).
If you're willing to sacrifice an attuned magic item slot then Gauntlets of Ogre Power is a very inexpensive item and gives you Str 19. Now anything that moves into melee with you will not be expecting that and you're less likely to get stuck by someone using grapple as you can defend with a decent Athletics.
This kind of dip won't really break from a classic "Wizard". It will give you the higher survivability that it I believe you're looking for with sacrificing less.
By taking Cleric you'll be a level behind in gaining Spell levels from the Wizard Class but not Spell Slots as they are determined wholistically from the Multiclass rules.
That said if you love the Spell Knight and want more Spell then Knight, this Indiana Jones Wizard sounds cool too.
Hmm, I hadn't considered Cleric as my current Wis is 12 and the multiclass doesn't necessarily give me martial weapons like Fighter does, but now I'm thinking a level of Tempest Cleric wouldn't be a bad idea in a few levels after my next ability score increase. Tempest grants me the martial weapon prof I wanted, plus Wrath of the Storm for anyone who runs up to punch me. A 2nd level of Cleric would let me max lighting or thunder damage on some high level wizard spells, and I wouldn't be sacrificing spell slots like I would if I took fighter.
Is there any other way to get martial weapons besides dipping into Fighter or Cleric that make sense for a level 9 Wizard?
I suppose I could also just use the Whip while not proficient with it. I'm only using it for 10' opportunity attacks, not so much offensive fighting; besides not getting the prof bonus on the attack, are there any downsides to using weapons you're not proficient in?
Technically Paladin/Ranger both give you martial weapons and both are half casters, so two levels in them will only lose 1 caster level of Wizard (you still lose the Spell Level but not the Slot as before). I doubt either of these are great choices, but I wanted to list them for completeness.
Although, if I ever make a Necromancer like I've thought about I think 1 level of Cleric with the Death Domain would be pretty sweet. You get Martial Weapons and the 1st level power Reaper allows the caster to target 2 enemies (within 5' of each other) with a Necromatic Cantrip (Chill Touch). That makes the cantrip much more dangerous in groups!
Another option other than multi-classing is taking the weapon master feat. You get an increase to Strength or Dexterity as well as proficiency with four weapons of your choice. (See Pg. 170 in the PHB)
It's not a bad idea, but at least for my character I think four weapon proficiencies may be overkill for a non-multi-class wizard. Plus I've got an even-scored Dex currently, so a +1 to that score won't affect my modifier. I think it makes more sense to forego the feat and get my Dex score up by 2 so the modifier up by 1, and then using a dip into fighter to get the weapon proficiency, plus all those other fighter goodies.
I would like to preface this by saying, personally I love the whip and tend to try to find a way to use it. However, I am curious how often a caster finds themselves able to perform an opportunity attack, even with a 10ft range. Wouldn’t most baddies think, oh good squishy target and just close on you?
Regardless, that was not your question. As a caster myself I multiclassed into fighter and find the ability to do a bit of healing as a bonus action as well as the ability to use action surge for another spell useful. However I’m a cleric with a ranger and druid for healing. If you do this I would highly suggest you take the Defense Fighting Style over Dueling if you plan on wearing armor.
As mentioned before I would suggest cleric if you are merely looking to gain armor and weapon proficiency. This would have the added bonus of giving you access to cure wounds, which having a low WIS isn’t the best, but if your Bard is the only healer would allow you to assist in a pinch.
Alternatively, as previously mentioned, you could take 2 levels in ranger. This would allow martial weapon and up to medium armor proficiency (perfect for your +2 DEX), the Defense Fighting Style, cure wounds, and still preserve at least one level of spell slots you would otherwise lose if you went fighter. It would also have the added bonus of avoiding all that deity hooey. Alas, officially you would need a component pouch for casting ranger spells I believe.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong - even if you have an additional action, according to the Spell rules, I believe you can only ever cast 1 spell and 1 cantrip with a casting time of 0 per a single round. Can Action Surge circumvent this?
I usually will take my first level as Fighter for the Constitution Save (very good for casters to have).
That said, a friend is just starting a Legend of Zelda themed campaign and I'm running a character with fighter for level 1, whip proficiency, a Sage background and will be taking levels 2-5 in Wizard to run a Bladesinger and Green-Flame Blade with a whip. After that, maybe a 3 level dip into Sorcerer for Meta Magic (and Draconic Origin for the natural armor), 1 more level into fighter to grab Action Surge and the rest into Wizard.
At high levels, I'll lose some spells, but the slots will feed Metamagic powers and the Bladesinger's damage reduction feature. Plus, once I can cast level 3 spells, I can haste myself and essentially make 4 attacks in my first turn.
I usually will take my first level as Fighter for the Constitution Save (very good for casters to have).
That said, a friend is just starting a Legend of Zelda themed campaign and I'm running a character with fighter for level 1, whip proficiency, a Sage background and will be taking levels 2-5 in Wizard to run a Bladesinger and Green-Flame Blade with a whip. After that, maybe a 3 level dip into Sorcerer for Meta Magic (and Draconic Origin for the natural armor), 1 more level into fighter to grab Action Surge and the rest into Wizard.
At high levels, I'll lose some spells, but the slots will feed Metamagic powers and the Bladesinger's damage reduction feature. Plus, once I can cast level 3 spells, I can haste myself and essentially make 4 attacks in my first turn.
GFB has a 5 foot range so you'd only be able to use it on your whip if you're in melee. You can take spell sniper feat to double that so it'll work with your whip, though.
Seems silly, but hear me out.
So my Wizard is 9th level and Int 18 and Dex 14. I'm definitely taking 10th level wizard for Empowered Evocation, but have been thinking about taking a multiclass dip of 1 or 2 levels into Fighter for the following reasons:
Between weapon prof, fighting style, and my dex mod, that's a d4+8 reasons for creatures to rethink getting into melee with the wizard. Throw in some medium armor and the other fighter features and I think it's a good trade-off for effectively just delaying getting my 6th level spells.
Am I missing any reasons this build wouldn't work? Spell casting implement doesn't care about main/off hand, so I hold wand in my off hand and not worry about two-weapon fighting rules. Should I hold until I add a few more levels of Wizard, maybe get the ability score improvement first? Are there any feats that I should consider that would have good whip synergy?
Seems good to me! the action serge seems pretty helpful, as well as the attack of operotunity. My biggest issue with multiclassing out of Wizard is the possibility of not getting those high level spell slots if you take to many fighter levels.
Hell yeah I am going to Polymorph the boss into a Rabbit. I have always wanted a being a pure evil stuffed into a ball of fluff.
My suggestion is not dividing character level for most situation, but getting second wind could be useful :P
"What are you lookin' at, filthy mortal?"
Remember a single level of Fighter also get Shield proficiency, so if you don't hold a weapon you can get +2 AC, or pay for Warcaster to have defense and offense.
In a small party it might be worth more not being "the guy in the dress" in a world that knows to "geek the mage".
To HonkingJuggalo's point every level of Fighter is a Spell Level you give up. Most of the level 6 Wizard abilities are pretty cool. If you take 3 levels of Fighter and take Eldritch Knight that will get you 1 level back, but it's probably not worth it unless you want the 4th level for the feat or the 5th level for 2 attacks... but now you're looking less and less like a Wizard and more like an Eldritch Knight!
That said if I was going to build an Eldritch Knight, dipping 1-2 levels into Divination Wizard to get full access to all level 1 spells, Arcane Recovery, Ritual Casting (1st), and Portent (2nd) would probably be totally worth it.
Theoretically you can get whip proficiency from the get go with the Hobgoblin race (that also gives a whole lot of cool perks for a frontline wizard) while keeping full caster progression and +INT race, but for an already existing character your proposal sounds indeed the only way.
Anyway, I'm not a big fan of slowing down spell progression for a main caster.
Every new spell level is usually overall much more important in every pillar of the game, than any combat trick you can get by going multiclass, so I wouldn't usually multiclass before getting level 9 spells.
AL Pisa: Comunità di gioco organizzato per Adventurers League in area Pisa centro
Meet the legend of the abominable snowmartos and the toad who lept through time.
Proud creator of Martos' seedy alley, Martos' cold fusion, Freezing coffing of the Nadus, Swarm of toads and Oppressive weight of the batrachian
@TJL
The Eldritch Knight doesn't get many spells per day, so I would argue +1 spell after a short rest can mean the world to one. But it is a very six of one half dozen other options argument.
I would argue 2 really bad rolls could possibly more more useful then 2 good rolls. I think I'd find two mediocre rolls the least appealing.
My reason is the wording of Portent:
"You can replace any attack roll, saving throw, or ability check made by your or a creature that you can see with one of these foretelling rolls" So, you can curse an enemy (turn a crit into just a hit!) Also, I love using it in Role-Playing to auto-succeed in convincing an NPC in a conversation.
I'm skeptical of the usefulness of Grim Harvest, I'd like it more if it was TempHP. If I open up with a Fireball on a squad of goblins, it doesn't help me in the future! The power is just not consistant enough and IMHO the Eldrtich Knight is a Fighter with magic powers, so she is less likely to be killing with her spells as her weapon.
I concure the Evocation is one of the best abilities and allows you to use AoEs without worrying about Friendly Fire as much!
So. I've been having this thread bounce around in my head. One of my thoughts was that what makes a Fighter a "Martial Class" and scary in melee isn't just the DPS, HP, AC, and Multi-Attack. It's all of them, especially the Multi-Attack.
If you're looking for a little defense and/or a little offense I there are easier ways to accomplish this in a MultiClass.
My problem with Fighter is you're sacrificing a Spell Level to get things like Fighting Style, Second Wind, and possibly Action Surge, but your role still hasn't changed. You're not trying to be a front line martial class, just make people pay for underestimating you.
A level in Cleric (Pick a God's Domain that fits your idea of a Wizard) will get you those armor proficiencies (Weapons dependent on Domain).
If you're willing to sacrifice an attuned magic item slot then Gauntlets of Ogre Power is a very inexpensive item and gives you Str 19. Now anything that moves into melee with you will not be expecting that and you're less likely to get stuck by someone using grapple as you can defend with a decent Athletics.
This kind of dip won't really break from a classic "Wizard". It will give you the higher survivability that it I believe you're looking for with sacrificing less.
By taking Cleric you'll be a level behind in gaining Spell levels from the Wizard Class but not Spell Slots as they are determined wholistically from the Multiclass rules.
That said if you love the Spell Knight and want more Spell then Knight, this Indiana Jones Wizard sounds cool too.
Hmm, I hadn't considered Cleric as my current Wis is 12 and the multiclass doesn't necessarily give me martial weapons like Fighter does, but now I'm thinking a level of Tempest Cleric wouldn't be a bad idea in a few levels after my next ability score increase. Tempest grants me the martial weapon prof I wanted, plus Wrath of the Storm for anyone who runs up to punch me. A 2nd level of Cleric would let me max lighting or thunder damage on some high level wizard spells, and I wouldn't be sacrificing spell slots like I would if I took fighter.
Is there any other way to get martial weapons besides dipping into Fighter or Cleric that make sense for a level 9 Wizard?
I suppose I could also just use the Whip while not proficient with it. I'm only using it for 10' opportunity attacks, not so much offensive fighting; besides not getting the prof bonus on the attack, are there any downsides to using weapons you're not proficient in?
Technically Paladin/Ranger both give you martial weapons and both are half casters, so two levels in them will only lose 1 caster level of Wizard (you still lose the Spell Level but not the Slot as before). I doubt either of these are great choices, but I wanted to list them for completeness.
Although, if I ever make a Necromancer like I've thought about I think 1 level of Cleric with the Death Domain would be pretty sweet. You get Martial Weapons and the 1st level power Reaper allows the caster to target 2 enemies (within 5' of each other) with a Necromatic Cantrip (Chill Touch). That makes the cantrip much more dangerous in groups!
Another option other than multi-classing is taking the weapon master feat. You get an increase to Strength or Dexterity as well as proficiency with four weapons of your choice. (See Pg. 170 in the PHB)
It's not a bad idea, but at least for my character I think four weapon proficiencies may be overkill for a non-multi-class wizard. Plus I've got an even-scored Dex currently, so a +1 to that score won't affect my modifier. I think it makes more sense to forego the feat and get my Dex score up by 2 so the modifier up by 1, and then using a dip into fighter to get the weapon proficiency, plus all those other fighter goodies.
I would like to preface this by saying, personally I love the whip and tend to try to find a way to use it. However, I am curious how often a caster finds themselves able to perform an opportunity attack, even with a 10ft range. Wouldn’t most baddies think, oh good squishy target and just close on you?
Regardless, that was not your question. As a caster myself I multiclassed into fighter and find the ability to do a bit of healing as a bonus action as well as the ability to use action surge for another spell useful. However I’m a cleric with a ranger and druid for healing. If you do this I would highly suggest you take the Defense Fighting Style over Dueling if you plan on wearing armor.
As mentioned before I would suggest cleric if you are merely looking to gain armor and weapon proficiency. This would have the added bonus of giving you access to cure wounds, which having a low WIS isn’t the best, but if your Bard is the only healer would allow you to assist in a pinch.
Alternatively, as previously mentioned, you could take 2 levels in ranger. This would allow martial weapon and up to medium armor proficiency (perfect for your +2 DEX), the Defense Fighting Style, cure wounds, and still preserve at least one level of spell slots you would otherwise lose if you went fighter. It would also have the added bonus of avoiding all that deity hooey. Alas, officially you would need a component pouch for casting ranger spells I believe.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong - even if you have an additional action, according to the Spell rules, I believe you can only ever cast 1 spell and 1 cantrip with a casting time of 0 per a single round. Can Action Surge circumvent this?
I believe so. See this for reference: http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/04/17/action-surge-spell-3/
I usually will take my first level as Fighter for the Constitution Save (very good for casters to have).
That said, a friend is just starting a Legend of Zelda themed campaign and I'm running a character with fighter for level 1, whip proficiency, a Sage background and will be taking levels 2-5 in Wizard to run a Bladesinger and Green-Flame Blade with a whip. After that, maybe a 3 level dip into Sorcerer for Meta Magic (and Draconic Origin for the natural armor), 1 more level into fighter to grab Action Surge and the rest into Wizard.
At high levels, I'll lose some spells, but the slots will feed Metamagic powers and the Bladesinger's damage reduction feature. Plus, once I can cast level 3 spells, I can haste myself and essentially make 4 attacks in my first turn.
Might I ask what school of magic you are? Because if it's School of Abjuration, War Magic, or Bladesinging, there is little reason to multiclass.
D&D is a game for nerds... so I guess I'm one :p
oof now I realize this is 2 years old
D&D is a game for nerds... so I guess I'm one :p