When I was looking over the new spells, one of the first things I noticed was the similarity between Simulacrum and Create Magen. I know it's going to take me a bit more time to process the differences and similarities of these spells, but don't think it takes much looking over to notice that they both fill a very similar role. Guess I'm just curious on what you guys think about this too.
Create Magen has a short casting time and easier to cast more than once as the consumed materials are 1/3 of the cost of Simulacrum's. The Magem is useful and permanent, it can be healed, and it recovers things on rests. There is no limit, beyond resources, to how many you can have at once. The Magems are not that powerful, however.
Simulacrum has an insanely long cast time of 12 hours and costs 1500 gp per cast and you can only have one at a time - significant limitations But you can create a sim of yourself to double all your other spell slots, abilities, and what-have-you, and they can cast the risky spells for you like a non-basic use of Wish. And they can maintain their own concentration so you basically get to concentrate on two spells at once. Alternatively, you can make a Sim of another - be it an ally or enemy. Imagine a sim of an enemy - the sim knows everything that enemy knows, but is loyal to you and obeys you. So it can provide you with all of that enemy's secrets and can impersonate that enemy if you need it to.
They both have very different uses to generally serve different purposes. Create Magem is for those needing an entourage of minions that are permanent without worrying about the crapfluffery of Planar Binding. Ranging from CR 1 to 3, they're not bad to have around. Sim, however, is for doubling somebody - be it to double resources/magic or for exploiting enemies. Very, different in my eyes.
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Looking at the stats of the created creatures I don't see very many players ever using the Create Magen spell. Not just because most campaigns never reach this point, but because by the time you get them a CR 3 creature just isn't very useful. If I were an actual wizard living in that setting, I would probably create a few and have them assist me around the tower with basic tasks such as research, tending to my library, and keeping watch. However in actual play they just don't provide enough tangible benefit to outweigh the drawbacks. What drawbacks; you ask?
"When the magen appears, your hit point maximum decreases by an amount equal to the magen’s challenge rating (minimum reduction of 1). Only a wish spell can undo this reduction to your hit point maximum."
Reading this line of text I don't see the HP being restored after the destruction of the Magen, meaning each one created would accrue a permanent reduction in hit points. Wish CAN fix this, but at an even bigger price. Since this isn't using wish to replicate a spell of 8th level or lower, it comes with a 33% chance of never casting wish again. Its important to mention that finding wish in an item form like a ring or even the deck of many things does NOT bypass this restriction. There are 2 ways around this by RAW/RAI and both are very DM dependent.
1. Find a Genie to grant the wish. 2. Use Simulacrum and have your Sim cast the wish. (Most GM's rule that this still counts as you casting wish and you still suffer the potential consequences.)
It's a nice flavor spell, but I really don't see it being mechanically useful in most cases.
Simulacrum on the other hand is mechanically useful and fills a lot of the flavor roles of create Magen.
If I were an actual wizard living in that setting, I would probably create a few and have them assist me around the tower with basic tasks such as research, tending to my library, and keeping watch. However in actual play they just don't provide enough tangible benefit to outweigh the drawbacks.
I think the issue here is what you mean by "actual play", because what you've described a Wizard doing is exactly what you can use Magen for.
I don't believe they're actually intended for use in combat; while some of them have okay abilities for their (low) rating, the fact that if they die you've permanently lost HP for nothing means that combat is the last place you want them to be. You want them conducting magical research, or going off and completing low risk tasks for you in the world, so all you have to do is return to your wizard's tower or whatever periodically to check in.
Of course that means the value of the spell, or rather the Magen themselves, very much depends upon your group and DM, but if you've ever played a video game that lets you send NPCs off to search for resources and such then I kind of love the idea of being able to do that with magically loyal constructs.
If you want something to fight alongside you, then Simulacrum is definitely the better option for that, but you can only have one of those at a time, and really… why not have both? You don't need to keep either spell prepared, just set up your servants in advance.
Also the other option people don't seem to be considering is you could create four of the cheapest Magen and have them carry you everywhere on a palanquin; wizard royalty shouldn't need regular peasant transport like a wagon, or to waste their energy on transport spells when they could be focusing on more important things like planning which of their childhood enemies whose lives they're going to comprehensively ruin next. 😈
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Yeah, after thinking about this a bit more, I really do like the spell, even if Simulacrum makes the "better" creation. Sometimes just having the ability to have multiple lackeys is just better and as stated earlier, you can use both in tandem. Now, I do think that create magen fits better as a DM spell for flavor, NPCs or as a plot hook, similar to spells like Continual Flame or skywrite, but I can definite see myself and the other players in my group using this spell when we get around to it.
Also the other option people don't seem to be considering is you could create four of the cheapest Magen and have them carry you everywhere on a palanquin; wizard royalty shouldn't need regular peasant transport like a wagon, or to waste their energy on transport spells when they could be focusing on more important things like planning which of their childhood enemies whose lives they're going to comprehensively ruin next. 😈
Lets not forget that if you choose to take a higher hit point loss, the Galvan Magen does have a fly speed so the palanquin should also fly. *evil wizard laugh*
Side note: Please let me know if I'm mistaken, but if you use the Wish spell to replicate Greater Restoration on yourself or use the "You allow up to twenty creatures that you can see to regain all hit points, and you end all effects on them described in the greater restoration spell." Would these count towards the "Only a wish spell can undo this reduction to your hit point maximum," thus not triggering the 1/3 chance of losing the ability to cast wish again or would you need to use a nonspell replication use of wish? If so, that alone negates the drawback of this spell, but I've haven't had to deal with similar situations in my group as of yet, so I'm unsure if that would be the case or not.
Make Magem. Mage Simulacrum. Have Simulacrum use Wish to restore your HP.
Unless you have a dick DM rewriting how sims work, the Sims suffer the consequence so you don't risk the 1/3 chance of losing the ability to ever cast Wish again just because you don't want to be seriously HP-nerfed making a few lackeys.
Or have the Sim make the Magem and then instruct the Magem to always obey you. Even if the Sim dies, the Magem stay and will continue to follow your orders.
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Side note: Please let me know if I'm mistaken, but if you use the Wish spell to replicate Greater Restoration on yourself or use the "You allow up to twenty creatures that you can see to regain all hit points, and you end all effects on them described in the greater restoration spell." Would these count towards the "Only a wish spell can undo this reduction to your hit point maximum," thus not triggering the 1/3 chance of losing the ability to cast wish again or would you need to use a nonspell replication use of wish? If so, that alone negates the drawback of this spell, but I've haven't had to deal with similar situations in my group as of yet, so I'm unsure if that would be the case or not.
Using wish to replicate greater restoration would not work. If it did, then the description would read only a wish spell or greater restoration can remove the hit point reduction. Another side note about wish. The things listed in bullet points still count as an overuse of the spell and come with a 33% chance of never casting it again. Those things are just examples to limit the power of an overuse of the spell.
You could always have your Simulacrum cast create Magen and have it tell them to follow your commands.
While this is sort of a solution, it opens up a vulnerability. Going off some sage advice about the nature of the control given by the simulacrum and find greater steed spell, we can se that there is some kind of link that exists between the caster and the created creature that surpasses disguises and magic that alters your appearance. Even if someone perfectly impersonates you, they still wouldn't be able to give commands to your sim. However if you tell your sim to follow the orders of a party member they wouldn't have that innate magical link that confirms their identity. Meaning someone could impersonate that party member and issue orders to it.
I don't see any reason why the control given by the Create Magen spell would work any differently. While this sort of work around is definitely an option; it also opens up a vulnerability that I personally wouldn't take.
Side note: Please let me know if I'm mistaken, but if you use the Wish spell to replicate Greater Restoration on yourself or use the "You allow up to twenty creatures that you can see to regain all hit points, and you end all effects on them described in the greater restoration spell." Would these count towards the "Only a wish spell can undo this reduction to your hit point maximum," thus not triggering the 1/3 chance of losing the ability to cast wish again or would you need to use a nonspell replication use of wish? If so, that alone negates the drawback of this spell, but I've haven't had to deal with similar situations in my group as of yet, so I'm unsure if that would be the case or not.
Using wish to replicate greater restoration would not work. If it did, then the description would read only a wish spell or greater restoration can remove the hit point reduction. Another side note about wish. The things listed in bullet points still count as an overuse of the spell and come with a 33% chance of never casting it again. Those things are just examples to limit the power of an overuse of the spell.
many people may disagree with me on this but the way it reads to me and my table is that the wish spell is it is divided into three layers
layer one replicating spells (no downsides from this)
layer two the other effects listed in the spell description(you suffer the stress but not the risk of losing the spell or the dm twisting your words)
layer three whatever you damn choose (full downsides)
via this interpretation fallens idea would work and not risk losing the spell but eh this doesn't really affect anyone
this will definitely be disapproved of but i thought i'd share it
if i say something inflammatory the intention is not to trigger an emotional response and the fact that it does so is purely accidental and I sincerely apologise if it does
Side note: Please let me know if I'm mistaken, but if you use the Wish spell to replicate Greater Restoration on yourself or use the "You allow up to twenty creatures that you can see to regain all hit points, and you end all effects on them described in the greater restoration spell." Would these count towards the "Only a wish spell can undo this reduction to your hit point maximum," thus not triggering the 1/3 chance of losing the ability to cast wish again or would you need to use a nonspell replication use of wish? If so, that alone negates the drawback of this spell, but I've haven't had to deal with similar situations in my group as of yet, so I'm unsure if that would be the case or not.
Using wish to replicate greater restoration would not work. If it did, then the description would read only a wish spell or greater restoration can remove the hit point reduction. Another side note about wish. The things listed in bullet points still count as an overuse of the spell and come with a 33% chance of never casting it again. Those things are just examples to limit the power of an overuse of the spell.
many people may disagree with me on this but the way it reads to me and my table is that the wish spell is it is divided into three layers
layer one replicating spells (no downsides from this)
layer two the other effects listed in the spell description(you suffer the stress but not the risk of losing the spell or the dm twisting your words)
layer three whatever you damn choose (full downsides)
via this interpretation fallens idea would work and not risk losing the spell but eh this doesn't really affect anyone
this will definitely be disapproved of but i thought i'd share it
Those many people are wrong. That is how Wish works. This is Rules as Written, Rules as Intended and confirmed by developers in tweets by Jeremy Crawford.
However, Fallen's example of using the 2nd option of wish to heal or 1st option to replicate greater restoration would both fail. As per the rules in Create Magen spell the hit point reduction can only be rectified by using Wish. This isn't healing and would be a 3rd option of Wish.
If you know in advance you're going to want to use Create Magen then consider the School of Necromancy Wizard. They have a feature that your hit point maximum cannot be reduced by any means - thus nullifying the drawback of Create Magen.
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Side note: Please let me know if I'm mistaken, but if you use the Wish spell to replicate Greater Restoration on yourself or use the "You allow up to twenty creatures that you can see to regain all hit points, and you end all effects on them described in the greater restoration spell." Would these count towards the "Only a wish spell can undo this reduction to your hit point maximum," thus not triggering the 1/3 chance of losing the ability to cast wish again or would you need to use a nonspell replication use of wish? If so, that alone negates the drawback of this spell, but I've haven't had to deal with similar situations in my group as of yet, so I'm unsure if that would be the case or not.
Using wish to replicate greater restoration would not work. If it did, then the description would read only a wish spell or greater restoration can remove the hit point reduction. Another side note about wish. The things listed in bullet points still count as an overuse of the spell and come with a 33% chance of never casting it again. Those things are just examples to limit the power of an overuse of the spell.
many people may disagree with me on this but the way it reads to me and my table is that the wish spell is it is divided into three layers
layer one replicating spells (no downsides from this)
layer two the other effects listed in the spell description(you suffer the stress but not the risk of losing the spell or the dm twisting your words)
layer three whatever you damn choose (full downsides)
via this interpretation fallens idea would work and not risk losing the spell but eh this doesn't really affect anyone
this will definitely be disapproved of but i thought i'd share it
Those many people are wrong. That is how Wish works. This is Rules as Written, Rules as Intended and confirmed by developers in tweets by Jeremy Crawford.
However, Fallen's example of using the 2nd option of wish to heal or 1st option to replicate greater restoration would both fail. As per the rules in Create Magen spell the hit point reduction can only be rectified by using Wish. This isn't healing and would be a 3rd option of Wish.
If you know in advance you're going to want to use Create Magen then consider the School of Necromancy Wizard. They have a feature that your hit point maximum cannot be reduced by any means - thus nullifying the drawback of Create Magen.
but the restoring lost max hitpoints isn't replicating a spell it is one of the described options of wish(layer two)
also may i ask what is your reasoning for saying you have to use layer three?(no snark just curious)
if i say something inflammatory the intention is not to trigger an emotional response and the fact that it does so is purely accidental and I sincerely apologise if it does
Because I've barely slept all week and misread one line.
Option 2 is fine.
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There is one other possible workaround, beside the Necromancer. Cast the Clone spell on yourself first. For 120 days while it matures you make Magen. Your clone that you enter when you die should maintain the loyalty and control of the Magen. When your spirit enters your younger clone, it should have your full hit points. The Clone spell doesn't specify HP. Which means depending on how literally your table takes the line from Create Magen that says only a wish spell works, it might work.
Also note that Magen don't die if you do. This allows that interaction to work, unlike Create Homunculus. The other aspect to this is that you could have independent Magen with a deceased creator or master. Do with that what you will.
It's definitely intended to be a world creation, DM spell. So are many of my favorites.
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When I was looking over the new spells, one of the first things I noticed was the similarity between Simulacrum and Create Magen. I know it's going to take me a bit more time to process the differences and similarities of these spells, but don't think it takes much looking over to notice that they both fill a very similar role. Guess I'm just curious on what you guys think about this too.
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I see them as very different.
Create Magen has a short casting time and easier to cast more than once as the consumed materials are 1/3 of the cost of Simulacrum's. The Magem is useful and permanent, it can be healed, and it recovers things on rests. There is no limit, beyond resources, to how many you can have at once. The Magems are not that powerful, however.
Simulacrum has an insanely long cast time of 12 hours and costs 1500 gp per cast and you can only have one at a time - significant limitations But you can create a sim of yourself to double all your other spell slots, abilities, and what-have-you, and they can cast the risky spells for you like a non-basic use of Wish. And they can maintain their own concentration so you basically get to concentrate on two spells at once. Alternatively, you can make a Sim of another - be it an ally or enemy. Imagine a sim of an enemy - the sim knows everything that enemy knows, but is loyal to you and obeys you. So it can provide you with all of that enemy's secrets and can impersonate that enemy if you need it to.
They both have very different uses to generally serve different purposes. Create Magem is for those needing an entourage of minions that are permanent without worrying about the crapfluffery of Planar Binding. Ranging from CR 1 to 3, they're not bad to have around. Sim, however, is for doubling somebody - be it to double resources/magic or for exploiting enemies. Very, different in my eyes.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Looking at the stats of the created creatures I don't see very many players ever using the Create Magen spell. Not just because most campaigns never reach this point, but because by the time you get them a CR 3 creature just isn't very useful. If I were an actual wizard living in that setting, I would probably create a few and have them assist me around the tower with basic tasks such as research, tending to my library, and keeping watch. However in actual play they just don't provide enough tangible benefit to outweigh the drawbacks. What drawbacks; you ask?
"When the magen appears, your hit point maximum decreases by an amount equal to the magen’s challenge rating (minimum reduction of 1). Only a wish spell can undo this reduction to your hit point maximum."
Reading this line of text I don't see the HP being restored after the destruction of the Magen, meaning each one created would accrue a permanent reduction in hit points. Wish CAN fix this, but at an even bigger price. Since this isn't using wish to replicate a spell of 8th level or lower, it comes with a 33% chance of never casting wish again. Its important to mention that finding wish in an item form like a ring or even the deck of many things does NOT bypass this restriction. There are 2 ways around this by RAW/RAI and both are very DM dependent.
1. Find a Genie to grant the wish.
2. Use Simulacrum and have your Sim cast the wish. (Most GM's rule that this still counts as you casting wish and you still suffer the potential consequences.)
It's a nice flavor spell, but I really don't see it being mechanically useful in most cases.
Simulacrum on the other hand is mechanically useful and fills a lot of the flavor roles of create Magen.
I think the issue here is what you mean by "actual play", because what you've described a Wizard doing is exactly what you can use Magen for.
I don't believe they're actually intended for use in combat; while some of them have okay abilities for their (low) rating, the fact that if they die you've permanently lost HP for nothing means that combat is the last place you want them to be. You want them conducting magical research, or going off and completing low risk tasks for you in the world, so all you have to do is return to your wizard's tower or whatever periodically to check in.
Of course that means the value of the spell, or rather the Magen themselves, very much depends upon your group and DM, but if you've ever played a video game that lets you send NPCs off to search for resources and such then I kind of love the idea of being able to do that with magically loyal constructs.
If you want something to fight alongside you, then Simulacrum is definitely the better option for that, but you can only have one of those at a time, and really… why not have both? You don't need to keep either spell prepared, just set up your servants in advance.
Also the other option people don't seem to be considering is you could create four of the cheapest Magen and have them carry you everywhere on a palanquin; wizard royalty shouldn't need regular peasant transport like a wagon, or to waste their energy on transport spells when they could be focusing on more important things like planning which of their childhood enemies whose lives they're going to comprehensively ruin next. 😈
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Yeah, after thinking about this a bit more, I really do like the spell, even if Simulacrum makes the "better" creation. Sometimes just having the ability to have multiple lackeys is just better and as stated earlier, you can use both in tandem. Now, I do think that create magen fits better as a DM spell for flavor, NPCs or as a plot hook, similar to spells like Continual Flame or skywrite, but I can definite see myself and the other players in my group using this spell when we get around to it.
Lets not forget that if you choose to take a higher hit point loss, the Galvan Magen does have a fly speed so the palanquin should also fly. *evil wizard laugh*
Side note: Please let me know if I'm mistaken, but if you use the Wish spell to replicate Greater Restoration on yourself or use the "You allow up to twenty creatures that you can see to regain all hit points, and you end all effects on them described in the greater restoration spell." Would these count towards the "Only a wish spell can undo this reduction to your hit point maximum," thus not triggering the 1/3 chance of losing the ability to cast wish again or would you need to use a nonspell replication use of wish? If so, that alone negates the drawback of this spell, but I've haven't had to deal with similar situations in my group as of yet, so I'm unsure if that would be the case or not.
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Make Magem.
Mage Simulacrum.
Have Simulacrum use Wish to restore your HP.
Unless you have a dick DM rewriting how sims work, the Sims suffer the consequence so you don't risk the 1/3 chance of losing the ability to ever cast Wish again just because you don't want to be seriously HP-nerfed making a few lackeys.
Or have the Sim make the Magem and then instruct the Magem to always obey you. Even if the Sim dies, the Magem stay and will continue to follow your orders.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Using wish to replicate greater restoration would not work. If it did, then the description would read only a wish spell or greater restoration can remove the hit point reduction. Another side note about wish. The things listed in bullet points still count as an overuse of the spell and come with a 33% chance of never casting it again. Those things are just examples to limit the power of an overuse of the spell.
You could always have your Simulacrum cast create Magen and have it tell them to follow your commands.
When the DM smiles, it is already to late.
While this is sort of a solution, it opens up a vulnerability. Going off some sage advice about the nature of the control given by the simulacrum and find greater steed spell, we can se that there is some kind of link that exists between the caster and the created creature that surpasses disguises and magic that alters your appearance. Even if someone perfectly impersonates you, they still wouldn't be able to give commands to your sim. However if you tell your sim to follow the orders of a party member they wouldn't have that innate magical link that confirms their identity. Meaning someone could impersonate that party member and issue orders to it.
I don't see any reason why the control given by the Create Magen spell would work any differently. While this sort of work around is definitely an option; it also opens up a vulnerability that I personally wouldn't take.
many people may disagree with me on this but the way it reads to me and my table is that the wish spell is it is divided into three layers
layer one replicating spells (no downsides from this)
layer two the other effects listed in the spell description(you suffer the stress but not the risk of losing the spell or the dm twisting your words)
layer three whatever you damn choose (full downsides)
via this interpretation fallens idea would work and not risk losing the spell but eh this doesn't really affect anyone
this will definitely be disapproved of but i thought i'd share it
if i say something inflammatory the intention is not to trigger an emotional response and the fact that it does so is purely accidental and I sincerely apologise if it does
Those many people are wrong. That is how Wish works. This is Rules as Written, Rules as Intended and confirmed by developers in tweets by Jeremy Crawford.
However, Fallen's example of using the 2nd option of wish to heal or 1st option to replicate greater restoration would both fail. As per the rules in Create Magen spell the hit point reduction can only be rectified by using Wish. This isn't healing and would be a 3rd option of Wish.
If you know in advance you're going to want to use Create Magen then consider the School of Necromancy Wizard. They have a feature that your hit point maximum cannot be reduced by any means - thus nullifying the drawback of Create Magen.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
but the restoring lost max hitpoints isn't replicating a spell it is one of the described options of wish(layer two)
also may i ask what is your reasoning for saying you have to use layer three?(no snark just curious)
if i say something inflammatory the intention is not to trigger an emotional response and the fact that it does so is purely accidental and I sincerely apologise if it does
Because I've barely slept all week and misread one line.
Option 2 is fine.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
There is one other possible workaround, beside the Necromancer. Cast the Clone spell on yourself first. For 120 days while it matures you make Magen. Your clone that you enter when you die should maintain the loyalty and control of the Magen. When your spirit enters your younger clone, it should have your full hit points. The Clone spell doesn't specify HP. Which means depending on how literally your table takes the line from Create Magen that says only a wish spell works, it might work.
Also note that Magen don't die if you do. This allows that interaction to work, unlike Create Homunculus. The other aspect to this is that you could have independent Magen with a deceased creator or master. Do with that what you will.
It's definitely intended to be a world creation, DM spell. So are many of my favorites.