Yes, I've lost Concentration a couple of times that I might have kept with those Feats. But I'm playing a High Elf so I didn't have an extra Feat and I felt I get more out of the Dex increase at Lvl 8. But it's surprisingly few times during the year long campaign that I've lost Concentration. I feel it's better to try to avoid or reduce the damage in the first place. There have been quite a many sessions where everybody else in the party takes serious damage and my Bladesinger none. In addition, during Blade Song his Concentration ST is +5 which is not terrible.
I try to use terrain and cover as much as possible. With 50 ft speed and tactical battle maps it's often possible.
Have you ever felt you are missing War Caster or Resilient Con to boost your concentration checks?
I think I've decided on Mobile. Now trying to figure out if I need War Caster or Resilient Con... :D
Between levels 5 and 12, I don't think I ever lost concentration from an attack while in bladesong on any single-class bladesinger I played, so I was never missing War Caster or Resilient Con. One single class baldesinger we played went several levels (5-8 I think) without ever getting HIT in bladesong. I have lost concentration from AOE spells and from enemy abilities (Vrocks screech causing stun and dropping bladesong). Warcaster and resilient constitution would help there, but those instances are rare.
I would get warcaster over mobile, but if you get mobile you probably should take ASIs at level 8 and 12 because you are going to be behind compared to someone who took a half feat or an ASI.
Because the bladesinger is so MAD I don't like feats that do not boost intelligence or dexterity.
What is your favorite build for an all-rounded bladesinger?
I am currently thinking custom lineage for feat and darkvision.
Fey touched at 1st (misty step and silvery barbs) and ResCon at 4th, then Int at 8th.
It depends on what level you are going to.
Fey Touched is my favorite feat. I like Hex with it because I can't pick up silvery barbs on the wizard list. I think silvery barbs is a must have if your DM allows it, but beware of using it. Most of the time you do not want to use it unless the enemy crits. Shield is a much better reaction in most circumstances.
The most powerful is probably a single class, but in terms of fun there are 3 builds I like:
1. Single class baldesinger - probably the most powerful. In terms of combat power there is no time where giving up spell levels is worth it.
2. Arcane Trickster 4/bladesinger X - in this build start out as a Rogue for the dex save and extra skill and weapon proficiencies. It goes Rogue1/wizard2/rogue4 then wizard forever. I really like a variant human on this one with Fey touched. Get expertise in athletics and this character is extremely versatile.
3. Undead Warlock x/bladesinger y - For this build I like to start as a wizard, then take a level in warlock, then take 5 more levels in wizard. Then you either can do more warlock for invocations, warlock spells and a familiar to be versatile or more wizard to be a tank. On this build I like a half-elf high elf with the weapon proficiency option and trade longbow for hand crossbow, long sword for rapier and shortbow for whip. Pick up scimitar at wizard 2 and you have all the weapons you want. If your DM does not let you swap racial weapon proficiencies you can go Drow if you can deal with sunlight sensitivity. On this build I start with S8/D16/C10/I17/W10/Ch14. Then push Intelligence to 18 at 5th level (Wiz4/Warlock1) with Fey Touched and Silvery Barbs.
With this character you have armor of agathys (which is better than false life) and Hex as warlock spells, a short rest spell slot. You have form of dread which causes fear when you hit an enemy. So you have enemies frightened in addition to running a really high AC. You also get temp hps from form of dread or armor of agathys. The upside is because you are causing frightened on a lot of enemies you don't necessarily need to run a defense spell like blur or PEG.
I'll be starting as a half-elf, but with custom ability scores so I have 16-14-16 in dex-con-int, and some leftover for wis and cha (which also is nice).
I'll take mobile at 4th and ASIs the rest of the way, at least at 8th and 12th levels.
We're allowed to do some changes to the character later on. So if I find that mobile isn't as fun as I hope, I'll change dex to 17 and take a half feat at level 4 so I'll max dex at 8th.
I have also been contemplating taking 1 level of fighter, either at 1st or at 7th level. Not because I think it will create a more powerful character, but because it just fits with the image I have of the character. But I'll try pure bladesinger first, hopefully it'll be fun.
What is your favorite build for an all-rounded bladesinger?
I am currently thinking custom lineage for feat and darkvision.
Fey touched at 1st (misty step and silvery barbs) and ResCon at 4th, then Int at 8th.
It depends on what level you are going to.
Fey Touched is my favorite feat. I like Hex with it because I can't pick up silvery barbs on the wizard list. I think silvery barbs is a must have if your DM allows it, but beware of using it. Most of the time you do not want to use it unless the enemy crits. Shield is a much better reaction in most circumstances.
The most powerful is probably a single class, but in terms of fun there are 3 builds I like:
1. Single class baldesinger - probably the most powerful. In terms of combat power there is no time where giving up spell levels is worth it.
2. Arcane Trickster 4/bladesinger X - in this build start out as a Rogue for the dex save and extra skill and weapon proficiencies. It goes Rogue1/wizard2/rogue4 then wizard forever. I really like a variant human on this one with Fey touched. Get expertise in athletics and this character is extremely versatile.
3. Undead Warlock x/bladesinger y - For this build I like to start as a wizard, then take a level in warlock, then take 5 more levels in wizard. Then you either can do more warlock for invocations, warlock spells and a familiar to be versatile or more wizard to be a tank. On this build I like a half-elf high elf with the weapon proficiency option and trade longbow for hand crossbow, long sword for rapier and shortbow for whip. Pick up scimitar at wizard 2 and you have all the weapons you want. If your DM does not let you swap racial weapon proficiencies you can go Drow if you can deal with sunlight sensitivity. On this build I start with S8/D16/C10/I17/W10/Ch14. Then push Intelligence to 18 at 5th level (Wiz4/Warlock1) with Fey Touched and Silvery Barbs.
With this character you have armor of agathys (which is better than false life) and Hex as warlock spells, a short rest spell slot. You have form of dread which causes fear when you hit an enemy. So you have enemies frightened in addition to running a really high AC. You also get temp hps from form of dread or armor of agathys. The upside is because you are causing frightened on a lot of enemies you don't necessarily need to run a defense spell like blur or PEG.
Thanks, I didn't see this when I wrote the post above.
Looks like fun builds for sure. I'm generally not too fan of multiclasses, especially for casters, but I think I'll have to try some of that later. Not sure if it'll be as bladesinger though.
Hopefully now, the pure BS will be fun enough and I'll see what I'll do for the next campaign (or if my BS dies in this campaign)... :)
Exactly, it's mainly the damage from non-attacks (where the AC doesn't help) that are a threat, especially if not of a type that Absorb Elements protects from.
I agree, it's hard to fit many Feats since preferably you would like to have both Dex and Int high, and reasonably good Con.
Counterspell, Fireball, Slow, Summon Shadowspawn (which I cast at 4th lvl)
Dimension Door, Polymorph
Animate Objects, Wall of Force
In other words I don't use any Concentration spells to Buff or improve my own melee. My main weapon is Sun Blade (which is easy to keep on, unlike Shadow Blade, and doesn't compete with the first round Bonus Action to start Blade Song.
On the topic of multiclassing, starting level 1 as a Artificer then going Wizard the rest of the way is also a very solid build. You get CON saves, more cantrips and access to spells like Cure Wounds which is normally unavailable to Wizard.
The drawback of course is the 1 level delay in hitting your Wizard features.
With a Artificer start, it makes it a lot easier to take the Mobile feat over the Warcaster feat at level 1 thanks to the aforementioned CON save proficiency that Artificers have.
Counterspell, Fireball, Slow, Summon Shadowspawn (which I cast at 4th lvl)
Dimension Door, Polymorph
Animate Objects, Wall of Force
In other words I don't use any Concentration spells to Buff or improve my own melee. My main weapon is Sun Blade (which is easy to keep on, unlike Shadow Blade, and doesn't compete with the first round Bonus Action to start Blade Song.
Looks great. I plan on being mostly melee, at least at the start, so it's shadowblade for me to begin with at least. And thank you for helping me decide what to do with Mobile, looking forward to picking that at 4th level. Hopefully it'll be a blast.
On the topic of multiclassing, starting level 1 as a Artificer then going Wizard the rest of the way is also a very solid build. You get CON saves, more cantrips and access to spells like Cure Wounds which is normally unavailable to Wizard.
The drawback of course is the 1 level delay in hitting your Wizard features.
With a Artificer start, it makes it a lot easier to take the Mobile feat over the Warcaster feat at level 1 thanks to the aforementioned CON save proficiency that Artificers have.
I really struggle with having no CON proficiency. Not only for the concentration checks, but also because CON-saves often are seriously nasty. Well, at least they used to be. I've only played one 5e campaign, but at least they used to be in 3e/3.5e/PF (we skipped 4e...). I was really close doing Fighter 1, mostly because it fits better with my character story, but also because I really see him as a dual wielder and getting the fighting style would be nice. I agree though that the artificier grants more in ways of spells, but I decided against doing that party because of not wanting to be the party healbot (I ended up doing that in our last campaign, so I figured I'll stay away from healing now, even though being the healer while also being the tank probably saved my life on numerous occasions. Now though, I hope we have enough of other meat shields in the party for me to just swoop in and out with mobile and hitting them hard). But more cantrips would have been nice.
And speaking of cantrips. Is Blade Ward worth considering? I'm thinking Prestitigitation, Booming Blade and Chill Touch to start and either GFB, Toll the dead, Minor Illusion or possibly BladeWard at 4th.
Shadow Blade is fine, especially if you are in dim light or darkness. I used it regularly on levels 3-4 and as upcast on levels 5-6. But not always. It's really what you give up in terms of other concentration spells. After level 6 I didn't bother preparing it any more.
CON ST based spells can be nasty, but I'd say not as nasty as WIS based saves (for which wizards fortunately have proficiency). DEX, WIS and CON are probably the most common ST's that come up in 5e.
Shadow Blade is fine, especially if you are in dim light or darkness. I used it regularly on levels 3-4 and as upcast on levels 5-6. But not always. It's really what you give up in terms of other concentration spells. After level 6 I didn't bother preparing it any more.
CON ST based spells can be nasty, but I'd say not as nasty as WIS based saves (for which wizards fortunately have proficiency). DEX, WIS and CON are probably the most common ST's that come up in 5e.
Agree 100%. IME Wisdom and dex are the most important save for bladesingers. Con saves are nasty, but most require a hit with an attack and that does not happen enough to make it worth investing in proficiency.
Shadowblade is good, but I usually run a defensive spell like blur or PEG. If you are playing a bladesinger truely optimized for melee with a spell like that, in tier 2 it is not uncommon that enemies need a double 20 (two 20s with disadvantage) to hit you with an attack at all.
Now though, I hope we have enough of other meat shields in the party for me to just swoop in and out with mobile and hitting them hard). But more cantrips would have been nice.
And speaking of cantrips. Is Blade Ward worth considering? I'm thinking Prestitigitation, Booming Blade and Chill Touch to start and either GFB, Toll the dead, Minor Illusion or possibly BladeWard at 4th.
You will survive in melee longer than most of those meat shields will, especially if you have a 14 constitution. A bladesinger does decent damage in melee, but does not hit hard compared to a martial. She will basically hit about as hard as a Ranger, Battlesmith or Hexblade but typically not as hard as a Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin or Rogue. Where she has those classes beat is AC and effective hit points/ability to take damage.
No on blade ward IMO. It is nearly useless. It only works against weapon attacks and it should be rare that you get hit by them, especially after your first turn. If you get hit before your turn you would not have been able to cast it anyway. To use it you are going to have to give up a damagaing cantrip on your attack action, usually for no reason. On top of that you need to drop a prepared cantrip for it.
My (warforged, it made sense for the campaign) Bladesinger remains one of my favourite characters to date. Spirit Shroud & Steel Wind Strike are mean when stacked. My DM also regretted the flame tongue rapier. Wish we’d be able to get up to the high levels so I could have Blade of Disaster….
Take a look at Mind Sliver or Frostbite for a cantrip slot - both do damage and have a debuff effect, which is nice. As said, Blade ward doesn’t make sense as a useful spell except in extremely limited circumstances. Use your cantrip slot for something else and take the dodge action instead.
WRT feats, casting a spell as an opportunity attack shouldn’t be overlooked. It’s also worth a conversation with your DM if the war caster feat allowing you to use a shield overrules the class stricture about not using a shield. I’ve never found mobile an especially useful feat, but that’s mostly a play style thing around triggering opportunity attacks.
I did find myself in a situation in our first session where I suddenly was flanked by two opponents. Having had Mobile then while dual wielding would have let me out of that situation beautyfully. But then again, how often would I use it? I guess I'll have a few more combats before I need to decide.
I Mind Sliver or Frostbite can be an alternative to Blade Ward, I do agree that just dodging would be wiser in such situations. Or, get a "free disengage" if I do get mobile.'
War Caster both for a lot less hassle dual wielding, AoO-spell and especially the advantage to concentration checks would also be very, very nice...
I find that making a Bladesinger has an unusual amount of build alternatives. I do like to consider most alternatives when creating a character, but I can't remember ever struggling this much in deciding on the final build.
I definitely agree that you can build it many ways, even effectively. And in any given situation you have an arsenal of choices, so you don't have to play it the same way every encounter.
I wouldn't worry about planning building the optimal character beforehand. Let it grow organically. See what you like, and maybe what Magic Items you get, if any. You can experiment preparing different spells and see what works for you.
We just finished the Curse of Strahd campaign yesterday, so I have about a year (and c. 100 h) of playing with my Bladesinger. Proudly I must say it was my Bladesinger who decapitated von Strahd with the Sun Blade in the final battle after Counterspelling Strahd's last critical try to kill us.
I've prioritized Dex over Int, but will probably even it out at the next ASI. I think both are fine and you don't go wrong with either. I tend to think Dex is more important early, but Int becomes at least as important later.
I'd say not only not to worry about how to build an optimal character beforehand, but do not aim to make an "optimal" character at all in the sense that you optimize one given thing (be it damage output in melee or whatever). It's more fun to be versatile and reasonably good at many things than always doing the same optimized trick.
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Have you ever felt you are missing War Caster or Resilient Con to boost your concentration checks?
I think I've decided on Mobile. Now trying to figure out if I need War Caster or Resilient Con... :D
Yes, I've lost Concentration a couple of times that I might have kept with those Feats. But I'm playing a High Elf so I didn't have an extra Feat and I felt I get more out of the Dex increase at Lvl 8. But it's surprisingly few times during the year long campaign that I've lost Concentration. I feel it's better to try to avoid or reduce the damage in the first place. There have been quite a many sessions where everybody else in the party takes serious damage and my Bladesinger none. In addition, during Blade Song his Concentration ST is +5 which is not terrible.
I try to use terrain and cover as much as possible. With 50 ft speed and tactical battle maps it's often possible.
Between levels 5 and 12, I don't think I ever lost concentration from an attack while in bladesong on any single-class bladesinger I played, so I was never missing War Caster or Resilient Con. One single class baldesinger we played went several levels (5-8 I think) without ever getting HIT in bladesong. I have lost concentration from AOE spells and from enemy abilities (Vrocks screech causing stun and dropping bladesong). Warcaster and resilient constitution would help there, but those instances are rare.
I would get warcaster over mobile, but if you get mobile you probably should take ASIs at level 8 and 12 because you are going to be behind compared to someone who took a half feat or an ASI.
Because the bladesinger is so MAD I don't like feats that do not boost intelligence or dexterity.
It depends on what level you are going to.
Fey Touched is my favorite feat. I like Hex with it because I can't pick up silvery barbs on the wizard list. I think silvery barbs is a must have if your DM allows it, but beware of using it. Most of the time you do not want to use it unless the enemy crits. Shield is a much better reaction in most circumstances.
The most powerful is probably a single class, but in terms of fun there are 3 builds I like:
1. Single class baldesinger - probably the most powerful. In terms of combat power there is no time where giving up spell levels is worth it.
2. Arcane Trickster 4/bladesinger X - in this build start out as a Rogue for the dex save and extra skill and weapon proficiencies. It goes Rogue1/wizard2/rogue4 then wizard forever. I really like a variant human on this one with Fey touched. Get expertise in athletics and this character is extremely versatile.
3. Undead Warlock x/bladesinger y - For this build I like to start as a wizard, then take a level in warlock, then take 5 more levels in wizard. Then you either can do more warlock for invocations, warlock spells and a familiar to be versatile or more wizard to be a tank. On this build I like a half-elf high elf with the weapon proficiency option and trade longbow for hand crossbow, long sword for rapier and shortbow for whip. Pick up scimitar at wizard 2 and you have all the weapons you want. If your DM does not let you swap racial weapon proficiencies you can go Drow if you can deal with sunlight sensitivity. On this build I start with S8/D16/C10/I17/W10/Ch14. Then push Intelligence to 18 at 5th level (Wiz4/Warlock1) with Fey Touched and Silvery Barbs.
With this character you have armor of agathys (which is better than false life) and Hex as warlock spells, a short rest spell slot. You have form of dread which causes fear when you hit an enemy. So you have enemies frightened in addition to running a really high AC. You also get temp hps from form of dread or armor of agathys. The upside is because you are causing frightened on a lot of enemies you don't necessarily need to run a defense spell like blur or PEG.
We're starting the new campaign today.
I'll be starting as a half-elf, but with custom ability scores so I have 16-14-16 in dex-con-int, and some leftover for wis and cha (which also is nice).
I'll take mobile at 4th and ASIs the rest of the way, at least at 8th and 12th levels.
We're allowed to do some changes to the character later on. So if I find that mobile isn't as fun as I hope, I'll change dex to 17 and take a half feat at level 4 so I'll max dex at 8th.
I have also been contemplating taking 1 level of fighter, either at 1st or at 7th level. Not because I think it will create a more powerful character, but because it just fits with the image I have of the character. But I'll try pure bladesinger first, hopefully it'll be fun.
Thanks, I didn't see this when I wrote the post above.
Looks like fun builds for sure. I'm generally not too fan of multiclasses, especially for casters, but I think I'll have to try some of that later. Not sure if it'll be as bladesinger though.
Hopefully now, the pure BS will be fun enough and I'll see what I'll do for the next campaign (or if my BS dies in this campaign)... :)
Exactly, it's mainly the damage from non-attacks (where the AC doesn't help) that are a threat, especially if not of a type that Absorb Elements protects from.
I agree, it's hard to fit many Feats since preferably you would like to have both Dex and Int high, and reasonably good Con.
Just in case some one is interested in, my current (the given game day, now 9th lvl Bladesinger) spell selection is:
On the topic of multiclassing, starting level 1 as a Artificer then going Wizard the rest of the way is also a very solid build. You get CON saves, more cantrips and access to spells like Cure Wounds which is normally unavailable to Wizard.
The drawback of course is the 1 level delay in hitting your Wizard features.
With a Artificer start, it makes it a lot easier to take the Mobile feat over the Warcaster feat at level 1 thanks to the aforementioned CON save proficiency that Artificers have.
Looks great. I plan on being mostly melee, at least at the start, so it's shadowblade for me to begin with at least. And thank you for helping me decide what to do with Mobile, looking forward to picking that at 4th level. Hopefully it'll be a blast.
I really struggle with having no CON proficiency. Not only for the concentration checks, but also because CON-saves often are seriously nasty. Well, at least they used to be. I've only played one 5e campaign, but at least they used to be in 3e/3.5e/PF (we skipped 4e...). I was really close doing Fighter 1, mostly because it fits better with my character story, but also because I really see him as a dual wielder and getting the fighting style would be nice. I agree though that the artificier grants more in ways of spells, but I decided against doing that party because of not wanting to be the party healbot (I ended up doing that in our last campaign, so I figured I'll stay away from healing now, even though being the healer while also being the tank probably saved my life on numerous occasions. Now though, I hope we have enough of other meat shields in the party for me to just swoop in and out with mobile and hitting them hard). But more cantrips would have been nice.
And speaking of cantrips. Is Blade Ward worth considering? I'm thinking Prestitigitation, Booming Blade and Chill Touch to start and either GFB, Toll the dead, Minor Illusion or possibly BladeWard at 4th.
Shadow Blade is fine, especially if you are in dim light or darkness. I used it regularly on levels 3-4 and as upcast on levels 5-6. But not always. It's really what you give up in terms of other concentration spells. After level 6 I didn't bother preparing it any more.
CON ST based spells can be nasty, but I'd say not as nasty as WIS based saves (for which wizards fortunately have proficiency). DEX, WIS and CON are probably the most common ST's that come up in 5e.
Agree 100%. IME Wisdom and dex are the most important save for bladesingers. Con saves are nasty, but most require a hit with an attack and that does not happen enough to make it worth investing in proficiency.
Shadowblade is good, but I usually run a defensive spell like blur or PEG. If you are playing a bladesinger truely optimized for melee with a spell like that, in tier 2 it is not uncommon that enemies need a double 20 (two 20s with disadvantage) to hit you with an attack at all.
You will survive in melee longer than most of those meat shields will, especially if you have a 14 constitution. A bladesinger does decent damage in melee, but does not hit hard compared to a martial. She will basically hit about as hard as a Ranger, Battlesmith or Hexblade but typically not as hard as a Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin or Rogue. Where she has those classes beat is AC and effective hit points/ability to take damage.
No on blade ward IMO. It is nearly useless. It only works against weapon attacks and it should be rare that you get hit by them, especially after your first turn. If you get hit before your turn you would not have been able to cast it anyway. To use it you are going to have to give up a damagaing cantrip on your attack action, usually for no reason. On top of that you need to drop a prepared cantrip for it.
This just happened to come out from Treantmonk:
https://youtu.be/DOZT6pOoT1k
My (warforged, it made sense for the campaign) Bladesinger remains one of my favourite characters to date. Spirit Shroud & Steel Wind Strike are mean when stacked. My DM also regretted the flame tongue rapier. Wish we’d be able to get up to the high levels so I could have Blade of Disaster….
Take a look at Mind Sliver or Frostbite for a cantrip slot - both do damage and have a debuff effect, which is nice. As said, Blade ward doesn’t make sense as a useful spell except in extremely limited circumstances. Use your cantrip slot for something else and take the dodge action instead.
WRT feats, casting a spell as an opportunity attack shouldn’t be overlooked. It’s also worth a conversation with your DM if the war caster feat allowing you to use a shield overrules the class stricture about not using a shield. I’ve never found mobile an especially useful feat, but that’s mostly a play style thing around triggering opportunity attacks.
I did find myself in a situation in our first session where I suddenly was flanked by two opponents. Having had Mobile then while dual wielding would have let me out of that situation beautyfully. But then again, how often would I use it? I guess I'll have a few more combats before I need to decide.
I Mind Sliver or Frostbite can be an alternative to Blade Ward, I do agree that just dodging would be wiser in such situations. Or, get a "free disengage" if I do get mobile.'
War Caster both for a lot less hassle dual wielding, AoO-spell and especially the advantage to concentration checks would also be very, very nice...
I find that making a Bladesinger has an unusual amount of build alternatives. I do like to consider most alternatives when creating a character, but I can't remember ever struggling this much in deciding on the final build.
Edit: Forgot to comment all...
I definitely agree that you can build it many ways, even effectively. And in any given situation you have an arsenal of choices, so you don't have to play it the same way every encounter.
I wouldn't worry about planning building the optimal character beforehand. Let it grow organically. See what you like, and maybe what Magic Items you get, if any. You can experiment preparing different spells and see what works for you.
We just finished the Curse of Strahd campaign yesterday, so I have about a year (and c. 100 h) of playing with my Bladesinger. Proudly I must say it was my Bladesinger who decapitated von Strahd with the Sun Blade in the final battle after Counterspelling Strahd's last critical try to kill us.
Sound fun! :D
Did you guys increase Dex or Int first?
I've prioritized Dex over Int, but will probably even it out at the next ASI. I think both are fine and you don't go wrong with either. I tend to think Dex is more important early, but Int becomes at least as important later.
I'd say not only not to worry about how to build an optimal character beforehand, but do not aim to make an "optimal" character at all in the sense that you optimize one given thing (be it damage output in melee or whatever). It's more fun to be versatile and reasonably good at many things than always doing the same optimized trick.