Goose4Hire - agree - from my original posting i have had DM's go both ways on this. What i have found the most interesting is that most community members struggle with the same arguments. They are as seen above...
1) MultiClass / Wizard Rules don't allow it.. People go around and around because Multi-Class and Wizard basically say go back to the 'class' (aka Wizard) in this case for specific rules. What I counter with is the Wizard Class specific rule, which applies here. If a spell is in your spell book and you have a spell slot of sufficient level to cast it, you can prepare it. Since these tome specifically say they function as a spell book for you.. you can prepare them. That rule doesn't say you have to a specific level wizard, just that you have to have it in your spellbook.
2) Prepare vs Prepared Mechanic - People go round and round on they are the same or they are separate. I always counter with Preparing a spell, and a Prepared Spell are two different actions of magic using class. As a magic using class you 'prepare spells' and as a result you have 'prepared spells'. These magical items allow one to swap prepared spells, there is no preparing action on the 'swapped in' spell.
3) You don't have a Wizard Spell Slot high enough.. I counter with the PHB... Spell slots are agnostic of class. You have them or you don't. Class doesn't matter.
To your point about allowing only a few 'optional' new spell this is true in the RAW sense. I like to counter for my DM's this is a Magical Spellbook, that allows the Wizard to swap prepared spells, which no other primary caster can do. There is little to no chance the former owner didn't add spells to the Book that they could have scribed for this exact purpose. The magic item says it has at least these spells... thus implying it also has others...
If that were true then if you found a higher level mage’s spellbook you could also prepare higher level spells than your level allows and you can’t- because of the basic and multiclassing rules. So if you somehow got the fulminating treatise you could change out any of the level 1 spells but not fireball - until you reach L5 as a mage at which point you nderstand how to cast L3 spells and can now switch in fireball. The rules tell you what you understand how to cast- the tome doesn’t add to that knowledge it just provides access to selected spells and a quick way to change out one’s the rules say you can cast. (And an extra benefit that depends on the school).
Wi1dBi11 - that's not how it works. multi lass rules only share an example of how you can use your higher slots to UP cast lower level spells. They actually say nothing about what you can prepare other then to go to the class specific rules to determine what you can prepare, in this case wizard. Basic wizard class rules say you have to scribe spells from another wizards spell book into yours to be able to have it in your spell book to cast it. To be able to scribe you need to be able to cast a wizard spell of that level, (ie be able to cast 3rd level wizard spell to scribe a 3rd level wizard spell). Typically at no time is another random wizard spell book ever considered 'your spellbook'. this is the basis of the scribe mechanic in 5th edition.
The specific rule of this Magic Book states it is a spell book for you. That line means you don't scribe anything within the book that may or may not be there, and you as a wizard would be able to prepare it if you have a spell slot to cast that spell. (ie if you can cast 3rd level spells you can prepare fireball). The way spell slots work in the 5th is that a 3rd level slot is a third level slot. Doesn't matter if its Arcane, Divine, Granted, Born With, or Nature based... the prepare mechanic says if you have a spell slot to cast 3rd, 5th, or 9th you can prepare a spell to use that slot regardless of what level wizard you.
You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
This specific rule over rides the general rules as noted by Goose4Hire.
Your specific point about not adding knowledge is true. ie if the book has a 5th level spell and you can't cast 5th level spells you don't get the knowledge to cast it. but if you a 5th have a slot you can prepare and cast it.
Unfortunately, as far as multiclassing goes I believe they are correct. When preparing spells for the day as a wizard you only use your wizard levels as information as to what to prepare.
So purely RAW
If you multiclass lets say a sorcerer 8 and wizard 2, you would have your 5 sorc cantrips, and 9 known spells of 4th level and lower (along with any subclass spells but ignoring that). In addition, you would have your 3 wizard cantrips and 8 first level spells (of which you can prepare up to your int+2 (in this case)).
This DOES leave you with 5th level spell slots you can use to upcast but NOT learn, inscribe, prepare, swap out sorc or wiz spells of 5th level until you would be able to with that class alone.
THIS BEING SAID I am of the opinion that with the way the item is written it would be legal to swap a prepared 1st level spell (that you naturally prepare at dawn or w/e) with a spell from fulminating treatise like Wall of Force. You would then be IMO legally able to cast the spell using the 5th level spell slot you have being a 10th level fullcaster.
THIS DOES NOT mean that you can just inscribe the spells from the treatise into your spellbook as you need to be able to prepare the spell to do that. You also CAN NOT prepare the spell naturally from the spellbook as once again you can only prepare 1st level spells as you are a 2nd level wizard (YOU COULD PREPARE FROM BOTH BOOKS HOWEVER (just only of a level that you can cast as a wizard ALONE).
This is all to say imo it works even within RAW but it is not carte blanche to just prepare/inscribe/cast whatever spells you want.
None of this matters if your DM rules in another fashion obviously.
As far as the optional spells. As you stated there isn't a case for it RAW, it just says it contains these spells and you can add more.
Honestly, I think it's a bit greedy given everything, but the character is already that level so the only thing it really disrupts is party balance. Whether or not its actual or just perceived balance.
Personally, if I was the DM I would maybe help homebrew a different set of spells. If there was some kind of campaign/character-based theme the player wanted to explore that goes beyond simple magical schools, but I'd be very careful about giving out what could be compared to just free spell scroll inscribing.
I feel that most of the books are pretty good about giving a wide variety of spells at different levels and that they are fine as is. Especially when are overruling foundational rules around spells already. Maybe if it was a legendary item, maybe if it was cursed and chose the spells instead of you, there are ways it could be interesting, but giving that amount of freedom to one player seems unsporting at best.
The items pretty nice but make sure you go over how it works with your DM. They might not see it how you do. Other than that i do think its a great multiclass item
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"Anyone can smith at the cosmic anvil, yet only I can forge a weapon as good as thee."
I just got the Atlas of Endless Horizons as a 5th level wizard. I do not intend to multiclass into another casting class so the base point will never apply to me because I won't have high enough slots to cast anything I can't prepare naturally.
However, I believe the matter resolves as follows:
1. You have your spells prepared in the conventional way in accordance with the multiclassing rules. 2. You use the book's ability to replace one of those spells with a spell from the book (of the right school) NOTE there are no limitations put on the spell from the book (other than the school) it does NOT say a spell of the same level or a spell you could otherwise prepare. 3. The replaced spell from the book is now one you know how to cast, occupying one of your prepared spell opportunities, until you prepare something else in its place. 4. If you have a spell slot capable of casting the spell you know, you can cast it.
An interesting point with my book in particular is it allows casting Word of Recall as a wizard spell when it is usually only a cleric spell. If we assume the PC is a high level cleric wizard with 6th level slots, I think they should be able to cast it even if neither class could alone, but would understand a ruling that they would need to know how to cast 6th level spells from one class or the other first. Think of the implications if you have that cleric 11/wizard X not prepare Word of Recall as a cleric spell (which they could have) and instead swap out one of their first level wizard spells for it and telling them they can't cast that 6th level spell with their 6th level slot because their wizard levels aren't high enough to cast wizard spells of that level. Does that make sense to you?
The first night I attuned to this book I swapped out a first level spell for Gate (a ninth level spell). I can't cast it of course, but I know how to, and I believe my character would be fascinated by the research implications of that. The next day I prepared something practical again, but now whenever I have some free time at the end of the adventuring day I am swapping out a prepared spell with a high level conjuration I can't cast just so I can have the knowledge of it if not the power to follow through.
I play a monk with a 2-level wizard dip in a current campaign, with the party now at total character level of 15. We recently found an Atlas of Endless Horizons in a treasure horde. The full wizard in the party didn't want it (no attuned items she was willing to swap out), so I asked the DM whether I could use it. He said: you're are wizard - go for it!
He interprets the item description exactly as written, and thus not only allows me to swap ANY spell from the Atlas for any of my currently prepared wizard spells, regardless of level, he also allows me to cast them, as long as I have spell slots left (obviously only 3 as a 2nd level wizard, so that itself limits the possible shenanigans). None of this has been game breaking or unbalanced compared to the other characters (all of whom carry badass, often legendary magic items themselves). Instead, it has enabled us to try some really fun, creative strategies for infiltration, evacuation, etc.
A lot of you will not agree with that interpretation or allow it in your games, but that doesn't mean it's wrong or broken.
2 comments 1) as a DM I reject your arguments and insist that ( in my world anyway) the basic multiclassing rules apply and you are limited to subbing out spells of a level you can cast based on your class(es). Why? Because adoring it your way breaks the power “curve” of the game fairly seriously. As a DM it’s my job to maintain that curve so that everyone faces the same power curve more or less. 2) As a player (and occasional power gamer) I like your ideas as it generates an OP PC that the power gamer in me appreciates. Good luck getting it passed your DM however.
2 comments 1) as a DM I reject your arguments and insist that ( in my world anyway) the basic multiclassing rules apply and you are limited to subbing out spells of a level you can cast based on your class(es). Why? Because adoring it your way breaks the power “curve” of the game fairly seriously. As a DM it’s my job to maintain that curve so that everyone faces the same power curve more or less. 2) As a player (and occasional power gamer) I like your ideas as it generates an OP PC that the power gamer in me appreciates. Good luck getting it passed your DM however.
I understand your ruling, but I don't see why it would be so OP to allow a multiclass character to cast a 6th level spell if they happen to have a sixth level slot, attuned to this magic item and swapped out one of their other spells prepared for the ability to do so (expending a charge and the requisite time). For comparison the multiclass bard got an instrument of the same rarity that lets him cast 4th level spells even though he doesn't even have 4th level slots yet.
I'm inclined to agree with the OP's interpretation on this one; the ability of these tomes only states that you replace a prepared spell, so there's no reason to assume that you need to follow the normal rules for preparing a spell, as it sets its own restrictions on what spells you can swap in (must be in the book, must be of a certain school of magic). While the spell becomes a prepared spell in this case, you haven't had to prepare it as you normally would.
This means you can swap in spells of a level higher than you could normally prepare, or even higher than you can actually cast (though this would of course serve no purpose), so even if as a Wizard you could normally only prepare spells up to 2nd-level, you could use the tome to swap in a spell of 3rd-level or higher and then cast it if you have the necessary spell slot(s) to do so.
In essence the tome bypasses the normal restrictions of multi-classing spellcasters, because it enables you to both know spells you couldn't normally learn as a Wizard, and also to "prepare" them without actually preparing them in the normal way. Put another way, the restriction on wizards preparing spells is on the act of preparing them, not on what can be prepared; it's just that normally these two things are the same (because the only way for a spell to become prepared is for you to actually follow the rules for preparing it).
However this exception only applies to the spells already in the spellbook, you still have to follow all the normal rules for adding additional spells to the book, so you can't prepare the book's extra spells as part of a long rest (you must spend a charge to swap them in after preparing your spells for the day), etc.
A DM may rule otherwise, but as others have pointed out this is not really any different to other magic items that can enable a character to cast spells they couldn't normally either due to spell list restrictions or lacking the spell slots to do so, except that in this case you do still need the necessary slot(s), it just doesn't matter how you get them.
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Yeah OP is entirely correct. You can swap a prepped spell for on in the book.
Whats more is once youve done so, you have a prepped spell of the new spell's level prepped. So you technically can prepare spells of that level.
Which is the only requirement you needed to learn more of them.
So once you swap in a higher level spell you can now preare, and thus learn, higher level spells than before.
These spellbook items break the multiclass restriction on wizard spellcasting open wide. Even more so than they already are.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
So once you swap in a higher level spell you can now preare, and thus learn, higher level spells than before.
I'm not sure that this part would follow; the rules for learning spells requires the spell to be "of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table" so you're still bound by your Wizard level for that route.
Meanwhile for copying into the spellbook (from a scroll or such) the restriction is "you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare"; higher level spells swapped in from the tome are arguably not "spells you can prepare", they're spells that you can swap in using the tome's special feature which is it's own thing. The oddity of the behaviour is that while they may be prepared (ready and possible to use) as a result of that feature, you didn't actually prepare them (you didn't follow the rules for preparing and casting spells during a long rest).
That said, your interpretation would also require your DM to put scrolls in your path containing Wizard spells of a higher level then you can cast (such that you could copy from them); if they're happy to do that then they may be happy to let you learn them.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
So once you swap in a higher level spell you can now preare, and thus learn, higher level spells than before.
I'm not sure that this part would follow; the rules for learning spells requires the spell to be "of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table" so you're still bound by your Wizard level for that route.
Meanwhile for copying into the spellbook (from a scroll or such) the restriction is "you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare"; higher level spells swapped in from the tome are arguably not "spells you can prepare", they're spells that you can swap in using the tome's special feature which is it's own thing. The oddity of the behaviour is that while they may be prepared (ready and possible to use) as a result of that feature, you didn't actually prepare them (you didn't follow the rules for preparing and casting spells during a long rest).
That said, your interpretation would also require your DM to put scrolls in your path containing Wizard spells of a higher level then you can cast (such that you could copy from them); if they're happy to do that then they may be happy to let you learn them.
You're misquoting rules there. It happens to a lot of folk with this topic. Curious as to why. But it does.
Here's the actual rule:
"When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it."
So, we know that as long as we can prepare spells of that level, we can learn more of that level.
Here is one of the books:
"If you spend 1 minute studying the book, you can expend 1 charge to replace one of your prepared wizard spells with a different spell in the book."
So you have swapped out one of your prepared spells for a different, now prepared spell.
If you swap out magic missile for fireball... you now have fireball prepared. So you can, demonstably, prepare a 3rd level spell. Since you have one prepared.
Thus, can learn and add 3rd level spells into your spellbook.
It also wouldn't require scrolls from your DM. Just have a full class Wizard in the party and get this Treatise. Be some other caster, like a cleric or whatever. Next levelup, take one level of wizard. Boom, you're in business. Start copying your wizard-bro's spells. Profit.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You're misquoting rules there. It happens to a lot of folk with this topic. Curious as to why. But it does.
No I'm not, both quotes I gave are literally copy/pasted from the Wizard rules; you even repeated one of the rules that I quoted!
To learn spells when levelling up as a Wizard the spells must be "of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table" (under Preparing and Casting Spells in the Wizard rules). To copy a spell into a spellbook it must be "of a spell level you can prepare" (the "Your Spellbook" box under Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher in the Wizard rules).
If you're going to accuse someone of misquoting rules please check that they actually did so first. 😝
So you have swapped out one of your prepared spells for a different, now prepared spell.
The spell is prepared, but you did not prepare it, you used the tome's special feature to swap it in which is not the same thing. This special feature of the tome enables you to swap in a spell without having to follow the normal rules for preparing it, but you are still unable to prepare it normally.
The Preparing and Casting Spells rules state that to prepare a spell it must be "of a level for which you have spell slots", however the Multiclassing rules for Spellcasting state "you determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class" which means that the "level for which you have spell slots" is determined by your level in the Wizard class only.
This means that if you have three levels in Wizard it doesn't matter how many levels you have in another casting class, or what spell slots you have available; the maximum level of spell that you can prepare is 2nd-level (same as for a 3rd-level Wizard). The tome doesn't change that, it merely lets you bypass the restriction by spending one of its charges; this is not preparing a spell because you did not follow the rules for preparing a spell (because if you did you would have been limited to 2nd-level).
It also wouldn't require scrolls from your DM. Just have a full class Wizard in the party and get this Treatise. Be some other caster, like a cleric or whatever. Next levelup, take one level of wizard. Boom, you're in business. Start copying your wizard-bro's spells. Profit.
You need scrolls (or other spellbooks) to copy additional spells from. The spells you get for free when levelling up are explicitly limited by your level in the Wizard class (in the rule I quoted), meaning that a three-level Wizard multiclass can't learn or prepare 3rd-level or higher spells, and because they can't prepare 3rd-level or higher they also can't copy them from scrolls etc.
The Tasha's tomes only enable limited exceptions because they a) come with spells included and b) let you swap in a spell without preparing it. It's not overriding the normal rules, it's side-stepping them (at a cost of one of the item's charges).
Another way of thinking about it is that while a swapped spell is "prepared", you did not prepare it, the tome did.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
You're misquoting rules there. It happens to a lot of folk with this topic. Curious as to why. But it does.
No I'm not, both quotes I gave are literally copy/pasted from the Wizard rules; you even repeated one of the rules that I quoted!
To learn spells when levelling up as a Wizard the spells must be "of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table" (under Preparing and Casting Spells in the Wizard rules). To copy a spell into a spellbook it must be "of a spell level you can prepare" (the "Your Spellbook" box under Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher in the Wizard rules).
If you're going to accuse someone of misquoting rules please check that they actually did so first. 😝
I'm not going to distinguish between quoting the wrong for a situation vs typing it out incorrectly. if you say a rule quote applies, and quote something not applicable, I'll characterize that as misquoting. As something has gone awry with your quote.
We are discussing adding spells to their spellbook, we are not discussing leveling up and gaining free level up spells. If you quote the rules for leveling up to show why they cannot add spells found to their spellbook, you are misquoting the rules. Simple as.
So you have swapped out one of your prepared spells for a different, now prepared spell.
The spell is prepared, but you did not prepare it, you used the tome's special feature to swap it in which is not the same thing. This special feature of the tome enables you to swap in a spell without having to follow the normal rules for preparing it, but you are still unable to prepare it normally.
The Preparing and Casting Spells rules state that to prepare a spell it must be "of a level for which you have spell slots", however the Multiclassing rules for Spellcasting state "you determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class" which means that the "level for which you have spell slots" is determined by your level in the Wizard class only.
This means that if you have three levels in Wizard it doesn't matter how many levels you have in another casting class, or what spell slots you have available; the maximum level of spell that you can prepare is 2nd-level (same as for a 3rd-level Wizard). The tome doesn't change that, it merely lets you bypass the restriction by spending one of its charges; this is not preparing a spell because you did not follow the rules for preparing a spell (because if you did you would have been limited to 2nd-level).
If you have the spell prepared, you can prepare it. That's tautology.
It also wouldn't require scrolls from your DM. Just have a full class Wizard in the party and get this Treatise. Be some other caster, like a cleric or whatever. Next levelup, take one level of wizard. Boom, you're in business. Start copying your wizard-bro's spells. Profit.
You need scrolls (or other spellbooks) to copy additional spells from. The spells you get for free when levelling up are explicitly limited by your level in the Wizard class (in the rule I quoted), meaning that a three-level Wizard multiclass can't learn or prepare 3rd-level or higher spells, and because they can't prepare 3rd-level or higher they also can't copy them from scrolls etc.
The Tasha's tomes only enable limited exceptions because they a) come with spells included and b) let you swap in a spell without preparing it. It's not overriding the normal rules, it's side-stepping them (at a cost of one of the item's charges).
Another way of thinking about it is that while a swapped spell is "prepared", you did not prepare it, the tome did.
You only need a 1 level dip. ClericX/Wiz1 for example, who gets the Treatise, can swap out their prepared magic missile for a prepared Fireball. They now have prepared a 3rd level spell. They can now add 3rd level spells to their spellbook by copying them in.
Think of it this way, you really need to pick one interpretation here. You've been arguing that when they swap their magic missile for fireball that they haven't prepared that fireball. But if that is the case then the spellbook feature does nothing except cause you to lose a prepared spell. because if you don't have that swapped in fireball "prepared" then you cannot cast it.
It necessarily is prepared, because that's what it says, but also because it cannot function if it isn't. I understand not liking that it was written this way, but it was.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Whats more is once youve done so, you have a prepped spell of the new spell's level prepped. So you technically can prepare spells of that level.
This is silly, you can only prepare spells of a level you can cast individually.
The swapping of prepared spells happens after you determine what you prepare for the day.
At no point does your original spellbook come into play you are preparing the higher-level spells and casting them out of the respective Tome not your own spellbook so this talk of breaking multiclass rules is moot.
I'm not reading this whole thread but I've skimmed through it. From what I understand, the main argument of this is that you can multiclass for higher-level spell slots, put spells you couldn't normally prepare into your book, then swap those into prepared slots with the Atlas of Endless Horizons.
Now, it seems many people are missing a key point. You wouldn't be able to put those spells into your book in the first place. Here's what it says in the wizard's spellbook description (emphasis mine):
Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
If you couldn't prepare the spell originally, you couldn't even put it into the book in the first place. In other words, any spell you can have in your book you can already prepare.
I'm not reading this whole thread but I've skimmed through it. From what I understand, the main argument of this is that you can multiclass for higher-level spell slots, put spells you couldn't normally prepare into your book, then swap those into prepared slots with the Atlas of Endless Horizons.
Now, it seems many people are missing a key point. You wouldn't be able to put those spells into your book in the first place. Here's what it says in the wizard's spellbook description (emphasis mine):
Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
If you couldn't prepare the spell originally, you couldn't even put it into the book in the first place. In other words, any spell you can have in your book you can already prepare.
The way the tomes work means you can bypass the normal rules for preparing spells, but only for spells that came with the tome itself.
So for an atlas of endless horizons for example, if you're not a high enough level in Wizard you still can't learn 6th-level spells or copy them into your book, yet you do know word of recall. So what you can do is prepare another spell then use one of the tome's charges to swap it for word of recall later, thus enabling you to cast that spell (if you have the 6th-level slot to cast it with).
It only works with the spells that come with the tome though, because the rules for learning and preparing spells (like the one you quoted) still prevent any other spells from being learned or prepared based on your Wizard level as normal.
Pretty sure only Ravnodaus is trying to argue it lets you learn and prepare other higher level spells as well, despite no rule supporting that argument.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
No rule other than the very one they quoted. That says you can copy spells if they're a level you can prepare. And since you have word of recall prepared, that means you can prepare 6th level spells. As evidenced by having a 6th level spell prepared.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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Goose4Hire - agree - from my original posting i have had DM's go both ways on this. What i have found the most interesting is that most community members struggle with the same arguments. They are as seen above...
1) MultiClass / Wizard Rules don't allow it.. People go around and around because Multi-Class and Wizard basically say go back to the 'class' (aka Wizard) in this case for specific rules. What I counter with is the Wizard Class specific rule, which applies here. If a spell is in your spell book and you have a spell slot of sufficient level to cast it, you can prepare it. Since these tome specifically say they function as a spell book for you.. you can prepare them. That rule doesn't say you have to a specific level wizard, just that you have to have it in your spellbook.
2) Prepare vs Prepared Mechanic - People go round and round on they are the same or they are separate. I always counter with Preparing a spell, and a Prepared Spell are two different actions of magic using class. As a magic using class you 'prepare spells' and as a result you have 'prepared spells'. These magical items allow one to swap prepared spells, there is no preparing action on the 'swapped in' spell.
3) You don't have a Wizard Spell Slot high enough.. I counter with the PHB... Spell slots are agnostic of class. You have them or you don't. Class doesn't matter.
To your point about allowing only a few 'optional' new spell this is true in the RAW sense. I like to counter for my DM's this is a Magical Spellbook, that allows the Wizard to swap prepared spells, which no other primary caster can do. There is little to no chance the former owner didn't add spells to the Book that they could have scribed for this exact purpose. The magic item says it has at least these spells... thus implying it also has others...
I am the Patron of Light, not its Patron Saint. ***Casts Flame Strike ***
If that were true then if you found a higher level mage’s spellbook you could also prepare higher level spells than your level allows and you can’t- because of the basic and multiclassing rules. So if you somehow got the fulminating treatise you could change out any of the level 1 spells but not fireball - until you reach L5 as a mage at which point you nderstand how to cast L3 spells and can now switch in fireball. The rules tell you what you understand how to cast- the tome doesn’t add to that knowledge it just provides access to selected spells and a quick way to change out one’s the rules say you can cast. (And an extra benefit that depends on the school).
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Wi1dBi11 - that's not how it works. multi lass rules only share an example of how you can use your higher slots to UP cast lower level spells. They actually say nothing about what you can prepare other then to go to the class specific rules to determine what you can prepare, in this case wizard. Basic wizard class rules say you have to scribe spells from another wizards spell book into yours to be able to have it in your spell book to cast it. To be able to scribe you need to be able to cast a wizard spell of that level, (ie be able to cast 3rd level wizard spell to scribe a 3rd level wizard spell). Typically at no time is another random wizard spell book ever considered 'your spellbook'. this is the basis of the scribe mechanic in 5th edition.
The specific rule of this Magic Book states it is a spell book for you. That line means you don't scribe anything within the book that may or may not be there, and you as a wizard would be able to prepare it if you have a spell slot to cast that spell. (ie if you can cast 3rd level spells you can prepare fireball). The way spell slots work in the 5th is that a 3rd level slot is a third level slot. Doesn't matter if its Arcane, Divine, Granted, Born With, or Nature based... the prepare mechanic says if you have a spell slot to cast 3rd, 5th, or 9th you can prepare a spell to use that slot regardless of what level wizard you.
You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
This specific rule over rides the general rules as noted by Goose4Hire.
Your specific point about not adding knowledge is true. ie if the book has a 5th level spell and you can't cast 5th level spells you don't get the knowledge to cast it. but if you a 5th have a slot you can prepare and cast it.
I am the Patron of Light, not its Patron Saint. ***Casts Flame Strike ***
Unfortunately, as far as multiclassing goes I believe they are correct. When preparing spells for the day as a wizard you only use your wizard levels as information as to what to prepare.
So purely RAW
If you multiclass lets say a sorcerer 8 and wizard 2, you would have your 5 sorc cantrips, and 9 known spells of 4th level and lower (along with any subclass spells but ignoring that). In addition, you would have your 3 wizard cantrips and 8 first level spells (of which you can prepare up to your int+2 (in this case)).
This DOES leave you with 5th level spell slots you can use to upcast but NOT learn, inscribe, prepare, swap out sorc or wiz spells of 5th level until you would be able to with that class alone.
THIS BEING SAID I am of the opinion that with the way the item is written it would be legal to swap a prepared 1st level spell (that you naturally prepare at dawn or w/e) with a spell from fulminating treatise like Wall of Force. You would then be IMO legally able to cast the spell using the 5th level spell slot you have being a 10th level fullcaster.
THIS DOES NOT mean that you can just inscribe the spells from the treatise into your spellbook as you need to be able to prepare the spell to do that. You also CAN NOT prepare the spell naturally from the spellbook as once again you can only prepare 1st level spells as you are a 2nd level wizard (YOU COULD PREPARE FROM BOTH BOOKS HOWEVER (just only of a level that you can cast as a wizard ALONE).
This is all to say imo it works even within RAW but it is not carte blanche to just prepare/inscribe/cast whatever spells you want.
None of this matters if your DM rules in another fashion obviously.
As far as the optional spells. As you stated there isn't a case for it RAW, it just says it contains these spells and you can add more.
Honestly, I think it's a bit greedy given everything, but the character is already that level so the only thing it really disrupts is party balance. Whether or not its actual or just perceived balance.
Personally, if I was the DM I would maybe help homebrew a different set of spells. If there was some kind of campaign/character-based theme the player wanted to explore that goes beyond simple magical schools, but I'd be very careful about giving out what could be compared to just free spell scroll inscribing.
I feel that most of the books are pretty good about giving a wide variety of spells at different levels and that they are fine as is. Especially when are overruling foundational rules around spells already. Maybe if it was a legendary item, maybe if it was cursed and chose the spells instead of you, there are ways it could be interesting, but giving that amount of freedom to one player seems unsporting at best.
The items pretty nice but make sure you go over how it works with your DM. They might not see it how you do. Other than that i do think its a great multiclass item
"Anyone can smith at the cosmic anvil, yet only I can forge a weapon as good as thee."
My Homebrew Please click it, they have my family.
I just got the Atlas of Endless Horizons as a 5th level wizard. I do not intend to multiclass into another casting class so the base point will never apply to me because I won't have high enough slots to cast anything I can't prepare naturally.
However, I believe the matter resolves as follows:
1. You have your spells prepared in the conventional way in accordance with the multiclassing rules. 2. You use the book's ability to replace one of those spells with a spell from the book (of the right school) NOTE there are no limitations put on the spell from the book (other than the school) it does NOT say a spell of the same level or a spell you could otherwise prepare. 3. The replaced spell from the book is now one you know how to cast, occupying one of your prepared spell opportunities, until you prepare something else in its place. 4. If you have a spell slot capable of casting the spell you know, you can cast it.
An interesting point with my book in particular is it allows casting Word of Recall as a wizard spell when it is usually only a cleric spell. If we assume the PC is a high level cleric wizard with 6th level slots, I think they should be able to cast it even if neither class could alone, but would understand a ruling that they would need to know how to cast 6th level spells from one class or the other first. Think of the implications if you have that cleric 11/wizard X not prepare Word of Recall as a cleric spell (which they could have) and instead swap out one of their first level wizard spells for it and telling them they can't cast that 6th level spell with their 6th level slot because their wizard levels aren't high enough to cast wizard spells of that level. Does that make sense to you?
The first night I attuned to this book I swapped out a first level spell for Gate (a ninth level spell). I can't cast it of course, but I know how to, and I believe my character would be fascinated by the research implications of that. The next day I prepared something practical again, but now whenever I have some free time at the end of the adventuring day I am swapping out a prepared spell with a high level conjuration I can't cast just so I can have the knowledge of it if not the power to follow through.
Echoing Tieren, but taking it a step further:
I play a monk with a 2-level wizard dip in a current campaign, with the party now at total character level of 15. We recently found an Atlas of Endless Horizons in a treasure horde. The full wizard in the party didn't want it (no attuned items she was willing to swap out), so I asked the DM whether I could use it. He said: you're are wizard - go for it!
He interprets the item description exactly as written, and thus not only allows me to swap ANY spell from the Atlas for any of my currently prepared wizard spells, regardless of level, he also allows me to cast them, as long as I have spell slots left (obviously only 3 as a 2nd level wizard, so that itself limits the possible shenanigans). None of this has been game breaking or unbalanced compared to the other characters (all of whom carry badass, often legendary magic items themselves). Instead, it has enabled us to try some really fun, creative strategies for infiltration, evacuation, etc.
A lot of you will not agree with that interpretation or allow it in your games, but that doesn't mean it's wrong or broken.
2 comments
1) as a DM I reject your arguments and insist that ( in my world anyway) the basic multiclassing rules apply and you are limited to subbing out spells of a level you can cast based on your class(es). Why? Because adoring it your way breaks the power “curve” of the game fairly seriously. As a DM it’s my job to maintain that curve so that everyone faces the same power curve more or less.
2) As a player (and occasional power gamer) I like your ideas as it generates an OP PC that the power gamer in me appreciates. Good luck getting it passed your DM however.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I understand your ruling, but I don't see why it would be so OP to allow a multiclass character to cast a 6th level spell if they happen to have a sixth level slot, attuned to this magic item and swapped out one of their other spells prepared for the ability to do so (expending a charge and the requisite time). For comparison the multiclass bard got an instrument of the same rarity that lets him cast 4th level spells even though he doesn't even have 4th level slots yet.
I'm inclined to agree with the OP's interpretation on this one; the ability of these tomes only states that you replace a prepared spell, so there's no reason to assume that you need to follow the normal rules for preparing a spell, as it sets its own restrictions on what spells you can swap in (must be in the book, must be of a certain school of magic). While the spell becomes a prepared spell in this case, you haven't had to prepare it as you normally would.
This means you can swap in spells of a level higher than you could normally prepare, or even higher than you can actually cast (though this would of course serve no purpose), so even if as a Wizard you could normally only prepare spells up to 2nd-level, you could use the tome to swap in a spell of 3rd-level or higher and then cast it if you have the necessary spell slot(s) to do so.
In essence the tome bypasses the normal restrictions of multi-classing spellcasters, because it enables you to both know spells you couldn't normally learn as a Wizard, and also to "prepare" them without actually preparing them in the normal way. Put another way, the restriction on wizards preparing spells is on the act of preparing them, not on what can be prepared; it's just that normally these two things are the same (because the only way for a spell to become prepared is for you to actually follow the rules for preparing it).
However this exception only applies to the spells already in the spellbook, you still have to follow all the normal rules for adding additional spells to the book, so you can't prepare the book's extra spells as part of a long rest (you must spend a charge to swap them in after preparing your spells for the day), etc.
A DM may rule otherwise, but as others have pointed out this is not really any different to other magic items that can enable a character to cast spells they couldn't normally either due to spell list restrictions or lacking the spell slots to do so, except that in this case you do still need the necessary slot(s), it just doesn't matter how you get them.
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Yeah OP is entirely correct. You can swap a prepped spell for on in the book.
Whats more is once youve done so, you have a prepped spell of the new spell's level prepped. So you technically can prepare spells of that level.
Which is the only requirement you needed to learn more of them.
So once you swap in a higher level spell you can now preare, and thus learn, higher level spells than before.
These spellbook items break the multiclass restriction on wizard spellcasting open wide. Even more so than they already are.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I'm not sure that this part would follow; the rules for learning spells requires the spell to be "of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table" so you're still bound by your Wizard level for that route.
Meanwhile for copying into the spellbook (from a scroll or such) the restriction is "you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare"; higher level spells swapped in from the tome are arguably not "spells you can prepare", they're spells that you can swap in using the tome's special feature which is it's own thing. The oddity of the behaviour is that while they may be prepared (ready and possible to use) as a result of that feature, you didn't actually prepare them (you didn't follow the rules for preparing and casting spells during a long rest).
That said, your interpretation would also require your DM to put scrolls in your path containing Wizard spells of a higher level then you can cast (such that you could copy from them); if they're happy to do that then they may be happy to let you learn them.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
You're misquoting rules there. It happens to a lot of folk with this topic. Curious as to why. But it does.
Here's the actual rule:
"When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it."
So, we know that as long as we can prepare spells of that level, we can learn more of that level.
Here is one of the books:
"If you spend 1 minute studying the book, you can expend 1 charge to replace one of your prepared wizard spells with a different spell in the book."
So you have swapped out one of your prepared spells for a different, now prepared spell.
If you swap out magic missile for fireball... you now have fireball prepared. So you can, demonstably, prepare a 3rd level spell. Since you have one prepared.
Thus, can learn and add 3rd level spells into your spellbook.
It also wouldn't require scrolls from your DM. Just have a full class Wizard in the party and get this Treatise. Be some other caster, like a cleric or whatever. Next levelup, take one level of wizard. Boom, you're in business. Start copying your wizard-bro's spells. Profit.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
No I'm not, both quotes I gave are literally copy/pasted from the Wizard rules; you even repeated one of the rules that I quoted!
To learn spells when levelling up as a Wizard the spells must be "of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table" (under Preparing and Casting Spells in the Wizard rules). To copy a spell into a spellbook it must be "of a spell level you can prepare" (the "Your Spellbook" box under Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher in the Wizard rules).
If you're going to accuse someone of misquoting rules please check that they actually did so first. 😝
The spell is prepared, but you did not prepare it, you used the tome's special feature to swap it in which is not the same thing. This special feature of the tome enables you to swap in a spell without having to follow the normal rules for preparing it, but you are still unable to prepare it normally.
The Preparing and Casting Spells rules state that to prepare a spell it must be "of a level for which you have spell slots", however the Multiclassing rules for Spellcasting state "you determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class" which means that the "level for which you have spell slots" is determined by your level in the Wizard class only.
This means that if you have three levels in Wizard it doesn't matter how many levels you have in another casting class, or what spell slots you have available; the maximum level of spell that you can prepare is 2nd-level (same as for a 3rd-level Wizard). The tome doesn't change that, it merely lets you bypass the restriction by spending one of its charges; this is not preparing a spell because you did not follow the rules for preparing a spell (because if you did you would have been limited to 2nd-level).
You need scrolls (or other spellbooks) to copy additional spells from. The spells you get for free when levelling up are explicitly limited by your level in the Wizard class (in the rule I quoted), meaning that a three-level Wizard multiclass can't learn or prepare 3rd-level or higher spells, and because they can't prepare 3rd-level or higher they also can't copy them from scrolls etc.
The Tasha's tomes only enable limited exceptions because they a) come with spells included and b) let you swap in a spell without preparing it. It's not overriding the normal rules, it's side-stepping them (at a cost of one of the item's charges).
Another way of thinking about it is that while a swapped spell is "prepared", you did not prepare it, the tome did.
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I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I'm not going to distinguish between quoting the wrong for a situation vs typing it out incorrectly. if you say a rule quote applies, and quote something not applicable, I'll characterize that as misquoting. As something has gone awry with your quote.
We are discussing adding spells to their spellbook, we are not discussing leveling up and gaining free level up spells. If you quote the rules for leveling up to show why they cannot add spells found to their spellbook, you are misquoting the rules. Simple as.
If you have the spell prepared, you can prepare it. That's tautology.
You only need a 1 level dip. ClericX/Wiz1 for example, who gets the Treatise, can swap out their prepared magic missile for a prepared Fireball. They now have prepared a 3rd level spell. They can now add 3rd level spells to their spellbook by copying them in.
Think of it this way, you really need to pick one interpretation here. You've been arguing that when they swap their magic missile for fireball that they haven't prepared that fireball. But if that is the case then the spellbook feature does nothing except cause you to lose a prepared spell. because if you don't have that swapped in fireball "prepared" then you cannot cast it.
It necessarily is prepared, because that's what it says, but also because it cannot function if it isn't. I understand not liking that it was written this way, but it was.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
This is silly, you can only prepare spells of a level you can cast individually.
The swapping of prepared spells happens after you determine what you prepare for the day.
At no point does your original spellbook come into play you are preparing the higher-level spells and casting them out of the respective Tome not your own spellbook so this talk of breaking multiclass rules is moot.
I'm not reading this whole thread but I've skimmed through it. From what I understand, the main argument of this is that you can multiclass for higher-level spell slots, put spells you couldn't normally prepare into your book, then swap those into prepared slots with the Atlas of Endless Horizons.
Now, it seems many people are missing a key point. You wouldn't be able to put those spells into your book in the first place. Here's what it says in the wizard's spellbook description (emphasis mine):
If you couldn't prepare the spell originally, you couldn't even put it into the book in the first place. In other words, any spell you can have in your book you can already prepare.
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The way the tomes work means you can bypass the normal rules for preparing spells, but only for spells that came with the tome itself.
So for an atlas of endless horizons for example, if you're not a high enough level in Wizard you still can't learn 6th-level spells or copy them into your book, yet you do know word of recall. So what you can do is prepare another spell then use one of the tome's charges to swap it for word of recall later, thus enabling you to cast that spell (if you have the 6th-level slot to cast it with).
It only works with the spells that come with the tome though, because the rules for learning and preparing spells (like the one you quoted) still prevent any other spells from being learned or prepared based on your Wizard level as normal.
Pretty sure only Ravnodaus is trying to argue it lets you learn and prepare other higher level spells as well, despite no rule supporting that argument.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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No rule other than the very one they quoted. That says you can copy spells if they're a level you can prepare. And since you have word of recall prepared, that means you can prepare 6th level spells. As evidenced by having a 6th level spell prepared.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.