My DM and I have been having an argument recently about the nature of luck in the universe of DnD. It stemmed from an expression of my own interest in being able to play a "Luck Domain" Cleric, one who would make wagers and influence dice rolls to tie together a gameplay and roleplaying idea in one delicious flavour win. However, he vehemently disagreed with me, stating that luck isn't suited to Clerics at all, that it doesn't make any sort of flavour sense at all.
So what do you good people think? I know there are luck gods and so on, but even with that he still disagrees. Do you?
So it really depends on your setting. For example, there is Tymora in the Forgotten Realms, or Avandra in the Nentir Vale. It just takes a bit of searching to find a fortune-based god to follow. Deities of Fate could also be quite a good role, as you are manipulating the luck of people to ensure that your deity's prophecies come true.
Mechanically, there isn't an official cleric domain that fills the role that well. However, there are alternate options. You could go for the "lucky person" idea. For this, you become a halfling, and take a couple of levels in divination wizard.
Halflings get lucky:
Lucky
When you roll a 1 on the d20 for an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll.
Whilst Divination wizards get the following at 2nd level.
Portent
Starting at 2nd level when you choose this school, glimpses of the future begin to press in on your awareness. When you finish a long rest, roll two d20s and record the numbers rolled. You can replace any attack roll, saving throw, or ability check made by you or a creature that you can see with one of these foretelling rolls. You must choose to do so before the roll, and you can replace a roll in this way only once per turn.
Each foretelling roll can be used only once. When you finish a long rest, you lose any unused foretelling rolls.
So you could, for example, start as a cleric, take the knowledge domain to allow you to know about probability, cause and effect, etc. Then, take a couple of levels in wizard to gain access to the school of divination (call it a divine enlightenment that provides you with this, and your spellbook is a "Dummy's Guide to Chance"), then continue with cleric as long as you want. If you game has feats, you could even take the lucky feat!
Lucky
You have inexplicable luck that seems to kick in at just the right moment.
You have 3 luck points. Whenever you make an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw, you can spend one luck point to roll an additional d20. You can choose to spend one of your luck points after you roll the die, but before the outcome is determined. You choose which of the d20s is used for the attack roll, ability check, or saving throw.
You can also spend one luck point when an attack roll is made against you. Roll a d20, and then choose whether the attack uses the attacker's roll or yours. If more than one creature spends a luck point to influence the outcome of a roll, the points cancel each other out; no additional dice are rolled.
You regain your expended luck points when you finish a long rest.
I know this isn't the best alternate, but it's something to think about if your DM doesn't allow homebrew archetypes.
I'm not concerned about an alternative, winning the argument means being able to make the domain.
Okay then,
Being on topic with today's announcement from WotC about the next campaign book being based on the Critical Role universe, the setting that is based on has dunamancy, which is a mixture of time/chance manipulation etc. to adjust potential/fate/luck. In that example, it's explained that it is mostly arcane, but clerics that worship this type of magic also exist. Something to look at.
For my original post, your topic is to settle the argument. If the DM says no to homebrew, then that's that. I was merely offering an alternative if you couldn't persuade them to use a non-official source in their campaign.
I really do not see the issue of why this can't be a thing. If your deity is of lets say luck, misfortune or fate, why wouldn't cleric get abilities themed like that. Closet domain that fits that in the official content, in my opinion would be grave domain for maybe misfortune, but I'm not fully content with that idea. If clerics are able to use arcane magic by their faith to a magic deity I see no reason why a cleric couldn't give advantages/disadvantages/bonuses to by their faith to a deity of luck, misfortune or fate.
I'm not concerned about an alternative, winning the argument means being able to make the domain.
Okay then,
Being on topic with today's announcement from WotC about the next campaign book being based on the Critical Role universe, the setting that is based on has dunamancy, which is a mixture of time/chance manipulation etc. to adjust potential/fate/luck. In that example, it's explained that it is mostly arcane, but clerics that worship this type of magic also exist. Something to look at.
For my original post, your topic is to settle the argument. If the DM says no to homebrew, then that's that. I was merely offering an alternative if you couldn't persuade them to use a non-official source in their campaign.
The DM is generally fine with homebrew, he is just vehemently against the flavour of a Luck Domain Cleric. My failure is perhaps in not explaining exactly why that seems but trurhfully, I don't fully understand him myself. My best offering to the situation is that he believes a Warlock would be inherently better suited as a Luck based servant. The flavour minutia is lost to me tho.
As for there being gods of misfortune and blessing already, I fully agree and the worship of such seems an easy step to make. But it raises an interesting question for both of us. If there are gods of luck, do they really do anything? And if so, does that not make them the most powerful of all? If luck, i.e something that is the opposite of fate exists and a god can influence it, how is it even really a power? It's almost philosophical in nature I think.
Maybe just changing the title of it to fate? "Fate brought us together" is probably much more clerical than "I gave me ol' 50p coin a wee toss and we just happened to bump in to each other."
What is fate in relation to Faerun tho? The ineffable will of the gods? Something tangible they can change, but not us? What are the mechanics of destiny in this world?
Where do prophecies and predestination come from? A god of fate would be bringing certain mortals to certain points, then it is up to them once they arrive what happens next (be it they need luck after that or not)
For example, death gods generally would be linked with fate, as mortals are fated to die, perhaps after achieving a heroic duty that was written into their lives from a young age.
There is also the easiest topic of the Tablets of Fate, a god-tier artefact that denoted the roles and positions of all the gods, even the gods are governed by fate.
There is also the easiest topic of the Tablets of Fate, a god-tier artefact that denoted the roles and positions of all the gods, even the gods are governed by fate.
These are canonical? Because this is a big part of the argument. If the gods must too, bow to destiny, how can luck exist at all?
There is also the easiest topic of the Tablets of Fate, a god-tier artefact that denoted the roles and positions of all the gods, even the gods are governed by fate.
These are canonical? Because this is a big part of the argument. If the gods must too, bow to destiny, how can luck exist at all?
In the Forgotten Realms they were/are. In the change between 1e/2e, they were destroyed, and the whole "gods gain power from their followers" became the norm (read the Time of Troubles trilogy of Shadowdale, Tantras, and Waterdeep for more info there). There is a hint that it may all be an elaborate bluff by overgod to keep gods in order. Then IIRC they were re-established during the second sundering (4e into 5e) where they reset the standard and removed all the stuff from 4e that got backlash (spellplague etc.)
I sort of made my own build to emulate being a cleric of Tymora. I went Halfling and took two levels of divination wizard and I am taking the rest of the levels as lore bard. I am going to take the lucky feat and eventually second chance feat which is a racial feat from Xanathar's. The whole idea is dice manipulation and flavoring it as luck or bending of fate. Halflings can reroll ones. Divination wizards get portent to replace two rolls with foreknown numbers each day. Lore Bards get cutting words which can be flavored as luck and magical secrets will allow you to pick up great cleric spells like spiritual weapon/spirit guardians. Luck feat gives you three rerolls each day and second chance allows you to force a reroll if an enemy will hit you with an attack. You could take bountiful luck instead of second chance which allows your allies to reroll ones. I love playing this character. The announcement of the Critical Role Adventure book is exciting because some of the dunamancy spells we will get will fit extremely well with this concept.
EDIT: I didn't see PokePaladdy post the same concept. This is a character I played and its been effective as a support. Also Bard fits well with its class abilities and they gain access naturally to some of the same healing/support spells. I understand you don't want an alternative but to be honest your DM may not be able to argue with official content being reflavored to fit your concept. But good luck on getting a homebrew Luck Domain I hope it goes well.
Yeah I mean, I can play the official stuff but it's not quite what I want. My going idea for a base domain ability is the ability to bet on other people's rolls. If you win, you get advantage on something, if you lose, you get disadvantage. A gamble with no one except you and your god.
Yeah I mean, I can play the official stuff but it's not quite what I want. My going idea for a base domain ability is the ability to bet on other people's rolls. If you win, you get advantage on something, if you lose, you get disadvantage. A gamble with no one except you and your god.
That sounds cool although it could slow down gameplay maybe I would have to playtest to be sure. I like my build as I play it like a cleric and that I am so lucky my party benefits from just me being present. Its like I am a literal lucky charm. Good luck.
Yeah I mean, I can play the official stuff but it's not quite what I want. My going idea for a base domain ability is the ability to bet on other people's rolls. If you win, you get advantage on something, if you lose, you get disadvantage. A gamble with no one except you and your god.
That sounds cool although it could slow down gameplay maybe I would have to playtest to be sure. I like my build as I play it like a cleric and that I am so lucky my party benefits from just me being present. Its like I am a literal lucky charm. Good luck.
Ithink if you did "the cleric may wager a # of times equal to Wisdom mod" and can only pick a range of numbers equal to proficiency bonus, it wouldn't slow down too much.
Yeah I mean, I can play the official stuff but it's not quite what I want. My going idea for a base domain ability is the ability to bet on other people's rolls. If you win, you get advantage on something, if you lose, you get disadvantage. A gamble with no one except you and your god.
Ithink if you did "the cleric may wager a # of times equal to Wisdom mod" and can only pick a range of numbers equal to proficiency bonus, it wouldn't slow down too much.
Yeah, Wisdom mod usage for sure but the wager itself is only whether the chosen roll passes or fails.
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My DM and I have been having an argument recently about the nature of luck in the universe of DnD. It stemmed from an expression of my own interest in being able to play a "Luck Domain" Cleric, one who would make wagers and influence dice rolls to tie together a gameplay and roleplaying idea in one delicious flavour win. However, he vehemently disagreed with me, stating that luck isn't suited to Clerics at all, that it doesn't make any sort of flavour sense at all.
So what do you good people think? I know there are luck gods and so on, but even with that he still disagrees. Do you?
So it really depends on your setting. For example, there is Tymora in the Forgotten Realms, or Avandra in the Nentir Vale. It just takes a bit of searching to find a fortune-based god to follow. Deities of Fate could also be quite a good role, as you are manipulating the luck of people to ensure that your deity's prophecies come true.
Mechanically, there isn't an official cleric domain that fills the role that well. However, there are alternate options. You could go for the "lucky person" idea. For this, you become a halfling, and take a couple of levels in divination wizard.
Halflings get lucky:
Whilst Divination wizards get the following at 2nd level.
So you could, for example, start as a cleric, take the knowledge domain to allow you to know about probability, cause and effect, etc. Then, take a couple of levels in wizard to gain access to the school of divination (call it a divine enlightenment that provides you with this, and your spellbook is a "Dummy's Guide to Chance"), then continue with cleric as long as you want. If you game has feats, you could even take the lucky feat!
I know this isn't the best alternate, but it's something to think about if your DM doesn't allow homebrew archetypes.
I'm not concerned about an alternative, winning the argument means being able to make the domain.
Okay then,
Being on topic with today's announcement from WotC about the next campaign book being based on the Critical Role universe, the setting that is based on has dunamancy, which is a mixture of time/chance manipulation etc. to adjust potential/fate/luck. In that example, it's explained that it is mostly arcane, but clerics that worship this type of magic also exist. Something to look at.
For my original post, your topic is to settle the argument. If the DM says no to homebrew, then that's that. I was merely offering an alternative if you couldn't persuade them to use a non-official source in their campaign.
I really do not see the issue of why this can't be a thing. If your deity is of lets say luck, misfortune or fate, why wouldn't cleric get abilities themed like that. Closet domain that fits that in the official content, in my opinion would be grave domain for maybe misfortune, but I'm not fully content with that idea. If clerics are able to use arcane magic by their faith to a magic deity I see no reason why a cleric couldn't give advantages/disadvantages/bonuses to by their faith to a deity of luck, misfortune or fate.
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The DM is generally fine with homebrew, he is just vehemently against the flavour of a Luck Domain Cleric. My failure is perhaps in not explaining exactly why that seems but trurhfully, I don't fully understand him myself. My best offering to the situation is that he believes a Warlock would be inherently better suited as a Luck based servant. The flavour minutia is lost to me tho.
As for there being gods of misfortune and blessing already, I fully agree and the worship of such seems an easy step to make. But it raises an interesting question for both of us. If there are gods of luck, do they really do anything? And if so, does that not make them the most powerful of all? If luck, i.e something that is the opposite of fate exists and a god can influence it, how is it even really a power? It's almost philosophical in nature I think.
Maybe just changing the title of it to fate? "Fate brought us together" is probably much more clerical than "I gave me ol' 50p coin a wee toss and we just happened to bump in to each other."
What is fate in relation to Faerun tho? The ineffable will of the gods? Something tangible they can change, but not us? What are the mechanics of destiny in this world?
Where do prophecies and predestination come from? A god of fate would be bringing certain mortals to certain points, then it is up to them once they arrive what happens next (be it they need luck after that or not)
For example, death gods generally would be linked with fate, as mortals are fated to die, perhaps after achieving a heroic duty that was written into their lives from a young age.
There is also the easiest topic of the Tablets of Fate, a god-tier artefact that denoted the roles and positions of all the gods, even the gods are governed by fate.
These are canonical? Because this is a big part of the argument. If the gods must too, bow to destiny, how can luck exist at all?
In the Forgotten Realms they were/are. In the change between 1e/2e, they were destroyed, and the whole "gods gain power from their followers" became the norm (read the Time of Troubles trilogy of Shadowdale, Tantras, and Waterdeep for more info there). There is a hint that it may all be an elaborate bluff by overgod to keep gods in order. Then IIRC they were re-established during the second sundering (4e into 5e) where they reset the standard and removed all the stuff from 4e that got backlash (spellplague etc.)
That's a lot of homework. Is there a TL;DR for fates existence? Doed anyone really have free will in this world?
I sort of made my own build to emulate being a cleric of Tymora. I went Halfling and took two levels of divination wizard and I am taking the rest of the levels as lore bard. I am going to take the lucky feat and eventually second chance feat which is a racial feat from Xanathar's. The whole idea is dice manipulation and flavoring it as luck or bending of fate. Halflings can reroll ones. Divination wizards get portent to replace two rolls with foreknown numbers each day. Lore Bards get cutting words which can be flavored as luck and magical secrets will allow you to pick up great cleric spells like spiritual weapon/spirit guardians. Luck feat gives you three rerolls each day and second chance allows you to force a reroll if an enemy will hit you with an attack. You could take bountiful luck instead of second chance which allows your allies to reroll ones. I love playing this character. The announcement of the Critical Role Adventure book is exciting because some of the dunamancy spells we will get will fit extremely well with this concept.
EDIT: I didn't see PokePaladdy post the same concept. This is a character I played and its been effective as a support. Also Bard fits well with its class abilities and they gain access naturally to some of the same healing/support spells. I understand you don't want an alternative but to be honest your DM may not be able to argue with official content being reflavored to fit your concept. But good luck on getting a homebrew Luck Domain I hope it goes well.
Your secret is safe with my indifference - Percy
Yeah I mean, I can play the official stuff but it's not quite what I want. My going idea for a base domain ability is the ability to bet on other people's rolls. If you win, you get advantage on something, if you lose, you get disadvantage. A gamble with no one except you and your god.
That sounds cool although it could slow down gameplay maybe I would have to playtest to be sure. I like my build as I play it like a cleric and that I am so lucky my party benefits from just me being present. Its like I am a literal lucky charm. Good luck.
Your secret is safe with my indifference - Percy
Ithink if you did "the cleric may wager a # of times equal to Wisdom mod" and can only pick a range of numbers equal to proficiency bonus, it wouldn't slow down too much.
Yeah, Wisdom mod usage for sure but the wager itself is only whether the chosen roll passes or fails.