Its CR is 13, so it's Proficiency bonus should be +5. Which means it's perception and stealth (which are double proficient) should be +10, and its passive perception should be 20.
it's important to note that monsters aren't created adhering to the same rules that player characters follow. though they are used as guidelines to create them.
Looking at the Young Red Shadow Dragon it can be inferred that it has a proficiency bonus of +4. The dragon makes melee attacks at +10 to attack, with a strength bonus of +6, so that leaves a +4 contribution from proficiency. As you mentioned, Perception & Stealth seem to be at expertise, therefore doubled proficiency.
Here's the important thing though .... when these monsters are designed, the designer sets the values to what they believe they should be to allow the monster to mechanically behave in the way that they want.
The monster statistics aren't necessarily based on looking on the CR table.
It works the other way around - the monster statistics are created and then the CR is calculated.
You are correct except proficiency bonus is recalculated after determining final CR.
Per the creating a monster chapter of DMG: "With the final challenge rating, you can determine the monster’s proficiency bonus using the Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating table."
On the monster's page it's saves reflect a proficiency bonus of +5, but in the Monster manual it's saves are 1 less. So regardless of whether it is supposed to be a +5 as described by the DMG instructions or a +4 as printed in MM, one or both of these 2 stat blocks need to be changed to match.
The instructions in the Dungeon Master's guide are guidelines that they wrote for others on how to create new monsters.
That the designers of the game chose not to follow the guidelines they wrote is their decision. If you wish to know why, you would have to ask them. :)
The statistics of the dragon are as created by the designers of the game and printed in the Monster Manual and are therefore, by definition, correct and nothing needs to be changed.
The statistics of the dragon are as created by the designers of the game and printed in the Monster Manual and are therefore, by definition, correct and nothing needs to be changed.
The one in the monster manual has different saves than the one in on the monster page.
Edit: and I figured out why. The monster page calculates saves automatically based on proficiencies and CR (in other words using the calculations in DMG).
Ah, interesting - that's a very different problem.
I'll refer that to the developers, thank you!
Also, apologies I misunderstood what you were trying to explain, as I checked the Monster Manual entry on D&D Beyond and compared it to my physical Monster Manual.
With a closer inspection of the shadow dragon template, I noticed the template does not actually include a CR change.
The change in CR was probably to reflect the damage resistance it gains in low light and darkness.
I'm not even sure what to make of this problem anymore. The shadow dragon is a template to modify existing dragons; which means, it should follow all the rules of modifying a monster as listed in the DMG; which includes, recalculating CR and adjusting proficiency to the new CR. But the 1 example of the applied template recalculates CR without changing proficiency.
I've been looking at it for about an hour as well and it's .... odd, not least because of the way that it applies a "template" which is something that was frequently done in 3rd edition and is something that I recall seeing in interviews that the 5th edition designers said they didn't want in 5th edition.
Hopefully the dev team can get the database entry for the monster to show the correct stats though.
Its CR is 13, so it's Proficiency bonus should be +5. Which means it's perception and stealth (which are double proficient) should be +10, and its passive perception should be 20.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/young-red-shadow-dragon
I think the monster manual page has even more mistakes regarding its Proficiency bonus, as even it's save modifiers are wrong there.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/mm/monsters-d#DragonShadow
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D&D Beyond FoundersHi there DxJxC,
it's important to note that monsters aren't created adhering to the same rules that player characters follow. though they are used as guidelines to create them.
Looking at the Young Red Shadow Dragon it can be inferred that it has a proficiency bonus of +4. The dragon makes melee attacks at +10 to attack, with a strength bonus of +6, so that leaves a +4 contribution from proficiency. As you mentioned, Perception & Stealth seem to be at expertise, therefore doubled proficiency.
Here's the important thing though .... when these monsters are designed, the designer sets the values to what they believe they should be to allow the monster to mechanically behave in the way that they want.
The monster statistics aren't necessarily based on looking on the CR table.
It works the other way around - the monster statistics are created and then the CR is calculated.
The Creating a Monster chapter of the Dungeon Master's Guide provides full details.
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If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
You are correct except proficiency bonus is recalculated after determining final CR.
Per the creating a monster chapter of DMG: "With the final challenge rating, you can determine the monster’s proficiency bonus using the Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating table."
On the monster's page it's saves reflect a proficiency bonus of +5, but in the Monster manual it's saves are 1 less. So regardless of whether it is supposed to be a +5 as described by the DMG instructions or a +4 as printed in MM, one or both of these 2 stat blocks need to be changed to match.
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D&D Beyond FoundersThe instructions in the Dungeon Master's guide are guidelines that they wrote for others on how to create new monsters.
That the designers of the game chose not to follow the guidelines they wrote is their decision. If you wish to know why, you would have to ask them. :)
The statistics of the dragon are as created by the designers of the game and printed in the Monster Manual and are therefore, by definition, correct and nothing needs to be changed.
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
The one in the monster manual has different saves than the one in on the monster page.
Edit: and I figured out why. The monster page calculates saves automatically based on proficiencies and CR (in other words using the calculations in DMG).
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D&D Beyond FoundersAh, interesting - that's a very different problem.
I'll refer that to the developers, thank you!
Also, apologies I misunderstood what you were trying to explain, as I checked the Monster Manual entry on D&D Beyond and compared it to my physical Monster Manual.
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
With a closer inspection of the shadow dragon template, I noticed the template does not actually include a CR change.
The change in CR was probably to reflect the damage resistance it gains in low light and darkness.
I'm not even sure what to make of this problem anymore. The shadow dragon is a template to modify existing dragons; which means, it should follow all the rules of modifying a monster as listed in the DMG; which includes, recalculating CR and adjusting proficiency to the new CR. But the 1 example of the applied template recalculates CR without changing proficiency.
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D&D Beyond FoundersI've been looking at it for about an hour as well and it's .... odd, not least because of the way that it applies a "template" which is something that was frequently done in 3rd edition and is something that I recall seeing in interviews that the 5th edition designers said they didn't want in 5th edition.
Hopefully the dev team can get the database entry for the monster to show the correct stats though.
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If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
Arent there a few examples of templates though, like the illithilitch?
There is a template for half-dragons as well.
And just about every humanoid monster is designed to have racial traits added by DM rather than make a human mage, elf mage, halfling mage, etc.
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D&D Beyond FoundersYup, true.
I think that the vod that I'm thinking of was talking about applying things like undead, demon, or lycanthrope as templates.
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If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
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