First off, how dare you try to scapegoat Kyle Brink? The man has only been in his position for three months. No, we will not redirect our anger at him. Our ire will remain squarely on you. Even more so every time you try to pull one of these stunts.
Second, you're still using wording that shows you are lying and spinning in order to control the narrative. No, we still don't accept your manipulative false apology. Try again, and this time admit that you were trying to screw everyone over, and don't try to scapegoat someone this time.
Third, a survey, hidden behind anonymity, is not an open conversation. No, we will not respond in a private manner. If you want feedback on the OGL, even though it's very likely we will not accept it regardless of what you do with it, you will post it here, in the forums, for everyone to see and converse about what needs to change. THIS is an open conversation.
We're not letting you have control of the situation. We are the ones who will decide how this plays out. We will continue to be angry at you, and we will not respond to Kyle's scapegoating. This is your screwup, and you need to take responsibility for it or leave.
We? You write like you are speaking for more people here? using we without specifying who precise you mean is also hiding behind anonymity. And also very aggressively if I may add. Doesn’t leave room for discussion.
If you want feedback on the OGL, even though it's very likely we will not accept it regardless of what you do with it, you will post it here, in the forums, for everyone to see and converse about what needs to change. THIS is an open conversation.
Yeah... Probably too aggressive. I sort of agree with this part though (quoted). This makes sense.
If we are being honest, they don't REALLY want an open conversation. They don't really want a relationship with the fans and players here. They just want to pacify all people spitting venom from this community. A truly open conversation could have happened through their forums here. That's just not what they want.
I regret deeply that maybe it was started by some of WotC actions but now it is just community eating itself. I follow the forums and often enough I do not see a reasonable discussion regarding the changes, only attitude which seems a bit like a blackmail: you give us everything we want or else… also, personal attacks - a new low.
i was thinking. Not sure if it works but let’s say that WotC actually would engage in a discussion. How can they collect royalties from other corpos without harming the community and independent creators? I was thinking that we can make it more of a brainstorming than attacking every single sentence they publish.
The community is spitting up too much venom. I do agree with that. If this is what prevented the total train-wreck of WotC's new (so-called) "OGL" destroying the franchise, then maybe that's a good thing, but there's also a lot of hatred running loose here. It's hard to participate in the forums anymore. At this point, WotC staff would have to be insane to wade into their own forums here, to engage with the community.
(Admittedly, they seem to have no interest in doing so, but how could you blame them? Who would wade into this poop storm?)
Getting the “why are you so upset baby? Don’t be so mean it was only a love tap.” Vibes from some of responses here.
You folks say venom, I say righteous outrage for steps taken to far. I’m sure next as people point to Claire the “Your an x-ist/phobe” attempts will break out, that’s the usual par the course when corps are in a panic.
Have none of you been paying attention to what's happening behind the scenes? I'm aggressive because the executives are trying to control the narrative through manipulation and spinning, and they want us to forget so they can pull more shady stuff. The only reason they're making concessions right now is because Hasbro needs Honor Among Thieves to succeed so they can keep control over Wizards. If it fails, investors can legally force Hasbro to spin Wizards into its own company.
I suggest you all check out YongYea's coverage on Youtube. He goes in depth with what has been reported based on leaks from inside Wizards with links to sources. Wizards employees are also furious and are anonymously leaking information. The executives are only biding their time, and if we get complacent, they're gonna pull something over on us.
Oh, and make no mistake. The survey is to take the discussion out of the public eye. That in itself is shady as hell for a "public discussion."
Let's not forget that these are the same people who treat us like obstacles to their money, according to an employee, and that Cynthia is the one who said D&D is undermonetized compared to video games. I don't think I have to tell you all that any gamer will say video games are over-monetized to hell, what with microtransactions, loot boxes, the attempts to shove NFTs in the mix. Do we want to see this kind of crap in D&D?
i was thinking. Not sure if it works but let’s say that WotC actually would engage in a discussion. How can they collect royalties from other corpos without harming the community and independent creators? I was thinking that we can make it more of a brainstorming than attacking every single sentence they publish.
Well, the first step is not to take 25% of their REVENUE. One, 25% is too much. Two, revenue is all the money they earn back from a sale, including what covers their expenses. Even if it is on any dollar made after they make 750k, it should be no more than 15% of profit, not revenue. Unfortunately, 15% was what was given to favored creators with "sweetheart deals."
That said, part of the reason so much was done in the community is because of this lack of royalties. Doing this will hurt profitability from third party publishers, especially if it stays revenue.
Best change will be to abandon the idea of making a new OGL. There are layers pitching on comments in reddit and sure this is better, but there are still many things that are just bad like the clause that would cripple other VVT for animations.
Either way it is true that Kyle is just a scape goat. The CEOs need to take responsibility.
Have none of you been paying attention to what's happening behind the scenes? I'm aggressive because the executives are trying to control the narrative through manipulation and spinning, and they want us to forget so they can pull more shady stuff. The only reason they're making concessions right now is because Hasbro needs Honor Among Thieves to succeed so they can keep control over Wizards. If it fails, investors can legally force Hasbro to spin Wizards into its own company.
I suggest you all check out YongYea's coverage on Youtube. He goes in depth with what has been reported based on leaks from inside Wizards with links to sources. Wizards employees are also furious and are anonymously leaking information. The executives are only biding their time, and if we get complacent, they're gonna pull something over on us.
Oh, and make no mistake. The survey is to take the discussion out of the public eye. That in itself is shady as hell for a "public discussion."
Let's not forget that these are the same people who treat us like obstacles to their money, according to an employee, and that Cynthia is the one who said D&D is undermonetized compared to video games. I don't think I have to tell you all that any gamer will say video games are over-monetized to hell, what with microtransactions, loot boxes, the attempts to shove NFTs in the mix. Do we want to see this kind of crap in D&D?
Trying to silence the outrage is to be expected as is appeasement but I think in the end this will lead to positive change in particular once the Q4 numbers come out which I'm expecting to be atrocious with the Q1 2023 numbers likely being equally bad. Corporations change when their bottom line is affected and only when their bottom line is affected. Any outrage by the community is completely irrelevant, its only actions with wallets that change's a corporation's attitude. Cancelling Beyond Subscriptions, canceling pre-orders and not buying D&D books is the most effective way for this community to get what they want. Sometimes you have to burn the grass in the fall, so that it gross stronger in the spring.
I know some people are concerned about the D&D franchise itself, that, if Wizards of the Coast D&D fails and dies, that this is the end of D&D.. but I can assure you with 100% confidence that Wizards of the Coast have been stewarts of D&D by name only, the true stewarts of the D&D franchise have always been and continue to be its fan base, we don't need corporations to keep the game alive for us. If Wizards of the Coast dies and its mass-market version of D&D dies with it, nothing will have been lost.
Prklts-Repainting the community as the “problem”. I see what you did there. Not enough anger/venom and too much simping imho.
I don't think our D&D community created this problem. I would agree all this started from WotC's seemingly-immediate neglect of the DnDBeyond website, combined with sleazy activity to sneak in an unfair, probably-illegal, and franchise-destroying OGL. My point is that it is unreasonable to for the community to demand WoTC interact with us through these forums, while also maintaining such a high volume of hatred and outrage.
Prklts-Repainting the community as the “problem”. I see what you did there. Not enough anger/venom and too much simping imho.
I don't think our D&D community created this problem. I would agree all this started from WotC's seemingly-immediate neglect of the DnDBeyond website, combined with sleazy activity to sneak in an unfair, probably-illegal, and franchise-destroying OGL. My point is that it is unreasonable to for the community to demand WoTC interact with us through these forums, while also maintaining such a high volume of hatred and outrage.
It's a fair point but there is something to be said about doing something that aggravates the entire D&D community than claiming that they are too difficult to interact with because they are aggravated. It sort of reminds me of my kids when they refuse to eat their dinner and then complain about being hungry.
I don't expect Wizards of the Coast to care about or interact with the D&D community, they never have before and I was never under any illusions that interaction and collaboration with the community was ever really part of their plan or strategy. We are as they say "obstacles" to the money they think they are entitled to and there is no sense in talking to us cattle.
I'm just glad to see the Wizards of the Coast D&D community wise up and recognize what a crappy company they are supporting when they buy WotC products.
Man the leadership at WOTC really think we are dumb. Here sign this, and we can change things on a whim. YOU made a idiotic business decision to over pay for DnD beyond so you can turn DnD into a bad video game. YOU are just leeches on a thriving community trying to make up for the fact that Hasbro has been tanking their IP for a long time and your only other option is to milk the popularity of DnD.
I regret deeply that maybe it was started by some of WotC actions but now it is just community eating itself. I follow the forums and often enough I do not see a reasonable discussion regarding the changes, only attitude which seems a bit like a blackmail: you give us everything we want or else… also, personal attacks - a new low.
i was thinking. Not sure if it works but let’s say that WotC actually would engage in a discussion. How can they collect royalties from other corpos without harming the community and independent creators? I was thinking that we can make it more of a brainstorming than attacking every single sentence they publish.
Given the attacks from forum members, especially those that have little basis in what's in OGL or how it works, i don't think that the forums are a place for discussion or brainstorming on this topic.
I, from other sources who did oppose the OGL changes, knew what areas weren't covered by OGL... and they mostly tracked to what Kyle wrote. And yet, we had people ranting that OGL will ruin their Twitch feeds and podcasts and webpages. They should have known that OGL didn't deal with that... it's what their world/livelihood is supposed to be. But either they didn't (lack of research and/or understanding) or they did but preferred to rant as if it did direct affect them... and that's not a basis for discussion or change. Or they were fed bad information from bad actors who WERE affected, and angry, with the proposals and told them stories to get them riled up and make noise.
To me, OGL 1.1 was a heavy-handed mess - try to solve issues that didn't really exist and others that they kind of blew/ignored with OGL 1.0. It was badly managed and showed a lack of understanding of those working through not only OGL 1.0 but through other various licenses, agreements and policies. This move is smarter and should have been done from the start. No, it doesn't really need a misinformed community response as the community doesn't really understand all that it is about (and the initial reaction showed) but it's better than the nothing they did.
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No.
First off, how dare you try to scapegoat Kyle Brink? The man has only been in his position for three months. No, we will not redirect our anger at him. Our ire will remain squarely on you. Even more so every time you try to pull one of these stunts.
Second, you're still using wording that shows you are lying and spinning in order to control the narrative. No, we still don't accept your manipulative false apology. Try again, and this time admit that you were trying to screw everyone over, and don't try to scapegoat someone this time.
Third, a survey, hidden behind anonymity, is not an open conversation. No, we will not respond in a private manner. If you want feedback on the OGL, even though it's very likely we will not accept it regardless of what you do with it, you will post it here, in the forums, for everyone to see and converse about what needs to change. THIS is an open conversation.
We're not letting you have control of the situation. We are the ones who will decide how this plays out. We will continue to be angry at you, and we will not respond to Kyle's scapegoating. This is your screwup, and you need to take responsibility for it or leave.
The boycott of Honor Among Thieves will continue.
We? You write like you are speaking for more people here? using we without specifying who precise you mean is also hiding behind anonymity.
And also very aggressively if I may add. Doesn’t leave room for discussion.
Yeah... Probably too aggressive. I sort of agree with this part though (quoted). This makes sense.
If we are being honest, they don't REALLY want an open conversation. They don't really want a relationship with the fans and players here. They just want to pacify all people spitting venom from this community. A truly open conversation could have happened through their forums here. That's just not what they want.
I regret deeply that maybe it was started by some of WotC actions but now it is just community eating itself. I follow the forums and often enough I do not see a reasonable discussion regarding the changes, only attitude which seems a bit like a blackmail: you give us everything we want or else…
also, personal attacks - a new low.
i was thinking. Not sure if it works but let’s say that WotC actually would engage in a discussion. How can they collect royalties from other corpos without harming the community and independent creators? I was thinking that we can make it more of a brainstorming than attacking every single sentence they publish.
The community is spitting up too much venom. I do agree with that. If this is what prevented the total train-wreck of WotC's new (so-called) "OGL" destroying the franchise, then maybe that's a good thing, but there's also a lot of hatred running loose here. It's hard to participate in the forums anymore. At this point, WotC staff would have to be insane to wade into their own forums here, to engage with the community.
(Admittedly, they seem to have no interest in doing so, but how could you blame them? Who would wade into this poop storm?)
😔 completely agree…
Getting the “why are you so upset baby? Don’t be so mean it was only a love tap.” Vibes from some of responses here.
You folks say venom, I say righteous outrage for steps taken to far. I’m sure next as people point to Claire the “Your an x-ist/phobe” attempts will break out, that’s the usual par the course when corps are in a panic.
Have none of you been paying attention to what's happening behind the scenes? I'm aggressive because the executives are trying to control the narrative through manipulation and spinning, and they want us to forget so they can pull more shady stuff. The only reason they're making concessions right now is because Hasbro needs Honor Among Thieves to succeed so they can keep control over Wizards. If it fails, investors can legally force Hasbro to spin Wizards into its own company.
I suggest you all check out YongYea's coverage on Youtube. He goes in depth with what has been reported based on leaks from inside Wizards with links to sources. Wizards employees are also furious and are anonymously leaking information. The executives are only biding their time, and if we get complacent, they're gonna pull something over on us.
Oh, and make no mistake. The survey is to take the discussion out of the public eye. That in itself is shady as hell for a "public discussion."
Let's not forget that these are the same people who treat us like obstacles to their money, according to an employee, and that Cynthia is the one who said D&D is undermonetized compared to video games. I don't think I have to tell you all that any gamer will say video games are over-monetized to hell, what with microtransactions, loot boxes, the attempts to shove NFTs in the mix. Do we want to see this kind of crap in D&D?
Well, the first step is not to take 25% of their REVENUE. One, 25% is too much. Two, revenue is all the money they earn back from a sale, including what covers their expenses. Even if it is on any dollar made after they make 750k, it should be no more than 15% of profit, not revenue. Unfortunately, 15% was what was given to favored creators with "sweetheart deals."
That said, part of the reason so much was done in the community is because of this lack of royalties. Doing this will hurt profitability from third party publishers, especially if it stays revenue.
Did you even read the new OGL draft? Literally nothing on revenues anymore...
Best change will be to abandon the idea of making a new OGL. There are layers pitching on comments in reddit and sure this is better, but there are still many things that are just bad like the clause that would cripple other VVT for animations.
Either way it is true that Kyle is just a scape goat. The CEOs need to take responsibility.
Trying to silence the outrage is to be expected as is appeasement but I think in the end this will lead to positive change in particular once the Q4 numbers come out which I'm expecting to be atrocious with the Q1 2023 numbers likely being equally bad. Corporations change when their bottom line is affected and only when their bottom line is affected. Any outrage by the community is completely irrelevant, its only actions with wallets that change's a corporation's attitude. Cancelling Beyond Subscriptions, canceling pre-orders and not buying D&D books is the most effective way for this community to get what they want. Sometimes you have to burn the grass in the fall, so that it gross stronger in the spring.
I know some people are concerned about the D&D franchise itself, that, if Wizards of the Coast D&D fails and dies, that this is the end of D&D.. but I can assure you with 100% confidence that Wizards of the Coast have been stewarts of D&D by name only, the true stewarts of the D&D franchise have always been and continue to be its fan base, we don't need corporations to keep the game alive for us. If Wizards of the Coast dies and its mass-market version of D&D dies with it, nothing will have been lost.
Prklts-Repainting the community as the “problem”. I see what you did there. Not enough anger/venom and too much simping imho.
I don't think our D&D community created this problem. I would agree all this started from WotC's seemingly-immediate neglect of the DnDBeyond website, combined with sleazy activity to sneak in an unfair, probably-illegal, and franchise-destroying OGL. My point is that it is unreasonable to for the community to demand WoTC interact with us through these forums, while also maintaining such a high volume of hatred and outrage.
It's a fair point but there is something to be said about doing something that aggravates the entire D&D community than claiming that they are too difficult to interact with because they are aggravated. It sort of reminds me of my kids when they refuse to eat their dinner and then complain about being hungry.
I don't expect Wizards of the Coast to care about or interact with the D&D community, they never have before and I was never under any illusions that interaction and collaboration with the community was ever really part of their plan or strategy. We are as they say "obstacles" to the money they think they are entitled to and there is no sense in talking to us cattle.
I'm just glad to see the Wizards of the Coast D&D community wise up and recognize what a crappy company they are supporting when they buy WotC products.
Yes, the apologia and Stockholm's Syndrome here is disgusting at times.
These people hate their customers. Let's act accordingly.
Man the leadership at WOTC really think we are dumb. Here sign this, and we can change things on a whim. YOU made a idiotic business decision to over pay for DnD beyond so you can turn DnD into a bad video game. YOU are just leeches on a thriving community trying to make up for the fact that Hasbro has been tanking their IP for a long time and your only other option is to milk the popularity of DnD.
Given the attacks from forum members, especially those that have little basis in what's in OGL or how it works, i don't think that the forums are a place for discussion or brainstorming on this topic.
I, from other sources who did oppose the OGL changes, knew what areas weren't covered by OGL... and they mostly tracked to what Kyle wrote. And yet, we had people ranting that OGL will ruin their Twitch feeds and podcasts and webpages. They should have known that OGL didn't deal with that... it's what their world/livelihood is supposed to be. But either they didn't (lack of research and/or understanding) or they did but preferred to rant as if it did direct affect them... and that's not a basis for discussion or change. Or they were fed bad information from bad actors who WERE affected, and angry, with the proposals and told them stories to get them riled up and make noise.
To me, OGL 1.1 was a heavy-handed mess - try to solve issues that didn't really exist and others that they kind of blew/ignored with OGL 1.0. It was badly managed and showed a lack of understanding of those working through not only OGL 1.0 but through other various licenses, agreements and policies. This move is smarter and should have been done from the start. No, it doesn't really need a misinformed community response as the community doesn't really understand all that it is about (and the initial reaction showed) but it's better than the nothing they did.