After the huge fiasco that was WoTC's attempt to destroy free content with the new SRD; once again pulling a V4/pathfinder and therefore creating yet another huge competitor, I think WotC could think of ways to earn the community back. Personally I am thinking of moving either to Pathfinder, or perhaps ORC, and I wouldnt be surprised if a lot of DMs are in the same boat. I have DMed DnD and my own homebrew since version 2. But WotC really tried to sink the boat this time, and its hard to forget.
Suggestion:
WoTC should release physical books just like they did with "Hoard of the dragon queen", and include an online code to redeem an online version of the book. However they should do this with physical copies we can buy at our local stores as well.
Why:
I really wanted to play hoard of the dragon queen. But I love my local game stores and I always support them, so I was waiting until it came to the store to buy it. Only to find out that the online component ONLY comes if purchased from DnD Beyond. Thats a very low business tactic, and after seeing that in my local store, I decided NOT to buy it there either, and instead I purchased my second ever book of pathfinder. Not sure if I will move to it, but I didnt have anything for 2nd ed, so...I will be looking in to it.
Also...I dont know about you people. But I have bought dozens of physical books, and only 1 online one. I dont think this "doubledipping" where WotC thinks they are doubleselling us the books is as prevalent as they think. I am inclined to believe most people buy one or the other. Tho I am certainly curious about personal experiences and opinions in the subject.
How:
Technically its not hard to do at all. Generating unique codes is done every day by lots of companies for lots of services. And including a sealed code with each book would be easy. Or if you "Fear" people will steal the codes from the books in the store, and its TOO HARD to seal them. Just make an online system where you provide your email to the store. The store logs in in to some online system, and they can provide an email address, and select which book codes the site should sent to them. The store can only provide as many codes as books they have purchased. OR the store receives loose cards with each book they purchase, each with a code to scratch, which they can then keep behind the counter and provide to the buyer when he purchases them. "Oh but some stores might try to sell the codes separate, or mark up the price for the extra card"...So what? If I see that I go to another store and done. Or order them online if I think my store wants to rip me off.
Honestly there's dozens of ways to do it, and saying its hard or impossible is naught but corporate excuses.
The not-so-pretty alternative
Have 2 physical versions of the books. One that costs X amount of money and is only physical. And one that is 10% pricier but includes the code. (This would earn WotC a lot less browny points in my book. But would still be better than nothing)
Future:
With WotC's upcoming Virtual tabletop, it would be awesome to have the books easily transferred to it, and if its half as good as Foundry, it would be a good competitor just for having the books easily available. (Although on a sidenote... thats very unlikely to happen with the WoW developer they have at the helm, who has not played a single DnD game in his entire life)
------------
I am fully aware the topic of the dragon queen has been discussed a lot. But this is not so much about that one specifically, but about a possible future direction of DnD along with DnD Beyond.
But this is not so much about that one specifically, but about a possible future direction of DnD along with DnD Beyond.
This has been discussed to death a lot too. You can read this thread on the subject: Books, D&D Beyond and You FAQ. Short answer is that people need to be paid. And if you want both, you can get the physical-digital bundle of certain books straight from Wizards' website, and they are usually $59.95.
Keep in mind that does not include taxes and shipping, and depending on your purchase history on Beyond, which business you buy the physical book from, and where you are physically located, it might be cheaper to buy them separately. Another thing to keep in mind is that Wizards' shipping and handling is not the best. I personally do not mind the longer shipping times, but plenty of people complain about not getting the books sooner, so if you are one of those people, do not buy it from Wizards' website. Handling also is not great, since the packaging they use is not adequate enough to fully protect the books. If you are going to buy a working copy of the book like I do, having a small dent here and there is not a big deal, and you will get dents, bent pages, scratches, etc. eventually anyways through regular use. But if you plan to collect pristine copies of them, then I strongly recommend you buy the physical product separately at a physical store so you can inspect the product to make sure it is in good condition before you buy.
For example, for me, at the time of writing, KFTGV costs $29.51 on Amazon and would have cost me $25.49 on Beyond since I bought the Legendary Bundle. While it would have only cost me $55 instead of $59.95 if I purchase them separately, I have to wait for the physical book to be released and wait for the price to drop.
They are not going to release digital codes in physical products. The only physical product that ever had a digital code in them was the phsyical box of the Essentials Kit, and that was only for short a time, as newer printings do not have the codes anymore. For sealed codes, anything is easy to do if someone is willing to foot the bills for it, but I do not think Wizards and businesses are willing to absorb the cost, and consumers sure as hell do not want to pay for it.
But this is not so much about that one specifically, but about a possible future direction of DnD along with DnD Beyond.
This has been discussed to death a lot too. You can read this thread on the subject: Books, D&D Beyond and You FAQ. Short answer is that people need to be paid. And if you want both, you can get the physical-digital bundle of certain books straight from Wizards' website, and they are usually $59.95.
Keep in mind that does not include taxes and shipping, and depending on your purchase history on Beyond, which business you buy the physical book from, and where you are physically located, it might be cheaper to buy them separately. Another thing to keep in mind is that Wizards' shipping and handling is not the best. I personally do not mind the longer shipping times, but plenty of people complain about not getting the books sooner, so if you are one of those people, do not buy it from Wizards' website. Handling also is not great, since the packaging they use is not adequate enough to fully protect the books. If you are going to buy a working copy of the book like I do, having a small dent here and there is not a big deal, and you will get dents, bent pages, scratches, etc. eventually anyways through regular use. But if you plan to collect pristine copies of them, then I strongly recommend you buy the physical product separately at a physical store so you can inspect the product to make sure it is in good condition before you buy.
For example, for me, at the time of writing, KFTGV costs $29.51 on Amazon and would have cost me $25.49 on Beyond since I bought the Legendary Bundle. While it would have only cost me $55 instead of $59.95 if I purchase them separately, I have to wait for the physical book to be released and wait for the price to drop.
They are not going to release digital codes in physical products. The only physical product that ever had a digital code in them was the phsyical box of the Essentials Kit, and that was only for short a time, as newer printings do not have the codes anymore. For sealed codes, anything is easy to do if someone is willing to foot the bills for it, but I do not think Wizards and businesses are willing to absorb the cost, and consumers sure as hell do not want to pay for it.
I am not sure what kind of response you expect to such a condescending statement. But here I will try... I am aware people who work need to be paid. Thanks. I assure you it was not necessary to mention that. Its a somewhat well known fact in society, and if thats the biggest argument against this idea...Its a weak one.
You believe they cannot possibly bundle both for the same price. I believe they can, and I also suggested an idea where they charge extra for the virtual version, albeit not full price.
"They are never going to do THIS because they have never done it in the past"...Uh...So what that they havent done it in the past? They are even TRYING it. At some point I also argued against people who were saying "PFttsss! What are you thinking! DnD Will NEVER sell its books online! Their WHOLE thing is paper books". And here we are some years later in the website that does it. Businesses and markets evolve you know?
Also, if they could do it with the dragon queen (As a test or whatever) its beyond monopolistic that they ONLY do it in online orders...And Why? Because they make more money there of course if there's no middle man with the book/geek store.
I do however somewhat agree WoTC will not foot the bill for anything that does not benefit them. They are after all just a business, currently in the hands of people who dont care about anything other than their revenue. It is a bit sad, but thats where all capitalism ends. (Hence why it MIGHT be better to migrate to other systems).
Unlike you however, I believe that there are enough reasons for WoTC to foot the bill. I believe this kind of change would be economically beneficial for them in the mid and long term....And perhaps even in the short term. Its possible their current sales would increase overall. Again, I do not know how many players buy both editions. From my personal experience with friends, and other DMs.. none does it consistently. At most they bought 1 or a couple twice (This is a few dozen people across various tables and venues I frequent). But of course that is a very small sample of empirical evidence. Which is not worth much. It would for sure earn some of the player's trust back, and might even encourage people who havent bought books, or who didnt buy many to increase their spending, since they are getting more bang for their buck.
I am not sure what kind of response you expect to such a condescending statement. But here I will try... I am aware people who work need to be paid. Thanks. I assure you it was not necessary to mention that. Its a somewhat well known fact in society, and if thats the biggest argument against this idea...Its a weak one.
You believe they cannot possibly bundle both for the same price. I believe they can, and I also suggested an idea where they charge extra for the virtual version, albeit not full price.
I was not being condescending. I am just explaining why people should not expect more without paying more. People who do not work in accounting and finance often underestimate the cost of doing business.
Books cost $49.95. For $10 more, you can get the digital version in a bundle, but that is only for some books and you can only get it from Wizards' website. It is not 10% more like you suggested, but it is 20% more, which is still fair in my opinion.
"They are never going to do THIS because they have never done it in the past"...Uh...So what that they havent done it in the past? They are even TRYING it. At some point I also argued against people who were saying "PFttsss! What are you thinking! DnD Will NEVER sell its books online! Their WHOLE thing is paper books". And here we are some years later in the website that does it. Businesses and markets evolve you know?
They tried putting digital codes in physical products in the past, although it was in a box rather than a book, but for some reason or another, they stopped doing so. Since they chose to stop rather than expand offering digital codes to more physical products, I do not think it is realistic to assume they will reverse that decision any time soon. I agree it sucks, but there are still old printings of the Essentials Kit out there that comes with a digital code, you just have to hunt around for it.
Also, if they could do it with the dragon queen (As a test or whatever) its beyond monopolistic that they ONLY do it in online orders...And Why? Because they make more money there of course if there's no middle man with the book/geek store.
I do however somewhat agree WoTC will not foot the bill for anything that does not benefit them. They are after all just a business, currently in the hands of people who dont care about anything other than their revenue. It is a bit sad, but thats where all capitalism ends. (Hence why it MIGHT be better to migrate to other systems).
If they allow middlemen to sell the physical-digital bundle, costs might be higher.
D&D can already be played for free, and UA is available for the playtest versions of the published mechanics. If that is not enough for you, then yes, you may want to switch systems. Pathfinder and Starfinder got digital mechanics to reference for free, and I believe they got digital character sheets for free too, although I think they are made and maintained by third parties, not Paizo themselves.
Unlike you however, I believe that there are enough reasons for WoTC to foot the bill. I believe this kind of change would be economically beneficial for them in the mid and long term....And perhaps even in the short term. Its possible their current sales would increase overall. Again, I do not know how many players buy both editions. From my personal experience with friends, and other DMs.. none does it consistently. At most they bought 1 or a couple twice (This is a few dozen people across various tables and venues I frequent). But of course that is a very small sample of empirical evidence. Which is not worth much. It would for sure earn some of the player's trust back, and might even encourage people who havent bought books, or who didnt buy many to increase their spending, since they are getting more bang for their buck.
Not every customer is worth pursuing. You do not need to buy anything from Wizards to play the game. If you really feel that strongly against Wizards, rather than asking for low prices, it is better to just not give them any money at all.
If price is a concern for some players, D&D can already be played for free using the BR/SRD and EEPC. UA is available for free, and contains most of the published mechanics. For GMs who want to run adventures, Beyond got quite a few short adventures for free. And there is endless third party homebrew online available for free.
They tried putting digital codes in physical products in the past, although it was in a box rather than a book, but for some reason or another, they stopped doing so. Since they chose to stop rather than expand offering digital codes to more physical products, I do not think it is realistic to assume they will reverse that decision any time soon.
If they did a test with the dragon queen, it is a certain indication they are trying something of the sort. They announced it themselves. So rather than doubting it we should be supporting, encouraging and proposing it.
Not every customer is worth pursuing. You do not need to buy anything from Wizards to play the game. If you really feel that strongly against Wizards, rather than asking for low prices, it is better to just not give them any money at all.
If price is a concern for some players, D&D can already be played for free using the BR/SRD and EEPC. UA is available for free, and contains most of the published mechanics. For GMs who want to run adventures, Beyond got quite a few short adventures for free. And there is endless third party homebrew online available for free.
I dislike wizards, but I like the game. Its all about balance. Every perk they add is more reasons to get over the dislike of the corporate overlord, and I am trying to suggest how they can become more appealing to the community. Rather than go and say "Oh they will never change, Ill just swallow all their trash because I dont believe they will change"
Competition is a reason businesses give more for less. And right now DND has a lot of competition.
Pathfinder's core rulebook costs almost the same as the player's handbook of DND. And is twice the length.
D&D got lots of competition, but I do not think the competition is capable of challenging D&D. Paizo is the most capable out of all the competition, but they lack the resources to draw in new players (they do not advertise their game very well in my opinion) and build and maintain infrastructure that provides convenience (as far as I know, Paizo's digital references and character sheets are built and maintained by fans/third-parties).
As for the pricing, yeah, it sucks that the PHB is not as long, but we are also paying for the brand name, ease of play, ease of finding a game, etc.
If they did a test with the dragon queen, it is a certain indication they are trying something of the sort. They announced it themselves. So rather than doubting it we should be supporting, encouraging and proposing it.
I have not heard Wizards announcing nor testing anything with HOTDQ. As far as I know, Wizards was just combining HOTDQ and TROT into TOD (which they have done a few years ago), recently released a new version of TOD with more errata in it, and started offering TOD as physical-digital bundle only at their website.
If you can provide a source of where you heard Wizards is putting digital codes into a physical book like HOTDQ, I would like to read about it. I tried looking through Google, but nothing came up.
I dislike wizards, but I like the game. Its all about balance. Every perk they add is more reasons to get over the dislike of the corporate overlord, and I am trying to suggest how they can become more appealing to the community. Rather than go and say "Oh they will never change, Ill just swallow all their trash because I dont believe they will change"
They probably will not offer those perks for free. If people want to buy a physical-digital bundle from a physical store, your best bet is to ask your LGS and have them pressure Wizards, since they are the ones who buy stuff at volume and might have better contacts with the company.
Background:
After the huge fiasco that was WoTC's attempt to destroy free content with the new SRD; once again pulling a V4/pathfinder and therefore creating yet another huge competitor, I think WotC could think of ways to earn the community back. Personally I am thinking of moving either to Pathfinder, or perhaps ORC, and I wouldnt be surprised if a lot of DMs are in the same boat. I have DMed DnD and my own homebrew since version 2. But WotC really tried to sink the boat this time, and its hard to forget.
Suggestion:
WoTC should release physical books just like they did with "Hoard of the dragon queen", and include an online code to redeem an online version of the book. However they should do this with physical copies we can buy at our local stores as well.
Why:
I really wanted to play hoard of the dragon queen. But I love my local game stores and I always support them, so I was waiting until it came to the store to buy it. Only to find out that the online component ONLY comes if purchased from DnD Beyond. Thats a very low business tactic, and after seeing that in my local store, I decided NOT to buy it there either, and instead I purchased my second ever book of pathfinder. Not sure if I will move to it, but I didnt have anything for 2nd ed, so...I will be looking in to it.
Also...I dont know about you people. But I have bought dozens of physical books, and only 1 online one. I dont think this "doubledipping" where WotC thinks they are doubleselling us the books is as prevalent as they think. I am inclined to believe most people buy one or the other. Tho I am certainly curious about personal experiences and opinions in the subject.
How:
Technically its not hard to do at all. Generating unique codes is done every day by lots of companies for lots of services. And including a sealed code with each book would be easy. Or if you "Fear" people will steal the codes from the books in the store, and its TOO HARD to seal them. Just make an online system where you provide your email to the store. The store logs in in to some online system, and they can provide an email address, and select which book codes the site should sent to them. The store can only provide as many codes as books they have purchased. OR the store receives loose cards with each book they purchase, each with a code to scratch, which they can then keep behind the counter and provide to the buyer when he purchases them. "Oh but some stores might try to sell the codes separate, or mark up the price for the extra card"...So what? If I see that I go to another store and done. Or order them online if I think my store wants to rip me off.
Honestly there's dozens of ways to do it, and saying its hard or impossible is naught but corporate excuses.
The not-so-pretty alternative
Have 2 physical versions of the books. One that costs X amount of money and is only physical. And one that is 10% pricier but includes the code. (This would earn WotC a lot less browny points in my book. But would still be better than nothing)
Future:
With WotC's upcoming Virtual tabletop, it would be awesome to have the books easily transferred to it, and if its half as good as Foundry, it would be a good competitor just for having the books easily available. (Although on a sidenote... thats very unlikely to happen with the WoW developer they have at the helm, who has not played a single DnD game in his entire life)
------------
I am fully aware the topic of the dragon queen has been discussed a lot. But this is not so much about that one specifically, but about a possible future direction of DnD along with DnD Beyond.
This has been discussed to death a lot too. You can read this thread on the subject: Books, D&D Beyond and You FAQ. Short answer is that people need to be paid. And if you want both, you can get the physical-digital bundle of certain books straight from Wizards' website, and they are usually $59.95.
Keep in mind that does not include taxes and shipping, and depending on your purchase history on Beyond, which business you buy the physical book from, and where you are physically located, it might be cheaper to buy them separately. Another thing to keep in mind is that Wizards' shipping and handling is not the best. I personally do not mind the longer shipping times, but plenty of people complain about not getting the books sooner, so if you are one of those people, do not buy it from Wizards' website. Handling also is not great, since the packaging they use is not adequate enough to fully protect the books. If you are going to buy a working copy of the book like I do, having a small dent here and there is not a big deal, and you will get dents, bent pages, scratches, etc. eventually anyways through regular use. But if you plan to collect pristine copies of them, then I strongly recommend you buy the physical product separately at a physical store so you can inspect the product to make sure it is in good condition before you buy.
For example, for me, at the time of writing, KFTGV costs $29.51 on Amazon and would have cost me $25.49 on Beyond since I bought the Legendary Bundle. While it would have only cost me $55 instead of $59.95 if I purchase them separately, I have to wait for the physical book to be released and wait for the price to drop.
They are not going to release digital codes in physical products. The only physical product that ever had a digital code in them was the phsyical box of the Essentials Kit, and that was only for short a time, as newer printings do not have the codes anymore. For sealed codes, anything is easy to do if someone is willing to foot the bills for it, but I do not think Wizards and businesses are willing to absorb the cost, and consumers sure as hell do not want to pay for it.
Check Licenses and Resync Entitlements: < https://www.dndbeyond.com/account/licenses >
Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >
I am not sure what kind of response you expect to such a condescending statement. But here I will try... I am aware people who work need to be paid. Thanks. I assure you it was not necessary to mention that. Its a somewhat well known fact in society, and if thats the biggest argument against this idea...Its a weak one.
You believe they cannot possibly bundle both for the same price. I believe they can, and I also suggested an idea where they charge extra for the virtual version, albeit not full price.
"They are never going to do THIS because they have never done it in the past"...Uh...So what that they havent done it in the past? They are even TRYING it. At some point I also argued against people who were saying "PFttsss! What are you thinking! DnD Will NEVER sell its books online! Their WHOLE thing is paper books". And here we are some years later in the website that does it. Businesses and markets evolve you know?
Also, if they could do it with the dragon queen (As a test or whatever) its beyond monopolistic that they ONLY do it in online orders...And Why? Because they make more money there of course if there's no middle man with the book/geek store.
I do however somewhat agree WoTC will not foot the bill for anything that does not benefit them. They are after all just a business, currently in the hands of people who dont care about anything other than their revenue. It is a bit sad, but thats where all capitalism ends. (Hence why it MIGHT be better to migrate to other systems).
Unlike you however, I believe that there are enough reasons for WoTC to foot the bill. I believe this kind of change would be economically beneficial for them in the mid and long term....And perhaps even in the short term. Its possible their current sales would increase overall. Again, I do not know how many players buy both editions. From my personal experience with friends, and other DMs.. none does it consistently. At most they bought 1 or a couple twice (This is a few dozen people across various tables and venues I frequent). But of course that is a very small sample of empirical evidence. Which is not worth much.
It would for sure earn some of the player's trust back, and might even encourage people who havent bought books, or who didnt buy many to increase their spending, since they are getting more bang for their buck.
I was not being condescending. I am just explaining why people should not expect more without paying more. People who do not work in accounting and finance often underestimate the cost of doing business.
Books cost $49.95. For $10 more, you can get the digital version in a bundle, but that is only for some books and you can only get it from Wizards' website. It is not 10% more like you suggested, but it is 20% more, which is still fair in my opinion.
They tried putting digital codes in physical products in the past, although it was in a box rather than a book, but for some reason or another, they stopped doing so. Since they chose to stop rather than expand offering digital codes to more physical products, I do not think it is realistic to assume they will reverse that decision any time soon. I agree it sucks, but there are still old printings of the Essentials Kit out there that comes with a digital code, you just have to hunt around for it.
If they allow middlemen to sell the physical-digital bundle, costs might be higher.
D&D can already be played for free, and UA is available for the playtest versions of the published mechanics. If that is not enough for you, then yes, you may want to switch systems. Pathfinder and Starfinder got digital mechanics to reference for free, and I believe they got digital character sheets for free too, although I think they are made and maintained by third parties, not Paizo themselves.
Not every customer is worth pursuing. You do not need to buy anything from Wizards to play the game. If you really feel that strongly against Wizards, rather than asking for low prices, it is better to just not give them any money at all.
If price is a concern for some players, D&D can already be played for free using the BR/SRD and EEPC. UA is available for free, and contains most of the published mechanics. For GMs who want to run adventures, Beyond got quite a few short adventures for free. And there is endless third party homebrew online available for free.
Check Licenses and Resync Entitlements: < https://www.dndbeyond.com/account/licenses >
Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >
Competition is a reason businesses give more for less. And right now DND has a lot of competition.
Pathfinder's core rulebook costs almost the same as the player's handbook of DND. And is twice the length.
If they did a test with the dragon queen, it is a certain indication they are trying something of the sort. They announced it themselves. So rather than doubting it we should be supporting, encouraging and proposing it.
I dislike wizards, but I like the game. Its all about balance. Every perk they add is more reasons to get over the dislike of the corporate overlord, and I am trying to suggest how they can become more appealing to the community. Rather than go and say "Oh they will never change, Ill just swallow all their trash because I dont believe they will change"
D&D got lots of competition, but I do not think the competition is capable of challenging D&D. Paizo is the most capable out of all the competition, but they lack the resources to draw in new players (they do not advertise their game very well in my opinion) and build and maintain infrastructure that provides convenience (as far as I know, Paizo's digital references and character sheets are built and maintained by fans/third-parties).
As for the pricing, yeah, it sucks that the PHB is not as long, but we are also paying for the brand name, ease of play, ease of finding a game, etc.
I have not heard Wizards announcing nor testing anything with HOTDQ. As far as I know, Wizards was just combining HOTDQ and TROT into TOD (which they have done a few years ago), recently released a new version of TOD with more errata in it, and started offering TOD as physical-digital bundle only at their website.
If you can provide a source of where you heard Wizards is putting digital codes into a physical book like HOTDQ, I would like to read about it. I tried looking through Google, but nothing came up.
They probably will not offer those perks for free. If people want to buy a physical-digital bundle from a physical store, your best bet is to ask your LGS and have them pressure Wizards, since they are the ones who buy stuff at volume and might have better contacts with the company.
Check Licenses and Resync Entitlements: < https://www.dndbeyond.com/account/licenses >
Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >