From 2024 PHB: Tool Proficiency: If you have proficiency with a tool, add your Proficiency Bonus to any ability check you make that uses the tool. If you have proficiency in a skill that’s used with that check, you have advantage on that check too.
For a DEX(sleight of hand)ThievesTools check, if I have expertise in sleight of hand, and proficiency in ThievesTools, the above wording seems to indicate that I roll
1d20 + DEXMOD +PB(for tool proficiency) @ advantage(for sleight of hand proficiency)
The wording appears to indicate that all tool checks ignore expertise in the related skill
From 2024 PHB: Tool Proficiency: If you have proficiency with a tool, add your Proficiency Bonus to any ability check you make that uses the tool. If you have proficiency in a skill that’s used with that check, you have advantage on that check too.
For a DEX(sleight of hand)ThievesTools check, if I have expertise in sleight of hand, and proficiency in ThievesTools, the above wording seems to indicate that I roll
1d20 + DEXMOD +PB(for tool proficiency) @ advantage(for sleight of hand proficiency)
The wording appears to indicate that all tool checks ignore expertise in the related skill
2024 is pulling away from tool expertise overall, as evidenced by redone features not having them at all (including 2024 Artificer).
From 2024 PHB: Tool Proficiency: If you have proficiency with a tool, add your Proficiency Bonus to any ability check you make that uses the tool. If you have proficiency in a skill that’s used with that check, you have advantage on that check too.
For a DEX(sleight of hand)ThievesTools check, if I have expertise in sleight of hand, and proficiency in ThievesTools, the above wording seems to indicate that I roll
1d20 + DEXMOD +PB(for tool proficiency) @ advantage(for sleight of hand proficiency)
The wording appears to indicate that all tool checks ignore expertise in the related skill
2024 is pulling away from tool expertise overall, as evidenced by redone features not having them at all (including 2024 Artificer).
Right, but the issue is: if you have expertise in the skill, and proficiency with the tool, a strict reading of that rule suggests that you only add the proficiency bonus once (for the tool) and then get advantage for also having proficiency in the skill. Read that way, expertise in a skill provides no benefit over proficiency in that skill if a tool you're also proficient with is being used, which seems unfair.
Personally, I'd be inclined to let you add the doubled profiency bonus and have advantage, just because it seems a little backwards otherwise.
You know, giving this some more thought, I think it's resolved by the 2024 definition of Expertise:
Expertise is a feature that enhances your use of a skill proficiency. When you make an ability check with a skill proficiency in which you have Expertise, your Proficiency Bonus is doubled for that check unless the bonus is doubled by another feature.
Since the check in question is an ability check with a skill in which you have Expertise, your proficiency bonus is doubled. When the tool proficiency says "add your proficiency bonus", you're adding the doubled proficiency bonus.
From 2024 PHB: Tool Proficiency: If you have proficiency with a tool, add your Proficiency Bonus to any ability check you make that uses the tool. If you have proficiency in a skill that’s used with that check, you have advantage on that check too.
For a DEX(sleight of hand)ThievesTools check, if I have expertise in sleight of hand, and proficiency in ThievesTools, the above wording seems to indicate that I roll
1d20 + DEXMOD +PB(for tool proficiency) @ advantage(for sleight of hand proficiency)
The wording appears to indicate that all tool checks ignore expertise in the related skill
2024 is pulling away from tool expertise overall, as evidenced by redone features not having them at all (including 2024 Artificer).
Right, but the issue is: if you have expertise in the skill, and proficiency with the tool, a strict reading of that rule suggests that you only add the proficiency bonus once (for the tool) and then get advantage for also having proficiency in the skill. Read that way, expertise in a skill provides no benefit over proficiency in that skill if a tool you're also proficient with is being used, which seems unfair.
Personally, I'd be inclined to let you add the doubled profiency bonus and have advantage, just because it seems a little backwards otherwise.
pronouns: he/she/they
You know, giving this some more thought, I think it's resolved by the 2024 definition of Expertise:
Since the check in question is an ability check with a skill in which you have Expertise, your proficiency bonus is doubled. When the tool proficiency says "add your proficiency bonus", you're adding the doubled proficiency bonus.
pronouns: he/she/they
Ah. expertise applies to any ability check, and a tool check is an ability check. I would not have caught that. thanks