"Wish is the mightiest spell a mortal creature can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter the very foundations of reality in accord with your desires."
This is from the spell page on this site.
Would a mortal caster be able to use the wish spell to undo the magic of a god?
Say a god curses a mortal soul to an eternal prison, or just outright destroys it, could the wish spell bring back that soul?
I feel this brings up questions that only a DM can answer, each to their own and all that, so I'd like some opinions and theories if possible.
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I'd argue that Wish can definitely combat a god's magic, to an extent. As always with that spell though, you really want to emphasize that unless the party is very careful with wording, Wish can cause untold numbers of problems when cast
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"Wish is the mightiest spell a mortal creature can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter the very foundations of reality in accord with your desires."
This is from the spell page on this site.
Would a mortal caster be able to use the wish spell to undo the magic of a god?
Say a god curses a mortal soul to an eternal prison, or just outright destroys it, could the wish spell bring back that soul?
I feel this brings up questions that only a DM can answer, each to their own and all that, so I'd like some opinions and theories if possible.
I think it depends on where the wish came from. If the wish came from a being lesser than a god, then I don't think such a wish could undo a god's magic. However, if a player casts wish all on their own, from their own class spell list, then I would rule that it works.
Edit: Pact magic is magic coming from another being.
For me, wish is an NPC spell. It's a plot point, not a player ability. I also think players that can get it feel pressured to take it just because it's the best spell in the game, and without it they can instead choose a spell that fits their theme. I might make an exception for a genie warlock, but not much else.
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homebrew (Mostly Outdated):Magic Items,Monsters,Spells,Subclasses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
This is a question entirely up to the DM. Anything beyond the duplication of an 8th level or lower spell is at the whim of the DM to adjudicate. Unless you can foil the god-magic with an 8th level or lower spell (somehow), then the DM gets to decide if it works. Possible options dictated by the spell
2) the wish could work, with little to no consequences (other than the stress described)
3) the wish could work, with unforseen consequences and the stress described
Personally, I'd allow a player-cast wish (by that I means cast using a spell-slot, not via magic item or NPC creature) to possibly counter-act certain god-magic...with the twist that gods aren't limited by things like spell-slots, and their next move might be to 1) redo the magic, 2) smite the offending mortal (most likely for me), or 3) both.
I suppose it depends on your definition of 'god'. D&D players like to say things like "20th-level characters are literally gods! They can do anything they want, it's impossible to challenge them, they can kill anything!", and I tend to just sit here, shake my head, and sigh. If your definition of 'god' is "something with a bunch of hit points, some spells, a few divine-flavored abilities, and a cool picture I found on Pinterest", then yes - Wish can combat gods because the term 'god' has no real weight or meaning in your game.
In any game I run? If a god wants you dead, they don't have to cast spells or attack you or reduce your HP to zero to do it. They look at you with a frown, and you fall over dead. Your body may or may not dissolve into dust and disappear, depending on whether the god is trying to teach your party a lesson about baring steel in its presence and is willing to let them revive you when it's done with them, or simply wants you gone. If you use Wish to try and undo a god's divine providence within that god's domain/portfolio? If the god is paying attention and notices your attempt, lolno. If they're not, you may be able to flip a reversible action - but the god can unflip that action as easily as breathing, and they will likely be cross with you. Gods do not have stat blocks, they do not have ability scores, they do not have spells. If you are confronting a god directly, your only hope is that your words can sway them to do as you wish of their own volition, because absolutely nothing a mortal can do with spell or steel will coerce a god.
If you are confronting a god's avatar on the Prime Material, because most deities are very limited in how they can affect the Prime Material? That's a different story, but that's also not a god. An avatar's ability to wield divine power is inherently and fundamentally limited; a powerful mortal spellcaster may be able to contend that with Wish, but I would not be surprised if the avatar 'won', either.
The very definition of a 'God' is "a being whose power and awareness transcends the limits of mortal possibility." They are entities granted direct control over facets of existence itself. GURPS treated this properly with their "Cosmic" ability modifier. A Cosmic power always trumps a non-Cosmic one. The lesser power cannot affect anything the Cosmic power has done, it cannot guard against Cosmic power, and should the two abilities ever clash the Cosmic power automatically wins. True divinity is on a level beyond what individual mortals can achieve no matter their class levels.
If that isn't the case, then your gods aren't really gods. Simply mortals with a whole lotta Epic Level Boons.
I agree with Yurei. Gods in my campaigns are capable of things far beyond anything a mortal PC can accomplish. That's one of the perks of being a god. I don't even really think of things a god does as magic. They want something to happen, and it does. They don't need magic to do it. Heck, it might not be a stretch to say gods created magic. (Still, I'd love a new Deities & Demigods like we had in 1e, that thing was so cool.)
All of that, of course, is going to be campaign dependent, as the OP says. If the DM wants you to be able to kill a god and take their powers, then you can.
In my game, the Wish spell cannot be cast by mortals anyway, so it wouldn't matter. Gods can grant a Wish, which potentially other gods might be able to undo, but there are some rules about this. I can't say anymore since it may spoil things for my players.
In terms of the general way of running things (in other worlds where I might allow Wish to be cast), I mostly agree with Yurei. If something is reversible, you might be able to Wish away something a deity did, but... if that deity notices, they can not only flip it back, but worse, you now have probably made them angry. I don't think you want someone like Aphrodite or Loki personally angry with you.
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Like Yurei said, it really comes down to how God-like (with a capital "g") the god is. There is a feature fairly similar to Wish that Clerics get access to, Divine Intervention (which automatically succeeds at level 20). If a god can help its clerics in pretty much any way they want as long as they care about them/are paying attention at the moment that the Cleric decides to use Divine Intervention, the god can literally do a Deus Ex Machina to save their mortal butts. Not only is this feature similar to Wish, but it is less limited than it (once you get to be able to use it reliably, that is).
So, if a god has the power to do that for their cleric, more likely than not, they can undo the pitiful Wish spell of a puny Arcana Cleric/Sorcerer/Genie Warlock/Wizard.
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I agree that it really depends on how godly your deities are, and how powerful you allow Wish to be within your campaigns.
In one of the campaigns I played in, we did stop an insane-driven deity with the Wish spell, but not in the typical manner of just wishing for the god to be killed (since straight up killing a god directly with wish was not possible). Instead, we wished for all knowledge of the god to be wiped from the memories of all beings saved for the one who cast the wish spell. Since we followed the lore of worship being the source of a deity's power, we effectively reduced the deity to near nothingness as he lost his worshippers to amnesia.
Ironically enough the caveat of the wisher remembering the Deity.....ultimately led to the deity's return, but still wish did affect the god.
Anyways, yeah. It really depends on how you go about defining your gods and how you go about defining the limits of wish.
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Say a god curses a mortal soul to an eternal prison, or just outright destroys it, could the wish spell bring back that soul?
Say this works, what do you think happens next? Because to me this sounds primarily like a god doing something, a mortal wishing it away, the god doing it again, and if the mortal wishes it away again there's going to be a very pissed god doing it again and dealing with the mortal in abject fashion.
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Here's how I see it: A god's power comes from its worshippers. That power is finite and it replenished from mortal prayer. A god has access access to higher level spells than mortals, but the higher level the spell, the more power it takes from the god. That gives a god a reason to use a lower level spell: to conserve power. Wish is able to counter anything equal or less than a level 9 spell, whether cast by a mortal or a god. If a god uses a 10th level spell or higher to affect the world, wish cannot change it.
Well, it would be a 9th level spell, but I think I disagree a bit on the power levels of Gods. Imagine a deity with a huge following, with thousands of clerics running around who are getting their spells from the God every day, who can manifest avatars on the Prime Material Plane that are only part of the God's power, but are incredibly powerful on their own, who run their domains, all at once. I think even 9th level spells for them barely tap the surface of what they can do every day.
In theory, it could. Consider that The Weave is one of the main sources of arcane spellcasting in Toril - arcane casters tap into The Weave in order to cast their spells - and The Weave is directly linked to Mystryl - later Mystra, then Midnight under the guise of Mystra, now Mystra again afaik - who is a greater deity.
If I were the DM, I would be happy to let my player succeed. However, there would be consequences depending on which god he wants to "undo" and for which reason. There are so many exiciting ways this could develop :-)
In theory, it could. Consider that The Weave is one of the main sources of arcane spellcasting in Toril - arcane casters tap into The Weave in order to cast their spells - and The Weave is directly linked to Mystryl - later Mystra, then Midnight under the guise of Mystra, now Mystra again afaik - who is a greater deity.
So it really all depends on the DM.
Yes, it depends very strongly on the DM. There is no Weave and no "Mystra" in my omniverse. Magic in my campaign is cast by tapping into one of the non-mortal planes, opening a tiny tear between the mortal plane and the other plane, and bringing in some of that material to the mortal world. (Simple example: Fireball results from a tear between the mortal world and the elemental plane of fire.)
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
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In theory, it could. Consider that The Weave is one of the main sources of arcane spellcasting in Toril - arcane casters tap into The Weave in order to cast their spells - and The Weave is directly linked to Mystryl - later Mystra, then Midnight under the guise of Mystra, now Mystra again afaik - who is a greater deity.
So it really all depends on the DM.
Yes, it depends very strongly on the DM. There is no Weave and no "Mystra" in my omniverse. Magic in my campaign is cast by tapping into one of the non-mortal planes, opening a tiny tear between the mortal plane and the other plane, and bringing in some of that material to the mortal world. (Simple example: Fireball results from a tear between the mortal world and the elemental plane of fire.)
Oh yeah, setting is also very important, to be sure.
I tend to assume that generalized question such as the OP are intended for the Forgotten Realms setting of Toril. Even on Abeir, which is also in the Forgotten Realms, it's entirely plausible for Wish to not be powerful enough to combat deific magics due to the way arcane magics work in that world setting.
In Forgotten Realms, I would say wish could affect God magic unless said God would actively fight against it in sort of counterspell/disable way. In which case God most likely would prevail as him/her being "way more powerfull caster". And here is why I think it would work that way:
The weave is just user Interface that Mystryl/Midnight/Mystra made so everyone would get acces to "the magic" (called as raw magic). Mystra maintains and controls that UI and can kick users from using it, including other Gods (but Gods can access raw magic directly anyway), but she dont control "raw magic" itself (AFAIK no one does). So in short, any magic, be it made by mortal or god is fundamentally from same source called as "raw magic". Most mortals just have to use the Weave or Shadow weave to access it (Sorcerers dont need those and are in essense puny gods themselfs as they can tap directly to raw magic). So I would say wish could theorethically affect gods magics.
"Wish is the mightiest spell a mortal creature can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter the very foundations of reality in accord with your desires."
This is from the spell page on this site.
Would a mortal caster be able to use the wish spell to undo the magic of a god?
Say a god curses a mortal soul to an eternal prison, or just outright destroys it, could the wish spell bring back that soul?
I feel this brings up questions that only a DM can answer, each to their own and all that, so I'd like some opinions and theories if possible.
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...I don't let my players take wish.
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
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If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
Well that's a bit boring then.
I'd argue that Wish can definitely combat a god's magic, to an extent. As always with that spell though, you really want to emphasize that unless the party is very careful with wording, Wish can cause untold numbers of problems when cast
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
I think it depends on where the wish came from. If the wish came from a being lesser than a god, then I don't think such a wish could undo a god's magic. However, if a player casts wish all on their own, from their own class spell list, then I would rule that it works.
Edit: Pact magic is magic coming from another being.
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For me, wish is an NPC spell. It's a plot point, not a player ability. I also think players that can get it feel pressured to take it just because it's the best spell in the game, and without it they can instead choose a spell that fits their theme. I might make an exception for a genie warlock, but not much else.
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If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
This is a question entirely up to the DM. Anything beyond the duplication of an 8th level or lower spell is at the whim of the DM to adjudicate. Unless you can foil the god-magic with an 8th level or lower spell (somehow), then the DM gets to decide if it works. Possible options dictated by the spell
1) the wish could outright fail
2) the wish could work, with little to no consequences (other than the stress described)
3) the wish could work, with unforseen consequences and the stress described
Personally, I'd allow a player-cast wish (by that I means cast using a spell-slot, not via magic item or NPC creature) to possibly counter-act certain god-magic...with the twist that gods aren't limited by things like spell-slots, and their next move might be to 1) redo the magic, 2) smite the offending mortal (most likely for me), or 3) both.
I suppose it depends on your definition of 'god'. D&D players like to say things like "20th-level characters are literally gods! They can do anything they want, it's impossible to challenge them, they can kill anything!", and I tend to just sit here, shake my head, and sigh. If your definition of 'god' is "something with a bunch of hit points, some spells, a few divine-flavored abilities, and a cool picture I found on Pinterest", then yes - Wish can combat gods because the term 'god' has no real weight or meaning in your game.
In any game I run? If a god wants you dead, they don't have to cast spells or attack you or reduce your HP to zero to do it. They look at you with a frown, and you fall over dead. Your body may or may not dissolve into dust and disappear, depending on whether the god is trying to teach your party a lesson about baring steel in its presence and is willing to let them revive you when it's done with them, or simply wants you gone. If you use Wish to try and undo a god's divine providence within that god's domain/portfolio? If the god is paying attention and notices your attempt, lolno. If they're not, you may be able to flip a reversible action - but the god can unflip that action as easily as breathing, and they will likely be cross with you. Gods do not have stat blocks, they do not have ability scores, they do not have spells. If you are confronting a god directly, your only hope is that your words can sway them to do as you wish of their own volition, because absolutely nothing a mortal can do with spell or steel will coerce a god.
If you are confronting a god's avatar on the Prime Material, because most deities are very limited in how they can affect the Prime Material? That's a different story, but that's also not a god. An avatar's ability to wield divine power is inherently and fundamentally limited; a powerful mortal spellcaster may be able to contend that with Wish, but I would not be surprised if the avatar 'won', either.
The very definition of a 'God' is "a being whose power and awareness transcends the limits of mortal possibility." They are entities granted direct control over facets of existence itself. GURPS treated this properly with their "Cosmic" ability modifier. A Cosmic power always trumps a non-Cosmic one. The lesser power cannot affect anything the Cosmic power has done, it cannot guard against Cosmic power, and should the two abilities ever clash the Cosmic power automatically wins. True divinity is on a level beyond what individual mortals can achieve no matter their class levels.
If that isn't the case, then your gods aren't really gods. Simply mortals with a whole lotta Epic Level Boons.
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I agree with Yurei. Gods in my campaigns are capable of things far beyond anything a mortal PC can accomplish. That's one of the perks of being a god. I don't even really think of things a god does as magic. They want something to happen, and it does. They don't need magic to do it. Heck, it might not be a stretch to say gods created magic. (Still, I'd love a new Deities & Demigods like we had in 1e, that thing was so cool.)
All of that, of course, is going to be campaign dependent, as the OP says. If the DM wants you to be able to kill a god and take their powers, then you can.
In my game, the Wish spell cannot be cast by mortals anyway, so it wouldn't matter. Gods can grant a Wish, which potentially other gods might be able to undo, but there are some rules about this. I can't say anymore since it may spoil things for my players.
In terms of the general way of running things (in other worlds where I might allow Wish to be cast), I mostly agree with Yurei. If something is reversible, you might be able to Wish away something a deity did, but... if that deity notices, they can not only flip it back, but worse, you now have probably made them angry. I don't think you want someone like Aphrodite or Loki personally angry with you.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Like Yurei said, it really comes down to how God-like (with a capital "g") the god is. There is a feature fairly similar to Wish that Clerics get access to, Divine Intervention (which automatically succeeds at level 20). If a god can help its clerics in pretty much any way they want as long as they care about them/are paying attention at the moment that the Cleric decides to use Divine Intervention, the god can literally do a Deus Ex Machina to save their mortal butts. Not only is this feature similar to Wish, but it is less limited than it (once you get to be able to use it reliably, that is).
So, if a god has the power to do that for their cleric, more likely than not, they can undo the pitiful Wish spell of a puny Arcana Cleric/Sorcerer/Genie Warlock/Wizard.
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I agree that it really depends on how godly your deities are, and how powerful you allow Wish to be within your campaigns.
In one of the campaigns I played in, we did stop an insane-driven deity with the Wish spell, but not in the typical manner of just wishing for the god to be killed (since straight up killing a god directly with wish was not possible). Instead, we wished for all knowledge of the god to be wiped from the memories of all beings saved for the one who cast the wish spell. Since we followed the lore of worship being the source of a deity's power, we effectively reduced the deity to near nothingness as he lost his worshippers to amnesia.
Ironically enough the caveat of the wisher remembering the Deity.....ultimately led to the deity's return, but still wish did affect the god.
Anyways, yeah. It really depends on how you go about defining your gods and how you go about defining the limits of wish.
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
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Say this works, what do you think happens next? Because to me this sounds primarily like a god doing something, a mortal wishing it away, the god doing it again, and if the mortal wishes it away again there's going to be a very pissed god doing it again and dealing with the mortal in abject fashion.
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Well, it would be a 9th level spell, but I think I disagree a bit on the power levels of Gods. Imagine a deity with a huge following, with thousands of clerics running around who are getting their spells from the God every day, who can manifest avatars on the Prime Material Plane that are only part of the God's power, but are incredibly powerful on their own, who run their domains, all at once. I think even 9th level spells for them barely tap the surface of what they can do every day.
Read through the replies, nice.
Got some differing opinions about power and what counts as a "God", i meant to write deity/divine being (since there are actual "levels" to that).
The majority seems to agree that either a "God" is so powerful that a single wish is just an annoyance at best, or that mortals cannot cast wish.
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In theory, it could. Consider that The Weave is one of the main sources of arcane spellcasting in Toril - arcane casters tap into The Weave in order to cast their spells - and The Weave is directly linked to Mystryl - later Mystra, then Midnight under the guise of Mystra, now Mystra again afaik - who is a greater deity.
So it really all depends on the DM.
If I were the DM, I would be happy to let my player succeed. However, there would be consequences depending on which god he wants to "undo" and for which reason. There are so many exiciting ways this could develop :-)
Yes, it depends very strongly on the DM. There is no Weave and no "Mystra" in my omniverse. Magic in my campaign is cast by tapping into one of the non-mortal planes, opening a tiny tear between the mortal plane and the other plane, and bringing in some of that material to the mortal world. (Simple example: Fireball results from a tear between the mortal world and the elemental plane of fire.)
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Oh yeah, setting is also very important, to be sure.
I tend to assume that generalized question such as the OP are intended for the Forgotten Realms setting of Toril. Even on Abeir, which is also in the Forgotten Realms, it's entirely plausible for Wish to not be powerful enough to combat deific magics due to the way arcane magics work in that world setting.
In Forgotten Realms, I would say wish could affect God magic unless said God would actively fight against it in sort of counterspell/disable way. In which case God most likely would prevail as him/her being "way more powerfull caster". And here is why I think it would work that way:
The weave is just user Interface that Mystryl/Midnight/Mystra made so everyone would get acces to "the magic" (called as raw magic). Mystra maintains and controls that UI and can kick users from using it, including other Gods (but Gods can access raw magic directly anyway), but she dont control "raw magic" itself (AFAIK no one does). So in short, any magic, be it made by mortal or god is fundamentally from same source called as "raw magic". Most mortals just have to use the Weave or Shadow weave to access it (Sorcerers dont need those and are in essense puny gods themselfs as they can tap directly to raw magic). So I would say wish could theorethically affect gods magics.