Here is an example: Say a party is fighting some ropers, and one roper manages to grapple a party member. Now say, for some reason, the DM decides to (1. Have another roper grab and succeed on the same character, or (2. have the same roper use another of it's tentacles against the same creature. What would happen? And this applies to creatures in general, not just ropers.
The target can spend an action to end one of the grapples. It if eventually manages to end all of them it is free from the grappled condition.
This means multiple targets grappling the same creature will make it much more difficult for that creature to break free.
There are features and spells that can make it easier to escape or prevent grapples, such as the Freedom of Movement spell.
-
Note: a creature cannot grapple the target more than once at a time. It doesn't matter if the roper uses one or 4 tendrils - it counts as 1 grapple. Multiple creatures can grapple the same target, though, and the target would have to break free of each grappler individually using 1 action to try and break free of 1 grapple.
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The target can spend an action to end one of the grapples. It if eventually manages to end all of them it is free from the grappled condition.
This means multiple targets grappling the same creature will make it much more difficult for that creature to break free.
There are features and spells that can make it easier to escape or prevent grapples, such as the Freedom of Movement spell.
It's something I prefer to houserule, but by the rules the above is correct. Strictly speaking, you deal with each grapple separately. Just seems silly to me.
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How do you rule on multiple grapple sources, Pang? In my eyes it makes sense that multiple critters can all contribute to pinning something down. Dogpile on the Perp is a valid* tactic in both police work and football, after all.
How do you rule on multiple grapple sources, Pang? In my eyes it makes sense that multiple critters can all contribute to pinning something down. Dogpile on the Perp is a valid* tactic in both police work and football, after all.
A pile-on isn't the same as a bunch of people grappling. A grapple allows you to move whoever you're grappling, for instance, and allows you to move to begin with. Being on top of the pile shouldn't let you drag the victim at the bottom with you, and being at the bottom of the pile should make it pretty difficult to move period. The specifics might change a bit depending on what kind of critters are involved, but assuming grapplers and grapplee are all medium-sized humanoids:
- three grapplers tops; each grappler can benefit from the Help action of one non-grappler (with something like ropers from @Princedg5678's example I'd allow more grapplers, probably even as many as can fit around the target of all those grapples, because their anatomy makes it easier to get in there; with something like large - Medium in game terms - snakes I'd allow more grapplers but no Help action, since a snake trying to help another snake grapple is arguably just going to have to grapple for that to work anyway). - all grapples are resolved individually, as per normal, but moving involves working together if there are multiple grapplers and for every extra grappler the grappled creature's size counts as one size smaller for the purpose of determining speed while grappling (also, no Dash action while grappling); if the grapplers for some reason want to move in different directions they'll have a Str (Athletics) contest (if the outcome is close, I'll reduce the distance they can move).
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Here is an example: Say a party is fighting some ropers, and one roper manages to grapple a party member. Now say, for some reason, the DM decides to (1. Have another roper grab and succeed on the same character, or (2. have the same roper use another of it's tentacles against the same creature. What would happen? And this applies to creatures in general, not just ropers.
To add to the posts above, bear in mind grapples automatically break when the grappled target is moved. Here's an example consequence:
Adam grapples Bob.
Carl grapples Bob.
Bob does nothing meaningful.
Adam drags Bob away from Carl. This means Carl's grapple on Bob is automatically broken - RAW, Carl has absolutely no way to resist this; Adam's drag moves Bob, and grapples universally autobreak when the target moves out of reach*, no matter how much "oomph" their movement has.
In practice, every GM I've ever had would houserule this immediately to instead allow Carl to resist by making an Athletics check opposing Adam's Athletics check. Who would win on a tie would be arbitrary and up to the GM. Without such a rule, your party can rescue grappled members, such as in your Roper example, using the above tactic - just grapple each other and drag away, and you'll autobreak the Roper grapples.
* RAW, you need to use a hand to grapple, but the grapple doesn't break until reach is left, so e.g. if you have an open hand and a whip, you can't grapple with the whip, but if you grapple someone with your hand, the grapple won't break until your target is more than 10 feet away. This is Stupid, and every GM I've ever had has not permitted this rule to stand, either.
Note: a creature cannot grapple the target more than once at a time. It doesn't matter if the roper uses one or 4 tendrils - it counts as 1 grapple. Multiple creatures can grapple the same target, though, and the target would have to break free of each grappler individually using 1 action to try and break free of 1 grapple.
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K, thanks for the feedback, but what about the second option: where the roper uses more than one of it's tentacles to grapple a single creature?
Doesn't change anything. Same as with a humanoid using both arms to grapple with someone vs using just one arm, there's no mechanical difference.
Ok. But if I were DMing, I would possibly make the escape DC larger. Cuz the more things that are holding on to you, the harder is it to escape, is it not?
K, thanks for the feedback, but what about the second option: where the roper uses more than one of it's tentacles to grapple a single creature?
Doesn't change anything. Same as with a humanoid using both arms to grapple with someone vs using just one arm, there's no mechanical difference.
Ok. But if I were DMing, I would possibly make the escape DC larger. Cuz the more things that are holding on to you, the harder is it to escape, is it not?
Then I wouldn't want to play in your games. I'm not a fan of taking something that can be a powerful disadvantage to the party and making it even more difficult without regard for the implications it can have. It's a DM vs Player mentality.
You could let players benefit by now being able to grapple somebody twice (once for each arm), but now how to balance that without becoming overpowered - especially given players can easily get Athletics proficiency, bonuses and advantage, and now you're making it even more difficult for the enemy - suddenly wrestling is now the most efficient combat mechanic. Hmm. And if you don't benefit players but enemies get boosted for "double-grappling" you, they feel cheated as your reasoning no longer holds sense. Plus, multiple enemies 'double-grappling' the same enemy is going to be basically impossible to escape without magic.
It's a massive load of headache to balance it. The basics are fine, jeebus.
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The target can spend an action to end one of the grapples.
It's worth noting that the shove action is a more action-efficient way to break grapples, as a character with extra attacks need only spend one of them shoving as a part of the attack. Shoving an enemy would break the grapple by pushing them out of an adjacent space.
Note: a creature cannot grapple the target more than once at a time. It doesn't matter if the roper uses one or 4 tendrils - it counts as 1 grapple. Multiple creatures can grapple the same target, though, and the target would have to break free of each grappler individually using 1 action to try and break free of 1 grapple.
Where do you get this note from? Is it your house rule?
Note: a creature cannot grapple the target more than once at a time. It doesn't matter if the roper uses one or 4 tendrils - it counts as 1 grapple. Multiple creatures can grapple the same target, though, and the target would have to break free of each grappler individually using 1 action to try and break free of 1 grapple.
Where do you get this note from? Is it your house rule?
Mix of PHB and MM.
Nothing anywhere provides a general rule of a creature stacking up grapples. There are multiple instances of targets breaking a creature's/player's grapple using 1 action.
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Effects With the Same Name Don't Stack Different effects in the game can affect a target at the same time. For example, two different benefits can give you a bonus to your Armor Class. But when two or more effects have the same proper name, only one of them applies while the durations of the effects overlap (a duration is a time span of 1 round or more). The most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—is the one that applies, or the most recent effect applies if the effects are equally potent. For example, if bless spell is cast on you when you’re still under the effect of an earlier bless, you gain the benefit of only one casting.
K, thanks for the feedback, but what about the second option: where the roper uses more than one of it's tentacles to grapple a single creature?
Doesn't change anything. Same as with a humanoid using both arms to grapple with someone vs using just one arm, there's no mechanical difference.
Ok. But if I were DMing, I would possibly make the escape DC larger. Cuz the more things that are holding on to you, the harder is it to escape, is it not?
I really wouldn't, for much the same reasons as Cyb3rM1nd. I'd advise not thinking too much/solely in terms of simulation. It's a game first and foremost, so the game aspect of the rules should come first and making grappling too powerful is bad for the game. Keep in mind that in most cases grapples are initiated by characters that are good at them and target characters that are generally poor at breaking free. It doesn't need to be tipped more in favour of the grapplers.
I'd prefer to houserule away the one action per grappler to attempt to break loose though, to be honest, because I think it's a little too punishing but I'm not sure I have any better alternatives. I'm thinking about just making it a single action regardless of the number of grapplers, obviously still requiring a separate check for each grapple, but that might be a little too far in the other direction. I'll have some testing to do before I'll be able to recommend it (or recommend against it).
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Note: a creature cannot grapple the target more than once at a time. It doesn't matter if the roper uses one or 4 tendrils - it counts as 1 grapple. Multiple creatures can grapple the same target, though, and the target would have to break free of each grappler individually using 1 action to try and break free of 1 grapple.
Where do you get this note from? Is it your house rule?
It's the most logical interpretation of the rules, to me at least.
Effects With the Same Name Don't Stack Different effects in the game can affect a target at the same time. For example, two different benefits can give you a bonus to your Armor Class. But when two or more effects have the same proper name, only one of them applies while the durations of the effects overlap (a duration is a time span of 1 round or more). The most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—is the one that applies, or the most recent effect applies if the effects are equally potent. For example, if bless spell is cast on you when you’re still under the effect of an earlier bless, you gain the benefit of only one casting.
Doesn't really matter. The grappled condition only applies once regardless of the number of people grappling you, perfectly conform the rules. This doesn't prevent multiple people all grappling the same target.
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K, thanks for the feedback, but what about the second option: where the roper uses more than one of it's tentacles to grapple a single creature?
Doesn't change anything. Same as with a humanoid using both arms to grapple with someone vs using just one arm, there's no mechanical difference.
Ok. But if I were DMing, I would possibly make the escape DC larger. Cuz the more things that are holding on to you, the harder is it to escape, is it not?
Then I wouldn't want to play in your games. I'm not a fan of taking something that can be a powerful disadvantage to the party and making it even more difficult without regard for the implications it can have. It's a DM vs Player mentality.
You could let players benefit by now being able to grapple somebody twice (once for each arm), but now how to balance that without becoming overpowered - especially given players can easily get Athletics proficiency, bonuses and advantage, and now you're making it even more difficult for the enemy - suddenly wrestling is now the most efficient combat mechanic. Hmm. And if you don't benefit players but enemies get boosted for "double-grappling" you, they feel cheated as your reasoning no longer holds sense. Plus, multiple enemies 'double-grappling' the same enemy is going to be basically impossible to escape without magic.
It's a massive load of headache to balance it. The basics are fine, jeebus.
unless it's a grappling sort of thing. Octopus. Gorilla with extra long arms. Massive grappling monster of grappling doom. Then it makes perfect sense because that's what the monster does. It's like saying a low level monster with 4 arms shouldn't get 4 attacks because PCs at low level can't get 4 attacks.
Grapplers grappler. For PCs, grappling is an option but they aren't DESIGNED to do that. Monsters certainly can be. No harm no foul
K, thanks for the feedback, but what about the second option: where the roper uses more than one of it's tentacles to grapple a single creature?
Doesn't change anything. Same as with a humanoid using both arms to grapple with someone vs using just one arm, there's no mechanical difference.
Ok. But if I were DMing, I would possibly make the escape DC larger. Cuz the more things that are holding on to you, the harder is it to escape, is it not?
Then I wouldn't want to play in your games. I'm not a fan of taking something that can be a powerful disadvantage to the party and making it even more difficult without regard for the implications it can have. It's a DM vs Player mentality.
You could let players benefit by now being able to grapple somebody twice (once for each arm), but now how to balance that without becoming overpowered - especially given players can easily get Athletics proficiency, bonuses and advantage, and now you're making it even more difficult for the enemy - suddenly wrestling is now the most efficient combat mechanic. Hmm. And if you don't benefit players but enemies get boosted for "double-grappling" you, they feel cheated as your reasoning no longer holds sense. Plus, multiple enemies 'double-grappling' the same enemy is going to be basically impossible to escape without magic.
It's a massive load of headache to balance it. The basics are fine, jeebus.
unless it's a grappling sort of thing. Octopus. Gorilla with extra long arms. Massive grappling monster of grappling doom. Then it makes perfect sense because that's what the monster does. It's like saying a low level monster with 4 arms shouldn't get 4 attacks because PCs at low level can't get 4 attacks.
Grapplers grappler. For PCs, grappling is an option but they aren't DESIGNED to do that. Monsters certainly can be. No harm no foul
Then it's built it into the critter. Ropers have weakening tendrils so the grappled character has disadvantage on checks to escape the grapple, for instance. Just keep in mind this sort of thing gets out of hand fast - that disadvantage is pretty harsh too.
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K, thanks for the feedback, but what about the second option: where the roper uses more than one of it's tentacles to grapple a single creature?
Doesn't change anything. Same as with a humanoid using both arms to grapple with someone vs using just one arm, there's no mechanical difference.
Ok. But if I were DMing, I would possibly make the escape DC larger. Cuz the more things that are holding on to you, the harder is it to escape, is it not?
Then I wouldn't want to play in your games. I'm not a fan of taking something that can be a powerful disadvantage to the party and making it even more difficult without regard for the implications it can have. It's a DM vs Player mentality.
You could let players benefit by now being able to grapple somebody twice (once for each arm), but now how to balance that without becoming overpowered - especially given players can easily get Athletics proficiency, bonuses and advantage, and now you're making it even more difficult for the enemy - suddenly wrestling is now the most efficient combat mechanic. Hmm. And if you don't benefit players but enemies get boosted for "double-grappling" you, they feel cheated as your reasoning no longer holds sense. Plus, multiple enemies 'double-grappling' the same enemy is going to be basically impossible to escape without magic.
It's a massive load of headache to balance it. The basics are fine, jeebus.
unless it's a grappling sort of thing. Octopus. Gorilla with extra long arms. Massive grappling monster of grappling doom. Then it makes perfect sense because that's what the monster does. It's like saying a low level monster with 4 arms shouldn't get 4 attacks because PCs at low level can't get 4 attacks.
Grapplers grappler. For PCs, grappling is an option but they aren't DESIGNED to do that. Monsters certainly can be. No harm no foul
Then it's built it into the critter. Ropers have weakening tendrils so the grappled character has disadvantage on checks to escape the grapple, for instance. Just keep in mind this sort of thing gets out of hand fast - that disadvantage is pretty harsh too.
Noted. As I use monsters, I never give my players the illusion that monsters are supposed to be fair. Out of hand is par for the course in many monsters. Unbalanced for the level, environment, etc. That's sort of the point (for us/me).
Here is an example: Say a party is fighting some ropers, and one roper manages to grapple a party member. Now say, for some reason, the DM decides to (1. Have another roper grab and succeed on the same character, or (2. have the same roper use another of it's tentacles against the same creature. What would happen? And this applies to creatures in general, not just ropers.
The target can spend an action to end one of the grapples. It if eventually manages to end all of them it is free from the grappled condition.
This means multiple targets grappling the same creature will make it much more difficult for that creature to break free.
There are features and spells that can make it easier to escape or prevent grapples, such as the Freedom of Movement spell.
-
Note: a creature cannot grapple the target more than once at a time. It doesn't matter if the roper uses one or 4 tendrils - it counts as 1 grapple. Multiple creatures can grapple the same target, though, and the target would have to break free of each grappler individually using 1 action to try and break free of 1 grapple.
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It's something I prefer to houserule, but by the rules the above is correct. Strictly speaking, you deal with each grapple separately. Just seems silly to me.
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How do you rule on multiple grapple sources, Pang? In my eyes it makes sense that multiple critters can all contribute to pinning something down. Dogpile on the Perp is a valid* tactic in both police work and football, after all.
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A pile-on isn't the same as a bunch of people grappling. A grapple allows you to move whoever you're grappling, for instance, and allows you to move to begin with. Being on top of the pile shouldn't let you drag the victim at the bottom with you, and being at the bottom of the pile should make it pretty difficult to move period. The specifics might change a bit depending on what kind of critters are involved, but assuming grapplers and grapplee are all medium-sized humanoids:
- three grapplers tops; each grappler can benefit from the Help action of one non-grappler (with something like ropers from @Princedg5678's example I'd allow more grapplers, probably even as many as can fit around the target of all those grapples, because their anatomy makes it easier to get in there; with something like large - Medium in game terms - snakes I'd allow more grapplers but no Help action, since a snake trying to help another snake grapple is arguably just going to have to grapple for that to work anyway).
- all grapples are resolved individually, as per normal, but moving involves working together if there are multiple grapplers and for every extra grappler the grappled creature's size counts as one size smaller for the purpose of determining speed while grappling (also, no Dash action while grappling); if the grapplers for some reason want to move in different directions they'll have a Str (Athletics) contest (if the outcome is close, I'll reduce the distance they can move).
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To add to the posts above, bear in mind grapples automatically break when the grappled target is moved. Here's an example consequence:
In practice, every GM I've ever had would houserule this immediately to instead allow Carl to resist by making an Athletics check opposing Adam's Athletics check. Who would win on a tie would be arbitrary and up to the GM. Without such a rule, your party can rescue grappled members, such as in your Roper example, using the above tactic - just grapple each other and drag away, and you'll autobreak the Roper grapples.
* RAW, you need to use a hand to grapple, but the grapple doesn't break until reach is left, so e.g. if you have an open hand and a whip, you can't grapple with the whip, but if you grapple someone with your hand, the grapple won't break until your target is more than 10 feet away. This is Stupid, and every GM I've ever had has not permitted this rule to stand, either.
K, thanks for the feedback, but what about the second option: where the roper uses more than one of it's tentacles to grapple a single creature?
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Doesn't change anything. Same as with a humanoid using both arms to grapple with someone vs using just one arm, there's no mechanical difference.
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Ok. But if I were DMing, I would possibly make the escape DC larger. Cuz the more things that are holding on to you, the harder is it to escape, is it not?
Then I wouldn't want to play in your games. I'm not a fan of taking something that can be a powerful disadvantage to the party and making it even more difficult without regard for the implications it can have. It's a DM vs Player mentality.
You could let players benefit by now being able to grapple somebody twice (once for each arm), but now how to balance that without becoming overpowered - especially given players can easily get Athletics proficiency, bonuses and advantage, and now you're making it even more difficult for the enemy - suddenly wrestling is now the most efficient combat mechanic. Hmm. And if you don't benefit players but enemies get boosted for "double-grappling" you, they feel cheated as your reasoning no longer holds sense. Plus, multiple enemies 'double-grappling' the same enemy is going to be basically impossible to escape without magic.
It's a massive load of headache to balance it. The basics are fine, jeebus.
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It's worth noting that the shove action is a more action-efficient way to break grapples, as a character with extra attacks need only spend one of them shoving as a part of the attack. Shoving an enemy would break the grapple by pushing them out of an adjacent space.
Where do you get this note from? Is it your house rule?
Mix of PHB and MM.
Nothing anywhere provides a general rule of a creature stacking up grapples. There are multiple instances of targets breaking a creature's/player's grapple using 1 action.
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Effects with the same name don't stack:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dmg/running-the-game#CombiningGameEffects
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I really wouldn't, for much the same reasons as Cyb3rM1nd. I'd advise not thinking too much/solely in terms of simulation. It's a game first and foremost, so the game aspect of the rules should come first and making grappling too powerful is bad for the game. Keep in mind that in most cases grapples are initiated by characters that are good at them and target characters that are generally poor at breaking free. It doesn't need to be tipped more in favour of the grapplers.
I'd prefer to houserule away the one action per grappler to attempt to break loose though, to be honest, because I think it's a little too punishing but I'm not sure I have any better alternatives. I'm thinking about just making it a single action regardless of the number of grapplers, obviously still requiring a separate check for each grapple, but that might be a little too far in the other direction. I'll have some testing to do before I'll be able to recommend it (or recommend against it).
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It's the most logical interpretation of the rules, to me at least.
Doesn't really matter. The grappled condition only applies once regardless of the number of people grappling you, perfectly conform the rules. This doesn't prevent multiple people all grappling the same target.
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unless it's a grappling sort of thing. Octopus. Gorilla with extra long arms. Massive grappling monster of grappling doom. Then it makes perfect sense because that's what the monster does. It's like saying a low level monster with 4 arms shouldn't get 4 attacks because PCs at low level can't get 4 attacks.
Grapplers grappler. For PCs, grappling is an option but they aren't DESIGNED to do that. Monsters certainly can be. No harm no foul
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Then it's built it into the critter. Ropers have weakening tendrils so the grappled character has disadvantage on checks to escape the grapple, for instance. Just keep in mind this sort of thing gets out of hand fast - that disadvantage is pretty harsh too.
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Noted. As I use monsters, I never give my players the illusion that monsters are supposed to be fair. Out of hand is par for the course in many monsters. Unbalanced for the level, environment, etc. That's sort of the point (for us/me).
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