I don't like the idea that their is some cosmic system or gods that define who or what a person is:
When it's established that someone is "this" or "that" period or that fate is pre-determined by gods or prophecies, then non-god character's are pretty much puppets with feelings that are only capable of what fate decides for them. But when character's have free-will, what they do with it matters, it also says something about the layers of who they are, they have an impact on the story and vice versa i.e. they gain character progression
Except for the fact you could ALWAYS renounce your Alignment. That was why Gygax clearly said, in no uncertain terms, bandits who had surrendered and then renounced their Evil alignment could still be dispatched and its not an Alignment hit. They would still have to pay for any/all Capital crimes they committed, which includes Brigandage, Murder, etc. They are then sent on to the bosom of the Greater Gods of Good instead of being consigned to the pits of the Nine Hells or the layers of the Abyss.
I don't like the idea that their is some cosmic system or gods that define who or what a person is:
When it's established that someone is "this" or "that" period or that fate is pre-determined by gods or prophecies, then non-god character's are pretty much puppets with feelings that are only capable of what fate decides for them. But when character's have free-will, what they do with it matters, it also says something about the layers of who they are, they have an impact on the story and vice versa i.e. they gain character progression
Except for the fact you could ALWAYS renounce your Alignment. That was why Gygax clearly said, in no uncertain terms, bandits who had surrendered and then renounced their Evil alignment could still be dispatched and its not an Alignment hit. They would still have to pay for any/all Capital crimes they committed, which includes Brigandage, Murder, etc. They are then sent on to the bosom of the Greater Gods of Good instead of being consigned to the pits of the Nine Hells or the layers of the Abyss.
If the alignment discussion is about determinism and free-will, free-will is the safer assumption as the assumption of free-will falls within the realm of implemented determinism while implemented determinism falls outside the realm of implemented free will.
...but I don't see how that relates to the D&D 5e alignment system.
I agree with the statements that offer leaving alignment up to the DM for the campaign's needs. I like it best when alignments mean nothing and the actions and reputations mean everything. The lore where deities do not know the hearts of the characters and can only judge actions are my jam. In planes where the alternate rules regarding alignments are implemented, the plane itself judges the character by the actions and affects the characters appropriately to shift the characters' actions in spite of the characters' thinking.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Alignment is a complete waste of time; it's an immature attempt to describe something that does not objectively exist. Instead, players and game masters should focus on motivations of n/pcs and how those motivations enhance immersion and game play.
I find the poll fascinating. There is very little love for Evil out there. There is very little love for Law. Lots of Good, lots of Chaos, plenty of Neutral. The vast majority don't like Alignment at all and want it changed or removed. They have taken 8 pages to tell us at length why 1 page in the Player's Handbook is all wrong.
Alignment is a complete waste of time; it's an immature attempt to describe something that does not objectively exist. Instead, players and game masters should focus on motivations of n/pcs and how those motivations enhance immersion and game play.
I agree that alignment is not something objective, though I do believe people have predisposed behaviors or personalities that can be triggered by our current mental state and our environment. But I don't think motivations should be the main focus of NPCs or PCs, also I think behaviors are more important than motivations:
Behaviors can have symptoms, meaning they can be diagnosed as something healthy or harmful to others or themselves, characterize, given the right conditions, and indicate motivations, because at least some conscious behaviors are linked to a person's motivations i.e. motivations manifest through behaviors, the question is which ones?
Some characters can have good intentions and motivations, but they don't equate to good consequences e.g. "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." However, good actions do lead to good consequences, so regardless of motivations, good behavior is good. Motivation may be what drives or incentives a person, but it's the actions themselves that leave an impact on the world.
And even more importantly, even in quantum theory, the Second law of thermodynamics applies, meaning that there is a definitive arrow of time and entropy will always increase. So even though this might seem to further chaos, in the end, chaos is very tightly bound by law. :p
To say that "chaos is very tightly bound by law" because of how time appears to work based on current theories of physics is presumptuous: Physics is an incomplete science, it's fine to use findings in physics as the basis for your arguments, but just know that as long as physics is incomplete, every theory and piece of information is up for debate, including it's sub-fields. So time like everything in physics can be misunderstood: their could be facets of time, possibly even other dimensions we have yet to discover that add new depth and behavior to time beyond our current understanding of it. Think of it like "Flat land," but with time instead of space.
Also when I said that the laws physics indirectly influenced D&D I probably should have instead said that it's the physical properties of the universe as they exist allow for our planet, humanity and our creations to exist. And however they may change, if they weren't the way they were in previous events, the world would be a much different place: it could range from something like a parallel universe to something unimaginable.
Alignment is a complete waste of time; it's an immature attempt to describe something that does not objectively exist. Instead, players and game masters should focus on motivations of n/pcs and how those motivations enhance immersion and game play.
It most certainly does objectively exist in the D&D Multiverse. Otherwise the Positive/Negative Energy Planes would not exist nor would the Cosmic Wheel. Spells like Detect Good/Evil could not exist.
This whole thread (and the hundreds like it before) is proof that alignment is bad at doing the very job it’s supposed to do. It exists to give an objective standard of morality so players can use a simple phrase and everyone knows what they’re talking about. But no one can agree on what it means, so we’d be better off without any attempt at a standard at all.
I put it to you that would only be relevant if we were all in the same campaign together. It can mean different things in different worlds. And that is ok. Even within the same campaign there could be different worlds with different laws of metaphysics, if the DM is so inclined.
Those 6 words should pretty much resolve the disagreements here in regards to playing D&D.
If not, that would strongly suggested that the disagreements are not in regards to playing D&D.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
I put it to you that would only be relevant if we were all in the same campaign together. It can mean different things in different worlds. And that is ok. Even within the same campaign there could be different worlds with different laws of metaphysics, if the DM is so inclined.
Those 6 words should pretty much resolve the disagreements here in regards to playing D&D.
If not, that would strongly suggested that the disagreements are not in regards to playing D&D.
This thread is less to do with playing D&D and more to do with D&D's alignment system and possibly the nature of cosmic planes: the alignment system just doesn't work in my opinion, I think it oversimplifies characters down to a 3 by 3 table that dictates what qualities of a character matter most, at least after they die, which means the cosmic planes themselves oversimplify characters. If their are only cosmic planes based on how good-evil, lawful-chaotic or neutral you are, then it squeezes out everyone who isn't an extreme of one of these, kind of like a bad personality test lol. A good character is much more than how their alignment describes them and I don't think the alignment system or the cosmic planes do a good character justice.
I put it to you that would only be relevant if we were all in the same campaign together. It can mean different things in different worlds. And that is ok. Even within the same campaign there could be different worlds with different laws of metaphysics, if the DM is so inclined.
Those 6 words should pretty much resolve the disagreements here in regards to playing D&D.
If not, that would strongly suggested that the disagreements are not in regards to playing D&D.
This thread is less to do with playing D&D and more to do with D&D's alignment system and possibly the nature of cosmic planes: the alignment system just doesn't work in my opinion, I think it oversimplifies characters down to a 3 by 3 table that dictates what qualities of a character matter most, at least after they die, which means the cosmic planes themselves oversimplify characters. If their are only cosmic planes based on how good-evil, lawful-chaotic or neutral you are, then it squeezes out everyone who isn't an extreme of one of these, kind of like a bad personality test lol. A good character is much more than how their alignment describes them and I don't think the alignment system or the cosmic planes do a good character justice.
This is sort of like saying there is a problem with the prison system because there isn't a large enough variety of prisons. Or that the justice system should be abolished since it only has 'guilty' and 'not guilty?' (Despite it having many different levels of guilt and of sentencing). The Outer Planes are not all monolithic.
How many campaigns deal with the Outer Planes and/or character afterlives at all?
When you are talking about doing a good character justice, do you mean a character who is good? Or a character who is interesting and/or well played?
How are the cosmic planes like prison systems? What's the similarity for this example? Also aren't some cosmic planes like the good ones supposed to be the opposite of a prison, or a heaven.
I have no idea at all how many campaigns deal with the outer planes or character afterlives, but character alignments have something to do with the cosmic planes, as the cosmic planes are the hallmarks of alignment.
When I said "I don't think the alignment system or the cosmic planes do a good character justice" I meant a good character by design, personality, nature, etc.
I put it to you that would only be relevant if we were all in the same campaign together. It can mean different things in different worlds. And that is ok. Even within the same campaign there could be different worlds with different laws of metaphysics, if the DM is so inclined.
Those 6 words should pretty much resolve the disagreements here in regards to playing D&D.
If not, that would strongly suggested that the disagreements are not in regards to playing D&D.
This thread is less to do with playing D&D and more to do with D&D's alignment system and possibly the nature of cosmic planes: the alignment system just doesn't work in my opinion, I think it oversimplifies characters down to a 3 by 3 table that dictates what qualities of a character matter most, at least after they die, which means the cosmic planes themselves oversimplify characters. If their are only cosmic planes based on how good-evil, lawful-chaotic or neutral you are, then it squeezes out everyone who isn't an extreme of one of these, kind of like a bad personality test lol. A good character is much more than how their alignment describes them and I don't think the alignment system or the cosmic planes do a good character justice.
This is sort of like saying there is a problem with the prison system because there isn't a large enough variety of prisons. Or that the justice system should be abolished since it only has 'guilty' and 'not guilty?' (Despite it having many different levels of guilt and of sentencing). The Outer Planes are not all monolithic.
How many campaigns deal with the Outer Planes and/or character afterlives at all?
When you are talking about doing a good character justice, do you mean a character who is good? Or a character who is interesting and/or well played?
How are the cosmic planes like prison systems? What's the similarity for this example? Also aren't some cosmic planes like the good ones supposed to be the opposite of a prison, or a heaven.
I have no idea at all how many campaigns deal with the outer planes or character afterlives, but character alignments have something to do with the cosmic planes, as the cosmic planes are the hallmarks of alignment.
When I said "I don't think the alignment system or the cosmic planes do a good character justice" I meant a good character by design, personality, nature, etc.
Even with heaven, you are forced to move there and cannot move out voluntarily. The upper planes are not meant to punish but on death you nevertheless go where you are assigned to go. And the lower planes are intended to punish.
Now I get the prison example
Also what do you mean when you say "The Outer Planes are not monolithic?:" Are you referring to the place outside of the outer planes? Or that because their are multiple outer planes that none are truly absolute?
If the outer planes are the end all places for where dead creatures are naturally supposed to go, then wouldn't that make them pretty monolithic if their the final destination for life?
What does the monolithic quality of the outer planes have to do with those of the same alignment being clones or not? The outer planes dictate where people go after death based on their alignment, what does that have to do with being a clone?
I do not have a problem with the alignment system. I think the problem with alignment comes in when players and DMs try to use it as a straightjacket and not an RPG GUIDELINE. I think the removal of the alignment from DnD would have an impact on the game in not a good way. One, element of DnD that I find fascinating is the different planes related to alignment. In particular, I like the whole Blood War component of the never ending war taking place between the Devils (LE) and the Demons (CE). I think removing alignments would lessen this to a large degree.
Lastly, I personally do not like the new stat blocks for monsters with alignments removed. I understand and do not have a problem with WOTC removing alignments from prime material world races such as orcs, goblins, drow, etc. To me this makes sense. Some tribes of orcs will be brutal and savage and adhere to a chaotic evil way of life. While another tribe of orcs may not adhere to said philosophy just like human tribes have moral variation. Yet, cosmically evil creatures such as Demons, Devils, Yugoloth, Aberrations as well as more traditional monsters (many undead such as shadows, etc.) I think should have a respective evil alignment. I just purchased VGTR and it just makes no sense to me to have something listed as "FIEND" and tell all it does that is malefic but how dare you use the term evil. This is not to say that some Demon couldn't exist somewhere that broke away from her kin and decided to try and lead a path of redemption but that should be a rare enough exception that beings embodying moral philosophies (Celestials, Fiends, etc.) should be able to have an alignment listed.
Technically, if a Fiend or a Celestial changes Alignment, they become something else. A Celestial that becomes Evil becomes a Fiend or similar. Of course they break their own rule. Zariel, a Celestial and one of the very most powerful, is in the first plane of Hell now, supposedly still a Celestial in spite of being Lawful Evil.
I feel that the alignment chart does a reasonable job, as there's not much that won't fit into it in one way or another. As there are certain things which have effects exclusively dependent on alignment, I think that it is beneficial to the game and is a layer of depth that, if removed, would only open a bigger can of worms from the nonsense it could inflict ("this blade is that of a radiant god, why is this devil using it? they shouldn't be able to! make it so devils cannot use it - oh, but what if it's a good devil... etc.")
It is also worth treating the alignment chart as an input for NPC's and an output for PCs. The DM decides what NPC's will do, using their alignment as part of that equation (along with every other factor). The DM also decides the players alignment based on their actions. This stops the players being restricted by their alignment, but also means that their actions have consequences on their characters, albeit fairly minor ones.
For alignments on stat blocks, this is for the general rule. A DM isn't confined to the rules, so making good devils and evil angels is not a problem. The alignment is never considered for balancing as it rarely has any impact on the rules.
As for the argument that alignment doesn't actually exist in real life - there are people who purposefully run over animals with their cars. If they see a cat - somebody's pet - on the road, they will swerve to hit it. If questioned they just say "I don't like cats". If you tell them that they are being horrible for doing this, they laugh. They're proud of it. These people categorically fall under "Evil", and that's real life.
With regards to animals, you can put the scale of good-neutral-evil in there easily: an animal lies at the side of the road. The good person stops and sees if it's alive. A neutral person drives past - most people are neutral - and an evil person runs it over to make sure it's dead.
Except for the fact you could ALWAYS renounce your Alignment. That was why Gygax clearly said, in no uncertain terms, bandits who had surrendered and then renounced their Evil alignment could still be dispatched and its not an Alignment hit. They would still have to pay for any/all Capital crimes they committed, which includes Brigandage, Murder, etc. They are then sent on to the bosom of the Greater Gods of Good instead of being consigned to the pits of the Nine Hells or the layers of the Abyss.
OK good to know, thank you for the information
If the alignment discussion is about determinism and free-will, free-will is the safer assumption as the assumption of free-will falls within the realm of implemented determinism while implemented determinism falls outside the realm of implemented free will.
...but I don't see how that relates to the D&D 5e alignment system.
I agree with the statements that offer leaving alignment up to the DM for the campaign's needs. I like it best when alignments mean nothing and the actions and reputations mean everything. The lore where deities do not know the hearts of the characters and can only judge actions are my jam. In planes where the alternate rules regarding alignments are implemented, the plane itself judges the character by the actions and affects the characters appropriately to shift the characters' actions in spite of the characters' thinking.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Alignment is a complete waste of time; it's an immature attempt to describe something that does not objectively exist. Instead, players and game masters should focus on motivations of n/pcs and how those motivations enhance immersion and game play.
I find the poll fascinating. There is very little love for Evil out there. There is very little love for Law. Lots of Good, lots of Chaos, plenty of Neutral. The vast majority don't like Alignment at all and want it changed or removed. They have taken 8 pages to tell us at length why 1 page in the Player's Handbook is all wrong.
<Insert clever signature here>
I agree that alignment is not something objective, though I do believe people have predisposed behaviors or personalities that can be triggered by our current mental state and our environment. But I don't think motivations should be the main focus of NPCs or PCs, also I think behaviors are more important than motivations:
The road to hell is paved with good intentions (check out the time stamps 7:49 and 9:40)
To say that "chaos is very tightly bound by law" because of how time appears to work based on current theories of physics is presumptuous: Physics is an incomplete science, it's fine to use findings in physics as the basis for your arguments, but just know that as long as physics is incomplete, every theory and piece of information is up for debate, including it's sub-fields. So time like everything in physics can be misunderstood: their could be facets of time, possibly even other dimensions we have yet to discover that add new depth and behavior to time beyond our current understanding of it. Think of it like "Flat land," but with time instead of space.
Also when I said that the laws physics indirectly influenced D&D I probably should have instead said that it's the physical properties of the universe as they exist allow for our planet, humanity and our creations to exist. And however they may change, if they weren't the way they were in previous events, the world would be a much different place: it could range from something like a parallel universe to something unimaginable.
Exploring other dimensions - Alex Rosenthal and George Zaidan - YouTube
It most certainly does objectively exist in the D&D Multiverse. Otherwise the Positive/Negative Energy Planes would not exist nor would the Cosmic Wheel. Spells like Detect Good/Evil could not exist.
This whole thread (and the hundreds like it before) is proof that alignment is bad at doing the very job it’s supposed to do. It exists to give an objective standard of morality so players can use a simple phrase and everyone knows what they’re talking about. But no one can agree on what it means, so we’d be better off without any attempt at a standard at all.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Those 6 words should pretty much resolve the disagreements here in regards to playing D&D.
If not, that would strongly suggested that the disagreements are not in regards to playing D&D.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
This thread is less to do with playing D&D and more to do with D&D's alignment system and possibly the nature of cosmic planes: the alignment system just doesn't work in my opinion, I think it oversimplifies characters down to a 3 by 3 table that dictates what qualities of a character matter most, at least after they die, which means the cosmic planes themselves oversimplify characters. If their are only cosmic planes based on how good-evil, lawful-chaotic or neutral you are, then it squeezes out everyone who isn't an extreme of one of these, kind of like a bad personality test lol. A good character is much more than how their alignment describes them and I don't think the alignment system or the cosmic planes do a good character justice.
I personaly like it a bit, I mean it is good for situations as a DM if a player isn't there but otherwisea i'd say it helps to sort your character
How are the cosmic planes like prison systems? What's the similarity for this example? Also aren't some cosmic planes like the good ones supposed to be the opposite of a prison, or a heaven.
I have no idea at all how many campaigns deal with the outer planes or character afterlives, but character alignments have something to do with the cosmic planes, as the cosmic planes are the hallmarks of alignment.
When I said "I don't think the alignment system or the cosmic planes do a good character justice" I meant a good character by design, personality, nature, etc.
Now I get the prison example
Also what do you mean when you say "The Outer Planes are not monolithic?:" Are you referring to the place outside of the outer planes? Or that because their are multiple outer planes that none are truly absolute?
If the outer planes are the end all places for where dead creatures are naturally supposed to go, then wouldn't that make them pretty monolithic if their the final destination for life?
By the way, where do non-aligned creatures go?
What does the monolithic quality of the outer planes have to do with those of the same alignment being clones or not? The outer planes dictate where people go after death based on their alignment, what does that have to do with being a clone?
I do not have a problem with the alignment system. I think the problem with alignment comes in when players and DMs try to use it as a straightjacket and not an RPG GUIDELINE. I think the removal of the alignment from DnD would have an impact on the game in not a good way. One, element of DnD that I find fascinating is the different planes related to alignment. In particular, I like the whole Blood War component of the never ending war taking place between the Devils (LE) and the Demons (CE). I think removing alignments would lessen this to a large degree.
Lastly, I personally do not like the new stat blocks for monsters with alignments removed. I understand and do not have a problem with WOTC removing alignments from prime material world races such as orcs, goblins, drow, etc. To me this makes sense. Some tribes of orcs will be brutal and savage and adhere to a chaotic evil way of life. While another tribe of orcs may not adhere to said philosophy just like human tribes have moral variation. Yet, cosmically evil creatures such as Demons, Devils, Yugoloth, Aberrations as well as more traditional monsters (many undead such as shadows, etc.) I think should have a respective evil alignment. I just purchased VGTR and it just makes no sense to me to have something listed as "FIEND" and tell all it does that is malefic but how dare you use the term evil. This is not to say that some Demon couldn't exist somewhere that broke away from her kin and decided to try and lead a path of redemption but that should be a rare enough exception that beings embodying moral philosophies (Celestials, Fiends, etc.) should be able to have an alignment listed.
Technically, if a Fiend or a Celestial changes Alignment, they become something else. A Celestial that becomes Evil becomes a Fiend or similar. Of course they break their own rule. Zariel, a Celestial and one of the very most powerful, is in the first plane of Hell now, supposedly still a Celestial in spite of being Lawful Evil.
<Insert clever signature here>
I feel that the alignment chart does a reasonable job, as there's not much that won't fit into it in one way or another. As there are certain things which have effects exclusively dependent on alignment, I think that it is beneficial to the game and is a layer of depth that, if removed, would only open a bigger can of worms from the nonsense it could inflict ("this blade is that of a radiant god, why is this devil using it? they shouldn't be able to! make it so devils cannot use it - oh, but what if it's a good devil... etc.")
It is also worth treating the alignment chart as an input for NPC's and an output for PCs. The DM decides what NPC's will do, using their alignment as part of that equation (along with every other factor). The DM also decides the players alignment based on their actions. This stops the players being restricted by their alignment, but also means that their actions have consequences on their characters, albeit fairly minor ones.
For alignments on stat blocks, this is for the general rule. A DM isn't confined to the rules, so making good devils and evil angels is not a problem. The alignment is never considered for balancing as it rarely has any impact on the rules.
As for the argument that alignment doesn't actually exist in real life - there are people who purposefully run over animals with their cars. If they see a cat - somebody's pet - on the road, they will swerve to hit it. If questioned they just say "I don't like cats". If you tell them that they are being horrible for doing this, they laugh. They're proud of it. These people categorically fall under "Evil", and that's real life.
With regards to animals, you can put the scale of good-neutral-evil in there easily: an animal lies at the side of the road. The good person stops and sees if it's alive. A neutral person drives past - most people are neutral - and an evil person runs it over to make sure it's dead.
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