Alrighty whooo.... So let's say I'm playing a Reborn Grave Domain Cleric because I like the idea of a god granting someone new life and powers so they can carry out the task of making sure life ends and continues when and as it should. I'm counted as an undead for rules. So what happens when I use Turn Undead or I use Eyes Of The Grave? Am I my own trigger for my effects?
Pragmatically, you should be excluded from your own class abilities that wouldn't normally include you, but the wording doesn't state that explicitly, so it's on the table.
So let's say I'm playing a Reborn Grave Domain Cleric because I like the idea of a god granting someone new life and powers so they can carry out the task of making sure life ends and continues when and as it should. I'm counted as an undead for rules.
Reborn are humanoid and either undead or constructs. Not sure why a deity that abhors undead and anything that corrupts the cycle of life and death would choose to have you reborn as undead instead of as construct. I get the "you are made into the very thing you and your maker despise because DRAMA" trope exists, but meh. :p
As written, you'd be affected. These are not spells with an area of effect you'd not be part of. As Memnosyne says though, talk to your DM. If DRAMA is the point though, I'd expect it to count.
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So let's say I'm playing a Reborn Grave Domain Cleric because I like the idea of a god granting someone new life and powers so they can carry out the task of making sure life ends and continues when and as it should. I'm counted as an undead for rules.
Reborn are humanoid and either undead or constructs. Not sure why a deity that abhors undead and anything that corrupts the cycle of life and death would choose to have you reborn as undead instead of as construct. I get the "you are made into the very thing you and your maker despise because DRAMA" trope exists, but meh. :p
As written, you'd be affected. These are not spells with an area of effect you'd not be part of. As Memnosyne says though, talk to your DM. If DRAMA is the point though, I'd expect it to count.
Okay so I can see how it would look like the character concept is drama but that wasn't fully my intention. In the Grave Domain it elaborates on how clerics of the domain not only make sure things meant to be dead stay dead, but that Grave Clerics also stave off death from those whose time hasn't fully come yet. My idea behind the character is that they were reanimated by their god who believed they still have work to do in life until it's time for them to finally rest.
Thematically the construct doesn't make sense to me for this character simply because the construct seems to be more along the lines of a Frankenstein, rather than someone brought back from the dead
So let's say I'm playing a Reborn Grave Domain Cleric because I like the idea of a god granting someone new life and powers so they can carry out the task of making sure life ends and continues when and as it should. I'm counted as an undead for rules.
Reborn are humanoid and either undead or constructs. Not sure why a deity that abhors undead and anything that corrupts the cycle of life and death would choose to have you reborn as undead instead of as construct. I get the "you are made into the very thing you and your maker despise because DRAMA" trope exists, but meh. :p
As written, you'd be affected. These are not spells with an area of effect you'd not be part of. As Memnosyne says though, talk to your DM. If DRAMA is the point though, I'd expect it to count.
Okay so I can see how it would look like the character concept is drama but that wasn't fully my intention. In the Grave Domain it elaborates on how clerics of the domain not only make sure things meant to be dead stay dead, but that Grave Clerics also stave off death from those whose time hasn't fully come yet. My idea behind the character is that they were reanimated by their god who believed they still have work to do in life until it's time for them to finally rest.
Thematically the construct doesn't make sense to me for this character simply because the construct seems to be more along the lines of a Frankenstein, rather than someone brought back from the dead
I'd draw the line at 1-minute-after death Revivify, but you do you. A construct is a vessel for a soul, in this case. That's pretty broad. Golem, stitched-together corpse parts, vat-grown body. duplicate/clone repository, mirror image brought to life, possessed meatsuit, animated armor, hand-carved wooden puppet, and so on. If guarding the border between life and death is a core aspect of this character, my first priority would be to come up with a backstory that explains how putting a soul in a vessel could happen without being necromantic in nature. But again, you do you. It's your character, not mine.
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By a strict reading of RAW, yes. You are subject to your own Turn Undead and Eyes of the Grave.
In practice it's a divide-by-zero error. Turning requires you to move as far as you can from the source of the Turn on your turn and prevents you from moving closer to the source of your fear, but when you, yourself are the source of the Turn, how does that resolve? The rules break down and stop making sense when one considers the Turn-er and the Turn-ee to be the same entity. Turning requires those two to be different things in order to work and make sense, so the DM is going to have to make a table ruling regardless. Considering this undead is constantly filled with the divine power they're using to turn other undead...well. I'd argue for exposure therapy.
Eyes is easier. Flip Eyes, look at your hand, and know with divine certainty that yep - you're still undead. Whoo.
Apparently the official release of the Gothic lineages in VRGtL does away with the dual creature types - Reborn are simply Humanoid, not Undead or Construct.
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I am this close to just homebrewing in Mystic Influences in my next campaign and assigning a second creature type to any PC that merits one. it's a good idea that Wizards keeps getting wrong for the stupidest ******* reasons, I'm sick of them screwing the pooch on this one, and by gorram gum I will do it my own ass self if I bloody have to.
Apparently the official release of the Gothic lineages in VRGtL does away with the dual creature types - Reborn are simply Humanoid, not Undead or Construct.
Yeah, a bunch of info is up on youtube with WOTC's permission, so I assume we're allowed to talk about it here.
I haven't been able to pick up enough detail to say for certain what happens if you try to apply Reborn to a playable non-humanoid, but some of the released rules are already broken - there's an ability the DM can give you that generates reach only after you've checked for the target being in range, so you can't actually hit things farther away with it - so I'm guessing they didn't think through corner cases and either blanket banned non-humanoids from being Reborn or blanket allowed it and your type just get coerced to humanoid.
On the other hand, apparently Dhampir are fixed to no longer bite with Con + Str, so some attention to rules was paid!
I am this close to just homebrewing in Mystic Influences in my next campaign and assigning a second creature type to any PC that merits one. it's a good idea that Wizards keeps getting wrong for the stupidest ****ing reasons, I'm sick of them screwing the pooch on this one, and by gorram gum I will do it my own ass self if I bloody have to.
Just do it. No need to blow a gasket, just go right ahead. WotC apparently feels it's necessary to err on the side of caution for some to me pretty straightfprward things, but they're not going to chopper in some grung wetwork specialists to remove you and anyone else using your daring homebrew from your mortal coil.
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I know. It's just so frustrating that Wizards keeps ******* up and I keep having to fix it. Dual creature types is a cool freaking idea. It's the sort of thing there should be more of in the game, not less. It would make Influenced PCs more interesting whilst also allowing the regular ol' traditional D&D species to have an edge in that they aren't targetable by all the weird shit an Influenced character is. And just think of how much more interesting shit like Fey-Touched would be if it said "You creature type counts as fey for spells or effects that interact with fey" - the magic has infused you enough that you're not quite properly mortal anymore and can be affected by magics meant to deal with planar horrors.
But naaaaaw. Wizards is all "Oh, some people were confused so let's axe it completely, because nobody can ever be subjected to a learning curve. Not in OUR tabletop game aimed at years-long campaigns encouraging the growth of both characters and players."
Fair enough, but a couple dual-type lineages alone wouldn't cut the mustard for such a cool idea, no? You'd likely want to homebrew it into more mechanics anyway, like Fey Touched. WotC is always going to undersell some of their ideas, if not outright drop them. Some ideas never come to them in the first place. Bit of a shame, but nothing we can't fix as we see fit - and have done since even before D&D became a WotC property.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Apparently the official release of the Gothic lineages in VRGtL does away with the dual creature types - Reborn are simply Humanoid, not Undead or Construct.
WOTC had to do this. Because when the person that designed these new whatever they are, that designer did not bother to read about the Grave Cleric. If there is a Grave Cleric in the party, that Cleric is mandated to kill on sight, or actually on sense, ALL Undead, hence why these "cool new things" don't work in the D&D setting.
So now, the undead are not "really undead", and voila, problem solved.
Apparently the official release of the Gothic lineages in VRGtL does away with the dual creature types - Reborn are simply Humanoid, not Undead or Construct.
WOTC had to do this. Because when the person that designed these new whatever they are, that designer did not bother to read about the Grave Cleric. If there is a Grave Cleric in the party, that Cleric is mandated to kill on sight, or actually on sense, ALL Undead, hence why these "cool new things" don't work in the D&D setting.
So now, the undead are not "really undead", and voila, problem solved.
Like a character with say, a hatred of goblins having a 'mandate' for killing them? Redemption paladins having a 'mandate' to neutralize their murderhobo co-travellers? Moon druids having a 'mandate' to bite off the heads of anyone not respecting the pristine wildlands enough? What if a Grave cleric gets teamed up with a Necromancer wizard?
No offense, but this is a nonsense argument. This 'problem' is nothing new. Moreover, whether actually undead or not Reborn likely go against a Grave cleric's sensibilities anyway.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Apparently the official release of the Gothic lineages in VRGtL does away with the dual creature types - Reborn are simply Humanoid, not Undead or Construct.
WOTC had to do this. Because when the person that designed these new whatever they are, that designer did not bother to read about the Grave Cleric. If there is a Grave Cleric in the party, that Cleric is mandated to kill on sight, or actually on sense, ALL Undead, hence why these "cool new things" don't work in the D&D setting.
So now, the undead are not "really undead", and voila, problem solved.
Like a character with say, a hatred of goblins having a 'mandate' for killing them? Redemption paladins having a 'mandate' to neutralize their murderhobo co-travellers? Moon druids having a 'mandate' to bite off the heads of anyone not respecting the pristine wildlands enough? What if a Grave cleric gets teamed up with a Necromancer wizard?
No offense, but this is a nonsense argument. This 'problem' is nothing new. Moreover, whether actually undead or not Reborn likely go against a Grave cleric's sensibilities anyway.
I am not sure what part of my statement you disagree with. The write up of a Grave Cleric is clear. This is not some char backstory issue. It says specifically in the XGTE "these clerics seek to destroy the undead" (page 19) and "sense the presence of the undead, whose existence is an insult to the natural cycle of life." (page 20).
So any player whose char is a Grave Cleric cannot abide party members that are Undead. Hence WOTC screwed up, and had to make changes to that new material.
Apparently the official release of the Gothic lineages in VRGtL does away with the dual creature types - Reborn are simply Humanoid, not Undead or Construct.
WOTC had to do this. Because when the person that designed these new whatever they are, that designer did not bother to read about the Grave Cleric. If there is a Grave Cleric in the party, that Cleric is mandated to kill on sight, or actually on sense, ALL Undead, hence why these "cool new things" don't work in the D&D setting.
So now, the undead are not "really undead", and voila, problem solved.
Like a character with say, a hatred of goblins having a 'mandate' for killing them? Redemption paladins having a 'mandate' to neutralize their murderhobo co-travellers? Moon druids having a 'mandate' to bite off the heads of anyone not respecting the pristine wildlands enough? What if a Grave cleric gets teamed up with a Necromancer wizard?
No offense, but this is a nonsense argument. This 'problem' is nothing new. Moreover, whether actually undead or not Reborn likely go against a Grave cleric's sensibilities anyway.
I am not sure what part of my statement you disagree with. The write up of a Grave Cleric is clear. This is not some char backstory issue. It says specifically in the XGTE "these clerics seek to destroy the undead" (page 19) and "sense the presence of the undead, whose existence is an insult to the natural cycle of life." (page 20).
So any player whose char is a Grave Cleric cannot abide party members that are Undead. Hence WOTC screwed up, and had to make changes to that new material.
And yeah, a Grave Cleric and a Necromancer are going to have huge problems. WOTC did not think a lot of this through.
Apparently the official release of the Gothic lineages in VRGtL does away with the dual creature types - Reborn are simply Humanoid, not Undead or Construct.
WOTC had to do this. Because when the person that designed these new whatever they are, that designer did not bother to read about the Grave Cleric. If there is a Grave Cleric in the party, that Cleric is mandated to kill on sight, or actually on sense, ALL Undead, hence why these "cool new things" don't work in the D&D setting.
So now, the undead are not "really undead", and voila, problem solved.
Like a character with say, a hatred of goblins having a 'mandate' for killing them? Redemption paladins having a 'mandate' to neutralize their murderhobo co-travellers? Moon druids having a 'mandate' to bite off the heads of anyone not respecting the pristine wildlands enough? What if a Grave cleric gets teamed up with a Necromancer wizard?
No offense, but this is a nonsense argument. This 'problem' is nothing new. Moreover, whether actually undead or not Reborn likely go against a Grave cleric's sensibilities anyway.
I am not sure what part of my statement you disagree with. The write up of a Grave Cleric is clear. This is not some char backstory issue. It says specifically in the XGTE "these clerics seek to destroy the undead" (page 19) and "sense the presence of the undead, whose existence is an insult to the natural cycle of life." (page 20).
So any player whose char is a Grave Cleric cannot abide party members that are Undead. Hence WOTC screwed up, and had to make changes to that new material.
There's lots of potential reasons one character might not abide another. Warforged characters seem unlikely to abide yours, apparently. That's for the group to deal with.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I know. It's just so frustrating that Wizards keeps ****ing up and I keep having to fix it. Dual creature types is a cool freaking idea. It's the sort of thing there should be more of in the game, not less. It would make Influenced PCs more interesting whilst also allowing the regular ol' traditional D&D species to have an edge in that they aren't targetable by all the weird shit an Influenced character is. And just think of how much more interesting shit like Fey-Touched would be if it said "You creature type counts as fey for spells or effects that interact with fey" - the magic has infused you enough that you're not quite properly mortal anymore and can be affected by magics meant to deal with planar horrors.
But naaaaaw. Wizards is all "Oh, some people were confused so let's axe it completely, because nobody can ever be subjected to a learning curve. Not in OUR tabletop game aimed at years-long campaigns encouraging the growth of both characters and players."
It wasn't so much a learning curve as the mixed races were so cripplingly bad due to the mixed typing you had to either really love a badly broken mechanic (Dhampir bites, probably), or just commit to being the biggest combat liability your adventuring team has.
It's fine for those races to exist, but nothing that cripplingly weak should be presented to PCs as legitimate adventuring options, or they will choose them. I suppose you could cover them in warning signs instead, but they tried that with Volo's, and it didn't stop anybody.
That tends to happen 'round here, especially with anything related to the gradual species redux Wizards is sortakinna half-assed rolling out. It's fine. The mechanical question has been answered (I hope? Anything else you wanted to know?), so now people are just discussing related topics.
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Alrighty whooo.... So let's say I'm playing a Reborn Grave Domain Cleric because I like the idea of a god granting someone new life and powers so they can carry out the task of making sure life ends and continues when and as it should. I'm counted as an undead for rules. So what happens when I use Turn Undead or I use Eyes Of The Grave? Am I my own trigger for my effects?
That's a "Talk to your DM" issue.
Pragmatically, you should be excluded from your own class abilities that wouldn't normally include you, but the wording doesn't state that explicitly, so it's on the table.
Reborn are humanoid and either undead or constructs. Not sure why a deity that abhors undead and anything that corrupts the cycle of life and death would choose to have you reborn as undead instead of as construct. I get the "you are made into the very thing you and your maker despise because DRAMA" trope exists, but meh. :p
As written, you'd be affected. These are not spells with an area of effect you'd not be part of. As Memnosyne says though, talk to your DM. If DRAMA is the point though, I'd expect it to count.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Okay so I can see how it would look like the character concept is drama but that wasn't fully my intention. In the Grave Domain it elaborates on how clerics of the domain not only make sure things meant to be dead stay dead, but that Grave Clerics also stave off death from those whose time hasn't fully come yet. My idea behind the character is that they were reanimated by their god who believed they still have work to do in life until it's time for them to finally rest.
Thematically the construct doesn't make sense to me for this character simply because the construct seems to be more along the lines of a Frankenstein, rather than someone brought back from the dead
I'd draw the line at 1-minute-after death Revivify, but you do you. A construct is a vessel for a soul, in this case. That's pretty broad. Golem, stitched-together corpse parts, vat-grown body. duplicate/clone repository, mirror image brought to life, possessed meatsuit, animated armor, hand-carved wooden puppet, and so on. If guarding the border between life and death is a core aspect of this character, my first priority would be to come up with a backstory that explains how putting a soul in a vessel could happen without being necromantic in nature. But again, you do you. It's your character, not mine.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
By a strict reading of RAW, yes. You are subject to your own Turn Undead and Eyes of the Grave.
In practice it's a divide-by-zero error. Turning requires you to move as far as you can from the source of the Turn on your turn and prevents you from moving closer to the source of your fear, but when you, yourself are the source of the Turn, how does that resolve? The rules break down and stop making sense when one considers the Turn-er and the Turn-ee to be the same entity. Turning requires those two to be different things in order to work and make sense, so the DM is going to have to make a table ruling regardless. Considering this undead is constantly filled with the divine power they're using to turn other undead...well. I'd argue for exposure therapy.
Eyes is easier. Flip Eyes, look at your hand, and know with divine certainty that yep - you're still undead. Whoo.
Please do not contact or message me.
Apparently the official release of the Gothic lineages in VRGtL does away with the dual creature types - Reborn are simply Humanoid, not Undead or Construct.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
God DAMNIT Wizards.
I am this close to just homebrewing in Mystic Influences in my next campaign and assigning a second creature type to any PC that merits one. it's a good idea that Wizards keeps getting wrong for the stupidest ******* reasons, I'm sick of them screwing the pooch on this one, and by gorram gum I will do it my own ass self if I bloody have to.
Please do not contact or message me.
Yeah, a bunch of info is up on youtube with WOTC's permission, so I assume we're allowed to talk about it here.
I haven't been able to pick up enough detail to say for certain what happens if you try to apply Reborn to a playable non-humanoid, but some of the released rules are already broken - there's an ability the DM can give you that generates reach only after you've checked for the target being in range, so you can't actually hit things farther away with it - so I'm guessing they didn't think through corner cases and either blanket banned non-humanoids from being Reborn or blanket allowed it and your type just get coerced to humanoid.
On the other hand, apparently Dhampir are fixed to no longer bite with Con + Str, so some attention to rules was paid!
Just do it. No need to blow a gasket, just go right ahead. WotC apparently feels it's necessary to err on the side of caution for some to me pretty straightfprward things, but they're not going to chopper in some grung wetwork specialists to remove you and anyone else using your daring homebrew from your mortal coil.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I know. It's just so frustrating that Wizards keeps ******* up and I keep having to fix it. Dual creature types is a cool freaking idea. It's the sort of thing there should be more of in the game, not less. It would make Influenced PCs more interesting whilst also allowing the regular ol' traditional D&D species to have an edge in that they aren't targetable by all the weird shit an Influenced character is. And just think of how much more interesting shit like Fey-Touched would be if it said "You creature type counts as fey for spells or effects that interact with fey" - the magic has infused you enough that you're not quite properly mortal anymore and can be affected by magics meant to deal with planar horrors.
But naaaaaw. Wizards is all "Oh, some people were confused so let's axe it completely, because nobody can ever be subjected to a learning curve. Not in OUR tabletop game aimed at years-long campaigns encouraging the growth of both characters and players."
Please do not contact or message me.
Fair enough, but a couple dual-type lineages alone wouldn't cut the mustard for such a cool idea, no? You'd likely want to homebrew it into more mechanics anyway, like Fey Touched. WotC is always going to undersell some of their ideas, if not outright drop them. Some ideas never come to them in the first place. Bit of a shame, but nothing we can't fix as we see fit - and have done since even before D&D became a WotC property.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
WOTC had to do this. Because when the person that designed these new whatever they are, that designer did not bother to read about the Grave Cleric. If there is a Grave Cleric in the party, that Cleric is mandated to kill on sight, or actually on sense, ALL Undead, hence why these "cool new things" don't work in the D&D setting.
So now, the undead are not "really undead", and voila, problem solved.
Like a character with say, a hatred of goblins having a 'mandate' for killing them? Redemption paladins having a 'mandate' to neutralize their murderhobo co-travellers? Moon druids having a 'mandate' to bite off the heads of anyone not respecting the pristine wildlands enough? What if a Grave cleric gets teamed up with a Necromancer wizard?
No offense, but this is a nonsense argument. This 'problem' is nothing new. Moreover, whether actually undead or not Reborn likely go against a Grave cleric's sensibilities anyway.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I am not sure what part of my statement you disagree with. The write up of a Grave Cleric is clear. This is not some char backstory issue. It says specifically in the XGTE "these clerics seek to destroy the undead" (page 19) and "sense the presence of the undead, whose existence is an insult to the natural cycle of life." (page 20).
So any player whose char is a Grave Cleric cannot abide party members that are Undead. Hence WOTC screwed up, and had to make changes to that new material.
And yeah, a Grave Cleric and a Necromancer are going to have huge problems. WOTC did not think a lot of this through.
There's lots of potential reasons one character might not abide another. Warforged characters seem unlikely to abide yours, apparently. That's for the group to deal with.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
It wasn't so much a learning curve as the mixed races were so cripplingly bad due to the mixed typing you had to either really love a badly broken mechanic (Dhampir bites, probably), or just commit to being the biggest combat liability your adventuring team has.
It's fine for those races to exist, but nothing that cripplingly weak should be presented to PCs as legitimate adventuring options, or they will choose them. I suppose you could cover them in warning signs instead, but they tried that with Volo's, and it didn't stop anybody.
The conversation on this thread has evolved more than what I originally thought it would be
That tends to happen 'round here, especially with anything related to the gradual species redux Wizards is sortakinna half-assed rolling out. It's fine. The mechanical question has been answered (I hope? Anything else you wanted to know?), so now people are just discussing related topics.
Please do not contact or message me.