One of the things about 5E that's always bugged me is that the mechanics weigh too heavily in favor of the players.
So, as a way to verify this, I was thinking of creating a one off that would pit 5 5E players (16-18th level) against a 1E/2E Arch Mage (probably 20th level of more)
The circumstances would revolve around the players needing to get an artifact to stop the tarrasque, and the last known location of said artifact would be in the castle of a great magic user from before the new era).If they got far enough into the tower, they would transport to a 1E dimension - (Via a warped version of dream of the blue veil spell.) where they would confront the Arch Mage.
Would this result in a complete slaughter /TPK of the players? Or will they breeze through it?
No way of knowing unless you post the stats you have in mind.
Well, the party would be made up of 1 cleric, one wizard, one paladin, one rogue, and one warlock of 18th level. The 1E arch mage would be 25th level. The players would have a number and type of magic items appropriate for their level.
The 1E arch mage would cast spells based on 1E rules, the players based on 5E rules.
Saves would be based on 1E tables. Attacks based on THAC0.
No way of knowing unless you post the stats you have in mind.
Well, the party would be made up of 1 cleric, one wizard, one paladin, one rogue, and one warlock of 18th level. The 1E arch mage would be 25th level. The players would have a number and type of magic items appropriate for their level.
The 1E arch mage would cast spells based on 1E rules, the players based on 5E rules.
Saves would be based on 1E tables. Attacks based on THAC0.
What other stats are needed?
The systems don't work together like that. If saves are based on 1e tables and attacks are based on THAC0, you're just playing 1e. The players aren't playing by 5e rules at all.
Just pick 5e or 1e. They're fundamentally incompatible. If you want a more powerful enemy, give it the abilities it needs to have the effect you want.
What happens when the 5e wizard tries to counterspell the 1e wizard? Because that worked differently. And if 5e can’t, then1e casts time stop (no save in 1e) and wins. And since 1e doesn’t have to worry about concentration, they are probably flying with improved invisibility on. Maybe throw in protection from normal missles, maybe shield up (which lasted 5 rounds/level) Or actually that would be low level. At high level prismatic sphere, since 1e magic users could have more than 1 9th level spell per day. So prismatic sphere, stand in there while these silly 5e characters don’t know how to dismantle it. Time stop. Meteor swarm. Then throw in a delayed blast fireball or two, maybe a cone of cold in case someone is fire resistant. 5e won’t know what hit them.
THAC0 aside, how do you translate the present armor class system to a system that had AC that could go below zero?
This seems some sort of "let me show you what a tough game this used to be" exercise ... but what's actually happening is you have characters from one rule systems being plopped into another rule system with no real clear translation in some of the areas where things just work differently, a catalog of which whose surface has only been barely scratched. If you want to show a high power fight in AD&D just have the players play a AD&D one shot. This seems like two languages talking past each other (likely violently) than any effort to translate the different effects.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Good point, but casting is done is segments, which are the length of a 5e round, though most spells have a casting time longer than one segment. But again, an archmage has probably prepared, and has a thing or two they've put up (like that prismatic sphere) with permanency cast on them.
Another real disadvantage will be the 1e wizard rolling an unmodified d6 for initiative. Of course, he'll get to (have to) roll it every round.
If fighting the Tarrasque isn't tough enough, something is terribly wrong. Given all the technical differences between the various editions, it's not worth it for a one shot. Thac0 did not appear in 1st Edition Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, for example. That was 2rd Edition.
Don't mix systems, they're not compatible and it'll be a headache-inducingly horrible affair.
Make a 20th level Wizard, give him legendary actions and decent magic items. Remember as DM you can waive time, prep and component costs. So, use spell glyphs, symbol glyphs and minions to wear them down. The 9th level spell Invulnerability to make the wizard immune to damage, while he casts things like Disintegrate, Finger of Death, etc. He could have a Simulacrum with him, too. And even multiple minions made by Create Magen. A Contingency in place. Clone ready in case he fails.
You're not limited to spells and abilities the PC wizards has, so you could create Lair Actions from glyphs, traps, and magical effects of your own creation.
This idea is used in Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage and the wizard Halaster Blackcloak where the maze is used to wear the party down before facing him and he has legendary actions and lair actions, on top of being a 20th level wizard with magic items. So it's not like there's no precedent. Oh and being CR23 he's designed to be a deadly threat against a party of 4 20th level characters. So that might give an idea of balance.
I really, really fail to see why you'd think you have to use a 1e mage to make a challenge. o.O
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I guess I need to think about this more, but there really is something to fear about being hit with a 25d6 fireball and then a 25d6 lightning bolt, when all the players will have is an 8d6 fireball/lightning bolt. (unless they up cast). Also, I want them to experience save or die spells, and no death saves or short rests.
The mechanics are such, that 5E players can massacre anything that isn't invincible. Just buffing a 5E big bad might add 1 or two turns to the combat. I have found the 5E CR ratings to be unreliable.
A 1E big bad didn't need minions to tpk a party. I remember being the (skin of my teeth) sole survivor after my party encountered Lolth. That was an edge of your seat feeling that I would love to bring to a 5E table.
But in the end, I think you're all correct about the issues of mixing systems.
I guess I need to think about this more, but there really is something to fear about being hit with a 25d6 fireball and then a 25d6 lightning bolt, when all the players will have is an 8d6 fireball/lightning bolt. (unless they up cast). Also, I want them to experience save or die spells, and no death saves or short rests.
The mechanics are such, that 5E players can massacre anything that isn't invincible. Just buffing a 5E big bad might add 1 or two turns to the combat. I have found the 5E CR ratings to be unreliable.
A 1E big bad didn't need minions to tpk a party. I remember being the (skin of my teeth) sole survivor after my party encountered Lolth. That was an edge of your seat feeling that I would love to bring to a 5E table.
But in the end, I think you're all correct about the issues of mixing systems.
5E "monsters", even those that are humanoids with class abilities, don't have to be created the same way as PCs. In fact, you're arguably much better off not doing that. Just build a monster statblock and run with that. Want to give it a couple of 25d6 damage spells? Just do so. Player characters have to follow the rules in 5E, their opponents don't.
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Save or die, save until you die, and just plain die spells were largely removed for the game because they aren't any fun. At least I don't think so. Why bother to show up if you have no chance to play?
Meteor Swarm does 40d6. Invulnerability gives your Wizard 10 minutes of being immune to all damage. Have your Wizard throw in a Meteor Swarm on top of themself. You can give a Wizard lair actions, and legendary stuff to give them extra chances to make saves or make more attacks.
Lolth turned into a deity and you can't fight her anymore. Tiamat did not. Add in her swarm of attendants and you're pretty sure to kill the party if that's what you really want.
The most difficult art is making the characters think they will die without killing them. It's super easy for a DM to kill characters.
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One of the things about 5E that's always bugged me is that the mechanics weigh too heavily in favor of the players.
So, as a way to verify this, I was thinking of creating a one off that would pit 5 5E players (16-18th level) against a 1E/2E Arch Mage (probably 20th level of more)
The circumstances would revolve around the players needing to get an artifact to stop the tarrasque, and the last known location of said artifact would be in the castle of a great magic user from before the new era).If they got far enough into the tower, they would transport to a 1E dimension - (Via a warped version of dream of the blue veil spell.) where they would confront the Arch Mage.
Would this result in a complete slaughter /TPK of the players? Or will they breeze through it?
How should I make it more/less challenging?
No way of knowing unless you post the stats you have in mind.<Insert clever signature here>
Well, the party would be made up of 1 cleric, one wizard, one paladin, one rogue, and one warlock of 18th level. The 1E arch mage would be 25th level. The players would have a number and type of magic items appropriate for their level.
The 1E arch mage would cast spells based on 1E rules, the players based on 5E rules.
Saves would be based on 1E tables. Attacks based on THAC0.
What other stats are needed?
The systems don't work together like that. If saves are based on 1e tables and attacks are based on THAC0, you're just playing 1e. The players aren't playing by 5e rules at all.
Just pick 5e or 1e. They're fundamentally incompatible. If you want a more powerful enemy, give it the abilities it needs to have the effect you want.
What happens when the 5e wizard tries to counterspell the 1e wizard? Because that worked differently. And if 5e can’t, then1e casts time stop (no save in 1e) and wins.
And since 1e doesn’t have to worry about concentration, they are probably flying with improved invisibility on. Maybe throw in protection from normal missles, maybe shield up (which lasted 5 rounds/level) Or actually that would be low level. At high level prismatic sphere, since 1e magic users could have more than 1 9th level spell per day. So prismatic sphere, stand in there while these silly 5e characters don’t know how to dismantle it. Time stop. Meteor swarm. Then throw in a delayed blast fireball or two, maybe a cone of cold in case someone is fire resistant. 5e won’t know what hit them.
1e rounds are 1 minute long. That’s 10 5e rounds. The 1e Arch Mage will still be trying to get his first spell off before he dies.
THAC0 aside, how do you translate the present armor class system to a system that had AC that could go below zero?
This seems some sort of "let me show you what a tough game this used to be" exercise ... but what's actually happening is you have characters from one rule systems being plopped into another rule system with no real clear translation in some of the areas where things just work differently, a catalog of which whose surface has only been barely scratched. If you want to show a high power fight in AD&D just have the players play a AD&D one shot. This seems like two languages talking past each other (likely violently) than any effort to translate the different effects.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Good point, but casting is done is segments, which are the length of a 5e round, though most spells have a casting time longer than one segment. But again, an archmage has probably prepared, and has a thing or two they've put up (like that prismatic sphere) with permanency cast on them.
Another real disadvantage will be the 1e wizard rolling an unmodified d6 for initiative. Of course, he'll get to (have to) roll it every round.
If fighting the Tarrasque isn't tough enough, something is terribly wrong. Given all the technical differences between the various editions, it's not worth it for a one shot. Thac0 did not appear in 1st Edition Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, for example. That was 2rd Edition.
<Insert clever signature here>
Don't mix systems, they're not compatible and it'll be a headache-inducingly horrible affair.
Make a 20th level Wizard, give him legendary actions and decent magic items. Remember as DM you can waive time, prep and component costs. So, use spell glyphs, symbol glyphs and minions to wear them down. The 9th level spell Invulnerability to make the wizard immune to damage, while he casts things like Disintegrate, Finger of Death, etc. He could have a Simulacrum with him, too. And even multiple minions made by Create Magen. A Contingency in place. Clone ready in case he fails.
You're not limited to spells and abilities the PC wizards has, so you could create Lair Actions from glyphs, traps, and magical effects of your own creation.
This idea is used in Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage and the wizard Halaster Blackcloak where the maze is used to wear the party down before facing him and he has legendary actions and lair actions, on top of being a 20th level wizard with magic items. So it's not like there's no precedent. Oh and being CR23 he's designed to be a deadly threat against a party of 4 20th level characters. So that might give an idea of balance.
I really, really fail to see why you'd think you have to use a 1e mage to make a challenge. o.O
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Thanks Everyone, I appreciate your feedback
I guess I need to think about this more, but there really is something to fear about being hit with a 25d6 fireball and then a 25d6 lightning bolt, when all the players will have is an 8d6 fireball/lightning bolt. (unless they up cast). Also, I want them to experience save or die spells, and no death saves or short rests.
The mechanics are such, that 5E players can massacre anything that isn't invincible. Just buffing a 5E big bad might add 1 or two turns to the combat. I have found the 5E CR ratings to be unreliable.
A 1E big bad didn't need minions to tpk a party. I remember being the (skin of my teeth) sole survivor after my party encountered Lolth. That was an edge of your seat feeling that I would love to bring to a 5E table.
But in the end, I think you're all correct about the issues of mixing systems.
5E "monsters", even those that are humanoids with class abilities, don't have to be created the same way as PCs. In fact, you're arguably much better off not doing that. Just build a monster statblock and run with that. Want to give it a couple of 25d6 damage spells? Just do so. Player characters have to follow the rules in 5E, their opponents don't.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Save or die, save until you die, and just plain die spells were largely removed for the game because they aren't any fun. At least I don't think so. Why bother to show up if you have no chance to play?
Meteor Swarm does 40d6. Invulnerability gives your Wizard 10 minutes of being immune to all damage. Have your Wizard throw in a Meteor Swarm on top of themself. You can give a Wizard lair actions, and legendary stuff to give them extra chances to make saves or make more attacks.
Lolth turned into a deity and you can't fight her anymore. Tiamat did not. Add in her swarm of attendants and you're pretty sure to kill the party if that's what you really want.
The most difficult art is making the characters think they will die without killing them. It's super easy for a DM to kill characters.
<Insert clever signature here>