Other than the Force being something other than magic and thus not dispel-able or subject to anti-magic effects....
The force is absolutely magic. It's divine magic (the Jedi are called a religion in multiple places) so it would be preferable if you could do it with a paladin subclass, but it's definitely magic.
Midichlorians are magical? Having doctrine does not equal religion and religion does not equal actual cosmic power being de facto derived from the faith (as opposed to from mundane sources).
Midichlorians are magical? Having doctrine does not equal religion and religion does not equal actual cosmic power being de facto derived from the faith (as opposed to from mundane sources).
They have an (impersonal) god, devil, and prophesy of a savior, and we have examples of people being chided for lack of faith, and where that lack of faith was directly blamed for failure to make use of the force. It's really not even a close call.
Other than the Force being something other than magic and thus not dispel-able or subject to anti-magic effects....
The force is absolutely magic. It's divine magic (the Jedi are called a religion in multiple places) so it would be preferable if you could do it with a paladin subclass, but it's definitely magic.
Midichlorians are magical? Having doctrine does not equal religion and religion does not equal actual cosmic power being de facto derived from the faith (as opposed to from mundane sources).
Midichlorians are as magical as the Weave, or using the other 90% of your brain, or speaking special words and waving a stick through the air.
So if you want to play a Jedi that exists in a world where magic also works, fights dragons and other mythical beasts, they should have to go play some other system, even though dragons and other mythical beasts are just as alien to Star Wars as Jedi are to D&D. This does not mean they are de facto completely incompatible.
There are a bunch of ways to do a jedi-approximate character, the problem is just that D&D is a class system and there isn't a class with the exact right combination of features so you'll likely need multiclass shenanigans. The easiest is probably a bladesinger wizard (no need for subtle spell; jedi most certainly use verbal and somatic components).
I mean, you don't have to multi-class to do it, you just have to accept that you're going to get an approximation of a jedi as opposed to perfection.
It's also worth noting on the subject of Jedi that most depictions of them in EU fiction have shown that they tend to vary. Like, a Lot with different ones tending to do better at some things then others (IE seeing the future, Light saber combat, throwing crap around, mind tricks...).
I think I am going to hold off on working on the Psion (if I work on it at all) till after the new books are out. Looks like class power levels are going to shift around and I might as well wait and see where everything lands.
Thanks everyone!
The other thing is to see what the psi-adjacent classes turn out like, and how much reflavoring you'd need for some of them. The GOOlock already looks close - make a version of the patron that isn't some ancient abomination - for example, in Eberron, a Kalashtar could technically have the entity they are descended from as the source of their power, make the Tome of Shadows some kind of manifested psi-crystal that already somewhat exists in the setting, (if the player wants to go that route), and you are already looking pretty close. Psychic damage from Eldritch Blast (reflavor the force option as a telekinetic thrust when that gets used), no components for two schools of magic, and it's closer to a psionic character than anything from 5th edition already.
What's the new Soulknife and Psi-Warrior going to be like? And how close to the fantasy are they going to feel?
Psi Warrior looks like it's going to be 95% identical to its Tasha's incarnation.
I wrote my bit before seeing that there were few changes to the class - supposedly just something to make it a harder choice as to whether or not you want to multiclass.
Midichlorians are magical? Having doctrine does not equal religion and religion does not equal actual cosmic power being de facto derived from the faith (as opposed to from mundane sources).
They have an (impersonal) god, devil, and prophesy of a savior, and we have examples of people being chided for lack of faith, and where that lack of faith was directly blamed for failure to make use of the force. It's really not even a close call.
Other than the Force being something other than magic and thus not dispel-able or subject to anti-magic effects....
The force is absolutely magic. It's divine magic (the Jedi are called a religion in multiple places) so it would be preferable if you could do it with a paladin subclass, but it's definitely magic.
Midichlorians are magical? Having doctrine does not equal religion and religion does not equal actual cosmic power being de facto derived from the faith (as opposed to from mundane sources).
Midichlorians are as magical as the Weave, or using the other 90% of your brain, or speaking special words and waving a stick through the air.
So any setting where there is any sort of predestination, including self fulfilling prophecies (which I would argue is the case in Star Wars, although if you want to discuss that, we should do so in the off topic forum) is magic?
And Star Trek's warp drive, any similar science fiction technology,... also magic? Or is it just fictional biological things that are magical? Everything in Marvel and DC is magical, despite those settings actually having magic systems that define them otherwise, and despite there being actual 'Gods,' whose actual status as deities depends on character giving the opinion, who is writing that story and in the case of DC, day of the week?
That sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic does not make it actually magic, any more than the fact that electronics and human bodies both functioning on some level of passing of electrical current means an EMP affects them equally. Or that humans can get computer viruses. Or that computers can catch a cold or some other human virus. Burning oil does 5 damage. A Produce Flame spell does equivalent (4.5 damage, average), or more, if cast at higher levels than 4th. However, one works in an anti-magic shield and the other does not, regardless of whether some observer calls one, both, or neither magical and regardless of whether oil burns at all because there is some fire deity in existence willing it so.
Midichlorians are magical? Having doctrine does not equal religion and religion does not equal actual cosmic power being de facto derived from the faith (as opposed to from mundane sources).
They have an (impersonal) god, devil, and prophesy of a savior, and we have examples of people being chided for lack of faith, and where that lack of faith was directly blamed for failure to make use of the force. It's really not even a close call.
Other than the Force being something other than magic and thus not dispel-able or subject to anti-magic effects....
The force is absolutely magic. It's divine magic (the Jedi are called a religion in multiple places) so it would be preferable if you could do it with a paladin subclass, but it's definitely magic.
Midichlorians are magical? Having doctrine does not equal religion and religion does not equal actual cosmic power being de facto derived from the faith (as opposed to from mundane sources).
Midichlorians are as magical as the Weave, or using the other 90% of your brain, or speaking special words and waving a stick through the air.
So any setting where there is any sort of predestination, including self fulfilling prophecies (which I would argue is the case in Star Wars, although if you want to discuss that, we should do so in the off topic forum) is magic?
Functionally, yes. Getting a sneak peak at the future is one of the oldest archetypes of magic, and while a sci-fi show might try to toss in something about "quantum" to make it fit the setting, that kind of "quantum" is the same as magic, just wearing a lab coat and hoping no one looks at it too closely.
And Star Trek's warp drive, any similar science fiction technology,... also magic? Or is it just fictional biological things that are magical? Everything in Marvel and DC is magical, despite those settings actually having magic systems that define them otherwise, and despite there being actual 'Gods,' whose actual status as deities depends on character giving the opinion, who is writing that story and in the case of DC, day of the week?
I mean... really the answer is "yes" because at the end of the day fantasy and sci-fi are just subgenres of speculative fiction wearing different costumes. But you're also getting away from the topic at hand. We're not discussing mechanical devices here. You specifically asked about midichlorians being magical, and for all intents and purposes they are. They're little micro-organisms that simply by existing give beings the ability to move objects with their mind, influence the minds of others, blast lighting from their hands, etc. There's no attempt to ground any of this in science, their simple existence allows sentients to alter reality. That's magic, even if you get Jedi saying "it's not magic" and giving the whole "the Force surrounds us, it permeates us" speech. They're choosing to apply a different label to it, but as a trope it's a distinction without a difference.
Midichlorians are magical? Having doctrine does not equal religion and religion does not equal actual cosmic power being de facto derived from the faith (as opposed to from mundane sources).
They have an (impersonal) god, devil, and prophesy of a savior, and we have examples of people being chided for lack of faith, and where that lack of faith was directly blamed for failure to make use of the force. It's really not even a close call.
Other than the Force being something other than magic and thus not dispel-able or subject to anti-magic effects....
The force is absolutely magic. It's divine magic (the Jedi are called a religion in multiple places) so it would be preferable if you could do it with a paladin subclass, but it's definitely magic.
Midichlorians are magical? Having doctrine does not equal religion and religion does not equal actual cosmic power being de facto derived from the faith (as opposed to from mundane sources).
Midichlorians are as magical as the Weave, or using the other 90% of your brain, or speaking special words and waving a stick through the air.
So any setting where there is any sort of predestination, including self fulfilling prophecies (which I would argue is the case in Star Wars, although if you want to discuss that, we should do so in the off topic forum) is magic?
Functionally, yes. Getting a sneak peak at the future is one of the oldest archetypes of magic, and while a sci-fi show might try to toss in something about "quantum" to make it fit the setting, that kind of "quantum" is the same as magic, just wearing a lab coat and hoping no one looks at it too closely.
And Star Trek's warp drive, any similar science fiction technology,... also magic? Or is it just fictional biological things that are magical? Everything in Marvel and DC is magical, despite those settings actually having magic systems that define them otherwise, and despite there being actual 'Gods,' whose actual status as deities depends on character giving the opinion, who is writing that story and in the case of DC, day of the week?
I mean... really the answer is "yes" because at the end of the day fantasy and sci-fi are just subgenres of speculative fiction wearing different costumes. But you're also getting away from the topic at hand. We're not discussing mechanical devices here. You specifically asked about midichlorians being magical, and for all intents and purposes they are. They're little micro-organisms that simply by existing give beings the ability to move objects with their mind, influence the minds of others, blast lighting from their hands, etc. There's no attempt to ground any of this in science, their simple existence allows sentients to alter reality. That's magic, even if you get Jedi saying "it's not magic" and giving the whole "the Force surrounds us, it permeates us" speech. They're choosing to apply a different label to it, but as a trope it's a distinction without a difference.
You seem to be confusing appearances with reality. Do you believe that stage magicians in real life are really using magic? Do you believe that Penn and Teller's act would fail in an Anti-Magic field? There being predictable cause and effect does not equal 'magic.' It appears magical and is called magic but is not. Penn and Teller even break the code by showing how their 'magic' works.
And now you are insisting laser weapons and anti-matter rifles (which, again, have stats in the DMG and are not mechanical, or at least no more so than Warp Drive) would be shut down in an anti-magic shield. There is nothing in RAW that says so or even hints so. All matter is held together by atomic and subatomic forces. They surround and permeate us. Does an anti-magic field shut down reality?
So any setting where there is any sort of predestination, including self fulfilling prophecies (which I would argue is the case in Star Wars, although if you want to discuss that, we should do so in the off topic forum) is magic?
And Star Trek's warp drive, any similar science fiction technology,... also magic? Or is it just fictional biological things that are magical?
There are useful distinctions to be made between supertech and magic, but the Force is solidly on the side of magic. Some useful indicators of tech that the Force lacks include:
Device-based.
Morally indifferent.
Function is purely an issue of skill, not dependent on mental state or special traits of the operator.
The force is morally indifferent as it powers both the Jedi and the with. But then magic generally is morally indifferent. Of course so is tech - it’s the person using it that injects the morality.
Midichlorians are magical? Having doctrine does not equal religion and religion does not equal actual cosmic power being de facto derived from the faith (as opposed to from mundane sources).
They have an (impersonal) god, devil, and prophesy of a savior, and we have examples of people being chided for lack of faith, and where that lack of faith was directly blamed for failure to make use of the force. It's really not even a close call.
Midichlorians are as magical as the Weave, or using the other 90% of your brain, or speaking special words and waving a stick through the air.
I mean, you don't have to multi-class to do it, you just have to accept that you're going to get an approximation of a jedi as opposed to perfection.
It's also worth noting on the subject of Jedi that most depictions of them in EU fiction have shown that they tend to vary. Like, a Lot with different ones tending to do better at some things then others (IE seeing the future, Light saber combat, throwing crap around, mind tricks...).
The other thing is to see what the psi-adjacent classes turn out like, and how much reflavoring you'd need for some of them. The GOOlock already looks close - make a version of the patron that isn't some ancient abomination - for example, in Eberron, a Kalashtar could technically have the entity they are descended from as the source of their power, make the Tome of Shadows some kind of manifested psi-crystal that already somewhat exists in the setting, (if the player wants to go that route), and you are already looking pretty close. Psychic damage from Eldritch Blast (reflavor the force option as a telekinetic thrust when that gets used), no components for two schools of magic, and it's closer to a psionic character than anything from 5th edition already.
What's the new Soulknife and Psi-Warrior going to be like? And how close to the fantasy are they going to feel?
Psi Warrior looks like it's going to be 95% identical to its Tasha's incarnation.
I wrote my bit before seeing that there were few changes to the class - supposedly just something to make it a harder choice as to whether or not you want to multiclass.
So any setting where there is any sort of predestination, including self fulfilling prophecies (which I would argue is the case in Star Wars, although if you want to discuss that, we should do so in the off topic forum) is magic?
And Star Trek's warp drive, any similar science fiction technology,... also magic? Or is it just fictional biological things that are magical? Everything in Marvel and DC is magical, despite those settings actually having magic systems that define them otherwise, and despite there being actual 'Gods,' whose actual status as deities depends on character giving the opinion, who is writing that story and in the case of DC, day of the week?
That sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic does not make it actually magic, any more than the fact that electronics and human bodies both functioning on some level of passing of electrical current means an EMP affects them equally. Or that humans can get computer viruses. Or that computers can catch a cold or some other human virus. Burning oil does 5 damage. A Produce Flame spell does equivalent (4.5 damage, average), or more, if cast at higher levels than 4th. However, one works in an anti-magic shield and the other does not, regardless of whether some observer calls one, both, or neither magical and regardless of whether oil burns at all because there is some fire deity in existence willing it so.
Functionally, yes. Getting a sneak peak at the future is one of the oldest archetypes of magic, and while a sci-fi show might try to toss in something about "quantum" to make it fit the setting, that kind of "quantum" is the same as magic, just wearing a lab coat and hoping no one looks at it too closely.
I mean... really the answer is "yes" because at the end of the day fantasy and sci-fi are just subgenres of speculative fiction wearing different costumes. But you're also getting away from the topic at hand. We're not discussing mechanical devices here. You specifically asked about midichlorians being magical, and for all intents and purposes they are. They're little micro-organisms that simply by existing give beings the ability to move objects with their mind, influence the minds of others, blast lighting from their hands, etc. There's no attempt to ground any of this in science, their simple existence allows sentients to alter reality. That's magic, even if you get Jedi saying "it's not magic" and giving the whole "the Force surrounds us, it permeates us" speech. They're choosing to apply a different label to it, but as a trope it's a distinction without a difference.
You seem to be confusing appearances with reality. Do you believe that stage magicians in real life are really using magic? Do you believe that Penn and Teller's act would fail in an Anti-Magic field? There being predictable cause and effect does not equal 'magic.' It appears magical and is called magic but is not. Penn and Teller even break the code by showing how their 'magic' works.
And now you are insisting laser weapons and anti-matter rifles (which, again, have stats in the DMG and are not mechanical, or at least no more so than Warp Drive) would be shut down in an anti-magic shield. There is nothing in RAW that says so or even hints so. All matter is held together by atomic and subatomic forces. They surround and permeate us. Does an anti-magic field shut down reality?
There are useful distinctions to be made between supertech and magic, but the Force is solidly on the side of magic. Some useful indicators of tech that the Force lacks include:
The force is morally indifferent as it powers both the Jedi and the with. But then magic generally is morally indifferent. Of course so is tech - it’s the person using it that injects the morality.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Locking this thread because it seems people can't play nice and be civil
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