Your right about one thing midnight - 25 GP worth of powdered silver is a lot of powdered silver - so may be it’s not dissolved into the water making that mud you were talking about. Maybe it’s acting like a filter, silver is known to have antibacterial properties as well as to be fairly chemically active so maybe you are filtering the the water thru 25 GP of powdered silver to kill the bacteria and viruses in it as well as remove many of the chemical containment’s in it. Making the holy water truly “pure”.
I think ceremony grade powdered metal can be recognized as something that could require some proficiency to produce.
Why? What process of using a file to file down a piece of silver do you think there is that requires special skills?
Lots of variables. Yes "filing" is "simple". So isn't a sledgehammer, but if you wanted something demolished at a worksite, you're probably going to go with someone who actually has some background in demolition so that it's done right and the mess is minimized.
Not sure what any of that has to do with the actual topic, but sure "so isn't sledgehammer" indeed. You do realize that there is quite the difference between *filing* and safely demolishing a house, don't you?
It's not hard for my imagination to see if I wanted a substance intended for a ritual, I may want it to be done with a certain grade of care.
Then could you please answer the question as to what kind of special skills are needed or why filing for fun and filing for spell components is so different?
Also, I want someone with a high level of competency to avoid adulterants/contaminants and a true fine grade to my powder.
Are you saying that only people with special training can use files with a finer grit? That really doesn't make any sense at all.
Sposta is right that in a pinch tap water will do for holy water (though not to get into a theological debate with their partner, but there's a lot more to consider to the reason for the water to be blessed, it's not like they bulk prepare it, nor do they stockpile transubstantiated eucharist, that'd be sacrilege) so 25 gp of silver is simply a barrier to prevent ritual over run and a PC holy watering a bathtub whenever they have a chance to stock up. It would be hard to treat the substance as "precious" in the game otherwise, the cost puts some world verisimilitude on it, making the point that holy water is actually a revered substance in the game world and is not a simple game utility for mechanical effect. Having further quality controls on the preparations would be another hurdle so that the practice isn't taken for granted (given the whole money is easily taken for granted in game thing). Remember the holy water is being made holy in the name of a god and some gods have higher material standards than others, so it depends on the deity and vocations and what have you as well. Procurement of requisite items for anything in game can be a simple PC declares to DM and costs are noted accounting operation, or it can be a game in and of itself.
Yet again, what in the process of filing to you think is so advanced and complicated that you need special training to do in a special way when filing for a spell component? And why only for this particular spell? If you use a copper wire to cast "message", does that particular piece of wire has to have been made in a special way? If you use guano for your fireball, does the bat have to eat something special before it takes a shit? It makes no sense from either an artisinal point of view or a game mechanics point of view to have demand special training to perform literally one of the simplest tasks in crafting.
Interestingly, I poked around a few other parts of the DnD pundit verse and forum melees and it seems there's what I'd call the reasonable consensus that the 25 gp of powdered silver is not 250 silver pieces ground down to powder (that would be 5 pounds of silver added to somewhere between a gallon (high end of what might be ruled flask capacity) to vial, that's going to make either a very expensive sludge of a solution that would give the most zealous colloidal silver fan pause, like the silver equivalent of Milk of Magnesia.
Not sure why you're bringing this to me, but thanks for the info.
Rather the 25 gp of silver is by many considered to be the cost of the powder ... which in terms of scale sounds pretty artisanal in valuation.
It "sounds" like that? What a fantastic argument. You still haven't answered the question.
"But but that's bunk!" you and Wildbill may hiccup rhetorically demonstrating your non-proficiency capacity with an emory board and a Silver Eagle (yikes! talk about investing in an argument, and I kid about the emory board).
Why are you being so facetious and obnoxious? If you want adress WB's argument, adress them, not me.
The reason I mentioned sledgehammers and demolition by analogy was because both files and sledgehammers are both tools and I wanted something at hand to hit over your rhetorical head to recognize that there's folks who can use a tool well and there's the rest of us, the latter of whom may get the job done but not up to the quality and efficiency of a professional (plus I know a thing or too about sledgehammers for both demolition when looking for hidden goods as well as making breached entries through a door, I also know quite a few artists who know about using things like files with precious metals to put a fine, so to speak, point on it).
Ah, the old "I know a guy" argument. That's always a winner. But sure, both sledgehammers and files are tools, I already told you this in a previous statement. I also asked you if you didn't realize that there is quite the difference between using a sledgehammer to safely demolish an entire building and using a file to apply mechanical abrasion to a piece of precious metal. Should I take it from your longwinded reply that the answer to that question is 'no'?
If I'm just filing something, like some oxidation off a surface, I may practice a lot less care (though still some care since I'm trying to fashion something precious) than I would if I was say filing the metal to add to paint, where rather than simple "off" or ground up, I'll actually want a consistently uniform product and to do with efficient discipline that requires craft the untrained just don't have.
Again, what is that special disicipline or skill that you have to go to filing college for to be able to apply pressure with the file? Where does it say that the powder must be evenly ground or can't have any impurities?
And it's a fact that powders, like any substance, can be graded on a spectrum of everything from how fine, to amount of adulterants or impurities allowed to make it through the process, etc. Again, in Sposta's supposition some gods could be meh on quality and production and maybe even allow for substitutes, heck I'd even argue many. But since we're talking about imaginary divinities, that just means there are possibly as many gods who would be more prissy about the matter <rimshot>.
We're not talking about the gods, we are talking about the mechanics (and I've yet to read a book where it says whcih god accept what grade of powdered silver). And the mechanics say nothing about the powder having to be of a certain grain or purity. If you want to make up stuff that are seperate from how the game actually works, you can of course do so but your argument have no basis in the game. The game mechanics doesn't demand a certain gauge of copper wire to cast Message, it doesn't demand a particular species of adder to use for Melf's Acid Arrow so demanding a certain quality of of grit of the powdered silver is at best absurd at worst pedantic.
Again, these aspects of the game entertain me, and I find them entertaining to my players, so I push them a bit when we have time. You don't have to. But to be as perplexed as you or anyone else has been over my assertions goes beyond "I choose to leave rather than take this detail" and into the realms of the obtuse.
Again, I've asked you a simple question that you have failed to answer. No need to be rude about it, if you can't answer it then just say so. There's no fault in admitting that you can't.
But sure, you've turned "Dungeons & Dragons" into "Grit grades & Gauges"? Sure, if that's your thing. I'm assuming that there's a lot of "roll for measuring! Are you proficient in callipers?" and "Alas! Your ball-peen isof the wrong size, therefor you can't use it for that task."? Personally I think people are more interested in having their characters defeat monsters, save innocent bystanders, finding treasure or experiencing stories of character growth rather than going through artiisan's college but to each their own. Persoanlly I think it's a much mor einteresting magine to imagine a group of down on their luck, desperate adventures pooling their meager resources and filing down someone's keepsake silver locket to get the material components to cast the spell needed to defeat the evil whatever. But hey, perhaps that's just me.
The mechanics say literally nothing about how powdered silver for holy water is made. "You can just file it down" is as much an assumption as "it requires ritual purification before being suitable for the preparation of holy water" or "it's created via alchemical means by applying the right reagents" or anything else you want to come up with.
And DMs manage availability of special materials all the time. Sometimes you can scrape them off a cave wall, sometimes you need a specialist trader, sometimes it takes a side quest for the Unholy Hag of Haversham so she'll part with a couple of her nose hairs and the warts of her favourite toad. It's all equally valid at the end of the day. If just crafting it yourself is an option, well, crafting has rules - whether you imagine years of toiling away as an apprentice artisan in order to acquire expertise or simply don't think about it, proficiencies exist. Characters either are proficient or not. You can ignore that because it's more interesting to imagine a bunch of desperate adventures mcgyvering their way to a solution to whatever conundrum the DM foisted upon them last, but that too is "making up stuff separate from how the game works" (which is honestly fine by me, and a time-honored tradition at pretty much every table I ever played at or DMed for, but apparently we're supposed to frown upon for some reason).
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The mechanics say literally nothing about how powdered silver for holy water is made. "You can just file it down" is as much an assumption as "it requires ritual purification before being suitable for the preparation of holy water" or "it's created via alchemical means by applying the right reagents" or anything else you want to come up with.
And DMs manage availability of special materials all the time. Sometimes you can scrape them off a cave wall, sometimes you need a specialist trader, sometimes it takes a side quest for the Unholy Hag of Haversham so she'll part with a couple of her nose hairs and the warts of her favourite toad. It's all equally valid at the end of the day. If just crafting it yourself is an option, well, crafting has rules - whether you imagine years of toiling away as an apprentice artisan in order to acquire expertise or simply don't think about it, proficiencies exist. Characters either are proficient or not. You can ignore that because it's more interesting to imagine a bunch of desperate adventures mcgyvering their way to a solution to whatever conundrum the DM foisted upon them last, but that too is "making up stuff separate from how the game works" (which is honestly fine by me, and a time-honored tradition at pretty much every table I ever played at or DMed for, but apparently we're supposed to frown upon for some reason).
I am quite certain that there is plenty one can do with tool proficiencies beyond powdering silver. I do not think this particular question (druids, holy water, powdered silver) affects their utility in either direction to any meaningful degree.
The question is not what one can do with tool profiencies beyond powdering silver. The question is which tool proficiency, if any, applies to powdering silver and whether that proficiency is sufficient to create silver powder suitable as a component for holy water. And that's a question the rules don't specifically answer, so it's up to the DM.
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The mechanics say literally nothing about how powdered silver for holy water is made. "You can just file it down" is as much an assumption as "it requires ritual purification before being suitable for the preparation of holy water" or "it's created via alchemical means by applying the right reagents" or anything else you want to come up with.
And DMs manage availability of special materials all the time. Sometimes you can scrape them off a cave wall, sometimes you need a specialist trader, sometimes it takes a side quest for the Unholy Hag of Haversham so she'll part with a couple of her nose hairs and the warts of her favourite toad. It's all equally valid at the end of the day. If just crafting it yourself is an option, well, crafting has rules - whether you imagine years of toiling away as an apprentice artisan in order to acquire expertise or simply don't think about it, proficiencies exist. Characters either are proficient or not. You can ignore that because it's more interesting to imagine a bunch of desperate adventures mcgyvering their way to a solution to whatever conundrum the DM foisted upon them last, but that too is "making up stuff separate from how the game works" (which is honestly fine by me, and a time-honored tradition at pretty much every table I ever played at or DMed for, but apparently we're supposed to frown upon for some reason).
I am quite certain that there is plenty one can do with tool proficiencies beyond powdering silver. I do not think this particular question (druids, holy water, powdered silver) affects their utility in either direction to any meaningful degree.
The question is not what one can do with tool profiencies beyond powdering silver. The question is which tool proficiency, if any, applies to powdering silver and whether that proficiency is sufficient to create silver powder suitable as a component for holy water. And that's a question the rules don't specifically answer, so it's up to the DM.
Everything is up to the DM. However, you seem to be implying that DM's would be expected to make a certain decision in this specific situation and in particular, if not, implying that then said DM does not care about proficiencies in any other context.
Maybe I am misunderstanding, but that is how your arguments seem to sound.
I was specifically refering to the argument that “people are more interested in having their characters defeat monsters, save innocent bystanders, finding treasure or experiencing stories of character growth rather than going through artiisan's college but to each their own. Persoanlly I think it's a much mor einteresting magine to imagine a group of down on their luck, desperate adventures pooling their meager resources and filing down someone's keepsake silver locket to get the material components to cast the spell needed to defeat the evil whatever” which seems to suggest sticking with formal tool proficiency is not as interesting as having the players come up with a hail mary that ignores proficiency. Whether that’d only be in this specific context or in general would be up for debate (though let’s not), but I don’t think I implied anything about that either way. I mean, I didn’t bring up “Grit grades and Gauges” or “roll for measuring”.
A DM deciding that filing down a hunk of silver doesn’t cut the mustard for the purpose of making holy water isn’t making up stuff outside the rules. Neither is a DM deciding that doing so is perfectly ok, for that matter. A DM who chooses to ignore proficiency on the basis of it “not being interesting” rather than feeling it shouldn’t be necessary in a given situation though, to me that does feel like going outside the rules (which, again, I’m all for - but I’m not implying that whatever I think is best is within the rules, and whatever someone else thinks might not be).
Your right about one thing midnight - 25 GP worth of powdered silver is a lot of powdered silver - so may be it’s not dissolved into the water making that mud you were talking about. Maybe it’s acting like a filter, silver is known to have antibacterial properties as well as to be fairly chemically active so maybe you are filtering the the water thru 25 GP of powdered silver to kill the bacteria and viruses in it as well as remove many of the chemical containment’s in it. Making the holy water truly “pure”.
Sounds like the sort of cleansing/purification technique a Druid might know ;). Think I'm going to keep that in my notes. Question though, the rituals seem to imply that the 25 sp would be "consumed" so we'd be talking about a filtration process where the silver filter is "spent" during this sort of process?
[someone having way too much aggro over my fun snipped]
Again, I've asked you a simple question that you have failed to answer. No need to be rude about it, if you can't answer it then just say so. There's no fault in admitting that you can't.
But sure, you've turned "Dungeons & Dragons" into "Grit grades & Gauges"? Sure, if that's your thing. I'm assuming that there's a lot of "roll for measuring! Are you proficient in callipers?" and "Alas! Your ball-peen isof the wrong size, therefor you can't use it for that task."? Personally I think people are more interested in having their characters defeat monsters, save innocent bystanders, finding treasure or experiencing stories of character growth rather than going through artiisan's college but to each their own. Persoanlly I think it's a much mor einteresting magine to imagine a group of down on their luck, desperate adventures pooling their meager resources and filing down someone's keepsake silver locket to get the material components to cast the spell needed to defeat the evil whatever. But hey, perhaps that's just me.
I think it's pretty clear that I believe quality, care and reverence can apply as variables in the creation of spell components, particularly one's where divinities are being appealed to. You can keep it simply by the book, I like the ambiguity of the begged question.
I do like the idea of your adventurers filing away at silver to some Bardcore version of the A Team's welding montage. Mine would probably either break into an apothecary, artisan/painter or just beg. They're not proud.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
So the idea of a Druid relying on a Cleric or Paladin outside their tradition for a component integral to spell craft just sounds silly.
Not really. There are plenty of components that a druid might have to rely on others to obtain - jade circlet, diamonds, forked metal rod, golden sickle, gem-encrusted items (bowl, cup, etc), and so on.
It's not that different to the druid replying on someone else to make their armour, weapons, clothes, or other equipment.
So the idea of a Druid relying on a Cleric or Paladin outside their tradition for a component integral to spell craft just sounds silly.
Not really. There are plenty of components that a druid might have to rely on others to obtain - jade circlet, diamonds, forked metal rod, golden sickle, gem-encrusted items (bowl, cup, etc), and so on.
It's not that different to the druid replying on someone else to make their armour, weapons, clothes, or other equipment.
Mundane, however precious in gp value your examples may be, items vs consecrated substance. You see the difference? It's one thing to say "for my magics I need exotic stuffs." It's something very different to say "to use my Druidic magic that stems from the forces of nature I revere or or a nature deity, I must obtain a substance consecrated in the name of some other deity" (yes it's been said the Paladins could be part of the Druidic order but that seems odd for the spell casters to be reliant on their half casters).
Next druid in my group is going to have self-made druidic holy water as a spell focus. DM decree.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
So the idea of a Druid relying on a Cleric or Paladin outside their tradition for a component integral to spell craft just sounds silly.
Not really. There are plenty of components that a druid might have to rely on others to obtain - jade circlet, diamonds, forked metal rod, golden sickle, gem-encrusted items (bowl, cup, etc), and so on.
It's not that different to the druid replying on someone else to make their armour, weapons, clothes, or other equipment.
Mundane, however precious in gp value your examples may be, items vs consecrated substance. You see the difference? It's one thing to say "for my magics I need exotic stuffs." It's something very different to say "to use my Druidic magic that stems from the forces of nature I revere or or a nature deity, I must obtain a substance consecrated in the name of some other deity" (yes it's been said the Paladins could be part of the Druidic order but that seems odd for the spell casters to be reliant on their half casters).
Next druid in my group is going to have self-made druidic holy water as a spell focus. DM decree.
Actually I would agree with this, mostly because the spell it is needed for is 'Regenerate,' which is definitely as much a Druidic concept as a Clerical one.
Frankly though I think the best answer would be for Ceremony to be added to the Druid spell lists. Nothing on there that a Druid should be unable to do.
And I think the Ouroborus is a germane Druidic evocative thing as I think we've gone full circle with me noting that Ceremony was added to the game after Holy Water and its original guidance for preparation ... ;D
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Your right about one thing midnight - 25 GP worth of powdered silver is a lot of powdered silver - so may be it’s not dissolved into the water making that mud you were talking about. Maybe it’s acting like a filter, silver is known to have antibacterial properties as well as to be fairly chemically active so maybe you are filtering the the water thru 25 GP of powdered silver to kill the bacteria and viruses in it as well as remove many of the chemical containment’s in it. Making the holy water truly “pure”.
Sounds like the sort of cleansing/purification technique a Druid might know ;). Think I'm going to keep that in my notes. Question though, the rituals seem to imply that the 25 sp would be "consumed" so we'd be talking about a filtration process where the silver filter is "spent" during this sort of process?
[someone having way too much aggro over my fun snipped]
Again, why are you so rude? If anything, these passive aggressive remarks you keep posting shows that you are the one who's upset.
Again, I've asked you a simple question that you have failed to answer. No need to be rude about it, if you can't answer it then just say so. There's no fault in admitting that you can't.
But sure, you've turned "Dungeons & Dragons" into "Grit grades & Gauges"? Sure, if that's your thing. I'm assuming that there's a lot of "roll for measuring! Are you proficient in callipers?" and "Alas! Your ball-peen isof the wrong size, therefor you can't use it for that task."? Personally I think people are more interested in having their characters defeat monsters, save innocent bystanders, finding treasure or experiencing stories of character growth rather than going through artiisan's college but to each their own. Persoanlly I think it's a much mor einteresting magine to imagine a group of down on their luck, desperate adventures pooling their meager resources and filing down someone's keepsake silver locket to get the material components to cast the spell needed to defeat the evil whatever. But hey, perhaps that's just me.
I think it's pretty clear that I believe quality, care and reverence can apply as variables in the creation of spell components, particularly one's where divinities are being appealed to. You can keep it simply by the book, I like the ambiguity of the begged question.
Please drop these strawman arguments. No-one has ever said that you can't do it like this, just that it's completely against what the game actually tells us and I have asked you for some kind of justification or logic or reasoning for your rather arbitrary and absurd decision. Instead of being rude and, what I can only assume, willfully obtuse, can't you just answer the very simple question? Is there a a reason why you choose not to? Is the question too difficult perhaps? Since you keep moving the goalposts. Even if we accept your completely made up argument about certain gods (which is something that has no support in the actual game itself) wanting a finer quality of powder you still haven't told us what kind of special skills are needed to use a file in that magical way that produces said quality of powder. Could you at least try to answer the question or will you just give us another rant?
I do like the idea of your adventurers filing away at silver to some Bardcore version of the A Team's welding montage. Mine would probably either break into an apothecary, artisan/painter or just beg. They're not proud.
That's nice. But what has that to do with anything?
Midnite you are welcome to my notes, it may be that the religious community’s belief is that the silver, once used , is now polluted and must be repurified (rerefined and reground) so that it is both consumed and not consumed. If you want to make that religious recycling “artisanal” due to religious prejudices I have no problems with that - they can do all sorts of unneeded extra steps to “please their deity” but the basic process is to reject the silver (burning off any impurities) and then regrinding it down to the powder they want. Such recycling makes perfect sense for a Druid by the way - may be without all the extra steps as the fire and “erosion” of the silver are “natural” recycling processes to begin with.
I do like the idea of your adventurers filing away at silver to some Bardcore version of the A Team's welding montage. Mine would probably either break into an apothecary, artisan/painter or just beg. They're not proud.
That's nice. But what has that to do with anything?
And fron Brita to brittle, it's apparent something about my participation in this thread upsets you. You offer your preference of adventurers filing away, I offer a good natured validation of your imagination (this is basic good faith conversation 101 in most schools of communication) and "That's nice. But what has that to do with anything?" is your response? And "it has to do" with your sentiment. If you don't want people to react to what you write, I don't know why you'd include it in the discussion. I guess you feel the need to shut me down or what have you, and I suppose you're free to rail like that here for whatever value you get out of it. I'm not sure what you're getting triggered by or what injury you feel, but I'm sorry you're upset and will leave you to clarifies Pang's confusion a few posts up. I've been enjoying this discussion, your word choice seems to indicate you're not and I'm sorry you feel compelled to engage in something that's not fun for you.
Oh, I figured there'd be a spectrum of religious groups pretense as to the handling of a "used" filter. But I'm asking more from your real life technical understanding, silver filters are probably good for a certain volume of filtration, we're basically talking a super expensive more broadly functioning Brita, right? So probably good for a more than the vial/flask breadth implied in the ritual.
EDIT: oh wait, I see so once used, technically if the religious pretense deems "adulterated after use" they could reconstitute by grinding the silver again. If only coffee worked this way, hence my initial misread....
And I think the Ouroborus is a germane Druidic evocative thing as I think we've gone full circle with me noting that Ceremony was added to the game after Holy Water and its original guidance for preparation ... ;D
Ouroborus would be Reincarnate, down at level 5 on the Druidic lists. That uses 1,000 gp worth of 'rare oils and unguents.'
Which makes it a bit silly that a druid can grow the person an entirely new body easier than they can just reattach a limb... even if they still have the limb handy to reattach.
Maybe there's some sort of Druidic lesson there in the vanity of asserting "attachments" to the limbs of the past and reincarnate is more embracing of the principle of renewal. D&D can be deep, or at least a fishing expedition easily lost in.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I do like the idea of your adventurers filing away at silver to some Bardcore version of the A Team's welding montage. Mine would probably either break into an apothecary, artisan/painter or just beg. They're not proud.
That's nice. But what has that to do with anything?
And fron Brita to brittle, it's apparent something about my participation in this thread upsets you. You offer your preference of adventurers filing away, I offer a good natured validation of your imagination (this is basic good faith conversation 101 in most schools of communication) and "That's nice. But what has that to do with anything?" is your response? And "it has to do" with your sentiment. If you don't want people to react to what you write, I don't know why you'd include it in the discussion. I guess you feel the need to shut me down or what have you, and I suppose you're free to rail like that here for whatever value you get out of it. I'm not sure what you're getting triggered by or what injury you feel, but I'm sorry you're upset and will leave you to clarifies Pang's confusion a few posts up. I've been enjoying this discussion, your word choice seems to indicate you're not and I'm sorry you feel compelled to engage in something that's not fun for you.
Nice projecting. Is there any particular reason why you choose to engage in this immature behaviour instead of sticking to the actual topic and answering the simple questions? If they are to difficult for you I can always try simplify it down to a level you are more comfortable with? Or, if you don't have any answers or reasoning for your behaciour then you can just say so. There is no shame in admitting ignorance. Quite the contrary.
... it's completely against what the game actually tells us...
Really? What does the game actually tell us? I don't see any mention of filing down silverware in the rules, but maybe I overlooked it?
The game tells us nothing about how you need a certain quality of silvered powder nor that you need proficiency in any particular tool to create it.
The game tells us nothing either way, just like it doesn't tell us anything about the cut of a diamond used in spellcasting or the fabrication of the specific items needed for some spells. I assume most DMs don't allow players to harvest their own diamond from a line without proficiency, or slap some arts and crafts materials together without proficiency and let the result count as just anything either. But even if some do, that doesn't prove anything. It's clearly up to the DM, and whatever any given DM chooses to go with is valid and within the RAW.
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... it's completely against what the game actually tells us...
Really? What does the game actually tell us? I don't see any mention of filing down silverware in the rules, but maybe I overlooked it?
The game tells us nothing about how you need a certain quality of silvered powder nor that you need proficiency in any particular tool to create it.
The game tells us nothing either way, just like it doesn't tell us anything about the cut of a diamond used in spellcasting or the fabrication of the specific items needed for some spells. I assume most DMs don't allow players to harvest their own diamond from a line without proficiency, or slap some arts and crafts materials together without proficiency and let the result count as just anything either. But even if some do, that doesn't prove anything. It's clearly up to the DM, and whatever any given DM chooses to go with is valid and within the RAW.
Sure, if in your world there is no difference between using a simple tool and using advanced techniques then you are correct. D&D disagrees with you though. And no, despite your obvious contradiction not everything that the DM chooses is within RAW. The DM can always choose to go beyond RAW though, but in this case, the point being argued clearly has no support in the RAW.
I'm still not going to force Druids to kowtow to the Cleric/Paladin racketeering operation that folks on this thread are just fine with.
Wait 'til the wizards get wind of it. fabricate has no material component cost at all. They can flood the market with powdered silver
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Your right about one thing midnight - 25 GP worth of powdered silver is a lot of powdered silver - so may be it’s not dissolved into the water making that mud you were talking about. Maybe it’s acting like a filter, silver is known to have antibacterial properties as well as to be fairly chemically active so maybe you are filtering the the water thru 25 GP of powdered silver to kill the bacteria and viruses in it as well as remove many of the chemical containment’s in it. Making the holy water truly “pure”.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Not sure why you're bringing this to me, but thanks for the info.
It "sounds" like that? What a fantastic argument. You still haven't answered the question.
Why are you being so facetious and obnoxious? If you want adress WB's argument, adress them, not me.
Ah, the old "I know a guy" argument. That's always a winner. But sure, both sledgehammers and files are tools, I already told you this in a previous statement. I also asked you if you didn't realize that there is quite the difference between using a sledgehammer to safely demolish an entire building and using a file to apply mechanical abrasion to a piece of precious metal. Should I take it from your longwinded reply that the answer to that question is 'no'?
Again, what is that special disicipline or skill that you have to go to filing college for to be able to apply pressure with the file? Where does it say that the powder must be evenly ground or can't have any impurities?
We're not talking about the gods, we are talking about the mechanics (and I've yet to read a book where it says whcih god accept what grade of powdered silver). And the mechanics say nothing about the powder having to be of a certain grain or purity. If you want to make up stuff that are seperate from how the game actually works, you can of course do so but your argument have no basis in the game. The game mechanics doesn't demand a certain gauge of copper wire to cast Message, it doesn't demand a particular species of adder to use for Melf's Acid Arrow so demanding a certain quality of of grit of the powdered silver is at best absurd at worst pedantic.
Again, I've asked you a simple question that you have failed to answer. No need to be rude about it, if you can't answer it then just say so. There's no fault in admitting that you can't.
But sure, you've turned "Dungeons & Dragons" into "Grit grades & Gauges"? Sure, if that's your thing. I'm assuming that there's a lot of "roll for measuring! Are you proficient in callipers?" and "Alas! Your ball-peen isof the wrong size, therefor you can't use it for that task."? Personally I think people are more interested in having their characters defeat monsters, save innocent bystanders, finding treasure or experiencing stories of character growth rather than going through artiisan's college but to each their own. Persoanlly I think it's a much mor einteresting magine to imagine a group of down on their luck, desperate adventures pooling their meager resources and filing down someone's keepsake silver locket to get the material components to cast the spell needed to defeat the evil whatever. But hey, perhaps that's just me.
The mechanics say literally nothing about how powdered silver for holy water is made. "You can just file it down" is as much an assumption as "it requires ritual purification before being suitable for the preparation of holy water" or "it's created via alchemical means by applying the right reagents" or anything else you want to come up with.
And DMs manage availability of special materials all the time. Sometimes you can scrape them off a cave wall, sometimes you need a specialist trader, sometimes it takes a side quest for the Unholy Hag of Haversham so she'll part with a couple of her nose hairs and the warts of her favourite toad. It's all equally valid at the end of the day. If just crafting it yourself is an option, well, crafting has rules - whether you imagine years of toiling away as an apprentice artisan in order to acquire expertise or simply don't think about it, proficiencies exist. Characters either are proficient or not. You can ignore that because it's more interesting to imagine a bunch of desperate adventures mcgyvering their way to a solution to whatever conundrum the DM foisted upon them last, but that too is "making up stuff separate from how the game works" (which is honestly fine by me, and a time-honored tradition at pretty much every table I ever played at or DMed for, but apparently we're supposed to frown upon for some reason).
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The question is not what one can do with tool profiencies beyond powdering silver. The question is which tool proficiency, if any, applies to powdering silver and whether that proficiency is sufficient to create silver powder suitable as a component for holy water. And that's a question the rules don't specifically answer, so it's up to the DM.
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Makes no sense that a druid would be dependent on clerics and her god for holy water. I'd rule that the druid could make this herself.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
I was specifically refering to the argument that “people are more interested in having their characters defeat monsters, save innocent bystanders, finding treasure or experiencing stories of character growth rather than going through artiisan's college but to each their own. Persoanlly I think it's a much mor einteresting magine to imagine a group of down on their luck, desperate adventures pooling their meager resources and filing down someone's keepsake silver locket to get the material components to cast the spell needed to defeat the evil whatever” which seems to suggest sticking with formal tool proficiency is not as interesting as having the players come up with a hail mary that ignores proficiency. Whether that’d only be in this specific context or in general would be up for debate (though let’s not), but I don’t think I implied anything about that either way. I mean, I didn’t bring up “Grit grades and Gauges” or “roll for measuring”.
A DM deciding that filing down a hunk of silver doesn’t cut the mustard for the purpose of making holy water isn’t making up stuff outside the rules. Neither is a DM deciding that doing so is perfectly ok, for that matter. A DM who chooses to ignore proficiency on the basis of it “not being interesting” rather than feeling it shouldn’t be necessary in a given situation though, to me that does feel like going outside the rules (which, again, I’m all for - but I’m not implying that whatever I think is best is within the rules, and whatever someone else thinks might not be).
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Sounds like the sort of cleansing/purification technique a Druid might know ;). Think I'm going to keep that in my notes. Question though, the rituals seem to imply that the 25 sp would be "consumed" so we'd be talking about a filtration process where the silver filter is "spent" during this sort of process?
I think it's pretty clear that I believe quality, care and reverence can apply as variables in the creation of spell components, particularly one's where divinities are being appealed to. You can keep it simply by the book, I like the ambiguity of the begged question.
I do like the idea of your adventurers filing away at silver to some Bardcore version of the A Team's welding montage. Mine would probably either break into an apothecary, artisan/painter or just beg. They're not proud.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Not really. There are plenty of components that a druid might have to rely on others to obtain - jade circlet, diamonds, forked metal rod, golden sickle, gem-encrusted items (bowl, cup, etc), and so on.
It's not that different to the druid replying on someone else to make their armour, weapons, clothes, or other equipment.
Mundane, however precious in gp value your examples may be, items vs consecrated substance. You see the difference? It's one thing to say "for my magics I need exotic stuffs." It's something very different to say "to use my Druidic magic that stems from the forces of nature I revere or or a nature deity, I must obtain a substance consecrated in the name of some other deity" (yes it's been said the Paladins could be part of the Druidic order but that seems odd for the spell casters to be reliant on their half casters).
Next druid in my group is going to have self-made druidic holy water as a spell focus. DM decree.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
And I think the Ouroborus is a germane Druidic evocative thing as I think we've gone full circle with me noting that Ceremony was added to the game after Holy Water and its original guidance for preparation ... ;D
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Again, why are you so rude? If anything, these passive aggressive remarks you keep posting shows that you are the one who's upset.
Please drop these strawman arguments. No-one has ever said that you can't do it like this, just that it's completely against what the game actually tells us and I have asked you for some kind of justification or logic or reasoning for your rather arbitrary and absurd decision. Instead of being rude and, what I can only assume, willfully obtuse, can't you just answer the very simple question? Is there a a reason why you choose not to? Is the question too difficult perhaps? Since you keep moving the goalposts. Even if we accept your completely made up argument about certain gods (which is something that has no support in the actual game itself) wanting a finer quality of powder you still haven't told us what kind of special skills are needed to use a file in that magical way that produces said quality of powder. Could you at least try to answer the question or will you just give us another rant?
That's nice. But what has that to do with anything?
Midnite you are welcome to my notes, it may be that the religious community’s belief is that the silver, once used , is now polluted and must be repurified (rerefined and reground) so that it is both consumed and not consumed. If you want to make that religious recycling “artisanal” due to religious prejudices I have no problems with that - they can do all sorts of unneeded extra steps to “please their deity” but the basic process is to reject the silver (burning off any impurities) and then regrinding it down to the powder they want. Such recycling makes perfect sense for a Druid by the way - may be without all the extra steps as the fire and “erosion” of the silver are “natural” recycling processes to begin with.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Really? What does the game actually tell us? I don't see any mention of filing down silverware in the rules, but maybe I overlooked it?
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And fron Brita to brittle, it's apparent something about my participation in this thread upsets you. You offer your preference of adventurers filing away, I offer a good natured validation of your imagination (this is basic good faith conversation 101 in most schools of communication) and "That's nice. But what has that to do with anything?" is your response? And "it has to do" with your sentiment. If you don't want people to react to what you write, I don't know why you'd include it in the discussion. I guess you feel the need to shut me down or what have you, and I suppose you're free to rail like that here for whatever value you get out of it. I'm not sure what you're getting triggered by or what injury you feel, but I'm sorry you're upset and will leave you to clarifies Pang's confusion a few posts up. I've been enjoying this discussion, your word choice seems to indicate you're not and I'm sorry you feel compelled to engage in something that's not fun for you.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Oh, I figured there'd be a spectrum of religious groups pretense as to the handling of a "used" filter. But I'm asking more from your real life technical understanding, silver filters are probably good for a certain volume of filtration, we're basically talking a super expensive more broadly functioning Brita, right? So probably good for a more than the vial/flask breadth implied in the ritual.
EDIT: oh wait, I see so once used, technically if the religious pretense deems "adulterated after use" they could reconstitute by grinding the silver again. If only coffee worked this way, hence my initial misread....
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Maybe there's some sort of Druidic lesson there in the vanity of asserting "attachments" to the limbs of the past and reincarnate is more embracing of the principle of renewal. D&D can be deep, or at least a fishing expedition easily lost in.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The game tells us nothing about how you need a certain quality of silvered powder nor that you need proficiency in any particular tool to create it.
Nice projecting. Is there any particular reason why you choose to engage in this immature behaviour instead of sticking to the actual topic and answering the simple questions? If they are to difficult for you I can always try simplify it down to a level you are more comfortable with? Or, if you don't have any answers or reasoning for your behaciour then you can just say so. There is no shame in admitting ignorance. Quite the contrary.
The game tells us nothing either way, just like it doesn't tell us anything about the cut of a diamond used in spellcasting or the fabrication of the specific items needed for some spells. I assume most DMs don't allow players to harvest their own diamond from a line without proficiency, or slap some arts and crafts materials together without proficiency and let the result count as just anything either. But even if some do, that doesn't prove anything. It's clearly up to the DM, and whatever any given DM chooses to go with is valid and within the RAW.
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Sure, if in your world there is no difference between using a simple tool and using advanced techniques then you are correct. D&D disagrees with you though. And no, despite your obvious contradiction not everything that the DM chooses is within RAW. The DM can always choose to go beyond RAW though, but in this case, the point being argued clearly has no support in the RAW.
Wait 'til the wizards get wind of it. fabricate has no material component cost at all. They can flood the market with powdered silver
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