"A cleric or paladin may create holy water by performing a special ritual. The ritual takes 1 hour to perform, uses 25 gp worth of powdered silver, and requires the caster to expend a 1st-level spell slot." - so, no, druids can't create holy water. Note that spellcasters in general can't simply create their spell components, this is not some druids-getting-the-shaft-oversight type thing.
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By the rules, Druids can't create holy water by themselves. True enough. Do they need a Cleric or a Paladin? I would say no. They can get their holy water in essentially the same way a Cleric or Paladin does. From the Forces of Nature, the things that grant Druids their power, and Druids treat the natural world as a holy place.
So I'd make up a new spell called Harmony. Same exact text as Ceremony. It would be Druid and Ranger only.
Druids (and clerics, for that matter) can't make the powdered silver needed for holy water. So, does it really matter they can't make holy water? It's thematical for clerics and paladins, but seems less so for druids. If your druid needs it, having to seek it out seems no more or less appropriate than having to seek out powdered silver in order to then be able to make it.
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Druids (and clerics, for that matter) can't make the powdered silver needed for holy water. So, does it really matter they can't make holy water? It's thematical for clerics and paladins, but seems less so for druids. If your druid needs it, having to seek it out seems no more or less appropriate than having to seek out powdered silver in order to then be able to make it.
Pardon? How do Clerics or Paladins make powdered silver? Where do any of them get it, exactly?
I explicitly said they can't. I assume they get it from an alchemist or magical emporium or something.
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Druids (and clerics, for that matter) can't make the powdered silver needed for holy water. So, does it really matter they can't make holy water? It's thematical for clerics and paladins, but seems less so for druids. If your druid needs it, having to seek it out seems no more or less appropriate than having to seek out powdered silver in order to then be able to make it.
Pardon? How do Clerics or Paladins make powdered silver? Where do any of them get it, exactly?
I explicitly said they can't. I assume they get it from an alchemist or magical emporium or something.
Sorry if I was unclear. Meant that there is no particular reason that anyone of any class could not file down silver to make powdered silver themselves.
I assume powdered silver is a bit more complicated to make than filing down solid objects and requires some actual skill and specific equipment, but that's up to the DM.
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Druids (and clerics, for that matter) can't make the powdered silver needed for holy water. So, does it really matter they can't make holy water? It's thematical for clerics and paladins, but seems less so for druids. If your druid needs it, having to seek it out seems no more or less appropriate than having to seek out powdered silver in order to then be able to make it.
Pardon? How do Clerics or Paladins make powdered silver? Where do any of them get it, exactly?
I explicitly said they can't. I assume they get it from an alchemist or magical emporium or something.
Sorry if I was unclear. Meant that there is no particular reason that anyone of any class could not file down silver to make powdered silver themselves.
I assume powdered silver is a bit more complicated to make than filing down solid objects and requires some actual skill and specific equipment, but that's up to the DM.
Regardless of the process, it is almost certainly an artisan tool related task and tools can be learned by any class. Yes, exact details up to the DM, but should not be an obstacle by class.
Absolutely, but it's not built into any class. Same with, say, gems (no class comes with a skill to mine/cut/polish/appraise gems) or trinkets or specific types of rock. My point, to clarify, is that the system doesn't assume all druids or all clerics have ready access to powdered silver, just like it doesn't assume casters have ready access to valuable/unusual components in general (in fact, it seems to assume the opposite) and that's fine. It's not an error or bug.
It’s ‘Powdered silver’, not ‘alchemical silver’, which was a thing in prior editions. I can make powdered steel in my garage with a file IRL and have many times when smoothing out burs when tinkering with projects (although small quantities of powder because no reason to keep filing). I’ve also done it many times with flint when camping. it’s truly not hard and a monkey can do it. I have a couple silver coins but no desire to try to prove it specifically on real silver lol.
So the idea of a Druid relying on a Cleric or Paladin outside their tradition for a component integral to spell craft just sounds silly. FWIW, the item description for Holy Water does not mention the Ceremony spell, rather, taken from the equipment description of this site:
A cleric or paladin may create holy water by performing a special ritual. The ritual takes 1 hour to perform, uses 25 gp worth of powdered silver, and requires the caster to expend a 1st-level spell slot.
I'm presuming this ritual produces an. amount of water equivalent to the flask's worth in the item description because it seems a fair inference.
So I'm thinking Druid's need/use for holy water was overlooked in the rules writing, not intending to obligate Druids to Clerics and Palladins. I'd house rule Druids can consecrate water through the same process. I mean Druids spend spell slots for non explicit spells all the time healing in wild shape and the like, so let them be fluid in making revered fluids. I might even go further and allow more spell slots and time be expended to say consecrate a pool, or even the output of a spring to create sacred fonts (Clerics and Palladins could too, I think, though I'd have to look more into consecrating spaces, etc).
It seems a lot of Druid design leans puts too much emphasis on the wild shaping and not its spell craft and relationship to well, nature.
I'd also move away from 25gp of powdered silver across game and allow 25 gp of substance more germane to the faith being invoked (which could be silver).
So the idea of a Druid relying on a Cleric or Paladin outside their tradition for a component integral to spell craft just sounds silly. FWIW, the item description for Holy Water does not mention the Ceremony spell, rather, taken from the equipment description of this site:
A cleric or paladin may create holy water by performing a special ritual. The ritual takes 1 hour to perform, uses 25 gp worth of powdered silver, and requires the caster to expend a 1st-level spell slot.
I'm presuming this ritual produces an. amount of water equivalent to the flask's worth in the item description because it seems a fair inference.
So I'm thinking Druid's need/use for holy water was overlooked in the rules writing, not intending to obligate Druids to Clerics and Palladins. I'd house rule Druids can consecrate water through the same process. I mean Druids spend spell slots for non explicit spells all the time healing in wild shape and the like, so let them be fluid in making revered fluids. I might even go further and allow more spell slots and time be expended to say consecrate a pool, or even the output of a spring to create sacred fonts (Clerics and Palladins could too, I think, though I'd have to look more into consecrating spaces, etc).
It seems a lot of Druid design leans puts too much emphasis on the wild shaping and not its spell craft and relationship to well, nature.
I'd also move away from 25gp of powdered silver across game and allow 25 gp of substance more germane to the faith being invoked (which could be silver).
Well it could be that the Ceremony spell is just to make fancy flavoured holy water, but why a cleric or paladin would have to prepare the spell if they do not actually need it?
It is clear that the spell is the 'special ritual' used.
It's not as definitive as you're claiming unless you are a rule compendium completist, insisting "all books must be considered and must retcon." It's not clear because when the item was first introduced into the game, Ceremony the spell did not exist (and I'd argue it's needless in this context given the item write up precedent).
I figured it out. Holy Water, and its ritual are described before Xanthar's. WotC in its infinite wisdom included water blessing as an option of Ceremony, introduced in Xanathar's. One does not have to prepare a spell to spend a spell slot. It seems like a form of ritual casting that also (paradoxically) spends a slot. The important operation in the original rules was the expenditure of a spell slot. Sure if you incorporate everything from Xanathar's as integral to your game, then you force Druids to appeal to Clerics and Palladins who are bound to Ceremony for Holy Water, you can. But really, in the way Holy Water is written up, where it's just 25gp in substances (specifically special soluble silver but really that's flavor and is the easiest point of departure) and a spell slot, what is the introduction of Ceremony improving?
DMs can with rules pile on run a tight (what I feel is superfluously) prescriptive game in this instance, but I don't see the need to, and again the notion of Druids needing to appeal to Clerics and Palladins for a spell component that is basically "sacred WATER," something clearly evocative of a Druid's domain and themes, is about as silly as a Tibetan Monk requiring a ground up Catholic Eucharist to finish a mandala.
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I assume powdered silver is a bit more complicated to make than filing down solid objects and requires some actual skill and specific equipment, but that's up to the DM.
Actually no it’s not. Realistically to get 25 GP worth of silver filings/ powdered silver I wouldn’t spend my time filing 250 silver coins or a 25 GP bar of silver ( thought would work just fine but take a LONG time). I would saw the silver into small pieces, mix it with crushed sand and grind it in a large mortar and pestle then wash the sand off much like you would panning for gold. Silver is only half the density of gold but it is 3 times denser than quartz (sand). So panning will work nicely to get the quartz sand rinsed out leaving you with powdered silver. All you need is a crushing Aristarchus and a sluice box to go into big time production - why you want to is a different question.
I’d allow it with the Herbalism Kit. Holy Rollers need powdered silver and a spell, Druids just need 25gp worth of Mistletoe or whatever to make holy water IMO.
I'm now wondering whether 25 gp of powdered silver is straight coin value or includes the labor of either the panning and/or grinding. Because going by vial or flask, I feel 250 silver coins is going to make some funky rich people water.
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It seems like it boils down to whether or not something is Sacred or something is Holy. The two words are normally used interchangeably, but when it comes right down to it, Sacred means it's that way to begin with, and Holy means that it's blessed by the gods. According to the common conception of Druids, that they worship Nature, water is something blessed in and of itself, Nature gives it to people to quench their thirst, and when withheld long enough, people die.
So then, riddle me this, where does the water used in making Holy Water come from in the first place? Seems to me, it's from Druids, or they gather it themselves from somewhere else that is sacred to them. It really doesn't matter, but I don't see any reason why Druids can't take water, which they believe is sacred, and bless it.
Here is my problem with the whole concept - holy water (& clerics and paladins) have power against undead and fiends, druids don’t so what is their “holy water” going to affect? The Fey? Aberrations? Civilized citizens? What?
I'm now wondering whether 25 gp of powdered silver is straight coin value or includes the labor of either the panning and/or grinding. Because going by vial or flask, I feel 250 silver coins is going to make some funky rich people water.
Think of it as the coin value, the grinding and washing can be done with animals (grinding) and with a sluice in minutes for the washing.
Here is my problem with the whole concept - holy water (& clerics and paladins) have power against undead and fiends, druids don’t so what is their “holy water” going to affect? The Fey? Aberrations? Civilized citizens? What?
The discussion started because evidently holy water is a Druidic spell component. Holy water has fluid utility, so to speak.
And I'll reassert having Druids requiring Paladins or Clerics as a spell component hook up is just silly.
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The spell is the L7 cleric and Druid spell Regenerate. It dates all the way back to 1e so I wouldn’t be surprised to find it was written as a clerical spell and just transferred to Druid as is. I’ll bet no one ever went in and looked and realized it needed a Druidic variant in material component. Maybe created water with a cure wounds spell applied to it since there is no Druidic version of Bless that could be used.
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Can druids create holy water? I noticed that the druid spell Regenerate requires holy water as a spell component.
"A cleric or paladin may create holy water by performing a special ritual. The ritual takes 1 hour to perform, uses 25 gp worth of powdered silver, and requires the caster to expend a 1st-level spell slot." - so, no, druids can't create holy water. Note that spellcasters in general can't simply create their spell components, this is not some druids-getting-the-shaft-oversight type thing.
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By the rules, Druids can't create holy water by themselves. True enough. Do they need a Cleric or a Paladin? I would say no. They can get their holy water in essentially the same way a Cleric or Paladin does. From the Forces of Nature, the things that grant Druids their power, and Druids treat the natural world as a holy place.
So I'd make up a new spell called Harmony. Same exact text as Ceremony. It would be Druid and Ranger only.
<Insert clever signature here>
Druids (and clerics, for that matter) can't make the powdered silver needed for holy water. So, does it really matter they can't make holy water? It's thematical for clerics and paladins, but seems less so for druids. If your druid needs it, having to seek it out seems no more or less appropriate than having to seek out powdered silver in order to then be able to make it.
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from a metal file and 250 silver coins. - they just get it if they have enough money.
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I explicitly said they can't. I assume they get it from an alchemist or magical emporium or something.
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I assume powdered silver is a bit more complicated to make than filing down solid objects and requires some actual skill and specific equipment, but that's up to the DM.
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Absolutely, but it's not built into any class. Same with, say, gems (no class comes with a skill to mine/cut/polish/appraise gems) or trinkets or specific types of rock. My point, to clarify, is that the system doesn't assume all druids or all clerics have ready access to powdered silver, just like it doesn't assume casters have ready access to valuable/unusual components in general (in fact, it seems to assume the opposite) and that's fine. It's not an error or bug.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
It’s ‘Powdered silver’, not ‘alchemical silver’, which was a thing in prior editions. I can make powdered steel in my garage with a file IRL and have many times when smoothing out burs when tinkering with projects (although small quantities of powder because no reason to keep filing). I’ve also done it many times with flint when camping. it’s truly not hard and a monkey can do it. I have a couple silver coins but no desire to try to prove it specifically on real silver lol.
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So the idea of a Druid relying on a Cleric or Paladin outside their tradition for a component integral to spell craft just sounds silly. FWIW, the item description for Holy Water does not mention the Ceremony spell, rather, taken from the equipment description of this site:
I'm presuming this ritual produces an. amount of water equivalent to the flask's worth in the item description because it seems a fair inference.
So I'm thinking Druid's need/use for holy water was overlooked in the rules writing, not intending to obligate Druids to Clerics and Palladins. I'd house rule Druids can consecrate water through the same process. I mean Druids spend spell slots for non explicit spells all the time healing in wild shape and the like, so let them be fluid in making revered fluids. I might even go further and allow more spell slots and time be expended to say consecrate a pool, or even the output of a spring to create sacred fonts (Clerics and Palladins could too, I think, though I'd have to look more into consecrating spaces, etc).
It seems a lot of Druid design leans puts too much emphasis on the wild shaping and not its spell craft and relationship to well, nature.
I'd also move away from 25gp of powdered silver across game and allow 25 gp of substance more germane to the faith being invoked (which could be silver).
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
It's not as definitive as you're claiming unless you are a rule compendium completist, insisting "all books must be considered and must retcon." It's not clear because when the item was first introduced into the game, Ceremony the spell did not exist (and I'd argue it's needless in this context given the item write up precedent).
I figured it out. Holy Water, and its ritual are described before Xanthar's. WotC in its infinite wisdom included water blessing as an option of Ceremony, introduced in Xanathar's. One does not have to prepare a spell to spend a spell slot. It seems like a form of ritual casting that also (paradoxically) spends a slot. The important operation in the original rules was the expenditure of a spell slot. Sure if you incorporate everything from Xanathar's as integral to your game, then you force Druids to appeal to Clerics and Palladins who are bound to Ceremony for Holy Water, you can. But really, in the way Holy Water is written up, where it's just 25gp in substances (specifically special soluble silver but really that's flavor and is the easiest point of departure) and a spell slot, what is the introduction of Ceremony improving?
DMs can with rules pile on run a tight (what I feel is superfluously) prescriptive game in this instance, but I don't see the need to, and again the notion of Druids needing to appeal to Clerics and Palladins for a spell component that is basically "sacred WATER," something clearly evocative of a Druid's domain and themes, is about as silly as a Tibetan Monk requiring a ground up Catholic Eucharist to finish a mandala.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I assume the bit after 'paradoxically' was supposed to be that paladins can't cast ritual spells
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Actually no it’s not. Realistically to get 25 GP worth of silver filings/ powdered silver I wouldn’t spend my time filing 250 silver coins or a 25 GP bar of silver ( thought would work just fine but take a LONG time). I would saw the silver into small pieces, mix it with crushed sand and grind it in a large mortar and pestle then wash the sand off much like you would panning for gold. Silver is only half the density of gold but it is 3 times denser than quartz (sand). So panning will work nicely to get the quartz sand rinsed out leaving you with powdered silver. All you need is a crushing Aristarchus and a sluice box to go into big time production - why you want to is a different question.
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I’d allow it with the Herbalism Kit. Holy Rollers need powdered silver and a spell, Druids just need 25gp worth of Mistletoe or whatever to make holy water IMO.
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I'm now wondering whether 25 gp of powdered silver is straight coin value or includes the labor of either the panning and/or grinding. Because going by vial or flask, I feel 250 silver coins is going to make some funky rich people water.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
It seems like it boils down to whether or not something is Sacred or something is Holy. The two words are normally used interchangeably, but when it comes right down to it, Sacred means it's that way to begin with, and Holy means that it's blessed by the gods. According to the common conception of Druids, that they worship Nature, water is something blessed in and of itself, Nature gives it to people to quench their thirst, and when withheld long enough, people die.
So then, riddle me this, where does the water used in making Holy Water come from in the first place? Seems to me, it's from Druids, or they gather it themselves from somewhere else that is sacred to them. It really doesn't matter, but I don't see any reason why Druids can't take water, which they believe is sacred, and bless it.
<Insert clever signature here>
Here is my problem with the whole concept - holy water (& clerics and paladins) have power against undead and fiends, druids don’t so what is their “holy water” going to affect? The Fey? Aberrations? Civilized citizens? What?
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Think of it as the coin value, the grinding and washing can be done with animals (grinding) and with a sluice in minutes for the washing.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The discussion started because evidently holy water is a Druidic spell component. Holy water has fluid utility, so to speak.
And I'll reassert having Druids requiring Paladins or Clerics as a spell component hook up is just silly.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The spell is the L7 cleric and Druid spell Regenerate. It dates all the way back to 1e so I wouldn’t be surprised to find it was written as a clerical spell and just transferred to Druid as is. I’ll bet no one ever went in and looked and realized it needed a Druidic variant in material component. Maybe created water with a cure wounds spell applied to it since there is no Druidic version of Bless that could be used.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.