For the most part, I understand the idea of the Kenku's being able to mimic sounds that they hear. But what I don't understand is, how does persuasion and\or deception work with the Kenku's ability to mimic?
For the most part, I understand the idea of the Kenku's being able to mimic sounds that they hear. But what I don't understand is, how does persuasion and\or deception work with the Kenku's ability to mimic?
There is, fundamentally, no difference between a kenku trying to persuade or deceive someone and a non-kenku humanoid trying the same. Mimicry doesn't functionally change anything, it's really just more of an aesthetic (albeit an involuntary one for the kenku). DMs can choose to apply circumstantial modifiers due to mimicry having to be used, but circumstantial modifiers could be applied to others for other reasons too. If the check fails that can be explained as mimicry making the attempt more difficult, but every failed check has some in character explanation as to why it wasn't successful. There's no real and certainly no mechanical difference.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
The question is unclear. Are you asking if the Kenku's mimicry enhances a Kenku's ability to persuade or deceive? I suppose there are a few questions to consider:
Would it be immediately apparent that the Kenku is using mimicry? For example, if the creature can see the Kenku making the noises and the Kenku is making no effort to conceal that fact, then nothing special should apply.
If it would not be immediately apparent, would the creature know it was the Kenku using mimicry? Then the creature makes an Insight check contested against the Kenku's Deception check.
If the Kenku wins the contested check? I'm not aware of any specific rule that applies. Depending on circumstances, the DM might deem it an automatic success to deceive or persuade, or they may lower the DC, or they may grant advantage, or they may just use the normal Persuasion and Deception rules. In some cases, it may automatically fail if the Kenku chooses to mimic something that makes no sense (e.g. tying to convince an unseen individual in a fort to withdraw by mimicking the Knight Commander without realizing that the individual in question actually was the Knight Commander themselves).
Apologies if I am misunderstanding the question.
No worries, I guess a better way to ask this is (Although, I do like how you responded). Sense, we know how persuasion and deception works with how humans, and every other race communicate. How does persuasion and deception work with Kenku who communicate different?
I think the hardest part with a kenku is not do you believe them (are you persuaded if they are telling the truth, or are you deceived if they're lying), it's understanding them. They might not be able to say exactly what they want to say, because they haven't heard that exact phrase before. So they use the next best thing.
Provided you can understand them, I think persuasion and deception works exactly the same way. Assuming we're talking about the kenku monster attempting to deceive your PCs, you roll a Deception check for the kenku, which is d20 + 4 since they have 0 charisma but expertise in Deception. This is contested against the PC's Insight check. If the Deception check is equal to or higher than the Insight check, then you tell the player, "They seem to be telling the truth." If the Deception check is lower, then you reveal that the kenku is lying.
If your players ask for an Insight check, and what the kenku is saying is true, then again I ask for the PC to make an Insight check. Rather than a contested check, I do what I call an assisted check. I add the monster's Persuasion bonus to the Insight check. In this case, kenku have 0 Persuasion bonus. I choose a DC based on how generally believable the statement is (default 10 for plausible statements). If they equal or beat the DC, then I tell them, "They seem to be telling the truth." There is no way for the players to know if they've succeeded against a Persuasion check or failed against a Deception check. If they fail, I tell them, "You're not sure."
If we're talking about a PC kenku, I don't have Volo's, so I don't know what their abilities are. But it should work the same way. Persuasion is d20 + Cha + proficiency if proficient. Deception is d20 + Cha + proficiency. Deception is contested by NPC Insight. Persuasion to tell them the truth is an assisted check adding the NPC's Insight bonus. Persuasion to convince them to do something usually has a DC set in the adventure, or if it's homebrew, the DM decides the DC.
The rules don't exactly define what Thieves' Cant is. I like to think it's a system for slipping hints into an innocent sounding conversation that tell someone who knows Thieves' Cant your real intentions, without revealing them to eavesdroppers.
So a kenku would be perfectly suited to that, because they'd learn to mimic the code phrases they need.
The rules don't exactly define what Thieves' Cant is. I like to think it's a system for slipping hints into an innocent sounding conversation that tell someone who knows Thieves' Cant your real intentions, without revealing them to eavesdroppers.
So a kenku would be perfectly suited to that, because they'd learn to mimic the code phrases they need.
I've never really known what make of Thieves’ Cant, but I really like your thought on that.
Communication is not just verbal If you think about a simple interaction
NPC How are you Kenku I am ok
If the Kenku was not ok then deception would involve projecting they are with body language, how they interact, how they stand and look. It is not just about the words that are said. As a DM I might make the DC slightly harder or easier based on the phrase that is copied by the Kenku but ultimately the words themselves don't matter.
The same with persuasion,
Open the door
Is an instruction, but the way the Kenku says it, the tilit of the head the look the stance will all feed into the attempt to persuade.
When my players are doing things like persuasion or deception sometimes they don't even say the words in the first person, they might simply say I am trying to deceive this person to believe X regardless of race I still allow them to make the attempt.
Communication is not just verbal If you think about a simple interaction
NPC How are you Kenku I am ok
If the Kenku was not ok then deception would involve projecting they are with body language, how they interact, how they stand and look. It is not just about the words that are said. As a DM I might make the DC slightly harder or easier based on the phrase that is copied by the Kenku but ultimately the words themselves don't matter.
The same with persuasion,
Open the door
Is an instruction, but the way the Kenku says it, the tilit of the head the look the stance will all feed into the attempt to persuade.
When my players are doing things like persuasion or deception sometimes they don't even say the words in the first person, they might simply say I am trying to deceive this person to believe X regardless of race I still allow them to make the attempt.
Can a Kenku tell lies? Only by omission. It would have to hear a phrase that was specifically a lie about the subject at hand otherwise. Persuasion might be possible, but the DC of the check ought to be 5 points higher than it would be for people who could speak instead of repeat phrases.
As for Thieves' Cant, the only time it was mentioned was as part of the complicated slang used in Planescape. They said it worked by putting special emphasis on common terms or using slang that nobody would understand. A "box top job" would be breaking into a safe. A "look-see" or a "nosey" would be to case a joint for a later theft. Kenku would have to be taught each term, but they could use it, other than when they were putting special emphasis on common words. "I'm going to check out Bob's place" in Thieves' Cant would be to case a place owned by "Bob" for a theft, but a Kenku wouldn't be able to say the word "check" in anything other than the tone of voice it had heard, and if you were going to check "Ralph's Place" the Kenku couldn't say that.
Can a Kenku tell lies? Only by omission. It would have to hear a phrase that was specifically a lie about the subject at hand otherwise.
Yes, no, maybe, it's that way, no worries, I don't know, etc - there are quite a lot of moderately to extremely generic things a kenku can say that could be blatant lies without being specific about a given subject.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
in some ways a Kenku lying is easier, they just repeat the wrong phrase, it will be the body language that gives them away as opposed to inflection in the voice.
Can a Kenku tell lies? Only by omission. It would have to hear a phrase that was specifically a lie about the subject at hand otherwise. Persuasion might be possible, but the DC of the check ought to be 5 points higher than it would be for people who could speak instead of repeat phrases.
"My name is Steve." "Today is Tuesday." "The treasure is to my right." There are a lot of things a kenku could hear that were true when someone else said them but lies when the kenku says them.
in some ways a Kenku lying is easier, they just repeat the wrong phrase, it will be the body language that gives them away as opposed to inflection in the voice.
Perhaps that's why the kenku stat block has expertise in Deception (+4 Deception = 2 x proficiency 2 + Cha 0).
Why is there an assumption that it has to be a phrase? "You can mimic sounds you have heard, including voices."
You can just weave together words you heard from different people, sure all words would sound differently if it was heard from a woman, a child, a raging orc or a calm druid. Or they can laugh like a child, or like a drunken dwarf, as they see fit. As per my understanding the Kengu does not "speak", it repeats the sound of the words exactly as it heard it (and of course understands the meaning). As per my understanding they don't have a standard voice, that is their own.
"A creature that hears the sounds you make can tell they are imitations with a successful Wisdom (Insight) check opposed by your Charisma (Deception) check." I guess this applies if you want to impersonate someone.
I see. You never clarified if you were going to be playing the PC race or the monster.
I have to say, playing a kenku NPC is insanely fun, but I can't imagine doing it for a whole campaign.
Oh ya, your right, I didn't. I'm looking to play the Kenku as a player character. But ya, I can see how it would be a challenge to play in a full campaign.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
For the most part, I understand the idea of the Kenku's being able to mimic sounds that they hear. But what I don't understand is, how does persuasion and\or deception work with the Kenku's ability to mimic?
There is, fundamentally, no difference between a kenku trying to persuade or deceive someone and a non-kenku humanoid trying the same. Mimicry doesn't functionally change anything, it's really just more of an aesthetic (albeit an involuntary one for the kenku). DMs can choose to apply circumstantial modifiers due to mimicry having to be used, but circumstantial modifiers could be applied to others for other reasons too. If the check fails that can be explained as mimicry making the attempt more difficult, but every failed check has some in character explanation as to why it wasn't successful. There's no real and certainly no mechanical difference.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
No worries, I guess a better way to ask this is (Although, I do like how you responded). Sense, we know how persuasion and deception works with how humans, and every other race communicate. How does persuasion and deception work with Kenku who communicate different?
I think the hardest part with a kenku is not do you believe them (are you persuaded if they are telling the truth, or are you deceived if they're lying), it's understanding them. They might not be able to say exactly what they want to say, because they haven't heard that exact phrase before. So they use the next best thing.
Provided you can understand them, I think persuasion and deception works exactly the same way. Assuming we're talking about the kenku monster attempting to deceive your PCs, you roll a Deception check for the kenku, which is d20 + 4 since they have 0 charisma but expertise in Deception. This is contested against the PC's Insight check. If the Deception check is equal to or higher than the Insight check, then you tell the player, "They seem to be telling the truth." If the Deception check is lower, then you reveal that the kenku is lying.
If your players ask for an Insight check, and what the kenku is saying is true, then again I ask for the PC to make an Insight check. Rather than a contested check, I do what I call an assisted check. I add the monster's Persuasion bonus to the Insight check. In this case, kenku have 0 Persuasion bonus. I choose a DC based on how generally believable the statement is (default 10 for plausible statements). If they equal or beat the DC, then I tell them, "They seem to be telling the truth." There is no way for the players to know if they've succeeded against a Persuasion check or failed against a Deception check. If they fail, I tell them, "You're not sure."
If we're talking about a PC kenku, I don't have Volo's, so I don't know what their abilities are. But it should work the same way. Persuasion is d20 + Cha + proficiency if proficient. Deception is d20 + Cha + proficiency. Deception is contested by NPC Insight. Persuasion to tell them the truth is an assisted check adding the NPC's Insight bonus. Persuasion to convince them to do something usually has a DC set in the adventure, or if it's homebrew, the DM decides the DC.
This is really interesting. Thank you.
Something else I just thought of. How can Thieves’ Cant be used by a Kenku?
The rules don't exactly define what Thieves' Cant is. I like to think it's a system for slipping hints into an innocent sounding conversation that tell someone who knows Thieves' Cant your real intentions, without revealing them to eavesdroppers.
So a kenku would be perfectly suited to that, because they'd learn to mimic the code phrases they need.
I've never really known what make of Thieves’ Cant, but I really like your thought on that.
Communication is not just verbal If you think about a simple interaction
NPC How are you
Kenku I am ok
If the Kenku was not ok then deception would involve projecting they are with body language, how they interact, how they stand and look. It is not just about the words that are said. As a DM I might make the DC slightly harder or easier based on the phrase that is copied by the Kenku but ultimately the words themselves don't matter.
The same with persuasion,
Open the door
Is an instruction, but the way the Kenku says it, the tilit of the head the look the stance will all feed into the attempt to persuade.
When my players are doing things like persuasion or deception sometimes they don't even say the words in the first person, they might simply say I am trying to deceive this person to believe X regardless of race I still allow them to make the attempt.
Wow, thank you. That is really helpful.
Can a Kenku tell lies? Only by omission. It would have to hear a phrase that was specifically a lie about the subject at hand otherwise. Persuasion might be possible, but the DC of the check ought to be 5 points higher than it would be for people who could speak instead of repeat phrases.
As for Thieves' Cant, the only time it was mentioned was as part of the complicated slang used in Planescape. They said it worked by putting special emphasis on common terms or using slang that nobody would understand. A "box top job" would be breaking into a safe. A "look-see" or a "nosey" would be to case a joint for a later theft. Kenku would have to be taught each term, but they could use it, other than when they were putting special emphasis on common words. "I'm going to check out Bob's place" in Thieves' Cant would be to case a place owned by "Bob" for a theft, but a Kenku wouldn't be able to say the word "check" in anything other than the tone of voice it had heard, and if you were going to check "Ralph's Place" the Kenku couldn't say that.
<Insert clever signature here>
Yes, no, maybe, it's that way, no worries, I don't know, etc - there are quite a lot of moderately to extremely generic things a kenku can say that could be blatant lies without being specific about a given subject.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
in some ways a Kenku lying is easier, they just repeat the wrong phrase, it will be the body language that gives them away as opposed to inflection in the voice.
"My name is Steve." "Today is Tuesday." "The treasure is to my right." There are a lot of things a kenku could hear that were true when someone else said them but lies when the kenku says them.
Perhaps that's why the kenku stat block has expertise in Deception (+4 Deception = 2 x proficiency 2 + Cha 0).
By the way this sounds, this is going to be weird, and more of a challenge then I thought, but not in a bad way. To make a character I mean.
Not really my players roleplay in the 3rd person and not the first, so makes no difference.
Why is there an assumption that it has to be a phrase?
"You can mimic sounds you have heard, including voices."
You can just weave together words you heard from different people, sure all words would sound differently if it was heard from a woman, a child, a raging orc or a calm druid. Or they can laugh like a child, or like a drunken dwarf, as they see fit. As per my understanding the Kengu does not "speak", it repeats the sound of the words exactly as it heard it (and of course understands the meaning). As per my understanding they don't have a standard voice, that is their own.
"A creature that hears the sounds you make can tell they are imitations with a successful Wisdom (Insight) check opposed by your Charisma (Deception) check."
I guess this applies if you want to impersonate someone.
I see. You never clarified if you were going to be playing the PC race or the monster.
I have to say, playing a kenku NPC is insanely fun, but I can't imagine doing it for a whole campaign.
Oh ya, your right, I didn't. I'm looking to play the Kenku as a player character. But ya, I can see how it would be a challenge to play in a full campaign.