I hear you. "In an uncertain world," to be challenged by uncertain changes to the ecosystem (DDB robust synergy with current D&D) supporting a hobby you're invested in and lean on as something you can depend on for your fun ... it's concerning maybe distressing for lots I'm sure. I'm sorry you feel that way, and while I don't share the feeling, I don't think you're at all wrong feeling so. Hopefully the Sage Advice columns will put things in a clearer light for you in short order.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Hopefully so. If nothing else, there's always the physical books I already own and hundreds of other games out there, so it's not like this will ruin my life or anything. It would just be nice if we could have nice things lol.
No need for a smug face. DDB costs a lot. If you have a lot riding on an outcome, even a small chance of losing is enough to make you concerned and a bit anxious.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I have purchased everything on here so deeply invested and as concerned as anyone else. I'm just not panicking. I don't think anyone should for now, until we know more.
Longtime supporter of DDB here. Been an active user since launch. Not so active on these boards in recent months, but the big news this week has prompted my return.
I know the policy has always been to not give out too much information about what's being worked on behind the scenes. I'm sure this is due to both NDAs from WotC and from the simple desire to not set expectations they aren't 100% sure they'll be able to meet.
However I feel like the recent news does yield some inquiry about the future of DDB, and I feel that paying customers deserve some transparency about our investments into this product.
What we know for sure is that D&D will undergo the next step in its evolution in 2024, and that this evolution is promised to be backwards compatible. We also know that WotC is developing digital tools in house.
What I specifically think we deserve to know is if DDB will be forwards-compatible with this new evolution. We know that DDB is the official digital toolset for D&D 5e, but we don't know if it will continue to be for 5.5e, or whatever the branding for it ends up being. If it will support these new rules, it behooves both Fandom and WotC to provide some reassurance of this.
Realistically, it makes sense that DDB will be able to still license the D&D IP the same way that Roll20 does, but it doesn't make sense for WotC to continue to offer that license when they are now selling a competing product in house.
Maintaining the usual sort of vagueness makes me uneasy about spending more money with either company. If DDB is nearing a wall of obsolescence, do I want to continue to build my collection on the platform? If the next evolution is truly backwards compatible, WotC will certainly offer all legacy 5e resources on their new platform. If WotC would allow their customer base to keep spending money on a platform they no longer plan to support in the future, why should I support their new platform? I understand how DDB would want to keep making sales until they are no longer able to, but it also strikes to the same level of corporate dishonesty if they are taking our money with no plan for what happens beyond 2024. They may not even know yet, but I feel like we should at least know where things stand even if there's no news to report.
My hopes are that this is being done cooperatively, and that DDB is part of the plan for these new digital tools, or at least that the accounts will be linkable and that purchases here will be honored there, but I feel like I know better than to hope for this.
I've been a longtime supporter of DDB and what the team is doing, argued here in the trenches on why it is fair to make people "pay twice" ad nauseam, so it does pain me to write this. My hopes are that this will be addressed in some part on tomorrow's Dev Update, but that has also seemed to be more of a produced broadcast with less room for deep dive Q&As than it did with Adam at the helm. The few questions that get asked seem to be curated to fit the theme of the episode, so I hope these concerns at least reach the ears that need them.
I am guessing you are quite young because you seem not understand how business works in the slightest.
If WOTC screwed over DDB, their company would be over period, no if ands or buts, D&D would die, everyone would hate them, every partner, every D&D customer.
If WOTC screwed over DDB, their company would be over period, no if ands or buts, D&D would die, everyone would hate them, every partner, every D&D customer.
Most D&D customers are barely aware of DDB's existence, if at all. As for screwing over, let's be objective here: WotC and DDB have a business relationship, with DDB taking out a licence from WotC and a contract that stipulates terms and conditions. Business relationhips end at some point. I'm sure the contract has stipulations about its length and under what conditions either party could choose to end it. I'm certainly not hoping for WotC and DDB to call it quits and assuming the backwards compatibility promise holds true I think there's a good chance that won't be the case, but I'm realistic about it - DDB isn't going to be WotC's partner forever and ever.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
If WOTC screwed over DDB, their company would be over period, no if ands or buts, D&D would die, everyone would hate them, every partner, every D&D customer.
Most D&D customers are barely aware of DDB's existence, if at all. As for screwing over, let's be objective here: WotC and DDB have a business relationship, with DDB taking out a licence from WotC and a contract that stipulates terms and conditions. Business relationhips end at some point. I'm sure the contract has stipulations about its length and under what conditions either party could choose to end it. I'm certainly not hoping for WotC and DDB to call it quits and assuming the backwards compatibility promise holds true I think there's a good chance that won't be the case, but I'm realistic about it - DDB isn't going to be WotC's partner forever and ever.
I daresay that the contract stipulates that it's for certain editions of D&D or at least a length of time, or both. No business that has an ounce of sense would sell the licence for in pepertuity if they can help it. The want the bargaining power that comes with increased content etc.
That's not to say that they won't renew or are unlikely to. Only that the idea that it's a backstab is unfounded. My bet is that the licence will have been stipulated to end with (or at least not include) this new version. I also believe that they'll negotiate an extension to the licence, and we won't know any different.
However, belief isn't knowledge, which is the insecurity.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
To be honest, just a simple "Patience, young padawan," from someone official would make me feel a lot better. Just some indication that we're not on our own out here, left to make purchasing decisions in a total information vacuum. I know it's probably more on WotC than DDB to make those kinds of announcements, but as long as there's total radio silence on this issue, I can't help but start to think that the "THEY'RE GONNA DELETE THE SERVERS ONE DAY" people I used to argue against had a more valid point than I was willing to recognize at the time.
I'll post the question respectfully in the Dev Update chat and see if anything gets said at all, but my hopes aren't high. I know being a pessimist upsets people who come to this hobby and this message board for positive escape, so I apologize for that. I've been on Team DDB-Is-Awesome since launch, so I don't particularly enjoy feeling like I'm on the other side now. But if we could all just consciously decide how to feel about things, the world would be a very different place.
I am guessing you are quite young because you seem not understand how business works in the slightest.
If WOTC screwed over DDB, their company would be over period, no if ands or buts, D&D would die, everyone would hate them, every partner, every D&D customer.
They are not idiots.
[REDACTED]
You do realise that DnDBeyond is not the be all and end all of the D&D player base right? There are literally thousands of gaming retailers and outlets , multiple conventions and millions of clubs and individual players in my country alone. I had barely even heard of this place before the Covid lockdown, and neither had any of my friends. You are seriously overestimating [REDACTED] this website's importance if you think that this site going dark will even be noticed by WoTC let alone cause the end of all D&D. I was playing before you were born and will still be playing long after this website cesses to exist.
Well Joe addressed it. It was a non-answer, but it was an acknowledgement that these concerns are being listened to, which is consistent with my past experiences here.
I'm shifting my feelings to cautiously optimistic at this point.
Haha as I type this he actually answered my submitted question, and used the word "excited". So that gives me more hope.
but as long as there's total radio silence on this issue
It's been like a day, my man
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I am guessing you are quite young because you seem not understand how business works in the slightest.
If WOTC screwed over DDB, their company would be over period, no if ands or buts, D&D would die, everyone would hate them, every partner, every D&D customer.
They are not idiots.
[REDACTED]
You do realise that DnDBeyond is not the be all and end all of the D&D player base right? There are literally thousands of gaming retailers and outlets , multiple conventions and millions of clubs and individual players in my country alone. I had barely even heard of this place before the Covid lockdown, and neither had any of my friends. You are seriously overestimating [REDACTED] this website's importance if you think that this site going dark will even be noticed by WoTC let alone cause the end of all D&D. I was playing before you were born and will still be playing long after this website cesses to exist.
Again, you are not understanding how the world works (watch Bo Burnhams special)
Its not just the loss of DDB and the millions of people that have come here, its the devastating publicity that would follow. There were tons of people annoyed about the Dragon lance book issue, it spawned many blogs and videos, but that is a drop in the ocean compared to the wave of anger that would be created from losing DDB.
Not only that, OP is creating new issues out of thin air, there was nothing WOTC said that suggests DDB would change, sure they will have more digital "stuff" but that "stuff" is not to replace the premier character builder that has allowed them to SELL 2 COPIES per person of all the source books for a massive following (sure many only buy one copy).
So no indication, NO INCENTIVE, to screwing people.
but as long as there's total radio silence on this issue
It's been like a day, my man
Well I had my days mixed up when I originally posted this. I thought it was Thursday yesterday because it's been a busy week, so I expected a Dev Update shortly after and not having to let this stew for as long as it did. But yeah they mentioned it during the Dev Update today so I'm pacified for now.
There was a survey that went out a few months ago that showed certain users a preview video of an in-house digital character sheet tool in development. Comments at the Celebration event seemed to confirm the contents of that video. These concerns are not out of thin air. I didn't want to reference that video because it never leaked so it does kind of put it in a hearsay category, even though enough people said they saw it to make it certainly seem legitimate.
As far as WHY WotC would do something that would upset so many customers, it's a matter of projected growth.
I listen to heavy metal music, and it's not uncommon for some very successful metal bands to eventually lighten their sound into a more modern rock direction. Many metal fans see this as a betrayal, that the band is turning their backs on the fans who got them there. But the new sound is way more accessible and radio friendly, so the band takes that risk. Maybe that was the music the band always wanted to make in the first place. Maybe they are just chasing trends. Some fans like the change and stay with them, some fans do walk away, but the millions of new fans the new sound gains them makes the band have zero regrets.
And let's not forget that WotC isn't at the top of the chain either. Ultimately the buck stops with Hasbro, a huge company with shareholders who want to see growth and likely don't have any loyalties to the D&D community and only see it as a profitable brand. If they think changes will impact their investment returns with a net gain, that's all that matters.
But as stated above, Joe said in the Dev Update that he was excited about the things he can't talk about yet, so my concern is considerably lessened, but I find it rude to say it was a silly concern to begin with.
Its not just the loss of DDB and the millions of people that have come here, its the devastating publicity that would follow. There were tons of people annoyed about the Dragon lance book issue, it spawned many blogs and videos, but that is a drop in the ocean compared to the wave of anger that would be created from losing DDB.
Not only that, OP is creating new issues out of thin air, there was nothing WOTC said that suggests DDB would change, sure they will have more digital "stuff" but that "stuff" is not to replace the premier character builder that has allowed them to SELL 2 COPIES per person of all the source books for a massive following (sure many only buy one copy).
I'm completely sure that the vast majority of people who'd have a problem with WotC ending their business relationship with DDB (which would still be a minority of customers in the first place) would be more upset about the money they spent here than about the consequences for DDB as a company. As for selling 2 copies of all sourcebooks, I think you lost sight of the effect content sharing has had on those sales. If anything WotC might be looking for ways to push traffic to local stores, which are likely more effective for bringing in new players than DDB and which undeniably lose customers to DDB.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I mean, not saying this is what I think is going to happen because I obviously don't know, but I think something like this seems more likely if the relationship between DDB and WotC were to change:
- Hasbro develops in house D&D VTT, released alongside new evolution of D&D core books. These books and app are developed in tandem and the app is treated as a preferred vendor. Hasbro does not extend OGL into the evolution edition, making them the primary source for any new digital resources. WotC has free reign to offer all-inclusive subscription service instead of just piecemeal sales, so no one feels like they're buying anything twice, but rather just paying for access. (I've never been in favor of a subscription over what we have, but the demand has definitely always been present.)
- Existing contracts between licensees expire, WotC either does not renew or sets new terms. No grounds for anyone to sue.
- Multimedia brand expansion (Movies/TV shows currently in development, more video games, toys, etc) creates new accessibility and market share, exploding the D&D user base even further. The TTRPG product line may no longer even serve as the primary revenue source for the brand (look at Marvel for an example).
- 3rd Party vendors (such as Fandom, Roll20, etc) are allowed to continue support for legacy D&D products (like 5.0e) for their existing user base. D&D Beyond rebrands to something like RPG Beyond and is now free to support 3rd party 5e products and possibly other game systems, as they are no longer bound by their preferred vendor license.
- Existing DDB users are still able to create and use 5.0e characters, but do not have access to new features in the evolution version. Users can still play with these characters in evolution version games due to backwards compatibility, possibly even with cross-compatibility between the apps. But if they want the new features for their character, they have to move to the WotC platform.
- Some users will be upset about these changes. A partition of those will leave the game, but some will begrudgingly move with the current. Some will excitedly accept the changes, and some will be indifferent and just play what their friends play. Due to previously mentioned brand expansion, far more users are gained than lost. New users will buy into the evolution version as their first and most convenient exposure to the game and will shape the community going forward.
EDIT: I guess the post I was responding to got deleted. Sorry for the rant that seems like it's out of nowhere...
I hear you. "In an uncertain world," to be challenged by uncertain changes to the ecosystem (DDB robust synergy with current D&D) supporting a hobby you're invested in and lean on as something you can depend on for your fun ... it's concerning maybe distressing for lots I'm sure. I'm sorry you feel that way, and while I don't share the feeling, I don't think you're at all wrong feeling so. Hopefully the Sage Advice columns will put things in a clearer light for you in short order.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Hopefully so. If nothing else, there's always the physical books I already own and hundreds of other games out there, so it's not like this will ruin my life or anything. It would just be nice if we could have nice things lol.
Purely hypothetical here but what if WotC have already contracted DDB to make a VTT for D&D5.5e and given them a 2024 timeline to get this done?
My money's on this ^ and I will refer to this post with a smug grin in ~3 years from now.
!RemindMe - 5.5e release date - Jeremy Clarkson - Smug Face.gif
No need for a smug face. DDB costs a lot. If you have a lot riding on an outcome, even a small chance of losing is enough to make you concerned and a bit anxious.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
^ Just a joke, pal!
I have purchased everything on here so deeply invested and as concerned as anyone else. I'm just not panicking. I don't think anyone should for now, until we know more.
I am guessing you are quite young because you seem not understand how business works in the slightest.
If WOTC screwed over DDB, their company would be over period, no if ands or buts, D&D would die, everyone would hate them, every partner, every D&D customer.
They are not idiots.
[REDACTED]
I'm 38. And I would hope that you're right. I would certainly reconsider giving any more of my money to WotC if they did my DDB dirty like that.
Most D&D customers are barely aware of DDB's existence, if at all. As for screwing over, let's be objective here: WotC and DDB have a business relationship, with DDB taking out a licence from WotC and a contract that stipulates terms and conditions. Business relationhips end at some point. I'm sure the contract has stipulations about its length and under what conditions either party could choose to end it. I'm certainly not hoping for WotC and DDB to call it quits and assuming the backwards compatibility promise holds true I think there's a good chance that won't be the case, but I'm realistic about it - DDB isn't going to be WotC's partner forever and ever.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I daresay that the contract stipulates that it's for certain editions of D&D or at least a length of time, or both. No business that has an ounce of sense would sell the licence for in pepertuity if they can help it. The want the bargaining power that comes with increased content etc.
That's not to say that they won't renew or are unlikely to. Only that the idea that it's a backstab is unfounded. My bet is that the licence will have been stipulated to end with (or at least not include) this new version. I also believe that they'll negotiate an extension to the licence, and we won't know any different.
However, belief isn't knowledge, which is the insecurity.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
To be honest, just a simple "Patience, young padawan," from someone official would make me feel a lot better. Just some indication that we're not on our own out here, left to make purchasing decisions in a total information vacuum. I know it's probably more on WotC than DDB to make those kinds of announcements, but as long as there's total radio silence on this issue, I can't help but start to think that the "THEY'RE GONNA DELETE THE SERVERS ONE DAY" people I used to argue against had a more valid point than I was willing to recognize at the time.
I'll post the question respectfully in the Dev Update chat and see if anything gets said at all, but my hopes aren't high. I know being a pessimist upsets people who come to this hobby and this message board for positive escape, so I apologize for that. I've been on Team DDB-Is-Awesome since launch, so I don't particularly enjoy feeling like I'm on the other side now. But if we could all just consciously decide how to feel about things, the world would be a very different place.
You do realise that DnDBeyond is not the be all and end all of the D&D player base right? There are literally thousands of gaming retailers and outlets , multiple conventions and millions of clubs and individual players in my country alone. I had barely even heard of this place before the Covid lockdown, and neither had any of my friends. You are seriously overestimating [REDACTED] this website's importance if you think that this site going dark will even be noticed by WoTC let alone cause the end of all D&D. I was playing before you were born and will still be playing long after this website cesses to exist.
Well Joe addressed it. It was a non-answer, but it was an acknowledgement that these concerns are being listened to, which is consistent with my past experiences here.
I'm shifting my feelings to cautiously optimistic at this point.
Haha as I type this he actually answered my submitted question, and used the word "excited". So that gives me more hope.
It's been like a day, my man
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Again, you are not understanding how the world works (watch Bo Burnhams special)
Its not just the loss of DDB and the millions of people that have come here, its the devastating publicity that would follow. There were tons of people annoyed about the Dragon lance book issue, it spawned many blogs and videos, but that is a drop in the ocean compared to the wave of anger that would be created from losing DDB.
Not only that, OP is creating new issues out of thin air, there was nothing WOTC said that suggests DDB would change, sure they will have more digital "stuff" but that "stuff" is not to replace the premier character builder that has allowed them to SELL 2 COPIES per person of all the source books for a massive following (sure many only buy one copy).
So no indication, NO INCENTIVE, to screwing people.
Its a silly concern.
Well I had my days mixed up when I originally posted this. I thought it was Thursday yesterday because it's been a busy week, so I expected a Dev Update shortly after and not having to let this stew for as long as it did. But yeah they mentioned it during the Dev Update today so I'm pacified for now.
There was a survey that went out a few months ago that showed certain users a preview video of an in-house digital character sheet tool in development. Comments at the Celebration event seemed to confirm the contents of that video. These concerns are not out of thin air. I didn't want to reference that video because it never leaked so it does kind of put it in a hearsay category, even though enough people said they saw it to make it certainly seem legitimate.
As far as WHY WotC would do something that would upset so many customers, it's a matter of projected growth.
I listen to heavy metal music, and it's not uncommon for some very successful metal bands to eventually lighten their sound into a more modern rock direction. Many metal fans see this as a betrayal, that the band is turning their backs on the fans who got them there. But the new sound is way more accessible and radio friendly, so the band takes that risk. Maybe that was the music the band always wanted to make in the first place. Maybe they are just chasing trends. Some fans like the change and stay with them, some fans do walk away, but the millions of new fans the new sound gains them makes the band have zero regrets.
And let's not forget that WotC isn't at the top of the chain either. Ultimately the buck stops with Hasbro, a huge company with shareholders who want to see growth and likely don't have any loyalties to the D&D community and only see it as a profitable brand. If they think changes will impact their investment returns with a net gain, that's all that matters.
But as stated above, Joe said in the Dev Update that he was excited about the things he can't talk about yet, so my concern is considerably lessened, but I find it rude to say it was a silly concern to begin with.
I must say that I have the same concern as AdventureFight.
I'm completely sure that the vast majority of people who'd have a problem with WotC ending their business relationship with DDB (which would still be a minority of customers in the first place) would be more upset about the money they spent here than about the consequences for DDB as a company. As for selling 2 copies of all sourcebooks, I think you lost sight of the effect content sharing has had on those sales. If anything WotC might be looking for ways to push traffic to local stores, which are likely more effective for bringing in new players than DDB and which undeniably lose customers to DDB.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I mean, not saying this is what I think is going to happen because I obviously don't know, but I think something like this seems more likely if the relationship between DDB and WotC were to change:
- Hasbro develops in house D&D VTT, released alongside new evolution of D&D core books. These books and app are developed in tandem and the app is treated as a preferred vendor. Hasbro does not extend OGL into the evolution edition, making them the primary source for any new digital resources. WotC has free reign to offer all-inclusive subscription service instead of just piecemeal sales, so no one feels like they're buying anything twice, but rather just paying for access. (I've never been in favor of a subscription over what we have, but the demand has definitely always been present.)
- Existing contracts between licensees expire, WotC either does not renew or sets new terms. No grounds for anyone to sue.
- Multimedia brand expansion (Movies/TV shows currently in development, more video games, toys, etc) creates new accessibility and market share, exploding the D&D user base even further. The TTRPG product line may no longer even serve as the primary revenue source for the brand (look at Marvel for an example).
- 3rd Party vendors (such as Fandom, Roll20, etc) are allowed to continue support for legacy D&D products (like 5.0e) for their existing user base. D&D Beyond rebrands to something like RPG Beyond and is now free to support 3rd party 5e products and possibly other game systems, as they are no longer bound by their preferred vendor license.
- Existing DDB users are still able to create and use 5.0e characters, but do not have access to new features in the evolution version. Users can still play with these characters in evolution version games due to backwards compatibility, possibly even with cross-compatibility between the apps. But if they want the new features for their character, they have to move to the WotC platform.
- Some users will be upset about these changes. A partition of those will leave the game, but some will begrudgingly move with the current. Some will excitedly accept the changes, and some will be indifferent and just play what their friends play. Due to previously mentioned brand expansion, far more users are gained than lost. New users will buy into the evolution version as their first and most convenient exposure to the game and will shape the community going forward.
EDIT: I guess the post I was responding to got deleted. Sorry for the rant that seems like it's out of nowhere...