I have very little to offer on the topic of paladins, since I have yet to play one, but I have played in campaigns with them twice. Both times I was a cleric and both times my clerics were vastly different from the paladins. Granted, these were campaigns that were below level 10, but I really did not get the sense at all that the paladins were stepping into my lane. In fact, between both campaigns, I believe the paladins had healed only a handful of times between them, usually during short rests too.
This has been my experience as well. Other than a small number of spells, there really isn't any overlap in abilities between Paladin and Cleric.
I think it was obvious that he was talking about the main action, not bonus actions. Of course, you can take a bonus action on top, but you are limited; Yurei was saying that you generally can't cast fireball or any other spell that takes an action to cast as well as getting the second attack action.
There are still abilities that allow you to cast a non bonus action spell and attack, a fighters action surge, an eldritch knight’s level 7 ability and a blade dancer’s level 6 ability are just 3 off the top of my head.
And that helps Paladins and Rangers how?
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I think it was obvious that he was talking about the main action, not bonus actions. Of course, you can take a bonus action on top, but you are limited; Yurei was saying that you generally can't cast fireball or any other spell that takes an action to cast as well as getting the second attack action.
There are still abilities that allow you to cast a non bonus action spell and attack, a fighters action surge, an eldritch knight’s level 7 ability and a blade dancer’s level 6 ability are just 3 off the top of my head.
And that helps Paladins and Rangers how?
I literally said these are examples off the top of my head. [REDACTED]
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I think it was obvious that he was talking about the main action, not bonus actions. Of course, you can take a bonus action on top, but you are limited; Yurei was saying that you generally can't cast fireball or any other spell that takes an action to cast as well as getting the second attack action.
There are still abilities that allow you to cast a non bonus action spell and attack, a fighters action surge, an eldritch knight’s level 7 ability and a blade dancer’s level 6 ability are just 3 off the top of my head.
Action Surge is still costing you a full attack so it doesn't really help. The Eldritch Knight ability is mildly useful at level 7-10 due to the existence of Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade, but is useless at level 11+ (attack+cantrip is worse than attack 3x). The bladesinger ability is comparable to the eldritch knight ability, though since bladesingers never get a third attack it remains useful. The only features that let you cast a leveled spell as well as attacking are sorcery points, Valor Bard battle magic (level 14), and Eldritch Knight Improved War Magic (level 18).
I think it was obvious that he was talking about the main action, not bonus actions. Of course, you can take a bonus action on top, but you are limited; Yurei was saying that you generally can't cast fireball or any other spell that takes an action to cast as well as getting the second attack action.
There are still abilities that allow you to cast a non bonus action spell and attack, a fighters action surge, an eldritch knight’s level 7 ability and a blade dancer’s level 6 ability are just 3 off the top of my head.
And that helps Paladins and Rangers how?
I literally said these are examples off the top of my head. [REDACTED]
And the conversation was explicitly about Paladins and Rangers. Specifically, that they have to choose between casting specific spells and using their extra attacks.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I think it was obvious that he was talking about the main action, not bonus actions. Of course, you can take a bonus action on top, but you are limited; Yurei was saying that you generally can't cast fireball or any other spell that takes an action to cast as well as getting the second attack action.
There are still abilities that allow you to cast a non bonus action spell and attack, a fighters action surge, an eldritch knight’s level 7 ability and a blade dancer’s level 6 ability are just 3 off the top of my head.
Action Surge is still costing you a full attack so it doesn't really help. The Eldritch Knight ability is mildly useful at level 7-10 due to the existence of Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade, but is useless at level 11+ (attack+cantrip is worse than attack 3x). The bladesinger ability is comparable to the eldritch knight ability, though since bladesingers never get a third attack it remains useful. The only features that let you cast a leveled spell as well as attacking are sorcery points, Valor Bard battle magic (level 14), and Eldritch Knight Improved War Magic (level 18).
The best use for War Magic is if you had a non-damaging cantrip that you needed to use for some reason, but that's still not a terribly optimal idea.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I went and looked at war magic since I wasn’t familiar with it. At L7 it grants a bonus action attack if your action was a cantrip, at L18 it grants a bonus action attack with a leveled spell attack action - so the ranger casts a bonus action spell and gets her 2 attacks , while the Eldritch Knight casts a cantrip and gets a single bonus action attack- is it just me or is there really very little difference here? Frankly it looks like the L5 ranger has the better deal: a L1/2 bonus action spell and 2 melee/missile attacks. Only action surge allows you to both take your regular attack and cast any leveled spell you have in the same round - once per long rest. Very powerful that round I grant but afterwards your dead in the water- either attack or cast not both, the ranger and Paladin can keep going at least a few more rounds even if they are having to caste each round due to concentration check failures.
I went and looked at war magic since I wasn’t familiar with it. At L7 it grants a bonus action attack if your action was a cantrip, at L18 it grants a bonus action attack with a leveled spell attack action - so the ranger casts a bonus action spell and gets her 2 attacks , while the Eldritch Knight casts a cantrip and gets a single bonus action attack- is it just me or is there really very little difference here? Frankly it looks like the L5 ranger has the better deal: a L1/2 bonus action spell and 2 melee/missile attacks.
There's a reason the eldritch knight is mostly ignored: it's just not very good (it's not even a half-caster, it's a 1/3 caster).
As bad as it may be it’s still probably better than a fighter and mage/sorceror multiclass. Especially at tiers 1&2 simply because they have ways to both cast and melee in a single round.
I think it was obvious that he was talking about the main action, not bonus actions. Of course, you can take a bonus action on top, but you are limited; Yurei was saying that you generally can't cast fireball or any other spell that takes an action to cast as well as getting the second attack action.
There are still abilities that allow you to cast a non bonus action spell and attack, a fighters action surge, an eldritch knight’s level 7 ability and a blade dancer’s level 6 ability are just 3 off the top of my head.
And that helps Paladins and Rangers how?
I literally said these are examples off the top of my head. [REDACTED]
And the conversation was explicitly about Paladins and Rangers. Specifically, that they have to choose between casting specific spells and using their extra attacks.
They do, but honestly I think it's fine. Not only do they have bonus action spell options for both classes but they're not intended to be rivaling clerics and wizards and sorcerers with their magic. They're primarily martial classes with some magical ability for support or to buff their martial prowess. Paladin is a pretty solid class and IMO Ranger's issues have nothing to do with the fact that it loses out on extra attack if it casts a main action sepll.
Let’s see: max AC 25 (+3 studded leather, +5 Dex bonus,+5 intel. Bonus) vs Ranger: max AC 26 (+3 half plate, +3 shield, +2 Dex bonus, defender fighting style) slight edge to ranger. max speed: 45’ vs ranger 35’ , advantage on acrobatics vs ranger- possible proficiency with acrobatics, advantage on concentration saves -ranger has none (without feats and I’m leaving all feats out) edge clearly goes to blade singer. L9 spells max for blade singer vs L5 spells max for ranger - clear edge to blade singer. 2 attacks + bonus action max for blade singer including 1cantrip + 1 melee vs 3+ attacks + bonus action max including 1 leveled spell and 3+ melee/missile attacks - edge to ranger but exact amount of edge varies by subclass. stealth and wilderness survival abilities by background vs stealth and wilderness survival abilities as class abilities (stealth for both by chosen skill but more likely to be chosen by ranger in my opinion) edge to ranger - I’ll grant that this all to frequently ignored in campaigns but it shouldn’t be so I’ve included it here if only for completeness. Mostly because of the levels of spells they can slinging have to agree with you but the ranger gives it a pretty good run for its money otherwise. Stacked up against pretty much any martial/caster MC the ranger is pretty hard to beat.
I have very little to offer on the topic of paladins, since I have yet to play one, but I have played in campaigns with them twice. Both times I was a cleric and both times my clerics were vastly different from the paladins. Granted, these were campaigns that were below level 10, but I really did not get the sense at all that the paladins were stepping into my lane. In fact, between both campaigns, I believe the paladins had healed only a handful of times between them, usually during short rests too.
This has been my experience as well. Other than a small number of spells, there really isn't any overlap in abilities between Paladin and Cleric.
I agree. A Paladin (to me) is a fighting class who CAN cast spells. The Cleric is a casting class that CAN fight. Sure, there is some overlap in the Healing department but Rangers can heal...Bards can heal...it's not that uncommon. The Paladin is the guy who should be figuring out how his spells can enable him to hit harder (like Smites) where the Cleric should be thinking of how his fighting can supplement his casting.
Most of the 11th level sub class abilities grant a way to make a third attack.
Um...not exactly. If you're talking Hunters exclusively then Rangers can make additional Attacks IF their targets are close together which is NOT the same as making an additional Attack all the time. The Beast Master can command its beast to make an additional Attack but that won't benefit from the Ranger's stat bonuses or Hunter's Mark. Same thing for the Fey Wanderer who can summon a Fey for an hour but the stat/magic buffs don't carry over. The Gloom Stalker can turn a MISS into another Attack but that means that if they hit they only get their base number. Monster Slayer and Swarm Keeper don't have anything at 11 that grants an extra attack.
The fighter gets a third attack at L11, the ranger has a way to get a third attack - situational and not always optimal but a way, the sword dancer has No way, that was my point.
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Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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This has been my experience as well. Other than a small number of spells, there really isn't any overlap in abilities between Paladin and Cleric.
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And that helps Paladins and Rangers how?
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I literally said these are examples off the top of my head. [REDACTED]
Action Surge is still costing you a full attack so it doesn't really help. The Eldritch Knight ability is mildly useful at level 7-10 due to the existence of Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade, but is useless at level 11+ (attack+cantrip is worse than attack 3x). The bladesinger ability is comparable to the eldritch knight ability, though since bladesingers never get a third attack it remains useful. The only features that let you cast a leveled spell as well as attacking are sorcery points, Valor Bard battle magic (level 14), and Eldritch Knight Improved War Magic (level 18).
And the conversation was explicitly about Paladins and Rangers. Specifically, that they have to choose between casting specific spells and using their extra attacks.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
The best use for War Magic is if you had a non-damaging cantrip that you needed to use for some reason, but that's still not a terribly optimal idea.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I went and looked at war magic since I wasn’t familiar with it. At L7 it grants a bonus action attack if your action was a cantrip, at L18 it grants a bonus action attack with a leveled spell attack action - so the ranger casts a bonus action spell and gets her 2 attacks , while the Eldritch Knight casts a cantrip and gets a single bonus action attack- is it just me or is there really very little difference here? Frankly it looks like the L5 ranger has the better deal: a L1/2 bonus action spell and 2 melee/missile attacks. Only action surge allows you to both take your regular attack and cast any leveled spell you have in the same round - once per long rest. Very powerful that round I grant but afterwards your dead in the water- either attack or cast not both, the ranger and Paladin can keep going at least a few more rounds even if they are having to caste each round due to concentration check failures.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
There's a reason the eldritch knight is mostly ignored: it's just not very good (it's not even a half-caster, it's a 1/3 caster).
As bad as it may be it’s still probably better than a fighter and mage/sorceror multiclass. Especially at tiers 1&2 simply because they have ways to both cast and melee in a single round.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
But a Bladesinger is still the best mage-knight available in 5E.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
They do, but honestly I think it's fine. Not only do they have bonus action spell options for both classes but they're not intended to be rivaling clerics and wizards and sorcerers with their magic. They're primarily martial classes with some magical ability for support or to buff their martial prowess. Paladin is a pretty solid class and IMO Ranger's issues have nothing to do with the fact that it loses out on extra attack if it casts a main action sepll.
Hexblade would like a word with you...
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
Let’s see: max AC 25 (+3 studded leather, +5 Dex bonus,+5 intel. Bonus) vs Ranger: max AC 26 (+3 half plate, +3 shield, +2 Dex bonus, defender fighting style) slight edge to ranger.
max speed: 45’ vs ranger 35’ , advantage on acrobatics vs ranger- possible proficiency with acrobatics, advantage on concentration saves -ranger has none (without feats and I’m leaving all feats out) edge clearly goes to blade singer.
L9 spells max for blade singer vs L5 spells max for ranger - clear edge to blade singer.
2 attacks + bonus action max for blade singer including 1cantrip + 1 melee vs 3+ attacks + bonus action max including 1 leveled spell and 3+ melee/missile attacks - edge to ranger but exact amount of edge varies by subclass.
stealth and wilderness survival abilities by background vs stealth and wilderness survival abilities as class abilities (stealth for both by chosen skill but more likely to be chosen by ranger in my opinion) edge to ranger - I’ll grant that this all to frequently ignored in campaigns but it shouldn’t be so I’ve included it here if only for completeness.
Mostly because of the levels of spells they can slinging have to agree with you but the ranger gives it a pretty good run for its money otherwise. Stacked up against pretty much any martial/caster MC the ranger is pretty hard to beat.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Rat do a side by side comparison and show us.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
How exactly is the ranger getting three attacks on a single attack action?
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Most of the 11th level sub class abilities grant a way to make a third attack.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Eh, Artificer (Armorer or Battle Smith), Bard (Swords or Valor), and Warlock (Hexblade) are all reasonable choices as well.
I agree. A Paladin (to me) is a fighting class who CAN cast spells. The Cleric is a casting class that CAN fight. Sure, there is some overlap in the Healing department but Rangers can heal...Bards can heal...it's not that uncommon. The Paladin is the guy who should be figuring out how his spells can enable him to hit harder (like Smites) where the Cleric should be thinking of how his fighting can supplement his casting.
Um...not exactly. If you're talking Hunters exclusively then Rangers can make additional Attacks IF their targets are close together which is NOT the same as making an additional Attack all the time. The Beast Master can command its beast to make an additional Attack but that won't benefit from the Ranger's stat bonuses or Hunter's Mark. Same thing for the Fey Wanderer who can summon a Fey for an hour but the stat/magic buffs don't carry over. The Gloom Stalker can turn a MISS into another Attack but that means that if they hit they only get their base number. Monster Slayer and Swarm Keeper don't have anything at 11 that grants an extra attack.
The fighter gets a third attack at L11, the ranger has a way to get a third attack - situational and not always optimal but a way, the sword dancer has No way, that was my point.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.