I have magic item shops. But they are rare in and of themself. That’s the great thing about D&D, you can do whatever you want regardless of what the book says. I think the tricky part is trying to make money useful in other ways than just buying and selling goods. Bribery, gaining access to place that is off limits, etc…
This exists, so I guess Magic, the Gathering rules are also 5e RAW now? Who knew? Guess even martial classes need to tap mana to attack now....
Seriously, you are really stretching the definitions of RAW here.
Are the MtG rules about dnd? No, so stop being so dramatic. Is that particular world of MtG now part of DnD, yes. Are the rules in that book RAW and Canon for that world, yes. You ignore everything you don't agree with and twist peoples meaning. Rules as written indeed say that magic items should be rare and should be sold at best like you have said through auctions, in the dmg and Xanathar. Rules as written it also says that DM's can ignore rules if they conflict with what they and their party want to achieve. Problem is that every setting published ignores the rule of having no magic shops, that every table except one I've played at since 1984 ignores that ruling in one way or another. And in all those years we never had problems with that. The only time we had a problem with following that rule was when we had no magic shops and started to mess with the world because we were filthy rich, leading to three reboots and a violent crash of that table.
This exists, so I guess Magic, the Gathering rules are also 5e RAW now? Who knew? Guess even martial classes need to tap mana to attack now....
Seriously, you are really stretching the definitions of RAW here.
I wouldn't go with the term RAW myself (and haven't). Setting details aren't part of a ruleset. The stores are canon in an official setting sourcebook published by WotC though (the Vagrant at least; Gilmore's is in the Tal'Dorei book, which is third party). I thought you were looking for examples of magical shops in Exandria though. Gilmore's is the upscale private one, where all up to and including very rare items can be bought, as well as one or two legendary ones. The Vagrant is an annex of the Cerberus Academy and because of the war effort requiring deliveries to the Crownsguard take priority Pumat Sol usually only has a handful or so items in stock and custom orders can take some time to fill.
Well I am arguing against people insisting they are RAW.
Where in Wildemount is the Vagrant mentioned? I can't find it on any search nor even any obvious reference to the Cerberus Academy but rather the Cerberus Assembly, which makes no such mention.
That's fine, just saying - you've literally asked where there are shops in the books and well, here's an answer. The Vagrant has a small blurb in the Zadash part of the gazetteer (scroll all the way down). The wiki has more info, and obviously so does the show itself.
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This exists, so I guess Magic, the Gathering rules are also 5e RAW now? Who knew? Guess even martial classes need to tap mana to attack now....
Seriously, you are really stretching the definitions of RAW here.
Are the MtG rules about dnd? No, so stop being so dramatic. Is that particular world of MtG now part of DnD, yes. Are the rules in that book RAW and Canon for that world, yes. You ignore everything you don't agree with and twist peoples meaning. Rules as written indeed say that magic items should be rare and should be sold at best like you have said through auctions, in the dmg and Xanathar. Rules as written it also says that DM's can ignore rules if they conflict with what they and their party want to achieve. Problem is that every setting published ignores the rule of having no magic shops, that every table except one I've played at since 1984 ignores that ruling in one way or another. And in all those years we never had problems with that. The only time we had a problem with following that rule was when we had no magic shops and started to mess with the world because we were filthy rich, leading to three reboots and a violent crash of that table.
That goes both ways, though. When I was saying 'those are at most RAW for those specific settings' (one of which is based on a collectable card game that has shops on a meta level), I was being answered back with snarky 'It is RAW'
Starting to mess with the world because you have not just those levels of gold but also those levels of personal power is a traditional transition for high level campaigns. Magic shops don't really forestall that since that just increases the personal power issue. And no, not all high level campaigns survive that kind of transition.
Nor am I arguing any sort of rule against magic shops either, just that, logically, they imply certain things about the world.
I would say in your logic they imply certain things (which you are completely ok to have) but you should not argue another DM's application of the "economy" of magic items is somehow wrong, claiming a DM's world can't even be low magic with magic shops in it is an argument based on opinion not logic. Many Many logical arguments can be made for making that world exist and work. Having Magic shops does not equal Magic weapons being prevalent through the world and everyone having access to them.
"First of all, whether it is from a 'dungeon' (players in your campaigns routinely raid prisons? Really? Why would there be a ton of valuables in prisons?)"
"First of all, whether it is from a 'dungeon' (players in your campaigns routinely raid prisons? Really? Why would there be a ton of valuables in prisons?)"
Um.
To paraphrase Michael Caine, some people just want to watch the world thread burn
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This exists, so I guess Magic, the Gathering rules are also 5e RAW now? Who knew? Guess even martial classes need to tap mana to attack now....
Seriously, you are really stretching the definitions of RAW here.
I wouldn't go with the term RAW myself (and haven't). Setting details aren't part of a ruleset. The stores are canon in an official setting sourcebook published by WotC though (the Vagrant at least; Gilmore's is in the Tal'Dorei book, which is third party). I thought you were looking for examples of magical shops in Exandria though. Gilmore's is the upscale private one, where all up to and including very rare items can be bought, as well as one or two legendary ones. The Vagrant is an annex of the Cerberus Academy and because of the war effort requiring deliveries to the Crownsguard take priority Pumat Sol usually only has a handful or so items in stock and custom orders can take some time to fill.
Well I am arguing against people insisting they are RAW.
Where in Wildemount is the Vagrant mentioned? I can't find it on any search nor even any obvious reference to the Cerberus Academy but rather the Cerberus Assembly, which makes no such mention.
That's fine, just saying - you've literally asked where there are shops in the books and well, here's an answer. The Vagrant has a small blurb in the Zadash part of the gazetteer (scroll all the way down). The wiki has more info, and obviously so does the show itself.
"This makes the success of the Invulnerable Vagrant, one of the fewmagic item retailers in Wildemount, unique."
So in Wildemount, even to the extent such retailers exist, it would seem that they are exceedingly rare and in fact, the Vagrant is the only such shop that is successful, or at least stays successful without being a private auction, invitation only style shop.
But I do appreciate your finding it. The search engine is really not good.
This exists, so I guess Magic, the Gathering rules are also 5e RAW now? Who knew? Guess even martial classes need to tap mana to attack now....
Seriously, you are really stretching the definitions of RAW here.
I wouldn't go with the term RAW myself (and haven't). Setting details aren't part of a ruleset. The stores are canon in an official setting sourcebook published by WotC though (the Vagrant at least; Gilmore's is in the Tal'Dorei book, which is third party). I thought you were looking for examples of magical shops in Exandria though. Gilmore's is the upscale private one, where all up to and including very rare items can be bought, as well as one or two legendary ones. The Vagrant is an annex of the Cerberus Academy and because of the war effort requiring deliveries to the Crownsguard take priority Pumat Sol usually only has a handful or so items in stock and custom orders can take some time to fill.
Well I am arguing against people insisting they are RAW.
Where in Wildemount is the Vagrant mentioned? I can't find it on any search nor even any obvious reference to the Cerberus Academy but rather the Cerberus Assembly, which makes no such mention.
That's fine, just saying - you've literally asked where there are shops in the books and well, here's an answer. The Vagrant has a small blurb in the Zadash part of the gazetteer (scroll all the way down). The wiki has more info, and obviously so does the show itself.
"This makes the success of the Invulnerable Vagrant, one of the fewmagic item retailers in Wildemount, unique."
So in Wildemount, even to the extent such retailers exist, it would seem that they are exceedingly rare and in fact, the Vagrant is the only such shop that is successful, or at least stays successful without being a private auction, invitation only style shop.
But I do appreciate your finding it. The search engine is really not good.
"One of the few" does not equal "is the only".
I am sure they Mighty Nein have shopped at and bought magic items from other shops around the continent, anyway this has drifted from the original question the answer to which seems to be.
WOTC has not moved DnD away from magic shops, it is very much setting dependant and while the DMG does seem to suggest they should not exist there are plenty of DnD official settings that have them.
If you are looking for ways to spend your players money there are loads of options that are alternatives, from letting them buy a castle and hire the staff to keep it running, to making them pay out for transport and daily living costs.
Again, struck my previous post because it had been handled. Apologies, phone didn't update and show me there was an eleventh page of text.
Anyways.
One issue with the whole "buying/selling/trading/making/finding/interacting-with-in-any-way magic items should be a plot-driving Adventure!" bit - any given game has only so much room for Plot. Say the character's overarching goal is to defeat a powerful red dragon threatening their countryside, and the wizard decides she wants to try and make a cloak of fire resistance for the climactic showdown with the dragon. The druid can contribute some potions of fire resistance as well as a few potions of climbing to help make navigating its treacherous, rocky lair easier. The ranger wants to imbue a quiver of arrows with frost magic, while the cleric seeks to imbue his god's blessing into some charms the party can wear.
DM: "Okay, sounds good so far! So that's gonna be two sessions of Plot-Driven Adventurer(TM) per potion of climbing and four sessions of Plot-Driven Adventure(C) per fire resist potion. Cleric's gonna need six sessions of Plot-Driven Adventure(G) per companion to try and convince Pelor to give you all those temportary boons, looking like one Plot-Driven Adventure(R) session per one of those frost arrows, and I'm gonna want at least twenty sessions of Plot-Driven Adventure(IOU) for that cloak."
Players: "...dude. That's over a year of play just to try and make some basic shit to help deal with this giant ****off dragon, not counting anything else we have to do in the interim!"
DM: "Yep! It's great, isn't it? Think of all the Adventure you're gonna have going out on my scratch-built shopping lists to find the esoteric dire frog gonads needed to make even the most basic of temporary equipment! I know y'all want to feel like you're proactively preparing for this epic struggle against the terrifying boss monster I've got set to raze your village at any time, but we can't be having any of that so you'd best get to collecting ten orc scalps for the local brewer instead, buckos!"
Getting the idea yet? Yeah. COnstantly, constantly, constantly telling the players that they can't do or accomplish any-damn-thing without derailing the game for several months to get it done will swiftly lead to your players not bothering. The "Magnanimous" DM that can't understand why his players are so irritated by him letting them craft whatever they want...in exchange for a six-month subquest for the Golden Goat Dick of Alcatraz and assembling forty thousand gold coins from the Lost Empire of Buttwhistle as the price demanded by the Hermit of Ages in his lonely, CR23 mountain lair - and yes, the lair is challenge rating 23, not the hermit - before they're allowed to generate even a single green item may - just may, mind, but may - need to reassess his priorities.
Again, struck my previous post because it had been handled. Apologies, phone didn't update and show me there was an eleventh page of text.
Anyways.
One issue with the whole "buying/selling/trading/making/finding/interacting-with-in-any-way magic items should be a plot-driving Adventure!" bit - any given game has only so much room for Plot. Say the character's overarching goal is to defeat a powerful red dragon threatening their countryside, and the wizard decides she wants to try and make a cloak of fire resistance for the climactic showdown with the dragon. The druid can contribute some potions of fire resistance as well as a few potions of climbing to help make navigating its treacherous, rocky lair easier. The ranger wants to imbue a quiver of arrows with frost magic, while the cleric seeks to imbue his god's blessing into some charms the party can wear.
DM: "Okay, sounds good so far! So that's gonna be two sessions of Plot-Driven Adventurer(TM) per potion of climbing and four sessions of Plot-Driven Adventure(C) per fire resist potion. Cleric's gonna need six sessions of Plot-Driven Adventure(G) per companion to try and convince Pelor to give you all those temportary boons, looking like one Plot-Driven Adventure(R) session per one of those frost arrows, and I'm gonna want at least twenty sessions of Plot-Driven Adventure(IOU) for that cloak."
Players: "...dude. That's over a year of play just to try and make some basic shit to help deal with this giant ****off dragon, not counting anything else we have to do in the interim!"
DM: "Yep! It's great, isn't it? Think of all the Adventure you're gonna have going out on my scratch-built shopping lists to find the esoteric dire frog gonads needed to make even the most basic of temporary equipment! I know y'all want to feel like you're proactively preparing for this epic struggle against the terrifying boss monster I've got set to raze your village at any time, but we can't be having any of that so you'd best get to collecting ten orc scalps for the local brewer instead, buckos!"
Getting the idea yet? Yeah. COnstantly, constantly, constantly telling the players that they can't do or accomplish any-damn-thing without derailing the game for several months to get it done will swiftly lead to your players not bothering. The "Magnanimous" DM that can't understand why his players are so irritated by him letting them craft whatever they want...in exchange for a six-month subquest for the Golden Goat Dick of Alcatraz and assembling forty thousand gold coins from the Lost Empire of Buttwhistle as the price demanded by the Hermit of Ages in his lonely, CR23 mountain lair - and yes, the lair is challenge rating 23, not the hermit - before they're allowed to generate even a single green item may - just may, mind, but may - need to reassess his priorities.
I mentioned this pages ago. Does not seem to be a concern for most.
As a side note, it is amazing to me that our group does not quest for magic item materials nor costly spell components yet takes over two years to complete a module with weekly sessions. Compared to groups that report they do quest for materials and components and finish modules in mere months....how is this even possible???
I mentioned this pages ago. Does not seem to be a concern for most.
As a side note, it is amazing to me that our group does not quest for magic item materials nor costly spell components yet takes over two years to complete a module with weekly sessions. Compared to groups that report they do quest for materials and components and finish modules in mere months....how is this even possible???
Most of those groups, I imagine, don't bother with characterization or interpersonal moments. They're marches from quest objective to quest objective in a very Skyrim style - walk somewhere, kill something, scoop up loot, walk somewhere else, repeat cycle until DM designated BBEG is no longer an issue. I know my group can "lose" entire sessions with interpersonal issues or even just amusing side anecdotes while they're in a town, and there's times we've gone a couple of months without murdering anything. Magical gear is available for sale in large cities, with Villamoi and especially Laro being places where almost anything can be had for enough coin. Some folks would tell me that's because we're playing the game horribly, horribly wrong and absolutely ruining our campaign forever...but we've been running it for something like two years so far and it hasn't felt ruined to us.
Pardon but it is a ruddy dragon. Why shouldn't it be a big deal? If anyone can just run down to the corner store and come back loaded up with dragon slaying gear, why isn't the army handling the thing?
And we are not talking about 'the most basic of temporary equipment.' You are still sticking to this hyperbole.
And how dare custom gear actually require any effort? Pardon?
Do you, as a DM, appreciate when your players engage with your plotline, try to learn about your enemies, and do their due diligence to prepare ahead of time to stand a better chance of defeating the climactic final encounter you've prepared for them? "Yes, of course!" most DMs say...whilst doing everything in their power to punish players for doing so when they don't outright forbid it. Why attach absolutely ridiculous 'quest' requirements you as a DM know for absolute certain your players will not engage with to even the most basic of attempts to prepare for your Awesome Dragon Showdown, hn?
Whether my players want to go on adventure, run a business or rob nobles for gems, gold, currency etc. to buy that exact item they want; or they want to go on an adventure, run a business or bust down a black market monster parts trade to get the items they need to craft a magical item it's all the same in the end to me.
If you ask a shop keep I'll give you the price. If the characters need information to make an item I'll give you that information pretty readily or just make it available at a library, archive somewhere in the world - the Candlekeep of whichever world we are in. Unless it's some epic one of a kind item that a specific, named in lore NPC made.
I also hand out random "parts" with loot that will often be used in crafting processes especially if there is an artificer in the group or just someone who is interested in crafting things. Mind you the reason I started handing out crafting materials was because my players started asking/collecting them anyway.
Finding gold along your way is no different then finding crafting materials along the way in my campaigns. Sometimes you have everything you need other times you need to get back out there and collect more money/stuff to get what you want.
My players may feel they get the items whenever they want but I set it up to allow them access to the items when I feel appropriate. Overall item shops/crafting is just another level of character customization that I believe should be in every game at some level regardless of the magic level of that campaign.
It's some work to do on the fly as I have no plans to make lists of all the magical items and their components (although I do consult a google sheet that has a bunch of price lists). I also am not against substitutions of like quality and kind of materials. They (almost) never need a specific unicorn horn that has been hit by lightning on the highest peak of the continent during the once a year superstorm. If I'm unsure I let my players know out of character that I'll come back to it. They often suggest things that are harder to obtain then I would and I just run with it because what they suggested is likely something they are interested in doing.
Sometimes they will come up with their own creations based on something they would like an item to do that we hash out outside of the regular session. These can be small things for flavor or bigger items that don't have a lot of representation in the books (like firearms for a tinkerer/gunslinger character).
For the truly epic end game items sometimes the information gathering goes across campaigns. Character A will want a unique item that only Character B has seen in B's campaign and without their (character) knowledge has affected how character A will have to go about getting it. This does require separation of player/character knowledge but it leads to some really interesting discussions and plans outside the games.
All in all I feel giving the players more creative choices with their character can actually make my job of deciding what loot to hand out easier as I can hand out more generic items/any item and they can sell, trade or craft them into what they actually want. I do try my best to provide useful magic items to the characters anyway so they can use them in the mean time or until it's no longer useful at their tier of play and aren't just bag of holding filler.
I'm sure they exist but I haven't had a player who doesn't like being able to choose items occasionally due to it not making sense in the world. Everyone should run their tables to maximize their groups fun though so you all keep doing you.
If it's going to take longer to craft the stuff than it'll take for the dragon to kill everyone you love, then you can't do it. There's no months of play happening: they just don't craft the stuff. They need to go fight the dragon.
Ticking clocks and crafting don't get along. This is known. However, most games are meant to have some downtime. There's rules for it and everything.
Here's the real secret, though. In our current game right now we're going to the Bone Brambles to meet an oracle, on behalf of an NPC. But if someone was trying to make a potion of fire resistance, for example, then the DM could simply erase the NPC. Erase the oracle, too, if he wants to. Because guess where you find the plants needed for the potion? That's right: in the Bone Brambles.
I haven't yet everything here yet but hoped to chip in one thought. Large shops like those in big cities might share info on their inventories with other stores. Postal systems and sending stones could both be used. Chain stores such as those owned by Lionshield Costa (such as in Phandalin) and other socially connected stores might also be happy to receive inventory information.
To transfer items from location to location, capable individuals or groups might have to pay the origin location a considerable monetary sum to take possession of items but be promised payment of a return of that considerable sum + commission. By means such as these, items might be transferred between outlets with ease.
If it's going to take longer to craft the stuff than it'll take for the dragon to kill everyone you love, then you can't do it. There's no months of play happening: they just don't craft the stuff. They need to go fight the dragon.
Ticking clocks and crafting don't get along. This is known. However, most games are meant to have some downtime. There's rules for it and everything.
Here's the real secret, though. In our current game right now we're going to the Bone Brambles to meet an oracle, on behalf of an NPC. But if someone was trying to make a potion of fire resistance, for example, then the DM could simply erase the NPC. Erase the oracle, too, if he wants to. Because guess where you find the plants needed for the potion? That's right: in the Bone Brambles.
Of course. Not all Epic bad Guy Fights are ticking clocks, though. Orcus On His Throne is a thing. And mostly I'm picking on the idea that GMs claim to love it when players do things like engaging with their world and trying to research/prepare for tough encounters, only to go out of their way to make doing so as punitive and impossible as they can.
No adventurer can ever do everything they want to do to prepare. But nor should it be impossible for them to do anything to prepare, either for dire threats they know are coming or for threats they routinely face, which seems to be the overall desire here. "Nobody can fix ANYTHING, you get what the random rolls say you get and that's it."
If it's going to take longer to craft the stuff than it'll take for the dragon to kill everyone you love, then you can't do it. There's no months of play happening: they just don't craft the stuff. They need to go fight the dragon.
Ticking clocks and crafting don't get along. This is known. However, most games are meant to have some downtime. There's rules for it and everything.
Here's the real secret, though. In our current game right now we're going to the Bone Brambles to meet an oracle, on behalf of an NPC. But if someone was trying to make a potion of fire resistance, for example, then the DM could simply erase the NPC. Erase the oracle, too, if he wants to. Because guess where you find the plants needed for the potion? That's right: in the Bone Brambles.
Of course. Not all Epic bad Guy Fights are ticking clocks, though. Orcus On His Throne is a thing. And mostly I'm picking on the idea that GMs claim to love it when players do things like engaging with their world and trying to research/prepare for tough encounters, only to go out of their way to make doing so as punitive and impossible as they can.
No adventurer can ever do everything they want to do to prepare. But nor should it be impossible for them to do anything to prepare, either for dire threats they know are coming or for threats they routinely face, which seems to be the overall desire here. "Nobody can fix ANYTHING, you get what the random rolls say you get and that's it."
Okay. Sure. Have fun, I guess.
Not all, yeah, but the one you described.
You're really stuck on this all or nothing binary that nobody's actually arguing for.
There is nothing inherent to magic items that prevents them from being traded just like any other item. It's just that the supply and demand is sufficiently restricted that finding the thing you want may be impractical, though that depends on location -- there's a difference between, say, Waterdeep and Ten Towns. Given existing spells, I expect the way it would work is that a typical magic item dealer should be a level mage with access to sending and teleportation circle with a modest inventory of commonly useful items, and anything that's high value or very situational in its use requires sending an order in and getting it delivered, probably taking days to weeks. Other spellcasters, or supernatural beings with equivalent abilities (a number have access to Plane Shift) also work.
'Bout five months ago, the fighter in our party decided he wanted some ready-to-go ranged magical damage, since he'd been having trouble with magic resistance and since flying enemies and also combat distances well in excess of a few hundred feet happen with dismaying regularity in that game. He couldn't get any of his crossbows enchanted yet (he's got a heavy, a light, and three hand crossbows, and to this day I have no ******* idea why) but we'd also just agreed to help escort a caravan from a high-end mercantile company get to where it (and we) were going, and my smartypants artificer had helped them decipher some secrets they'd been stuck on for a while. So we were given the option to purchase some stock at a reduced rate. The fighter, in this case, opted to snag two javelins of lightning, since they were available and would help him out. Ran him a couple thousand gold and his share of the store credit.
According to 'bout a third of the folks in this thread, the moment that player traded coin for magical wares, our game became irrevocably, irreparably, and inconqeurably broken. All balance was destroyed forever, loot no longer had any meaning, the world's verisimilitude was shattered beyond salvation, and the campaign immediately, instantly, became a dead, broken corpse of a D&D game that should've simply been put into the earth to rot as it deserved.
Ahem: no? The caravan company had a couple dozenish magical items of BLue or lower rarity for sale as part of their efforts to move valuable goods around the land; we got access and purchased what our wallets could afford as part of being paid for services we were rendering and aid we had already offered. Why is this such a terrible horrible no-good very bad game, now?
As I've been thinking about this, and I been thinking about it waaaay too much the past couple of days, I started wondering if we're not looking at the wrong side of the equation. The whole conversation has focused on supply and how easy it is to make items, but we're not considering demand. I'm thinking a big part of the issue might not be how high magic the setting is (though that's certainly a factor), as much as how many adventurers you have in your world. If adventurers are rare, then the vast, vast majority of magic items wouldn't have sufficient market to sustain a shop. Certainly, every member of the town watch would like to carry around a +1 short sword and wear +1 leather armor, hunters would love a +1 bow, a laborer could make good use of a belt of giant strength, an everbright lantern is going to be handy for anyone, and I'm sure there's other items that could be put to use by the average person.
But a ruby of the war mage, or a Brooch of shielding, or a holy avenger, or a rod of the pact keeper, or a tattoo that lets your punch count as magical damage, those are really only going to see use by adventurers. Even something as common as a spell scroll can only be used by people with some class levels, or at least a sidekick. So really, no matter how big the city, if there's not a good number of adventurers -- and realistically, mid- to high-level adventurers, since that's when they'll start having the money to actually afford the stuff -- there won't likely be a shop that could support itself selling them. Even that guard who wants a +1 sword is going to have trouble affording it, to the point that they're not likely to be a substantial part of the market. Maybe there's a general store that keeps the good stuff in the back, that might work. But a store needs customers.
I'm not trying to convince either side at this point. Personally, I don't care for magic shops, never have. Lots of people do, great, I'm sure you all have fun with them in your worlds, and I'm not going to try and tell you your fun is wrong. This post is more of me working through a thought experiment.
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I have magic item shops. But they are rare in and of themself. That’s the great thing about D&D, you can do whatever you want regardless of what the book says. I think the tricky part is trying to make money useful in other ways than just buying and selling goods. Bribery, gaining access to place that is off limits, etc…
Are the MtG rules about dnd? No, so stop being so dramatic. Is that particular world of MtG now part of DnD, yes. Are the rules in that book RAW and Canon for that world, yes. You ignore everything you don't agree with and twist peoples meaning. Rules as written indeed say that magic items should be rare and should be sold at best like you have said through auctions, in the dmg and Xanathar. Rules as written it also says that DM's can ignore rules if they conflict with what they and their party want to achieve. Problem is that every setting published ignores the rule of having no magic shops, that every table except one I've played at since 1984 ignores that ruling in one way or another. And in all those years we never had problems with that. The only time we had a problem with following that rule was when we had no magic shops and started to mess with the world because we were filthy rich, leading to three reboots and a violent crash of that table.
That's fine, just saying - you've literally asked where there are shops in the books and well, here's an answer. The Vagrant has a small blurb in the Zadash part of the gazetteer (scroll all the way down). The wiki has more info, and obviously so does the show itself.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I would say in your logic they imply certain things (which you are completely ok to have) but you should not argue another DM's application of the "economy" of magic items is somehow wrong, claiming a DM's world can't even be low magic with magic shops in it is an argument based on opinion not logic. Many Many logical arguments can be made for making that world exist and work. Having Magic shops does not equal Magic weapons being prevalent through the world and everyone having access to them.
"First of all, whether it is from a 'dungeon' (players in your campaigns routinely raid prisons? Really? Why would there be a ton of valuables in prisons?)"
Um.
To paraphrase Michael Caine, some people just want to watch the
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
"One of the few" does not equal "is the only".
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I am sure they Mighty Nein have shopped at and bought magic items from other shops around the continent, anyway this has drifted from the original question the answer to which seems to be.
WOTC has not moved DnD away from magic shops, it is very much setting dependant and while the DMG does seem to suggest they should not exist there are plenty of DnD official settings that have them.
If you are looking for ways to spend your players money there are loads of options that are alternatives, from letting them buy a castle and hire the staff to keep it running, to making them pay out for transport and daily living costs.
Again, struck my previous post because it had been handled. Apologies, phone didn't update and show me there was an eleventh page of text.
Anyways.
One issue with the whole "buying/selling/trading/making/finding/interacting-with-in-any-way magic items should be a plot-driving Adventure!" bit - any given game has only so much room for Plot. Say the character's overarching goal is to defeat a powerful red dragon threatening their countryside, and the wizard decides she wants to try and make a cloak of fire resistance for the climactic showdown with the dragon. The druid can contribute some potions of fire resistance as well as a few potions of climbing to help make navigating its treacherous, rocky lair easier. The ranger wants to imbue a quiver of arrows with frost magic, while the cleric seeks to imbue his god's blessing into some charms the party can wear.
DM: "Okay, sounds good so far! So that's gonna be two sessions of Plot-Driven Adventurer(TM) per potion of climbing and four sessions of Plot-Driven Adventure(C) per fire resist potion. Cleric's gonna need six sessions of Plot-Driven Adventure(G) per companion to try and convince Pelor to give you all those temportary boons, looking like one Plot-Driven Adventure(R) session per one of those frost arrows, and I'm gonna want at least twenty sessions of Plot-Driven Adventure(IOU) for that cloak."
Players: "...dude. That's over a year of play just to try and make some basic shit to help deal with this giant ****off dragon, not counting anything else we have to do in the interim!"
DM: "Yep! It's great, isn't it? Think of all the Adventure you're gonna have going out on my scratch-built shopping lists to find the esoteric dire frog gonads needed to make even the most basic of temporary equipment! I know y'all want to feel like you're proactively preparing for this epic struggle against the terrifying boss monster I've got set to raze your village at any time, but we can't be having any of that so you'd best get to collecting ten orc scalps for the local brewer instead, buckos!"
Getting the idea yet? Yeah. COnstantly, constantly, constantly telling the players that they can't do or accomplish any-damn-thing without derailing the game for several months to get it done will swiftly lead to your players not bothering. The "Magnanimous" DM that can't understand why his players are so irritated by him letting them craft whatever they want...in exchange for a six-month subquest for the Golden Goat Dick of Alcatraz and assembling forty thousand gold coins from the Lost Empire of Buttwhistle as the price demanded by the Hermit of Ages in his lonely, CR23 mountain lair - and yes, the lair is challenge rating 23, not the hermit - before they're allowed to generate even a single green item may - just may, mind, but may - need to reassess his priorities.
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I mentioned this pages ago. Does not seem to be a concern for most.
As a side note, it is amazing to me that our group does not quest for magic item materials nor costly spell components yet takes over two years to complete a module with weekly sessions. Compared to groups that report they do quest for materials and components and finish modules in mere months....how is this even possible???
Most of those groups, I imagine, don't bother with characterization or interpersonal moments. They're marches from quest objective to quest objective in a very Skyrim style - walk somewhere, kill something, scoop up loot, walk somewhere else, repeat cycle until DM designated BBEG is no longer an issue. I know my group can "lose" entire sessions with interpersonal issues or even just amusing side anecdotes while they're in a town, and there's times we've gone a couple of months without murdering anything. Magical gear is available for sale in large cities, with Villamoi and especially Laro being places where almost anything can be had for enough coin. Some folks would tell me that's because we're playing the game horribly, horribly wrong and absolutely ruining our campaign forever...but we've been running it for something like two years so far and it hasn't felt ruined to us.
Do you, as a DM, appreciate when your players engage with your plotline, try to learn about your enemies, and do their due diligence to prepare ahead of time to stand a better chance of defeating the climactic final encounter you've prepared for them? "Yes, of course!" most DMs say...whilst doing everything in their power to punish players for doing so when they don't outright forbid it. Why attach absolutely ridiculous 'quest' requirements you as a DM know for absolute certain your players will not engage with to even the most basic of attempts to prepare for your Awesome Dragon Showdown, hn?
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Whether my players want to go on adventure, run a business or rob nobles for gems, gold, currency etc. to buy that exact item they want; or they want to go on an adventure, run a business or bust down a black market monster parts trade to get the items they need to craft a magical item it's all the same in the end to me.
If you ask a shop keep I'll give you the price. If the characters need information to make an item I'll give you that information pretty readily or just make it available at a library, archive somewhere in the world - the Candlekeep of whichever world we are in. Unless it's some epic one of a kind item that a specific, named in lore NPC made.
I also hand out random "parts" with loot that will often be used in crafting processes especially if there is an artificer in the group or just someone who is interested in crafting things. Mind you the reason I started handing out crafting materials was because my players started asking/collecting them anyway.
Finding gold along your way is no different then finding crafting materials along the way in my campaigns. Sometimes you have everything you need other times you need to get back out there and collect more money/stuff to get what you want.
My players may feel they get the items whenever they want but I set it up to allow them access to the items when I feel appropriate. Overall item shops/crafting is just another level of character customization that I believe should be in every game at some level regardless of the magic level of that campaign.
It's some work to do on the fly as I have no plans to make lists of all the magical items and their components (although I do consult a google sheet that has a bunch of price lists). I also am not against substitutions of like quality and kind of materials. They (almost) never need a specific unicorn horn that has been hit by lightning on the highest peak of the continent during the once a year superstorm. If I'm unsure I let my players know out of character that I'll come back to it. They often suggest things that are harder to obtain then I would and I just run with it because what they suggested is likely something they are interested in doing.
Sometimes they will come up with their own creations based on something they would like an item to do that we hash out outside of the regular session. These can be small things for flavor or bigger items that don't have a lot of representation in the books (like firearms for a tinkerer/gunslinger character).
For the truly epic end game items sometimes the information gathering goes across campaigns. Character A will want a unique item that only Character B has seen in B's campaign and without their (character) knowledge has affected how character A will have to go about getting it. This does require separation of player/character knowledge but it leads to some really interesting discussions and plans outside the games.
All in all I feel giving the players more creative choices with their character can actually make my job of deciding what loot to hand out easier as I can hand out more generic items/any item and they can sell, trade or craft them into what they actually want. I do try my best to provide useful magic items to the characters anyway so they can use them in the mean time or until it's no longer useful at their tier of play and aren't just bag of holding filler.
I'm sure they exist but I haven't had a player who doesn't like being able to choose items occasionally due to it not making sense in the world. Everyone should run their tables to maximize their groups fun though so you all keep doing you.
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If it's going to take longer to craft the stuff than it'll take for the dragon to kill everyone you love, then you can't do it. There's no months of play happening: they just don't craft the stuff. They need to go fight the dragon.
Ticking clocks and crafting don't get along. This is known. However, most games are meant to have some downtime. There's rules for it and everything.
Here's the real secret, though. In our current game right now we're going to the Bone Brambles to meet an oracle, on behalf of an NPC. But if someone was trying to make a potion of fire resistance, for example, then the DM could simply erase the NPC. Erase the oracle, too, if he wants to. Because guess where you find the plants needed for the potion? That's right: in the Bone Brambles.
I haven't yet everything here yet but hoped to chip in one thought.
Large shops like those in big cities might share info on their inventories with other stores. Postal systems and sending stones could both be used. Chain stores such as those owned by Lionshield Costa (such as in Phandalin) and other socially connected stores might also be happy to receive inventory information.
To transfer items from location to location, capable individuals or groups might have to pay the origin location a considerable monetary sum to take possession of items but be promised payment of a return of that considerable sum + commission. By means such as these, items might be transferred between outlets with ease.
Of course. Not all Epic bad Guy Fights are ticking clocks, though. Orcus On His Throne is a thing. And mostly I'm picking on the idea that GMs claim to love it when players do things like engaging with their world and trying to research/prepare for tough encounters, only to go out of their way to make doing so as punitive and impossible as they can.
No adventurer can ever do everything they want to do to prepare. But nor should it be impossible for them to do anything to prepare, either for dire threats they know are coming or for threats they routinely face, which seems to be the overall desire here. "Nobody can fix ANYTHING, you get what the random rolls say you get and that's it."
Okay. Sure. Have fun, I guess.
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Not all, yeah, but the one you described.
You're really stuck on this all or nothing binary that nobody's actually arguing for.
There is nothing inherent to magic items that prevents them from being traded just like any other item. It's just that the supply and demand is sufficiently restricted that finding the thing you want may be impractical, though that depends on location -- there's a difference between, say, Waterdeep and Ten Towns. Given existing spells, I expect the way it would work is that a typical magic item dealer should be a level mage with access to sending and teleportation circle with a modest inventory of commonly useful items, and anything that's high value or very situational in its use requires sending an order in and getting it delivered, probably taking days to weeks. Other spellcasters, or supernatural beings with equivalent abilities (a number have access to Plane Shift) also work.
Put it this way.
'Bout five months ago, the fighter in our party decided he wanted some ready-to-go ranged magical damage, since he'd been having trouble with magic resistance and since flying enemies and also combat distances well in excess of a few hundred feet happen with dismaying regularity in that game. He couldn't get any of his crossbows enchanted yet (he's got a heavy, a light, and three hand crossbows, and to this day I have no ******* idea why) but we'd also just agreed to help escort a caravan from a high-end mercantile company get to where it (and we) were going, and my smartypants artificer had helped them decipher some secrets they'd been stuck on for a while. So we were given the option to purchase some stock at a reduced rate. The fighter, in this case, opted to snag two javelins of lightning, since they were available and would help him out. Ran him a couple thousand gold and his share of the store credit.
According to 'bout a third of the folks in this thread, the moment that player traded coin for magical wares, our game became irrevocably, irreparably, and inconqeurably broken. All balance was destroyed forever, loot no longer had any meaning, the world's verisimilitude was shattered beyond salvation, and the campaign immediately, instantly, became a dead, broken corpse of a D&D game that should've simply been put into the earth to rot as it deserved.
Ahem: no? The caravan company had a couple dozenish magical items of BLue or lower rarity for sale as part of their efforts to move valuable goods around the land; we got access and purchased what our wallets could afford as part of being paid for services we were rendering and aid we had already offered. Why is this such a terrible horrible no-good very bad game, now?
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As I've been thinking about this, and I been thinking about it waaaay too much the past couple of days, I started wondering if we're not looking at the wrong side of the equation. The whole conversation has focused on supply and how easy it is to make items, but we're not considering demand. I'm thinking a big part of the issue might not be how high magic the setting is (though that's certainly a factor), as much as how many adventurers you have in your world. If adventurers are rare, then the vast, vast majority of magic items wouldn't have sufficient market to sustain a shop. Certainly, every member of the town watch would like to carry around a +1 short sword and wear +1 leather armor, hunters would love a +1 bow, a laborer could make good use of a belt of giant strength, an everbright lantern is going to be handy for anyone, and I'm sure there's other items that could be put to use by the average person.
But a ruby of the war mage, or a Brooch of shielding, or a holy avenger, or a rod of the pact keeper, or a tattoo that lets your punch count as magical damage, those are really only going to see use by adventurers. Even something as common as a spell scroll can only be used by people with some class levels, or at least a sidekick. So really, no matter how big the city, if there's not a good number of adventurers -- and realistically, mid- to high-level adventurers, since that's when they'll start having the money to actually afford the stuff -- there won't likely be a shop that could support itself selling them. Even that guard who wants a +1 sword is going to have trouble affording it, to the point that they're not likely to be a substantial part of the market. Maybe there's a general store that keeps the good stuff in the back, that might work. But a store needs customers.
I'm not trying to convince either side at this point. Personally, I don't care for magic shops, never have. Lots of people do, great, I'm sure you all have fun with them in your worlds, and I'm not going to try and tell you your fun is wrong. This post is more of me working through a thought experiment.