What? Of course sometimes there are several encounters a day, not always sometimes there are no encounters and you have an rp session, or shopping spree or a gambling session, but yeah sometimes I run more that one combat a day. Otherwise Classes that work with short rests can just be thrown out all together. I take it you never played a Warlock in 5th?
I'm not saying multiple encounters per day never happen. I'm saying assuming 6-8 per day is typical is nonsense.
Today I was planning out potential journeys my PCs might take. There are about 4 possible routes, each takes about a week, and each one has a chance of a random encounter per day. I'm not going to run them through 6-8 encounters to balance those. I just make every potential encounter beyond Deadly.
Which is exactly my point. The game should recognize that a single encounter is moderately common and the median (for days where any encounters occur at all) is probably two or three. Sure, the 6-8 encounter day can happen, but it's the anomaly, not the rule.
What? Of course sometimes there are several encounters a day, not always sometimes there are no encounters and you have an rp session, or shopping spree or a gambling session, but yeah sometimes I run more that one combat a day. Otherwise Classes that work with short rests can just be thrown out all together. I take it you never played a Warlock in 5th?
I'm not saying multiple encounters per day never happen. I'm saying assuming 6-8 per day is typical is nonsense.
That's true I typically never run more than three, or if there is a major screw up on the players part more.
In the DMG you from page 133 to about page 232 (about 1/3rd of the book) you are given lists of magic items, how to create magic items, how to generate random treasure with magic items in them etc..) yet, the core advice from the book is, Magic Items should be so rare that players should almost never get any else it will break your game.
This isn't entirely accurate. The DMG doesn't, to the best of my knowledge, state anything about handing out too many magic items breaking your game. Also, the loot/treasure tables as well as what the official adventures dole out in terms of magical items certainly contradict the notion that "players should almost never get any" - Lost Mine of Phandelver, the official starter kit adventure to show new players what a game of D&D might be like, hands out several magical items and is intended for tier 1 play. The message I seem to be getting is more along the line that the players in regular games shouldn't simply get to pick whatever equipment they want and have it available, along with a suggested number of magical items of a given rarity by play tier.
That bit about modules has always been the case. There have always been modules with sane levels of reward and others where magic items are given out like candy on Halloween
I think I'd be hard-pressed to find a module that didn't at least potentially provide magical items at fairly low levels. That aside, the more salient point is arguably what the DMG actually says and "players should almost never get any" doesn't seem to be it.
It is a balancing act. If they are too common, they get taken for granted and lose their 'magic' as it were. Too infrequent and that can cause other problems, as discussed. Stores have a high risk of facilitating 'too common.'
There's a car dealership in my city that sells imported European sports cars, but they still don't qualify as "cheap" or "common." Just because something appears in a store doesn't mean it can't be expensive. And it definitely doesn't mean that it's going to be common and widespread.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
" I'm a big fan of providing magical items to the PCs, quite possibly tailor-made for the characters too, just not vending machine style."
This is exactly how I feel too. I worry that providing Magic Item Shops makes it a Vending Machine Style thing. I prefer to either 'plant' items for PCs to find, or make them available for purchase if they wish to pursue the quest of getting in touch with the seller. Items are sold among folks that have the contacts to find sellers.
I consider the presence of magic items to be an issue that would concern many nobles and other positions of authority because magic items may permit you to circumvent any safeguards the establishment has to maintain the status quo. For this reason, I would expect the authorities to attempt to collect and quarantine magic items, much like measures against ownership of automatic weapons today. The government wants to have them all and control who might receive them for use.
But that doesn't mean I wouldn't let PCs obtain magic items. I am just saying that the authorities will watch you once they know you have them, and some may seek an excuse to confiscate them. They may have good intentions, but their fear may may govern their reason. More evil authorities might try to seize them without compensation. Because of this, it is wise to remain in good graces with the authorities.
The other thing about magic items is outside of gems and perhaps jewelry, it is the most concentrated form of wealth in the game. The idea that someone could stroll into a shop and pick something out breaks all immersion. Such a store would be more secure than the King's vault. Or more likely, the only magic items are in the king's vault.
Just from a financial point of view, it'd be unlikely for magic stores to be sitting on a lot of inventory. Magical items are like gems in that they are valuable, but they're also very different from gems in that they have a specific purpose. Items that don't get sold for a while because nobody happens to need something with their specific purpose would be a big investment, tying up significant budget, without a guarantee of a return. Shops might take items off your hands if they can get them for a good price, but that's unlikely to result in a large stock at any given time. I imagine they might craft a few common ones they expect to be popular too, but probably not more than a handful at a time unless those would be getting sold as soon as they were available. As such, most stores likely have, at any time an adventuring party comes through the door, at most a couple of random items for resale and a half dozen common ones they believe will sell fairly fast that they crafted themselves. They might have potential buyers lined up for certain types of items the party would be trying to sell (though I wouldn't take that too far either), but when it comes to finding the exact item they want to be bought off the shelf the PCs should be more than a little bit lucky. Commissioning could be an option, but given the time constraints for most campaigns not a practical one. I can see maybe one or two magic stores in an entire setting break that mold by having a large variety of items in stock, but in most campaigns - including ones where magical items actually are common - I'd expect magic stores to be of interest to the PCs mostly as a way to offload stuff they have no interest in themselves, not as a way to make their wish list reality. The existence of such stores would still be plausible, realistic and economically viable though.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I like those low level magic weapons that do not grant a bonus to hit or damage they just make the weapon magical and that will bypass resistance and immunity to them all the while not making the enemy easier to hit. Its items like these that are valuable to a lower level party, myself I love magic items like the Clothes of Mending and the Shiftweave outfits from Eberron. I still do like the big awesome cool stuff like Staff of the Magi and so on but that's high level play and not found in magic shops.
I'd be fine to play 5e in a world without or with few magic items, but I'd then be pretty pissed off when my fighter gets surrounded by creatures that can only be hit by magical attacks.
If you take magic items out of the game, you have to change the game.
For sure, village shops like those in Phandalin or Icewind Dale's Ten Towns might stock few if any magic items. However, small village or town stores, if in travelling distance of a major conurbation, might have listings of items available in more prestigious stores.
You always have to keep in mind that there is a difference between mechanical balance and game balance. I don't think anyone is suggesting that a magic shop should have a full stock of all magic items available in the game and the players are only limited by what they can afford. Nor is anyone suggesting the players should find tons of magic items in dungeons, clearly that to would create balance issues.
The expectation from players is that it should be possible for them to find and buy some magic items, not because of mechanical advantages or greed, but because magic items are a part of a fantasy game, its a part of D&D, its part of the culture of the gmae. This is a normal expectation for players to have and the game should be mechanically balanced to handle that.
Mechanical balance is a design approach that asks the question if a character gains X item or power, does that unbalance the game. A good game design will ensure that the game remains balanced as long as you follow the advice and design of the game.
Game balance is where the mechanical design breaks down if the core rules and advice aren't followed in a specific game. For example, if you are a 1st level group of adventures and the DM puts you up against an Ancient Dragon with a CR 20 rating, that is not a problem with mechanical balance, but a problem with your specific game balance. You ignore the advice of the game so now your game is unbalanced, but this is not the fault of the game design.
The problem with 5e is that if you follow the advice of the books, if you follow the mechanical balance as outlined by the game design, your game WILL be very unbalanced.
This is a design problem with 5e. It is .. effectively a broken game. If you follow the rules of the game, follow its design requirements and effectively do as the DMG suggests, your game WILL be very unbalanced. The CR system, the way classes are built, the way magic items are handled.. all of it, even if you follow the rules will break the game.
It becomes then the job of the DM to figure it out against the advice of the book.
To me the way the DMG handles magic items is about the most broken thing I have ever seen in an RPG. In the DMG you from page 133 to about page 232 (about 1/3rd of the book) you are given lists of magic items, how to create magic items, how to generate random treasure with magic items in them etc..) yet, the core advice from the book is, Magic Items should be so rare that players should almost never get any else it will break your game.
Am I crazy, can anyone explain the principles behind what they are trying to accomplish with this layout and structure in the game? I mean, why add 100 pages of discussion and lists about magic items in the book, if the principal advice is "don't use this".
It's just shit design and it's not just shit design because it's bad, but because it also goes against the very foundation of fantasy writing, player expectations and gaming culture assumptions.
The other thing for me is that WOTC then in Dragon of Icespire peak provide a load of magic items. Like you say the approach taken is, here is all this stuff, now please don’t use it.
If I wanted to play a game with no magic items there are plenty of systems available.
The certain poster in question, Kotath, was suggesting no such thing. The 'Certain Poster' in question was trying to make the point that the common refrain against allowing players to possess any magical gear that wasn't rolled on the Great Big Charts of Loot Nobody Wants in the DMG, i.e. "make the players go on a quest for it and Drive The Plot(C)!" is unhelpful when there's an actual plot to be following and players aren't going to want to divert from that plot for several months every single time somebody needs something that can't be bought in Billy Bob's Totally Mundane General Store. The DM saying "You're not allowed to make even basic white or green consumables without going on a six-month tangent to find the gall bladder of an Azmerian hypnotoad, found in only one place in the entire world across at least three oceans from you and with at least eight other ancient dragons between you and it" is as stupid as the DM saying "Oh sure, this ten-hut scrap village at the very fringes of not-quite-civilization has a Bertie's MegaMart outlet where you can find every single magical item in the books from Purple on downwards, and have a decent chance of finding orange."
Also? Knock it off with this 'Certain Poster' nonsense. You know my name. Use it. Address me directly if you're going to do so at all, please.
Do I like the idea of magic items in a game, especially wildly unbalanced ones? No, I don't. They sow discord in a group as one player has something "cool", and the rest are like siblings where it is unfair that Billy got an ice cream cone and Bobbie did not, until Bobbie gets hers too.
But you know what?
Sometimes the quest for the magic items IS the adventure. But not mundane items. Some time ago I stole the concept of the Rod of 7 Parts as one of the main plot hooks for my campaign. My crew actually saw one of the pieces, sitting in the palms of an Iron Golem, and the wisest players in the group screamed "don't touch it!". They knew they were not ready for it yet, but they now had a taste.This crew was running with no magic outside of some potions, and they managed just fine.
I am currently playing in one where a particular magic item I have found (wildly OP for the level of the group), is telling me empathically that it is one in a set, it knows where others are, and the DM has stated that I have a growing compulsion to go get them. Am I fond of this? No, I am not. But it is far far better than having a shop where I can walk into and get some bespoke item.
I will refrain from a discussion about meta gaming here, but will just say in 30 years of roleplay I have yet to experience this mystical jealousy that supposedly happens when one player gets a magic item. In fact I have been in many many situations, both as DM and as a player where the party have all put funds in to buy that magic item for that character knowing there won’t be another for a while.
As I have said I always have magic shops and this myth about them breaking the game is just that, a myth that is actually false.
The certain poster in question, Kotath, was suggesting no such thing. The 'Certain Poster' in question was trying to make the point that the common refrain against allowing players to possess any magical gear that wasn't rolled on the Great Big Charts of Loot Nobody Wants in the DMG, i.e. "make the players go on a quest for it and Drive The Plot(C)!" is unhelpful when there's an actual plot to be following and players aren't going to want to divert from that plot for several months every single time somebody needs something that can't be bought in Billy Bob's Totally Mundane General Store. The DM saying "You're not allowed to make even basic white or green consumables without going on a six-month tangent to find the gall bladder of an Azmerian hypnotoad, found in only one place in the entire world across at least three oceans from you and with at least eight other ancient dragons between you and it" is as stupid as the DM saying "Oh sure, this ten-hut scrap village at the very fringes of not-quite-civilization has a Bertie's MegaMart outlet where you can find every single magical item in the books from Purple on downwards, and have a decent chance of finding orange."
Also? Knock it off with this 'Certain Poster' nonsense. You know my name. Use it. Address me directly if you're going to do so at all, please.
Do I like the idea of magic items in a game, especially wildly unbalanced ones? No, I don't. They sow discord in a group as one player has something "cool", and the rest are like siblings where it is unfair that Billy got an ice cream cone and Bobbie did not, until Bobbie gets hers too.
But you know what?
Sometimes the quest for the magic items IS the adventure. But not mundane items. Some time ago I stole the concept of the Rod of 7 Parts as one of the main plot hooks for my campaign. My crew actually saw one of the pieces, sitting in the palms of an Iron Golem, and the wisest players in the group screamed "don't touch it!". They knew they were not ready for it yet, but they now had a taste.This crew was running with no magic outside of some potions, and they managed just fine.
I am currently playing in one where a particular magic item I have found (wildly OP for the level of the group), is telling me empathically that it is one in a set, it knows where others are, and the DM has stated that I have a growing compulsion to go get them. Am I fond of this? No, I am not. But it is far far better than having a shop where I can walk into and get some bespoke item.
I will refrained j from a discussion about meta gaming here, but will just say in 30 years of roleplay I have yet to experience this mystical jealousy that supposedly happens when one player gets a magic item. In fact I have been in many many situations, both as DM and as a player where the party have all out funds in to but that magic item for that character knowing there won’t be another for a while.
As I have said I always have magic shops and this myth about them breaking the game is just that, a myth that is actually false.
You"ve been lucky. I have seen groups where everyone is that selfless, but seen jealousy more often.
I don’t think it’s luck, this play has been multiple systems, multiple people. I think it is down to DM game management and setting expectations.
I understand the theory of how magic shops could break a game in a certain way, but please don’t tell me they only work in a high magic setting. Instead say they only work in your world in a high magic setting, many many of us get them to fit successfully in a very low magic setting.
The concept of Jealousy over magic items is actually a modern game problem, so you didn't experience it in the past 30 years because it didn't exist and this is because of how the games are setup differently then and now.
In old-school gaming if you're jealous about someone else's magic item you kill them and take it from their corpse.
... D&D setting do not function under such scrutiny, they physically cannot exist. Everything about them requires an extremely high level of suspension of disbelief.
Case in point, last night my group was playing in the world of Golorian. We were in a Gnomish city called Brastlewark. Effectively all shops in this place were magic shops, there really wasn't much you couldn't find here that was normal by any sense of the definition, even the way they made tea was kind of crazy. ...
Erm... A single example of a setting that's on the extreme side by your own admission isn't much of an argument that all D&D settings require a high level of suspension of disbelief. Regardless, even if that were true it wouldn't be an argument against trying to make things as internally consistent as possible and magic shops with limited inventory are - in most settings - internally consistent.
Like you say the approach taken is, here is all this stuff, now please don’t use it.
Can I ask where it says "now please don't use it"? As far as I can tell the books suggest not having anything and everything available for the players to buy; they don't seem to suggest not giving them magical items. I might have missed something though, the 5E DMG in particular tends to be unable to hold my interest.
Side note regarding later posts in the thread: jealousy means not wanting others to have what's yours; envy means wanting what others have.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
"Please don't use it" is usually unspoken and just an assumption or naivety on the part of the DM that the party will not go crazy and simply buy everything, or that the items the party purchases are far more powerful in play than the DM thought they would be on paper (and yes, that latter bit is a risk regardless of how the party gets new items).
Not pointing at you necessarily, I just like to know what in the DMG or PHB actually suggests magic items shouldn't be used, if anything. Because all I see is indications they should be used, just not willy-nilly.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
"Please don't use it" is usually unspoken and just an assumption or naivety on the part of the DM that the party will not go crazy and simply buy everything, or that the items the party purchases are far more powerful in play than the DM thought they would be on paper (and yes, that latter bit is a risk regardless of how the party gets new items).
Not pointing at you necessarily, I just like to know what in the DMG or PHB actually suggests magic items shouldn't be used, if anything. Because all I see is indications they should be used, just not willy-nilly.
It's a figure of speech. In this case pointing out that the books or here in this particular example gives tons and tons of magic items, ways to make them but then says that MI's are rare and cost so much money no one can afford them. That players will have difficulty selling them as no one can afford them and that to be able to buy one is, almost unheard of. That's a tldr of that part of the DMG. And Xanathar's. This is of course contradicted with every official settings abundance of magic items. Or that making healing potions and magical scrolls is an easy way to make money, even for pc's. Or that Wizards need to be able to buy scrolls if they want new spells.
"Please don't use it" is usually unspoken and just an assumption or naivety on the part of the DM that the party will not go crazy and simply buy everything, or that the items the party purchases are far more powerful in play than the DM thought they would be on paper (and yes, that latter bit is a risk regardless of how the party gets new items).
Not pointing at you necessarily, I just like to know what in the DMG or PHB actually suggests magic items shouldn't be used, if anything. Because all I see is indications they should be used, just not willy-nilly.
I don't think it says it explicitly, but it is implied that magic items should rarely be given to players (because it's reasonable to assume that anything given to the players will be used). The DMG stresses how rare it is, and looking at the item crafting tables of Xanathar's, it's also implied there too.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
"Please don't use it" is usually unspoken and just an assumption or naivety on the part of the DM that the party will not go crazy and simply buy everything, or that the items the party purchases are far more powerful in play than the DM thought they would be on paper (and yes, that latter bit is a risk regardless of how the party gets new items).
Not pointing at you necessarily, I just like to know what in the DMG or PHB actually suggests magic items shouldn't be used, if anything. Because all I see is indications they should be used, just not willy-nilly.
It's a figure of speech. In this case pointing out that the books or here in this particular example gives tons and tons of magic items, ways to make them but then says that MI's are rare and cost so much money no one can afford them. That players will have difficulty selling them as no one can afford them and that to be able to buy one is, almost unheard of. That's a tldr of that part of the DMG. And Xanathar's. This is of course contradicted with every official settings abundance of magic items. Or that making healing potions and magical scrolls is an easy way to make money, even for pc's. Or that Wizards need to be able to buy scrolls if they want new spells.
The bolded there is one of the play-balance reasons for limiting shops. If you have magic shops, you have to be that much more cautious with how much gold is given out, regardless of means. Otherwise you have to start introducing inflation or you have the PC's buying up all store inventory as quickly as it comes in.
There is still the question begged, though, as to why the local government does not buy the items up. They are of strategic use, after all, especially if they are common enough to build miltary units around them.
Don't go there nothing of a setting will remain, because otherwise I will start giving numbers of how many guards Paris had in the Middle ages. It's a lot less than what you would imagine. We're playing a fantasy game, not Darkest Europe Simulator. And especially not with the rules in the DMG about how to run a business, were you have 40 % to lose money, 20 % to break even and a 40 % chance to make a profit every tenday. Now the same page in the DMG says that to create a common magic item costs 100 gold. The rules as written don't work.
"Please don't use it" is usually unspoken and just an assumption or naivety on the part of the DM that the party will not go crazy and simply buy everything, or that the items the party purchases are far more powerful in play than the DM thought they would be on paper (and yes, that latter bit is a risk regardless of how the party gets new items).
Not pointing at you necessarily, I just like to know what in the DMG or PHB actually suggests magic items shouldn't be used, if anything. Because all I see is indications they should be used, just not willy-nilly.
It's a figure of speech. In this case pointing out that the books or here in this particular example gives tons and tons of magic items, ways to make them but then says that MI's are rare and cost so much money no one can afford them. That players will have difficulty selling them as no one can afford them and that to be able to buy one is, almost unheard of. That's a tldr of that part of the DMG. And Xanathar's. This is of course contradicted with every official settings abundance of magic items. Or that making healing potions and magical scrolls is an easy way to make money, even for pc's. Or that Wizards need to be able to buy scrolls if they want new spells.
"Few people can afford to buy a magic item, and fewer still know how to find one. Adventurers are exceptional in this regard due to the nature of their profession." -The DMG literally says adventurers (aka the PCs) are exceptional when it comes to being able to afford magic items. How easy or hard it might be for them to get rid of such items is frankly largely immaterial. The point is the book suggests player characters can afford magic items and know how to find them. Figure of speech or not, the message of the books as far as I can find it is not the message that's being espoused here. If someone can correct me I'll happily accept that, but again: I'm not seeing it so far. All I'm seeing are allegations I can't seem to corroborate with actual passages from the PHB or DMG.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
"Please don't use it" is usually unspoken and just an assumption or naivety on the part of the DM that the party will not go crazy and simply buy everything, or that the items the party purchases are far more powerful in play than the DM thought they would be on paper (and yes, that latter bit is a risk regardless of how the party gets new items).
Not pointing at you necessarily, I just like to know what in the DMG or PHB actually suggests magic items shouldn't be used, if anything. Because all I see is indications they should be used, just not willy-nilly.
It's a figure of speech. In this case pointing out that the books or here in this particular example gives tons and tons of magic items, ways to make them but then says that MI's are rare and cost so much money no one can afford them. That players will have difficulty selling them as no one can afford them and that to be able to buy one is, almost unheard of. That's a tldr of that part of the DMG. And Xanathar's. This is of course contradicted with every official settings abundance of magic items. Or that making healing potions and magical scrolls is an easy way to make money, even for pc's. Or that Wizards need to be able to buy scrolls if they want new spells.
"Few people can afford to buy a magic item, and fewer still know how to find one. Adventurers are exceptional in this regard due to the nature of their profession." -The DMG literally says adventurers (aka the PCs) are exceptional when it comes to being able to afford magic items. How easy or hard it might be for them to get rid of such items is frankly largely immaterial. The point is the book suggests player characters can afford magic items and know how to find them. Figure of speech or not, the message of the books as far as I can find it is not the message that's being espoused here. If someone can correct me I'll happily accept that, but again: I'm not seeing it so far. All I'm seeing are allegations I can't seem to corroborate with actual passages from the PHB or DMG.
The book says that it's easier for pc's to find MAgic Items because they adventure and pillage tombs, dungeons, ancient cities. Places were you can find them. That's implication behind that sentence.
"Please don't use it" is usually unspoken and just an assumption or naivety on the part of the DM that the party will not go crazy and simply buy everything, or that the items the party purchases are far more powerful in play than the DM thought they would be on paper (and yes, that latter bit is a risk regardless of how the party gets new items).
Not pointing at you necessarily, I just like to know what in the DMG or PHB actually suggests magic items shouldn't be used, if anything. Because all I see is indications they should be used, just not willy-nilly.
It's a figure of speech. In this case pointing out that the books or here in this particular example gives tons and tons of magic items, ways to make them but then says that MI's are rare and cost so much money no one can afford them. That players will have difficulty selling them as no one can afford them and that to be able to buy one is, almost unheard of. That's a tldr of that part of the DMG. And Xanathar's. This is of course contradicted with every official settings abundance of magic items. Or that making healing potions and magical scrolls is an easy way to make money, even for pc's. Or that Wizards need to be able to buy scrolls if they want new spells.
"Few people can afford to buy a magic item, and fewer still know how to find one. Adventurers are exceptional in this regard due to the nature of their profession." -The DMG literally says adventurers (aka the PCs) are exceptional when it comes to being able to afford magic items. How easy or hard it might be for them to get rid of such items is frankly largely immaterial. The point is the book suggests player characters can afford magic items and know how to find them. Figure of speech or not, the message of the books as far as I can find it is not the message that's being espoused here. If someone can correct me I'll happily accept that, but again: I'm not seeing it so far. All I'm seeing are allegations I can't seem to corroborate with actual passages from the PHB or DMG.
The book says that it's easier for pc's to find MAgic Items because they adventure and pillage tombs, dungeons, ancient cities. Places were you can find them. That's implication behind that sentence.
Yes, which means they have easier access than most. Which contradicts "please don't use it". That's all I'm looking for here: something in the books that actually means "please don't use [magic items]".
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Yes, which means they have easier access than most. Which contradicts "please don't use it". That's all I'm looking for here: something in the books that actually means "please don't use [magic items]".
This is all in the context of magic retailers existing in addition to what the party finds in the field though.
Ok, then to what end is that pertinent? I've seen the argument that the DMG provides a laundry list of magic items while at the same time suggesting not to use them. Magic retailers existing or not isn't even part of that necessarily - if the party finds things in the field they have access to those things which means they're in use. I'm just trying to cut to the chase and either corroborate or put to bed one or two claims I've seen made that I don't believe are correct. If we can agree there's no factual basis in the core books for the "please don't use it" claim, I'd be happy to move along and maybe dig in to this separate notion about the existence of magic retailers pushing suspension of disbelief.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Yes, which means they have easier access than most. Which contradicts "please don't use it". That's all I'm looking for here: something in the books that actually means "please don't use [magic items]".
This is all in the context of magic retailers existing in addition to what the party finds in the field though.
Ok, then to what end is that pertinent? I've seen the argument that the DMG provides a laundry list of magic items while at the same time suggesting not to use them. Magic retailers existing or not isn't even part of that necessarily - if the party finds things in the field they have access to those things which means they're in use. I'm just trying to cut to the chase and either corroborate or put to bed one or two claims I've seen made that I don't believe are correct. If we can agree there's no factual basis in the core books for the "please don't use it" claim, I'd be happy to move along and maybe dig in to this separate notion about the existence of magic retailers pushing suspension of disbelief.
It's not please don't use it but please do it your way.
Advice indicates that the druid doesn't explode suggesting druid access to metal armour but also says that "your DM has the final say on how far you can go and still be considered a member of the class" facilitating a potential complete cut-off.
Same as the situation here. DMs can optionally give abundant access to magic items or not.
I have played enough and DM'ed enough to know that players are like children. They always want more, more, more.
If a Magic R Us store is available, they WILL exploit it. I try not to be, being a somewhat reformed optimizer, but I guarantee if a DM says "here is a store where you can buy stuff, and even make requests that might eventually be filled", I will most certainly take advantage of that offer. That opportunity should NEVER be given to players, unless the DM is running a ridiculously high powered game, where the monsters are all lethal in any encounter.
By providing access to bespoke magic items, the DM is creating an arms race with themselves. The DM gives these wonderful toys and tools to the players, and in turn, the DM then has to artificially amp up the difficulty level of the encounters to keep the group from steamrolling them.
Or worse, and this has been an obvious fact forever, if one player, is demonstrably more powerful than the rest, thanks to magic items, or one player is weaker, than the rest of the party, bad things happen.
Mr 6th level Paladin with an 16 CHA gives a +3 to all savings throws to those within 10 feet of him. Awesome ability. Now we give that same Paladin a Luckstone, and a +1 ROP, which he bought at Magic R Us. Oh look, that Paladin now has a +5 to all his saves. Meanwhile, the Bard is 15 feet away, and has not gone that route of personal defense items.
The DM knows about this +5 of the Paladin, and has to scale up attacks to make the encounter even halfway challenging for the Paladin. So the DM thinks, "hmmmm...to make this encounter challenging, I am going to have to amp up the DC on the spells cast at the Paladin. I will have my NPC Warlock get a +2 Rod of the Pact Keeper to counter the +2 to the Magic Items the Paladin has." But Mr. Bard suddenly finds that the Sickening Radiance cast by the DM's NPC is well, brutal, while the Paladin makes what would be a fair roll.
And to those that say "well, a good DM would find ways to challenge the group without resorting to such methods", I retort with "why should the DM have to go through all the gyrations in the 1st place, when the DM can avoid the entire problem by simply not giving the char(s) the opportunity to buy items.
Wow. I'm sorry that you have play with people like that. I have plenty of gaming experience that is nothing like this. BigLizard and others report to as well. Do try to remember that your gaming experience is not definitive of the game--and thank goodness for that TBH.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Which is exactly my point. The game should recognize that a single encounter is moderately common and the median (for days where any encounters occur at all) is probably two or three. Sure, the 6-8 encounter day can happen, but it's the anomaly, not the rule.
That's true I typically never run more than three, or if there is a major screw up on the players part more.
There's a car dealership in my city that sells imported European sports cars, but they still don't qualify as "cheap" or "common." Just because something appears in a store doesn't mean it can't be expensive. And it definitely doesn't mean that it's going to be common and widespread.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Just from a financial point of view, it'd be unlikely for magic stores to be sitting on a lot of inventory. Magical items are like gems in that they are valuable, but they're also very different from gems in that they have a specific purpose. Items that don't get sold for a while because nobody happens to need something with their specific purpose would be a big investment, tying up significant budget, without a guarantee of a return. Shops might take items off your hands if they can get them for a good price, but that's unlikely to result in a large stock at any given time. I imagine they might craft a few common ones they expect to be popular too, but probably not more than a handful at a time unless those would be getting sold as soon as they were available. As such, most stores likely have, at any time an adventuring party comes through the door, at most a couple of random items for resale and a half dozen common ones they believe will sell fairly fast that they crafted themselves. They might have potential buyers lined up for certain types of items the party would be trying to sell (though I wouldn't take that too far either), but when it comes to finding the exact item they want to be bought off the shelf the PCs should be more than a little bit lucky. Commissioning could be an option, but given the time constraints for most campaigns not a practical one. I can see maybe one or two magic stores in an entire setting break that mold by having a large variety of items in stock, but in most campaigns - including ones where magical items actually are common - I'd expect magic stores to be of interest to the PCs mostly as a way to offload stuff they have no interest in themselves, not as a way to make their wish list reality. The existence of such stores would still be plausible, realistic and economically viable though.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I like those low level magic weapons that do not grant a bonus to hit or damage they just make the weapon magical and that will bypass resistance and immunity to them all the while not making the enemy easier to hit. Its items like these that are valuable to a lower level party, myself I love magic items like the Clothes of Mending and the Shiftweave outfits from Eberron. I still do like the big awesome cool stuff like Staff of the Magi and so on but that's high level play and not found in magic shops.
The other thing for me is that WOTC then in Dragon of Icespire peak provide a load of magic items. Like you say the approach taken is, here is all this stuff, now please don’t use it.
If I wanted to play a game with no magic items there are plenty of systems available.
I will refrain from a discussion about meta gaming here, but will just say in 30 years of roleplay I have yet to experience this mystical jealousy that supposedly happens when one player gets a magic item. In fact I have been in many many situations, both as DM and as a player where the party have all put funds in to buy that magic item for that character knowing there won’t be another for a while.
As I have said I always have magic shops and this myth about them breaking the game is just that, a myth that is actually false.
I don’t think it’s luck, this play has been multiple systems, multiple people. I think it is down to DM game management and setting expectations.
I understand the theory of how magic shops could break a game in a certain way, but please don’t tell me they only work in a high magic setting. Instead say they only work in your world in a high magic setting, many many of us get them to fit successfully in a very low magic setting.
In old-school gaming if you're jealous about someone else's magic item you kill them and take it from their corpse.
Erm... A single example of a setting that's on the extreme side by your own admission isn't much of an argument that all D&D settings require a high level of suspension of disbelief. Regardless, even if that were true it wouldn't be an argument against trying to make things as internally consistent as possible and magic shops with limited inventory are - in most settings - internally consistent.
Can I ask where it says "now please don't use it"? As far as I can tell the books suggest not having anything and everything available for the players to buy; they don't seem to suggest not giving them magical items. I might have missed something though, the 5E DMG in particular tends to be unable to hold my interest.
Side note regarding later posts in the thread: jealousy means not wanting others to have what's yours; envy means wanting what others have.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Not pointing at you necessarily, I just like to know what in the DMG or PHB actually suggests magic items shouldn't be used, if anything. Because all I see is indications they should be used, just not willy-nilly.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
It's a figure of speech. In this case pointing out that the books or here in this particular example gives tons and tons of magic items, ways to make them but then says that MI's are rare and cost so much money no one can afford them. That players will have difficulty selling them as no one can afford them and that to be able to buy one is, almost unheard of. That's a tldr of that part of the DMG. And Xanathar's. This is of course contradicted with every official settings abundance of magic items. Or that making healing potions and magical scrolls is an easy way to make money, even for pc's. Or that Wizards need to be able to buy scrolls if they want new spells.
I don't think it says it explicitly, but it is implied that magic items should rarely be given to players (because it's reasonable to assume that anything given to the players will be used). The DMG stresses how rare it is, and looking at the item crafting tables of Xanathar's, it's also implied there too.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Don't go there nothing of a setting will remain, because otherwise I will start giving numbers of how many guards Paris had in the Middle ages. It's a lot less than what you would imagine. We're playing a fantasy game, not Darkest Europe Simulator. And especially not with the rules in the DMG about how to run a business, were you have 40 % to lose money, 20 % to break even and a 40 % chance to make a profit every tenday. Now the same page in the DMG says that to create a common magic item costs 100 gold. The rules as written don't work.
"Few people can afford to buy a magic item, and fewer still know how to find one. Adventurers are exceptional in this regard due to the nature of their profession." -The DMG literally says adventurers (aka the PCs) are exceptional when it comes to being able to afford magic items. How easy or hard it might be for them to get rid of such items is frankly largely immaterial. The point is the book suggests player characters can afford magic items and know how to find them. Figure of speech or not, the message of the books as far as I can find it is not the message that's being espoused here. If someone can correct me I'll happily accept that, but again: I'm not seeing it so far. All I'm seeing are allegations I can't seem to corroborate with actual passages from the PHB or DMG.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
The book says that it's easier for pc's to find MAgic Items because they adventure and pillage tombs, dungeons, ancient cities. Places were you can find them. That's implication behind that sentence.
Yes, which means they have easier access than most. Which contradicts "please don't use it". That's all I'm looking for here: something in the books that actually means "please don't use [magic items]".
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Ok, then to what end is that pertinent? I've seen the argument that the DMG provides a laundry list of magic items while at the same time suggesting not to use them. Magic retailers existing or not isn't even part of that necessarily - if the party finds things in the field they have access to those things which means they're in use. I'm just trying to cut to the chase and either corroborate or put to bed one or two claims I've seen made that I don't believe are correct. If we can agree there's no factual basis in the core books for the "please don't use it" claim, I'd be happy to move along and maybe dig in to this separate notion about the existence of magic retailers pushing suspension of disbelief.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
It's not please don't use it but please do it your way.
It's the same with the swings and roundabouts Sage Advice What happens if a druid wears metal armor?
Advice indicates that the druid doesn't explode suggesting druid access to metal armour but also says that "your DM has the final say on how far you can go and still be considered a member of the class" facilitating a potential complete cut-off.
Same as the situation here. DMs can optionally give abundant access to magic items or not.
Wow. I'm sorry that you have play with people like that. I have plenty of gaming experience that is nothing like this. BigLizard and others report to as well. Do try to remember that your gaming experience is not definitive of the game--and thank goodness for that TBH.