I dont even think the give advantage part is a problem. For me, it comes down to the fact that there are other reaction spells I'd take first. I will always take shield over silvery barbs as a player. It's hard for me to think that it's 'broken', a word thrown around far too much, when it's not even a must-pick for my characters.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I think the issue is the Bias of memory, so a DM will remember and focus on the one or 2 times that Silvery Barbs caused them an issue, but in reality across all the combat rounds run the spell has very little impact.
I think the issue is the Bias of memory, so a DM will remember and focus on the one or 2 times that Silvery Barbs caused them an issue, but in reality across all the combat rounds run the spell has very little impact.
After a few years of playing with it, I concur. Shield is still the much more impactful spell over the course of a campaign.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
i'm pretty sure that it will be very hard to see a monster get a critical now.
Loss of rare criticals in exchange for them wasting all the spell slots before you spring a boss fight on them? A bargain for the DM!
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Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
If crits are rare they wont be wasting all their spell slots on them. And I suspect they wont be using it against the Cr 1 creature that crits but more the giant that crits. So they will have plenty to use on the boss.
If crits are rare they wont be wasting all their spell slots on them. And I suspect they wont be using it against the Cr 1 creature that crits but more the giant that crits. So they will have plenty to use on the boss.
At which point they've deliberately chosen to conserve resources for a big fight, which isn't something I'd care to punitively punish players for.
Honestly, for the vast majority of creatures negating crits is not a big deal, because even at high CRs damage dice per attack usually isn't that high, they just have more and more attacks.
Crits sound scarier than they really are. Every time a nat20 is rolled, everyone at the table gets excited, but it's pretty rare that the damage is notably outside of the normal range of damage (which makes sense when you think about it). If you didn't know it was a nat20, most of the time you wouldn't remark on the damage total, or maybe you think it was a nice attack but not really special. Obviously, it's higher than normal, but it's not a killer outside of the early levels. The exceptions are when a Paladin hits due to Divine Smite or a Rogue does due to Sneak Attack and their ability to choose whether to invoke it or not. That does make a substantial difference - but not really relevant to Silvery Barbs.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
If crits are rare they wont be wasting all their spell slots on them. And I suspect they wont be using it against the Cr 1 creature that crits but more the giant that crits. So they will have plenty to use on the boss.
At which point they've deliberately chosen to conserve resources for a big fight, which isn't something I'd care to punitively punish players for.
I would not call that conserving resources, its not wasting resources frivolously. It is like rewarding people for not fire balling a lone CR 1 orc. Good thing you saved your resources there guy, using that cantrip against the non threat good choice.
Crits sound scarier than they really are. Every time a nat20 is rolled, everyone at the table gets excited, but it's pretty rare that the damage is notably outside of the normal range of damage (which makes sense when you think about it). If you didn't know it was a nat20, most of the time you wouldn't remark on the damage total, or maybe you think it was a nice attack but not really special. Obviously, it's higher than normal, but it's not a killer outside of the early levels. The exceptions are when a Paladin hits due to Divine Smite or a Rogue does due to Sneak Attack and their ability to choose whether to invoke it or not. That does make a substantial difference - but not really relevant to Silvery Barbs.
Thats because most enemies are not threats in the slightest in this game. The ones that can be though usually still have clutch moments they need to pan out in order to be a threat and they can get trivialized by low level spell. That seems off to me.
If all Silvery Barbs did was force an enemy to reroll, ok.
If all Silvery Barbs did was allow an ally (including self) to gain advantage on their next roll (including attack rolls which means granting Sneak Attack), ok.
But doing both, without a save to resist it, at the low, low cost of a 1st level slot and Reaction - No.
Make it a second level spell slot, and I'll consider it. Even Counterspell now allows a save to resist (I know Silvery Barbs is still 2014, hasn't been updated (yet))
Bane applies a d4 penalty on up to 3 targets (with a 1st level slot), but each gets a save to resist which means you'll likely only affect 1, maybe 2; and it costs both a 1st level slot and Action to cast. Legendary Resistance can avoid it, and main baddies are unlikely to fail their save against it (Silvery Barbs works against anyone, every time)
Shield is awesome, and is still the go to choice if you are the one being targeted, buf if you're not the target, then Silvery Barbs is the clear choice. Let's also not forgot that at the low low cost of a 1st level slot, which most casters have in abundance once past the lowest levels.
It effectively negates crits, and is quite frankly the primary use of the spell.
The fact that it can negate a crit (no save), AND then give an ally advantage (which can mean Sneak Attack), and it only costs a Reaction and 1st level slot make it a NO GO at our tables. We have 4 DMs in our extended group, some of us with 40+ yrs of experience as DMs, and NONE of us allow that spell.
You are of course free to make your own ruling at your table, but the spells banned at our table are: 1. Silvery Barbs 2. Raulothim's Psychic Lance (speak someone's name and if they're in range they take damage = hard no) 3. Sickening Radiance (damage + exhaustion + prevents invisible, the exhaustion alone means 6 rounds within the spell = death. Every pt of exhaustion (even worse in 2024) means a -2 (cumulative) to their next save vs the spell, and at 6 levels you're dead regardless of level, HD, or HP - Cast this in an enclosed area, wait the 10 minute duration, and everything within is guaranteed to be dead = hard no)
i'm pretty sure that it will be very hard to see a monster get a critical now.
Honestly, my DM doesn't really like getting crits on the party, and it makes things a bit more swingy than he'd like. He's happy to see us negate crits, because it's fun for us and makes his life a bit easier. He's not trying to 'win'. and monsters not critting on us makes it easier to make things tight without killing us.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Let's compare to two other spells in a broadly similar vein to Silvery Barbs, spells which are widely accepted as also being Very Good, but which are perfectly fine to use and under no illusions of being 'busted' - Shield and Faerie Fire.
Shield is a go-to defensive spell for virtually any spellcaster that can take it, adding a potent +5 AC bonus for the entire round. It's overwhelmingly used against attacks that would hit but are turned into misses, which is exactly the same thing Silvery Barbs seeks to do against attacks.
I don't think it is broken, I think it is set at the wrong level. Its a valid spell if its level was very slightly higher.
Not a good comparison as Shield is far more limited, to only affect AC, so it is only going to be affecting attack rolls against that AC. Where Barbs can affect any d20. That's attacks, save, ability checks, DC checks, etc, etc. That's a big jump in what it can affect compared to Shield. That is a power jump. IMO that right there alone warrants a level increase.
And then the advantage roll has that same diversity in what it affects as well.
And all of that is without any save to negate.
In a game I'm running I'd move it to be a 2nd or 3rd level.
It's a single roll of the d20 that it imposed disadvantage on though, and a single roll that it grants advantage to. Statistically, that's worth about +/-3 each
Shield grants +5 to every attack against you for a round.
There is no way that Silvery Barbs is worth two extra spell slot levels more than Shield. It's more flexible and has more effects but is much shorter in duration. I'd say it's worth about level 1.5. Awkwardly, it's worth a bit more than a L1 slot, but not enough for a L2 slot.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Frankly, until late tier 2 it’s a fairly limited value option- compared to other methods of interfering with an attack roll it’s resource inefficient, and while advantage on an attack is always nice it’s more likely to whiff or only marginally boost the recipient’s damage output for the round. It’s best for rerolling saves, but the saves you’re most interested in rerolling tend to be the ones most monsters are strong in- CON or WIS- so that -3 average is still fairly dicey. It’s an option, but until you’ve got enough slots in the 3-5 range to cover 2 or 3 encounters, you’re generally doubling down with your effective resources on a single action when you use it to attempt to make a save fail, which is the only time it represents a real net gain for combat.
Now, once you have the resources to spare it becomes easy to spam, particularly if you end up having a lot of days with only one or two encounters and nothing else to burn spell slots on, but that is largely a slightly more pointed case of what already needs to be done as you enter tier 3 if you want to push a party- draw out an adventuring day with several strong encounters so they can’t just nuke the boss at the end of things. Notably, the ‘24 update to the Wizard level 18 at will spells is that they need to be Action casts, so the current iteration prevents the worst potential abuse of SB.
I will say it was pretty funny watching Matt Mercer mishandle Silvery Barbs, both mechanically and strategically, in the most recent episode of CR's campaign 3. If you want a textbook example of how SB may not be all that great, that was it
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I will say it was pretty funny watching Matt Mercer mishandle Silvery Barbs, both mechanically and strategically, in the most recent episode of CR's campaign 3. If you want a textbook example of how SB may not be all that great, that was it
Would you mind summing up what happened?
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I will say it was pretty funny watching Matt Mercer mishandle Silvery Barbs, both mechanically and strategically, in the most recent episode of CR's campaign 3. If you want a textbook example of how SB may not be all that great, that was it
Just my $.02 - I peeked in this thread to see what all the fuss was about. Any DM that does not "allow" WOTC content at their tables is imho doing their tables a disservice and taking an easy out. Its that same reason I hate adventure league. If people are playing the game and its in the game they should be able to use it.
As for some of the other spells mentioned - in my extended DM circle - L1-20 Every spell, every class, every race, background, feat, from any official WOTC content is allowed. Its exciting for the players and keeps the DM on their toes.
Some Tier 3 Spells from the Epic Legacy players Guide by 2CGaming are not allowed only as they don't really leave many options other than a deific counter and even at level 26+ that gets old fast. (edit for clarity players get a Tier 3 spell at level 26) Its not Tiers in the sense of AL. Players get a whole new set of spells per class starting at level 21 and moving on through l30.
I dont even think the give advantage part is a problem. For me, it comes down to the fact that there are other reaction spells I'd take first. I will always take shield over silvery barbs as a player. It's hard for me to think that it's 'broken', a word thrown around far too much, when it's not even a must-pick for my characters.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I think the issue is the Bias of memory, so a DM will remember and focus on the one or 2 times that Silvery Barbs caused them an issue, but in reality across all the combat rounds run the spell has very little impact.
After a few years of playing with it, I concur. Shield is still the much more impactful spell over the course of a campaign.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Wizard in my campaing got it.
i'm pretty sure that it will be very hard to see a monster get a critical now.
Loss of rare criticals in exchange for them wasting all the spell slots before you spring a boss fight on them? A bargain for the DM!
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
If crits are rare they wont be wasting all their spell slots on them. And I suspect they wont be using it against the Cr 1 creature that crits but more the giant that crits. So they will have plenty to use on the boss.
At which point they've deliberately chosen to conserve resources for a big fight, which isn't something I'd care to punitively punish players for.
Honestly, for the vast majority of creatures negating crits is not a big deal, because even at high CRs damage dice per attack usually isn't that high, they just have more and more attacks.
Crits sound scarier than they really are. Every time a nat20 is rolled, everyone at the table gets excited, but it's pretty rare that the damage is notably outside of the normal range of damage (which makes sense when you think about it). If you didn't know it was a nat20, most of the time you wouldn't remark on the damage total, or maybe you think it was a nice attack but not really special. Obviously, it's higher than normal, but it's not a killer outside of the early levels. The exceptions are when a Paladin hits due to Divine Smite or a Rogue does due to Sneak Attack and their ability to choose whether to invoke it or not. That does make a substantial difference - but not really relevant to Silvery Barbs.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I would not call that conserving resources, its not wasting resources frivolously. It is like rewarding people for not fire balling a lone CR 1 orc. Good thing you saved your resources there guy, using that cantrip against the non threat good choice.
Thats because most enemies are not threats in the slightest in this game. The ones that can be though usually still have clutch moments they need to pan out in order to be a threat and they can get trivialized by low level spell. That seems off to me.
If all Silvery Barbs did was force an enemy to reroll, ok.
If all Silvery Barbs did was allow an ally (including self) to gain advantage on their next roll (including attack rolls which means granting Sneak Attack), ok.
But doing both, without a save to resist it, at the low, low cost of a 1st level slot and Reaction - No.
Make it a second level spell slot, and I'll consider it. Even Counterspell now allows a save to resist (I know Silvery Barbs is still 2014, hasn't been updated (yet))
Bane applies a d4 penalty on up to 3 targets (with a 1st level slot), but each gets a save to resist which means you'll likely only affect 1, maybe 2; and it costs both a 1st level slot and Action to cast. Legendary Resistance can avoid it, and main baddies are unlikely to fail their save against it (Silvery Barbs works against anyone, every time)
Shield is awesome, and is still the go to choice if you are the one being targeted, buf if you're not the target, then Silvery Barbs is the clear choice. Let's also not forgot that at the low low cost of a 1st level slot, which most casters have in abundance once past the lowest levels.
It effectively negates crits, and is quite frankly the primary use of the spell.
The fact that it can negate a crit (no save), AND then give an ally advantage (which can mean Sneak Attack), and it only costs a Reaction and 1st level slot make it a NO GO at our tables. We have 4 DMs in our extended group, some of us with 40+ yrs of experience as DMs, and NONE of us allow that spell.
You are of course free to make your own ruling at your table, but the spells banned at our table are:
1. Silvery Barbs
2. Raulothim's Psychic Lance (speak someone's name and if they're in range they take damage = hard no)
3. Sickening Radiance (damage + exhaustion + prevents invisible, the exhaustion alone means 6 rounds within the spell = death. Every pt of exhaustion (even worse in 2024) means a -2 (cumulative) to their next save vs the spell, and at 6 levels you're dead regardless of level, HD, or HP - Cast this in an enclosed area, wait the 10 minute duration, and everything within is guaranteed to be dead = hard no)
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Honestly, my DM doesn't really like getting crits on the party, and it makes things a bit more swingy than he'd like. He's happy to see us negate crits, because it's fun for us and makes his life a bit easier. He's not trying to 'win'. and monsters not critting on us makes it easier to make things tight without killing us.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I don't think it is broken, I think it is set at the wrong level. Its a valid spell if its level was very slightly higher.
Not a good comparison as Shield is far more limited, to only affect AC, so it is only going to be affecting attack rolls against that AC.
Where Barbs can affect any d20. That's attacks, save, ability checks, DC checks, etc, etc. That's a big jump in what it can affect compared to Shield. That is a power jump. IMO that right there alone warrants a level increase.
And then the advantage roll has that same diversity in what it affects as well.
And all of that is without any save to negate.
In a game I'm running I'd move it to be a 2nd or 3rd level.
It's a single roll of the d20 that it imposed disadvantage on though, and a single roll that it grants advantage to. Statistically, that's worth about +/-3 each
Shield grants +5 to every attack against you for a round.
There is no way that Silvery Barbs is worth two extra spell slot levels more than Shield. It's more flexible and has more effects but is much shorter in duration. I'd say it's worth about level 1.5. Awkwardly, it's worth a bit more than a L1 slot, but not enough for a L2 slot.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Frankly, until late tier 2 it’s a fairly limited value option- compared to other methods of interfering with an attack roll it’s resource inefficient, and while advantage on an attack is always nice it’s more likely to whiff or only marginally boost the recipient’s damage output for the round. It’s best for rerolling saves, but the saves you’re most interested in rerolling tend to be the ones most monsters are strong in- CON or WIS- so that -3 average is still fairly dicey. It’s an option, but until you’ve got enough slots in the 3-5 range to cover 2 or 3 encounters, you’re generally doubling down with your effective resources on a single action when you use it to attempt to make a save fail, which is the only time it represents a real net gain for combat.
Now, once you have the resources to spare it becomes easy to spam, particularly if you end up having a lot of days with only one or two encounters and nothing else to burn spell slots on, but that is largely a slightly more pointed case of what already needs to be done as you enter tier 3 if you want to push a party- draw out an adventuring day with several strong encounters so they can’t just nuke the boss at the end of things. Notably, the ‘24 update to the Wizard level 18 at will spells is that they need to be Action casts, so the current iteration prevents the worst potential abuse of SB.
I will say it was pretty funny watching Matt Mercer mishandle Silvery Barbs, both mechanically and strategically, in the most recent episode of CR's campaign 3. If you want a textbook example of how SB may not be all that great, that was it
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Would you mind summing up what happened?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Which episode?
Just my $.02 - I peeked in this thread to see what all the fuss was about. Any DM that does not "allow" WOTC content at their tables is imho doing their tables a disservice and taking an easy out. Its that same reason I hate adventure league. If people are playing the game and its in the game they should be able to use it.
As for some of the other spells mentioned - in my extended DM circle - L1-20 Every spell, every class, every race, background, feat, from any official WOTC content is allowed. Its exciting for the players and keeps the DM on their toes.
Some Tier 3 Spells from the Epic Legacy players Guide by 2CGaming are not allowed only as they don't really leave many options other than a deific counter and even at level 26+ that gets old fast. (edit for clarity players get a Tier 3 spell at level 26) Its not Tiers in the sense of AL. Players get a whole new set of spells per class starting at level 21 and moving on through l30.