I am currently about to embark on Descent into Avernus with a cool idea for a build. A Fighter (Echo Knight)/Wizard (Chronurgy) MC who bends and folds time to be effective in battle. From the EK perspective, he pulls versions of himself from other dimensions to aid in battle, but also calls upon buff spells (Haste, Mirror Image, Blur, Misty Step) and Temporal Awareness to fold or reverse time to change the outcome of events.
I think the build is a cool idea but SUPER MAD (STR + INT + CON) to be effective. The DM is starting us at level 5 and allowing us to each have an uncommon magic item at start.
My question is this, is there are downside to having my magic item be either Gauntlet of Ogre Strength (STR) or Headband of Intellect (INT) to make the class a bit less MAD? Furthermore, should I even consider dumping STR (if I take gauntlet) or INT (headband) and reallocating those points into other stats (CON, DEX).
This would essentially make me dependent on the magic item to be functional, and would take up one attunement slot, but would allow me to play at peak attributes for the campaign. Would love to get this group's feelings on doing this. Upside? Downside?
If your DM is outright giving you a magic item right off the bat, I think this is a really clever way to use it for a unique fun build. I'd probably go with a Headband of Intellect... there's the possibility of losing it at some point, which is always a problem, and despite being a wizard the spells you listed actually don't call for a spell attack or a saving throw... you benefit from high INT, but you don't rely on it as much as STR and CON.
You'll be dependent on the DM to get the item. Depending on what the DM thinks, you may or may not be able to obtain them. Even if you do, you mag have to go several levels without them.
On the other hand, you may be able to get away with not needing them.
Edit: Missed the bit about being given a magic item.
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Mechanically, there's very little downside to building around the item if you know you have access to it. A lot of DMs frowny-face at it though, since it reeks of MMO Gamer Nonsense whilst also allowing players to outperform what The Book says they should do. That said, it can be pretty easy to craft a good set of story hooks for doing so - Perhaps your ChronoKnight started learning magic in the first place to overcome their physical weakness and obtained the gauntlets as a prize, or perhaps you were apprenticed to a wizard who despaired of you ever being worth his time and so he decided to cheat a little, hoping you could eventually stop being so stupid and wean yourself off of it once you had a good example of being intelligent. Make it part of the story and you'll generally do better.
I'd also be sure to have a plan in place for if I lose the item in question. Intelligence is less critical to a frontline swordman-with-spells than Strength is, so the Headband seems a better idea, and I'd be prepared to have at least some intelligence under it, and/or configure my spellbook to be less reliant on saving-throw or spell-attack spells than most. Be aware that your stat slap patch may end up burgled or disabled and have a fallback option.
Yes the DM is outright starting us with the item so I can guarantee I have it. Now KEEPING it is another story.
My thought was the headband as well and keep INT at 13 (the minimum to MC). As stated above, most spells I am selecting for flavor are buffs and thus don't even need a high spell attack or DC. On the flipside, keeping a base 13 INT allows me to redeploy to CON to offset my general Wiz squishy nature.
I just think the idea sounds too cool to not try out. I do worry a bit about losing the item and ending up being underpowered mid campaign, but I like Yurei453's idea of baking the item into the backstory. I would, however, like to still have some offensive spells (lightning bolt) or control (polymorph) so getting that INT to 19 sounds like a really nice boon out of the gate.
If I were you, I would dump CON and get an Amulet of Health. It's a lot easier (for me) to justify a sickly guy who learned to fight/be a wizard than a kinda weak/dumb one. Plus, losing the item makes you squishier, but it doesn't outright cripple your build.
If I were you, I would dump CON and get an Amulet of Health. It's a lot easier (for me) to justify a sickly guy who learned to fight/be a wizard than a kinda weak/dumb one. Plus, losing the item makes you squishier, but it doesn't outright cripple your build.
While that's normally true, Echo Knight specifically has a lot of abilities that key off of CON. This build can work without INT, since smart spell selection can compensate for low INT scores (such as focusing on spells that don't rely on spell saves), but there's no compensating for low CON in Echo Knight.
If I were you, I would dump CON and get an Amulet of Health. It's a lot easier (for me) to justify a sickly guy who learned to fight/be a wizard than a kinda weak/dumb one. Plus, losing the item makes you squishier, but it doesn't outright cripple your build.
While that's normally true, Echo Knight specifically has a lot of abilities that key off of CON. This build can work without INT, since smart spell selection can compensate for low INT scores (such as focusing on spells that don't rely on spell saves), but there's no compensating for low CON in Echo Knight.
Ah, right. I forgot about that. Still, I kinda like the amulet idea back-story wise. Like, he used to be a big, healthy guy, then got the devil rot or whatever, and now he needs the amulet to keep him going.
The Amulet of Health is Rare, not Uncommon. Not in scope for this discussion, sadly.
Ah, more 5e weirdness on the rarity of magic items. Silly of me to assume that all "this ability score is 19 now" items are the same rarity level.
To be fair, Constitution is significantly more valuable than Strength or Intelligence. Constitution directly governs hit points and it's one of the big three saves. Intelligence is the weakest, lowest-impact stat in D&D 5e by a country mile - there is actually factually zero mechanical reason not to make Intelligence your weakest score unless your class specifically needs Int. Intelligence does nothing for a character, which I find incredibly distasteful but eh. Strength is definitely second on the list; it's useful for raw musclepower tasks like moving things, breaking things, and it governs the highly desirable Athletics skill, but it's still fifth down on priority for almost all builds. It's why those two stats get booster items; I'm legit kinda surprised the Amulet of health even exists.
The Amulet of Health is Rare, not Uncommon. Not in scope for this discussion, sadly.
Ah, more 5e weirdness on the rarity of magic items. Silly of me to assume that all "this ability score is 19 now" items are the same rarity level.
To be fair, Constitution is significantly more valuable than Strength or Intelligence. Constitution directly governs hit points and it's one of the big three saves. Intelligence is the weakest, lowest-impact stat in D&D 5e by a country mile - there is actually factually zero mechanical reason not to make Intelligence your weakest score unless your class specifically needs Int. Intelligence does nothing for a character, which I find incredibly distasteful but eh. Strength is definitely second on the list; it's useful for raw musclepower tasks like moving things, breaking things, and it governs the highly desirable Athletics skill, but it's still fifth down on priority for almost all builds. It's why those two stats get booster items; I'm legit kinda surprised the Amulet of health even exists.
This does happen to be the exact reason why I tend to pick up spells that target Int saves for my arcane casters. Even among NPCs the Int saves tend to be weak.
On topic: I've run quite a few campaigns using rolled statlines. Giving the PC of a player who was less fortunate with their rolls something magical to shore up an attribute was a typical solution for stat imbalances. In the end it'll come down to whether your DM wants to make something of it or not. Taking that item away from your character isn't inherently fun or interesting, but they might have something in mind that is.
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Agreeing with everyone else. As long as the DM is on board from the start, then it's all fair play.
Characters with exploitable weaknesses are more interesting than those without. Some people have a physical disability, others have personality flaws, and addiction/dependence upon a magical crutch fits right in.
The DM is giving all PCs in the party a starting uncommon magic item, so she would really need to be a hardass to set that standard just to then plan around taking it away from them. Plus, if everyone has a magic item, unless you figure out a way to take it away from EVERYONE (which feels complex and overengineering a campaign), then that one player is even FURTHER behind the rest of the party and feels that much more disinterested. No, I would imagine that the DM plans to make the campaign a tad difficult so is trying to even the score a bit. I don't think the setup makes sense to target taking away those items mid-campaign.
There is no need to literally take the magic item away. Antimagic zones can do the trick just fine, and can come from spells, monsters, or other sources.
Exploiting a character weakness is best done fairly rarely. It's a good way to shake up the status quo when things need some excitement. Kinda like an underwater adventure, or a Jailbreak sequence.
However, yes. Most tables are likely to simply scale the encounter CR to adjust for player boons.
As long as long as both you and your DM are with it, there is nothing wrong with it. Just be prepared for it to be a plot hook (if you integrate it well into your backstory).
Honestly, intelligence seems like the better item choice both in your less screwed if you lose and the fluff for the precise mechanics leaves a lot of room to play with in comparison to the strength item.
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I am currently about to embark on Descent into Avernus with a cool idea for a build. A Fighter (Echo Knight)/Wizard (Chronurgy) MC who bends and folds time to be effective in battle. From the EK perspective, he pulls versions of himself from other dimensions to aid in battle, but also calls upon buff spells (Haste, Mirror Image, Blur, Misty Step) and Temporal Awareness to fold or reverse time to change the outcome of events.
I think the build is a cool idea but SUPER MAD (STR + INT + CON) to be effective. The DM is starting us at level 5 and allowing us to each have an uncommon magic item at start.
My question is this, is there are downside to having my magic item be either Gauntlet of Ogre Strength (STR) or Headband of Intellect (INT) to make the class a bit less MAD? Furthermore, should I even consider dumping STR (if I take gauntlet) or INT (headband) and reallocating those points into other stats (CON, DEX).
This would essentially make me dependent on the magic item to be functional, and would take up one attunement slot, but would allow me to play at peak attributes for the campaign. Would love to get this group's feelings on doing this. Upside? Downside?
Thanks.
If your DM is outright giving you a magic item right off the bat, I think this is a really clever way to use it for a unique fun build. I'd probably go with a Headband of Intellect... there's the possibility of losing it at some point, which is always a problem, and despite being a wizard the spells you listed actually don't call for a spell attack or a saving throw... you benefit from high INT, but you don't rely on it as much as STR and CON.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
You'll be dependent on the DM to get the item. Depending on what the DM thinks, you may or may not be able to obtain them. Even if you do, you mag have to go several levels without them.
On the other hand, you may be able to get away with not needing them.
Edit: Missed the bit about being given a magic item.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Mechanically, there's very little downside to building around the item if you know you have access to it. A lot of DMs frowny-face at it though, since it reeks of MMO Gamer Nonsense whilst also allowing players to outperform what The Book says they should do. That said, it can be pretty easy to craft a good set of story hooks for doing so - Perhaps your ChronoKnight started learning magic in the first place to overcome their physical weakness and obtained the gauntlets as a prize, or perhaps you were apprenticed to a wizard who despaired of you ever being worth his time and so he decided to cheat a little, hoping you could eventually stop being so stupid and wean yourself off of it once you had a good example of being intelligent. Make it part of the story and you'll generally do better.
I'd also be sure to have a plan in place for if I lose the item in question. Intelligence is less critical to a frontline swordman-with-spells than Strength is, so the Headband seems a better idea, and I'd be prepared to have at least some intelligence under it, and/or configure my spellbook to be less reliant on saving-throw or spell-attack spells than most. Be aware that your stat slap patch may end up burgled or disabled and have a fallback option.
Please do not contact or message me.
Yes the DM is outright starting us with the item so I can guarantee I have it. Now KEEPING it is another story.
My thought was the headband as well and keep INT at 13 (the minimum to MC). As stated above, most spells I am selecting for flavor are buffs and thus don't even need a high spell attack or DC. On the flipside, keeping a base 13 INT allows me to redeploy to CON to offset my general Wiz squishy nature.
I just think the idea sounds too cool to not try out. I do worry a bit about losing the item and ending up being underpowered mid campaign, but I like Yurei453's idea of baking the item into the backstory. I would, however, like to still have some offensive spells (lightning bolt) or control (polymorph) so getting that INT to 19 sounds like a really nice boon out of the gate.
If I were you, I would dump CON and get an Amulet of Health. It's a lot easier (for me) to justify a sickly guy who learned to fight/be a wizard than a kinda weak/dumb one. Plus, losing the item makes you squishier, but it doesn't outright cripple your build.
While that's normally true, Echo Knight specifically has a lot of abilities that key off of CON. This build can work without INT, since smart spell selection can compensate for low INT scores (such as focusing on spells that don't rely on spell saves), but there's no compensating for low CON in Echo Knight.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
Ah, right. I forgot about that. Still, I kinda like the amulet idea back-story wise. Like, he used to be a big, healthy guy, then got the devil rot or whatever, and now he needs the amulet to keep him going.
The Amulet of Health is Rare, not Uncommon. Not in scope for this discussion, sadly.
Please do not contact or message me.
Ah, more 5e weirdness on the rarity of magic items. Silly of me to assume that all "this ability score is 19 now" items are the same rarity level.
To be fair, Constitution is significantly more valuable than Strength or Intelligence. Constitution directly governs hit points and it's one of the big three saves. Intelligence is the weakest, lowest-impact stat in D&D 5e by a country mile - there is actually factually zero mechanical reason not to make Intelligence your weakest score unless your class specifically needs Int. Intelligence does nothing for a character, which I find incredibly distasteful but eh. Strength is definitely second on the list; it's useful for raw musclepower tasks like moving things, breaking things, and it governs the highly desirable Athletics skill, but it's still fifth down on priority for almost all builds. It's why those two stats get booster items; I'm legit kinda surprised the Amulet of health even exists.
Please do not contact or message me.
This does happen to be the exact reason why I tend to pick up spells that target Int saves for my arcane casters. Even among NPCs the Int saves tend to be weak.
On topic: I've run quite a few campaigns using rolled statlines. Giving the PC of a player who was less fortunate with their rolls something magical to shore up an attribute was a typical solution for stat imbalances. In the end it'll come down to whether your DM wants to make something of it or not. Taking that item away from your character isn't inherently fun or interesting, but they might have something in mind that is.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Agreeing with everyone else. As long as the DM is on board from the start, then it's all fair play.
Characters with exploitable weaknesses are more interesting than those without. Some people have a physical disability, others have personality flaws, and addiction/dependence upon a magical crutch fits right in.
The DM is giving all PCs in the party a starting uncommon magic item, so she would really need to be a hardass to set that standard just to then plan around taking it away from them. Plus, if everyone has a magic item, unless you figure out a way to take it away from EVERYONE (which feels complex and overengineering a campaign), then that one player is even FURTHER behind the rest of the party and feels that much more disinterested. No, I would imagine that the DM plans to make the campaign a tad difficult so is trying to even the score a bit. I don't think the setup makes sense to target taking away those items mid-campaign.
There is no need to literally take the magic item away. Antimagic zones can do the trick just fine, and can come from spells, monsters, or other sources.
Exploiting a character weakness is best done fairly rarely. It's a good way to shake up the status quo when things need some excitement. Kinda like an underwater adventure, or a Jailbreak sequence.
However, yes. Most tables are likely to simply scale the encounter CR to adjust for player boons.
As long as long as both you and your DM are with it, there is nothing wrong with it. Just be prepared for it to be a plot hook (if you integrate it well into your backstory).
Honestly, intelligence seems like the better item choice both in your less screwed if you lose and the fluff for the precise mechanics leaves a lot of room to play with in comparison to the strength item.