+1 for the whole "this creature is meh because it is beaten by this specific character" argument being a load of tripe.
Yes, if the demilich with antimagic is facing a party of paladins whose abilities bypass the 'lichs abilities, then yes, the demilich is going to die. But if it is facing a party with an artificer, a ranger, a fighter and a wizard, then things matter. antimagic renders most of the party ineffective.
Every creature has a weakness. You might as well say "trolls are weak because if the party uses fire then they will beat it", or "Tarrasques are weak because if the party can fly, they can beat it", or "Vampires suck because if the party fights them in daylght outside then they will beat them".
For a project I once tried to put every creature in the monster manual through the CR calculator from the DMG.
According to my notes; the Demilich has an offensive CR of 10 and a defensive CR of 22 giving an overall CR of 16. The official CR is 18, so there's not much between them.
The defensive CR is so high because of the Demilich's; immunities, legendary resistances, saving throws, Life drain attack and Avoidance. It's offensive CR is relatively low because it doesn't do much damage for the CR given, however the DMG method doesn't account for attacks that can instakill, which might be why it's lower.
A single lvl 5 sorcerer can defeat one, using no weird gimmicks or feat / multiclass. If it dashes and uses legendary action, it can move a maximum of 75 feet per round. If the sorcerer casts extended haste on itself and uses its haste action to just run away, it can easily out pace the demilich.
Not only that, but none of the lich’s abilities have a range further then 30 feet, so even if he did almost catch up, nothing would happen.
A single lvl 5 sorcerer can defeat one, using no weird gimmicks or feat / multiclass. If it dashes and uses legendary action, it can move a maximum of 75 feet per round. If the sorcerer casts extended haste on itself and uses its haste action to just run away, it can easily out pace the demilich.
Not only that, but none of the lich’s abilities have a range further then 30 feet, so even if he did almost catch up, nothing would happen.
Have fun grinding them!
things that will never happen for 300 pls
Yeah, any fight plan that requires an empty salt pan is on the same level as a plan that requires the enemy to only roll 1s.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I mean, there's way more kitable monsters than a demilich. The classic for this is the first level aarakokra cleric taking down the Tarrasque by spamming Sacred Flame.
I mean, there's way more kitable monsters than a demilich. The classic for this is the first level aarakokra cleric taking down the Tarrasque by spamming Sacred Flame.
And that will never ever work in my game. I thank God that I was around for the 1e version. Same with demilich.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I mean, there's way more kitable monsters than a demilich. The classic for this is the first level aarakokra cleric taking down the Tarrasque by spamming Sacred Flame.
And that will never ever work in my game. I thank God that I was around for the 1e version. Same with demilich.
In 1e about the earliest you could cheese the Tarrasque was level 7 (because no-save fear), but it had the same problem of zero ability to deal with flying opponents. The only edition that actually had a method of dealing with fliers was 4e, though the 3.5e version was durable enough that it could just ignore the buzzing flies of low to mid level characters.
I mean, there's way more kitable monsters than a demilich. The classic for this is the first level aarakokra cleric taking down the Tarrasque by spamming Sacred Flame.
This is why they should have gone full Godzilla with it and given it a breath weapon
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I mean, there's way more kitable monsters than a demilich. The classic for this is the first level aarakokra cleric taking down the Tarrasque by spamming Sacred Flame.
This is why they should have gone full Godzilla with it and given it a breath weapon
I just put damage thresholds on large monsters, though I do it by turn rather than by attack. i.e.
Legendary Resilience: if the Tarrasque takes less than 20 points of damage in one turn from one character, it ignores that damage.
That won't prevent high level parties from taking it down, but does mean it can't be overwhelmed by chaff.
I mean, there's way more kitable monsters than a demilich. The classic for this is the first level aarakokra cleric taking down the Tarrasque by spamming Sacred Flame.
This is why they should have gone full Godzilla with it and given it a breath weapon
I just put damage thresholds on large monsters, though I do it by turn rather than by attack. i.e.
Legendary Resilience: if the Tarrasque takes less than 20 points of damage in one turn from one character, it ignores that damage.
That won't prevent high level parties from taking it down, but does mean it can't be overwhelmed by chaff.
It would be better as damage reduction. Otherwise If an attacker does 21 then it takes 21. If it were damage reduction then 21 damage would just be 1 =)
And ALSO give it regeneration.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I find it funny that people in one breath would modify a Tarrasque’s ability stat block but in the same thread chastise others for modifying a Demilich.
Let’s agree that the Demilich doesn’t sit around in a field waiting for someone to ambush it. It’s smart.
But let’s also agree that a Tarrasque doesn’t care about adventurers either (or about as much as you care about a mosquito a block away) . It travels up to 140ft per round (with Dash and Legendaries). It reaches and obliterates an undefended village miles away an hour before your party gets there. You arrive just in time to heal a couple people and continue the chase.
By sheer luck your Wizard Dimension Doors himself and a party member to within range of the Tarrasque. The Tarrasque uses Frightful Presence and makes five attacks - two claws, one horn, one tail, and one bite on its turn. The bite hits and the target is frightened, grappled and restrained. The Tarrasque then moves 40 ft for movement, 20ft with Legendary Actions, and Swallows the bitten target with its last Legendary Action. All in one round.
Next round? It’s moving 140ft per round again to the next city, outpacing your entire party to the next town. Except now it has a party member in its belly frightened, blinded, and restrained taking 16d6 acid damage each turn.
So yeah, I don’t see the Aarakocra/Tarrasque scenario any more realistic than the Paladins ambushing a prone Demilich in a field scenario.
The demilich is a tricky monster for calculating CR. It has low hit points, but very good resistances and the ability to regain hit points very quickly with Life Drain. But even so it is vulnerable to spells like magic missile, scorching ray and even cantrips like Fire Bolt. I have used them a few times, and they typically get the drop on the party. In my experience they are pretty swingy - I've seem them nearly TPK a party, and I've seen them go down in 2 rounds. The level of the party isn't even a great predictor, as far as I can tell.
I feel this is a problem that many high CR monsters have - particularly monsters from the MM or VGtM. But it's a problem greatly exaggerated by the design of the Demilich.
The demilich is a tricky monster for calculating CR. It has low hit points, but very good resistances and the ability to regain hit points very quickly with Life Drain. But even so it is vulnerable to spells like magic missile, scorching ray and even cantrips like Fire Bolt. I have used them a few times, and they typically get the drop on the party. In my experience they are pretty swingy - I've seem them nearly TPK a party, and I've seen them go down in 2 rounds. The level of the party isn't even a great predictor, as far as I can tell.
I feel this is a problem that many high CR monsters have - particularly monsters from the MM or VGtM. But it's a problem greatly exaggerated by the design of the Demilich.
Beholders are certainly similar. They only have a 30% chance of a damage dealing eye ray, so sometimes you get MAXIMUM FIREPOWER and sometimes you get diddely squat in terms of DPR. given that most combats last 2-3 rounds, a whole round of missed damage opportunities is a huge loss.
One item too that factors into encounter design is that parties are very unlikely to encounter these monsters when they are fresh...usually they are at the end of an adventuring day. A Demilich or any other swingy type monster is a much different fight if you have full health and all abilities, compared to having limited options due to previous encounters
Beholders are certainly similar. They only have a 30% chance of a damage dealing eye ray, so sometimes you get MAXIMUM FIREPOWER and sometimes you get diddely squat in terms of DPR. given that most combats last 2-3 rounds, a whole round of missed damage opportunities is a huge loss.
Given that it's probably using 6 eye rays per turn, the randomness isn't that large. Missing generates lots of randomness too.
An alternative to randomness is making it exclusive so you can only use each eye beam once a turn but even that only leads to a maximum of 7/10 getting use. I think lore wise how it works is that the beholder is covered in eyes and its just which ever one happens to be facing you.
And what tomb would be designed in such a way that would allow this to happen?
A dual wielding Level 15 Paladin solo that wins initiative one shots the demi-lich doing 92 hit points damage with at least a 50% chance to hit.
Its the standard problem of of CR balancing at higher levels. Its almost like the game designers didn't play a lot of the monsters in a fight with a an average party before publishing. Its a CR 10 monster as designed, not CR 18. If they move the Demi-liches hitpoints into the mid 200's its a CR18. The monster doesn't have the hit points to stay alive long enough to use its abilities.
Is that 92 damage after resistances? because if your paladin is doing the 184 damage with a magic weapon required to achieve that damage total, that pretty impressive. If either dual wielded weapon is non-magical, then that damage is negated because the demilich is immune.
Also, your stance assumes the paladin 1) wins initiative, 2) started combat close enough to the demilich to reach it without dashing, and 3) hits all its attacks (against AC 20). It also assumes that the paladin had a initiative >20 as otherwise it will have to deal with one of a number of nasty lair actions first, including the personal antimagic field which would effectively reduce that paladin's first turn damage to a big ol' zero. (since its weapons would be non-magical and it's spells wouldn't work)
A level 15 paladin will have two magic weapons and should have at least a +10 to hit at 15, if they are playing vengeance, as a bonus action they now have advantage on hits meaning they have a +14.25 to hit. The majority of the damage is coming from smites. He can do two level 4 smites 5d8 + 1d8 (undead) + 1d8 (class feature) so 7d8 X 2 and a 6d8 for a level 3 smite = 80 hp smit damage alone ignoring weapon damage.
The Demilich doesn't have the hit points to be a CR 18 let alone the hit points to use its lair actions, it needs to be in the mid 200's to be a CR 18.
Excepts they won't do that, because a paladin will never have enough initiative to beat lair actions.
So the lich triggers antimagic, they lose their magical weapons and smiting, including the base damage provided by improved divine smite. Then you get nothing, because their weapons are non-magical, and your ****ed.
The improved divine smite does not get negated by anti-magic field. You obviously are very invested in the DemiLich being a CR 18, so congratulations to make you feel better I'll write its a CR 18. Everyone who read the basic stats I wrote, ignore it. The Demilich is a true CR 18, we all know it, it has been said.
I mean, even with that mistake, that’s still only 3d8 damage, assuming every attack hits.
At level 11, paladins get improved divine smite so they add an extra 1d8 radiant. Smites on undead add an extra 1d8. Smite base damage is 2d8 + 1d8 per spell slot over 1. A level 15 paladin gets two level 4 spell slots so:
1d8 improved
+
1d8 undead
+
2d8 base smite
+
+3d8 level 4 slot
= 7d8 base smite or 58 hit points, they get two of them so 116 max at level 4, then add in that level 3 smite at 48, max being 168 smite damage excluding weapon, cut that in half for average its 82 damage radiant excluding weapon damage, from a single PC vs a CR 18 that has 80 hps. The game designers didn't play test the demilich.
Finding a party without a paladin for campaign play is just about impossible. The charisma bonus to saves makes the Paladin a required class. I've run 3 long term 5E campaigns and at session zero they always make sure there is a paladin for saves.
I have run several campaigns, and maybe 30% of them have a paladin, so it is not impossible. You obviously are very invested in the paladin being in every campaign, everyone who is in a campaign without one must now add one. All campaigns have paladins, we all know it, it has been said.
And what tomb would be designed in such a way that would allow this to happen?
A dual wielding Level 15 Paladin solo that wins initiative one shots the demi-lich doing 92 hit points damage with at least a 50% chance to hit.
Its the standard problem of of CR balancing at higher levels. Its almost like the game designers didn't play a lot of the monsters in a fight with a an average party before publishing. Its a CR 10 monster as designed, not CR 18. If they move the Demi-liches hitpoints into the mid 200's its a CR18. The monster doesn't have the hit points to stay alive long enough to use its abilities.
Is that 92 damage after resistances? because if your paladin is doing the 184 damage with a magic weapon required to achieve that damage total, that pretty impressive. If either dual wielded weapon is non-magical, then that damage is negated because the demilich is immune.
Also, your stance assumes the paladin 1) wins initiative, 2) started combat close enough to the demilich to reach it without dashing, and 3) hits all its attacks (against AC 20). It also assumes that the paladin had a initiative >20 as otherwise it will have to deal with one of a number of nasty lair actions first, including the personal antimagic field which would effectively reduce that paladin's first turn damage to a big ol' zero. (since its weapons would be non-magical and it's spells wouldn't work)
A level 15 paladin will have two magic weapons and should have at least a +10 to hit at 15, if they are playing vengeance, as a bonus action they now have advantage on hits meaning they have a +14.25 to hit. The majority of the damage is coming from smites. He can do two level 4 smites 5d8 + 1d8 (undead) + 1d8 (class feature) so 7d8 X 2 and a 6d8 for a level 3 smite = 80 hp smit damage alone ignoring weapon damage.
The Demilich doesn't have the hit points to be a CR 18 let alone the hit points to use its lair actions, it needs to be in the mid 200's to be a CR 18.
I think using antimagic field and shaking the lair repeatedly as lair actions would negate a lot of this, wouldn't it? if your weapons are mundane now, will the improved divine smite still work?
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+1 for the whole "this creature is meh because it is beaten by this specific character" argument being a load of tripe.
Yes, if the demilich with antimagic is facing a party of paladins whose abilities bypass the 'lichs abilities, then yes, the demilich is going to die. But if it is facing a party with an artificer, a ranger, a fighter and a wizard, then things matter. antimagic renders most of the party ineffective.
Every creature has a weakness. You might as well say "trolls are weak because if the party uses fire then they will beat it", or "Tarrasques are weak because if the party can fly, they can beat it", or "Vampires suck because if the party fights them in daylght outside then they will beat them".
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
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For a project I once tried to put every creature in the monster manual through the CR calculator from the DMG.
According to my notes; the Demilich has an offensive CR of 10 and a defensive CR of 22 giving an overall CR of 16. The official CR is 18, so there's not much between them.
The defensive CR is so high because of the Demilich's; immunities, legendary resistances, saving throws, Life drain attack and Avoidance. It's offensive CR is relatively low because it doesn't do much damage for the CR given, however the DMG method doesn't account for attacks that can instakill, which might be why it's lower.
things that will never happen for 300 pls
Yeah, any fight plan that requires an empty salt pan is on the same level as a plan that requires the enemy to only roll 1s.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I mean, there's way more kitable monsters than a demilich. The classic for this is the first level aarakokra cleric taking down the Tarrasque by spamming Sacred Flame.
And that will never ever work in my game. I thank God that I was around for the 1e version. Same with demilich.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
In 1e about the earliest you could cheese the Tarrasque was level 7 (because no-save fear), but it had the same problem of zero ability to deal with flying opponents. The only edition that actually had a method of dealing with fliers was 4e, though the 3.5e version was durable enough that it could just ignore the buzzing flies of low to mid level characters.
This is why they should have gone full Godzilla with it and given it a breath weapon
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I just put damage thresholds on large monsters, though I do it by turn rather than by attack. i.e.
Legendary Resilience: if the Tarrasque takes less than 20 points of damage in one turn from one character, it ignores that damage.
That won't prevent high level parties from taking it down, but does mean it can't be overwhelmed by chaff.
It would be better as damage reduction. Otherwise If an attacker does 21 then it takes 21. If it were damage reduction then 21 damage would just be 1 =)
And ALSO give it regeneration.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I find it funny that people in one breath would modify a Tarrasque’s ability stat block but in the same thread chastise others for modifying a Demilich.
Let’s agree that the Demilich doesn’t sit around in a field waiting for someone to ambush it. It’s smart.
But let’s also agree that a Tarrasque doesn’t care about adventurers either (or about as much as you care about a mosquito a block away) . It travels up to 140ft per round (with Dash and Legendaries). It reaches and obliterates an undefended village miles away an hour before your party gets there. You arrive just in time to heal a couple people and continue the chase.
By sheer luck your Wizard Dimension Doors himself and a party member to within range of the Tarrasque. The Tarrasque uses Frightful Presence and makes five attacks - two claws, one horn, one tail, and one bite on its turn. The bite hits and the target is frightened, grappled and restrained. The Tarrasque then moves 40 ft for movement, 20ft with Legendary Actions, and Swallows the bitten target with its last Legendary Action. All in one round.
Next round? It’s moving 140ft per round again to the next city, outpacing your entire party to the next town. Except now it has a party member in its belly frightened, blinded, and restrained taking 16d6 acid damage each turn.
So yeah, I don’t see the Aarakocra/Tarrasque scenario any more realistic than the Paladins ambushing a prone Demilich in a field scenario.
do remember cr assumes no magic items period
The demilich is a tricky monster for calculating CR. It has low hit points, but very good resistances and the ability to regain hit points very quickly with Life Drain. But even so it is vulnerable to spells like magic missile, scorching ray and even cantrips like Fire Bolt. I have used them a few times, and they typically get the drop on the party. In my experience they are pretty swingy - I've seem them nearly TPK a party, and I've seen them go down in 2 rounds. The level of the party isn't even a great predictor, as far as I can tell.
I feel this is a problem that many high CR monsters have - particularly monsters from the MM or VGtM. But it's a problem greatly exaggerated by the design of the Demilich.
Beholders are certainly similar. They only have a 30% chance of a damage dealing eye ray, so sometimes you get MAXIMUM FIREPOWER and sometimes you get diddely squat in terms of DPR. given that most combats last 2-3 rounds, a whole round of missed damage opportunities is a huge loss.
One item too that factors into encounter design is that parties are very unlikely to encounter these monsters when they are fresh...usually they are at the end of an adventuring day. A Demilich or any other swingy type monster is a much different fight if you have full health and all abilities, compared to having limited options due to previous encounters
The switch to beholders being purely random in what eye beams they can use never sat right with me.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Given that it's probably using 6 eye rays per turn, the randomness isn't that large. Missing generates lots of randomness too.
I prefer rng over a DM spamming Disintegrate.
An alternative to randomness is making it exclusive so you can only use each eye beam once a turn but even that only leads to a maximum of 7/10 getting use. I think lore wise how it works is that the beholder is covered in eyes and its just which ever one happens to be facing you.
I have run several campaigns, and maybe 30% of them have a paladin, so it is not impossible. You obviously are very invested in the paladin being in every campaign, everyone who is in a campaign without one must now add one. All campaigns have paladins, we all know it, it has been said.
I think using antimagic field and shaking the lair repeatedly as lair actions would negate a lot of this, wouldn't it? if your weapons are mundane now, will the improved divine smite still work?