I should go through my old rulebooks to see if there's any other spells with wildly incompatible mechanics to 5e I can "homebrew" and add to my campaign! Death's Door is still a super-useful 3rd-level cleric spell, right?
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I have clarified the spell to ensure that a detected Improved Invisibility character receives a +4 AC bonus and saves. He/she is not penalized for getting detected.
There are no penalties for "being detected". An invisible character has advantage on attacks and enemies have disadvantage on attacks against the the character for the duration of the spell. Also, a 4-round casting time means that the caster is basically doing nothing for 4 rounds of combat. That by itself makes the homebrew spell bad.
The casting time has actually been changed to 2 minutes and should be done pre-combat. I spell never gave the invisible character any disadvantages it was just worded incorrectly and has now been corrected.
So it is still much worse than Greater Invisibility. 2 minutes to cast is worse that 1 action. 4 rounds is worse than 10 rounds. +4 to AC is worse than Advantage on your attacks and Disadvantage on attack against you. I am not sure about the save bonus, but honestly I don't think it is enough to really help the spell.
Golaryn - I am still fairly new to D&D Beyond and am learning the system. This is only my second attempt to publish a spell and I am learning as I go. A little guidance from a veteran would be a better approach and helpful. I will get this system down and be very good at it but I will offer compassionate guidance to those that ask or seem to need it.
I have edited my newest spell for a version 4 to help meet the feedback I have received thus far and also added in my original spell as well.
If you actually click on the Greater Invisibility spell it is in fact not even as good as (or described) as well as the level 2nd level Invisibility spell. The minus to AC is a 5th edition scenario, example: Target has a normal AC of 14 under Improved Invisibility but gets discovered. His/her Improved Invisibility remains but since he/she has been discovered the opponent attacks at a -4 AC, so giving the target an effective AC of 18.
So let's talk about this and explain it thoroughly.
The text for Invisibility reads:
A creature you touch becomes invisible until the spell ends. Anything the target is wearing or carrying is invisible as long as it is on the target’s person. The spell ends for a target that attacks or casts a spell.
Greater invisibility has the same text, minus the final line about spell ending for a target if they attack or cast spells. While there are inherent differences to the spells, like invisibility having multiple targets at higher levels and a higher duration of 1 hour, which is 600 rounds, vs Greater Invsibility having a duration of 1 minute, aka 10 rounds. Greater Invisibility also has no material component, whereas invisibility does.
What does all of this mean? They're functionally the same spell with the exception that if the fighter attacks you while invisible? They can keep attacking and retain the benefits of invisibility which means they get advantage on all attacks and people attacking you have disadvantage on all attacks.
This makes Greater Invsibility better. Even against your homebrew version. I can cast it instantly, get benefits for longer and maintain my status.
That being said, it's still a direct lift from AD&D 2nd with it's text.
I removed the 2 minutes and replaced it with 1 action
4 rounds is more than enough and it does expand at higher levels
The attacker receives a -4 to his/her attack against the invisible characters AC if detected. Thats a great bonus to the target character or player.
There are tons of spells I don't or won't use in homebrew or even the players handbook either. It's all about preference. I like this spell and will use it in my campaigns.
I removed the 2 minutes and replaced it with 1 action
4 rounds is more than enough and it does expand at higher levels
The attacker receives a -4 to his/her attack against the invisible characters AC if detected. Thats a great bonus to the target character or player.
There are tons of spells I don't or won't use in homebrew or even the players handbook either. It's all about preference. I like this spell and will use it in my campaigns.
The attacker already receives disadvantage in 5th edition, which is an effective -5. Your additional penalty makes this a -9.
Golaryn - I am still fairly new to D&D Beyond and am learning the system. This is only my second attempt to publish a spell and I am learning as I go. A little guidance from a veteran would be a better approach and helpful. I will get this system down and be very good at it but I will offer compassionate guidance to those that ask or seem to need it.
I have edited my newest spell for a version 4 to help meet the feedback I have received thus far and also added in my original spell as well.
Ok, so since you are new, do you know what Advantage/Disadvantage means as a game mechanic? Not trying to be mean, just want to be sure we are on the same page. Secondly, what are you trying to accomplish with this homebrew spell that is not accomplished with Greater Invisibility?
So, while you are undetected in the HB Improved Invisibility, you don't get a bonus to your AC and Saving Throws, but you do if you are detected? Makes no sense to me. Also, why would I get a bonus on all saving throws? How does this Improved Invisibility better my saves against AoE attacks, or against something like a Banshee's Horrifying Visage?
The difference is the target character has been detected so the opponent has a general sense of where they are. I am not sure where the -9 comes in but hopefully my example explains it below.
Example: Improved Invisible character has a normal AC of 14 but gets detected. While the Improved Invisible character remains invisible, he/she still gets the benefit of a +4 AC when being attacked, effectively an AC 18 while still under the spell.
The difference is the target character has been detected so the opponent has a general sense of where they are. I am not sure where the -9 comes in but hopefully my example explains it below.
Example: Improved Invisible character has a normal AC of 14 but gets detected. While the Improved Invisible character remains invisible, he/she still gets the benefit of a +4 AC when being attacked, effectively an AC 18 while still under the spell.
In 5th edition, anything that is considered invisible imposes disadvantage on the dice. Meaning you take two dice, roll, and take the lower result. From a math standpoint, this effectively ends up as a -5 in most cases. 5th edition doesn't really have a "detected" mechanic, so you're adding to that, but you're basically saying that the character once detected can now be hit, but with a -4 penalty to the person making the attack. That -4 combined with the disadvantage provides a theoretical -9.
In 5th edition, invisible characters can still be detected unless they specifically take the Hide action or make active attempts at Stealth. If a person with invisibility is just walking down the city road and not trying to be stealthy? People would know SOMETHING is there, just not what it is.
This is also a change from AD&D 2nd where the text of the invisibility spell says they become undectable. That really isn't the case in 5th.
The difference is the target character has been detected so the opponent has a general sense of where they are. I am not sure where the -9 comes in but hopefully my example explains it below.
Example: Improved Invisible character has a normal AC of 14 but gets detected. While the Improved Invisible character remains invisible, he/she still gets the benefit of a +4 AC when being attacked, effectively an AC 18 while still under the spell.
"Detecting" an invisible creature, whatever you think that means mechanically, does not negate them being invisible. In fact, it's already assumed that attackers will use audio cues, etc. to try and get a bead on them
Invisible
An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage.
Whether they're "detected" or not, attacks against invisible creatures are made at disadvantage, which is generally viewed as being the equivalent of a -5 penalty.
If you're new to 5e, I'd recommend not homebrewing anything until you actually understand the rules.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Can someone link of post the full spell description of Greater Invisibility in here?
I have clicked on the link in this thread and searched for it in the spell list and it explains less than the regular Invisibility spell.
That link is just fine.
The important difference is that Greater Invisibility does not have "The spell ends for a target that attacks or casts a spell." text. That means that you can do everything while remaining invisible and therefore keep all the benefits of Invisibility for the full duration.
So, while you are undetected in the HB Improved Invisibility, you don't get a bonus to your AC and Saving Throws, but you do if you are detected? Makes no sense to me. Also, why would I get a bonus on all saving throws? How does this Improved Invisibility better my saves against AoE attacks, or against something like a Banshee's Horrifying Visage?
To clarify the spell does say that AoE spells are not affected only targeted spells. While undetected no one would attack you or cast targeted spells at you so there is no need for an AC or saving throw. If an AoE spell was cast and you are caught in its AoE as the spell suggested, you would be subject to a saving throw.
Can someone link of post the full spell description of Greater Invisibility in here?
I have clicked on the link in this thread and searched for it in the spell list and it explains less than the regular Invisibility spell.
That link is just fine.
The important difference is that Greater Invisibility does not have "The spell ends for a target that attacks or casts a spell." text. That means that you can do everything while remaining invisible and therefore keep all the benefits of Invisibility for the full duration.
Good point thanks for clarifying. I'm one of those folks that need to be told I can attack and remain invisible it seems.
While undetected no one would attack you or cast targeted spells at you
That is not how 5e works
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The difference is the target character has been detected so the opponent has a general sense of where they are. I am not sure where the -9 comes in but hopefully my example explains it below.
Example: Improved Invisible character has a normal AC of 14 but gets detected. While the Improved Invisible character remains invisible, he/she still gets the benefit of a +4 AC when being attacked, effectively an AC 18 while still under the spell.
Essentially, your homebrew says (or is intended to say) all the regular benefits of invisibility apply while a character is "undetected" (in other words, opponents don't know about the character being there) and are replaced with a different set of benefits once the character is "detected" (opponents still can't see the character, but they know it's there and what it's location is). The problem (well, one of the problems) with this is that the regular benefits of invisibility already take into account what you define as "detected". This is just confusing. The effect of being "undetected" is simply that - the opponents don't know you're there, and anything else is irrelevant. If they don't know you're there, they can't attack you so advantage and disadvantage don't matter. I don't see much reason for your homebrew version unless you feel the official Greater Invisibility is too strong and needs to be toned down (I'd disagree with that, but everyone can do what they want with their own games), but if you do want to homebrew something like this it's best to keep the spell description as straightforward as possible. Also, this is 5E: I still use circumstantial modifiers myself (albeit indirectly, it's really more setting more granular DCs than multiples of 5) but for game mechanics advantage and disadvantage have largely replaced numerical bonuses and penalties. +4/-4 just feels out of place for this edition.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
In some cases, our DM will allow Advantage/Disadvantage to stack and it's generally a 1 to 1 offset, each advantage offsets 1 disadvantage, so if you find a situation to get 2x Advantage, and you get Disadvantage applied by an opponent, you still get to roll 2 Dice for single Advantage. This is situational, if you are blind and attacking an invisible opponent and reckless attacking.... you still get a disadvantage because... well it makes sense that you would be attacking at disadvantage :)
I did not think about just not wreckless attacking when I am invisible though - I would still get to throw 2 dice, and not suffer the penalties of reckless attack ( opponents all get Advantage ).
Hide is an Action, so I could Attack and then Hide ( 2 actions ) if it succeeds, would I be non-detectable or could I still be attacked?
You can have 8 sources of advantage and one disadvantage. They just offset, roll a single die
There is also only one "action" per round, and you only get a bonus action if you qualify for it. Bonus actions can't be upgraded to actions, actions can't be downgraded to bonus actions, etc. The Hide Action would prevent any Attack Actions, unless you are a Fighter who can use Action Surge to gain an additional action(which can only be used to attack once, regardless of how many attacks a class can potentially make).
It didn't even go off track. We are talking about what the Invisible condition does, and how that interacts. It's important discourse.
An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage.
I am saying this with all sincerity, but you do need to read the rules better to understand how 5th works coming from 2e.
Sometimes a special ability or spell tells you that you have advantage or disadvantage on an ability check, a saving throw, or an attack roll. When that happens, you roll a second d20 when you make the roll. Use the higher of the two rolls if you have advantage, and use the lower roll if you have disadvantage. For example, if you have disadvantage and roll a 17 and a 5, you use the 5. If you instead have advantage and roll those numbers, you use the 17.
If multiple situations affect a roll and each one grants advantage or imposes disadvantage on it, you don't roll more than one additional d20. If two favorable situations grant advantage, for example, you still roll only one additional d20.
If circumstances cause a roll to have both advantage and disadvantage, you are considered to have neither of them, and you roll one d20. This is true even if multiple circumstances impose disadvantage and only one grants advantage or vice versa. In such a situation, you have neither advantage nor disadvantage.
When you take your action on your turn, you can take one of the actions presented here, an action you gained from your class or a special feature, or an action that you improvise. Many monsters have action options of their own in their stat blocks.
When you describe an action not detailed elsewhere in the rules, the DM tells you whether that action is possible and what kind of roll you need to make, if any, to determine success or failure.
On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first. Your speed--sometimes called your walking speed--is noted on your character sheet.
So, while you are undetected in the HB Improved Invisibility, you don't get a bonus to your AC and Saving Throws, but you do if you are detected? Makes no sense to me. Also, why would I get a bonus on all saving throws? How does this Improved Invisibility better my saves against AoE attacks, or against something like a Banshee's Horrifying Visage?
To clarify the spell does say that AoE spells are not affected only targeted spells. While undetected no one would attack you or cast targeted spells at you so there is no need for an AC or saving throw. If an AoE spell was cast and you are caught in its AoE as the spell suggested, you would be subject to a saving throw.
Not at all true. I could go invisible and still have someone try to attack me, especially if I did something like cast a spell at them. But this affects +4 all my saving throws.
It is a nice try, but this spell makes no sense at all.
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I should go through my old rulebooks to see if there's any other spells with wildly incompatible mechanics to 5e I can "homebrew" and add to my campaign! Death's Door is still a super-useful 3rd-level cleric spell, right?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
So it is still much worse than Greater Invisibility. 2 minutes to cast is worse that 1 action. 4 rounds is worse than 10 rounds. +4 to AC is worse than Advantage on your attacks and Disadvantage on attack against you. I am not sure about the save bonus, but honestly I don't think it is enough to really help the spell.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Golaryn - I am still fairly new to D&D Beyond and am learning the system. This is only my second attempt to publish a spell and I am learning as I go. A little guidance from a veteran would be a better approach and helpful. I will get this system down and be very good at it but I will offer compassionate guidance to those that ask or seem to need it.
I have edited my newest spell for a version 4 to help meet the feedback I have received thus far and also added in my original spell as well.
Reveal Scoundrel, Improved Invisibility
Thank you all in advance for your feedback.
Fizikal
For the King!
So let's talk about this and explain it thoroughly.
The text for Invisibility reads:
Greater invisibility has the same text, minus the final line about spell ending for a target if they attack or cast spells. While there are inherent differences to the spells, like invisibility having multiple targets at higher levels and a higher duration of 1 hour, which is 600 rounds, vs Greater Invsibility having a duration of 1 minute, aka 10 rounds. Greater Invisibility also has no material component, whereas invisibility does.
What does all of this mean? They're functionally the same spell with the exception that if the fighter attacks you while invisible? They can keep attacking and retain the benefits of invisibility which means they get advantage on all attacks and people attacking you have disadvantage on all attacks.
This makes Greater Invsibility better. Even against your homebrew version. I can cast it instantly, get benefits for longer and maintain my status.
That being said, it's still a direct lift from AD&D 2nd with it's text.
There are tons of spells I don't or won't use in homebrew or even the players handbook either. It's all about preference. I like this spell and will use it in my campaigns.
Fizikal
For the King!
The attacker already receives disadvantage in 5th edition, which is an effective -5. Your additional penalty makes this a -9.
Ok, so since you are new, do you know what Advantage/Disadvantage means as a game mechanic? Not trying to be mean, just want to be sure we are on the same page. Secondly, what are you trying to accomplish with this homebrew spell that is not accomplished with Greater Invisibility?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
So, while you are undetected in the HB Improved Invisibility, you don't get a bonus to your AC and Saving Throws, but you do if you are detected? Makes no sense to me. Also, why would I get a bonus on all saving throws? How does this Improved Invisibility better my saves against AoE attacks, or against something like a Banshee's Horrifying Visage?
The difference is the target character has been detected so the opponent has a general sense of where they are. I am not sure where the -9 comes in but hopefully my example explains it below.
Example: Improved Invisible character has a normal AC of 14 but gets detected. While the Improved Invisible character remains invisible, he/she still gets the benefit of a +4 AC when being attacked, effectively an AC 18 while still under the spell.
Fizikal
For the King!
Can someone link of post the full spell description of Greater Invisibility in here?
I have clicked on the link in this thread and searched for it in the spell list and it explains less than the regular Invisibility spell.
Fizikal
For the King!
In 5th edition, anything that is considered invisible imposes disadvantage on the dice. Meaning you take two dice, roll, and take the lower result. From a math standpoint, this effectively ends up as a -5 in most cases. 5th edition doesn't really have a "detected" mechanic, so you're adding to that, but you're basically saying that the character once detected can now be hit, but with a -4 penalty to the person making the attack. That -4 combined with the disadvantage provides a theoretical -9.
In 5th edition, invisible characters can still be detected unless they specifically take the Hide action or make active attempts at Stealth. If a person with invisibility is just walking down the city road and not trying to be stealthy? People would know SOMETHING is there, just not what it is.
This is also a change from AD&D 2nd where the text of the invisibility spell says they become undectable. That really isn't the case in 5th.
"Detecting" an invisible creature, whatever you think that means mechanically, does not negate them being invisible. In fact, it's already assumed that attackers will use audio cues, etc. to try and get a bead on them
Whether they're "detected" or not, attacks against invisible creatures are made at disadvantage, which is generally viewed as being the equivalent of a -5 penalty.
If you're new to 5e, I'd recommend not homebrewing anything until you actually understand the rules.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
That link is just fine.
The important difference is that Greater Invisibility does not have "The spell ends for a target that attacks or casts a spell." text. That means that you can do everything while remaining invisible and therefore keep all the benefits of Invisibility for the full duration.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
To clarify the spell does say that AoE spells are not affected only targeted spells. While undetected no one would attack you or cast targeted spells at you so there is no need for an AC or saving throw. If an AoE spell was cast and you are caught in its AoE as the spell suggested, you would be subject to a saving throw.
Fizikal
For the King!
Good point thanks for clarifying. I'm one of those folks that need to be told I can attack and remain invisible it seems.
Fizikal
For the King!
That is not how 5e works
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Essentially, your homebrew says (or is intended to say) all the regular benefits of invisibility apply while a character is "undetected" (in other words, opponents don't know about the character being there) and are replaced with a different set of benefits once the character is "detected" (opponents still can't see the character, but they know it's there and what it's location is). The problem (well, one of the problems) with this is that the regular benefits of invisibility already take into account what you define as "detected". This is just confusing. The effect of being "undetected" is simply that - the opponents don't know you're there, and anything else is irrelevant. If they don't know you're there, they can't attack you so advantage and disadvantage don't matter. I don't see much reason for your homebrew version unless you feel the official Greater Invisibility is too strong and needs to be toned down (I'd disagree with that, but everyone can do what they want with their own games), but if you do want to homebrew something like this it's best to keep the spell description as straightforward as possible. Also, this is 5E: I still use circumstantial modifiers myself (albeit indirectly, it's really more setting more granular DCs than multiples of 5) but for game mechanics advantage and disadvantage have largely replaced numerical bonuses and penalties. +4/-4 just feels out of place for this edition.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Wow this went way off track....
As far as Advantage/Disadvantage -
In some cases, our DM will allow Advantage/Disadvantage to stack and it's generally a 1 to 1 offset, each advantage offsets 1 disadvantage, so if you find a situation to get 2x Advantage, and you get Disadvantage applied by an opponent, you still get to roll 2 Dice for single Advantage. This is situational, if you are blind and attacking an invisible opponent and reckless attacking.... you still get a disadvantage because... well it makes sense that you would be attacking at disadvantage :)
I did not think about just not wreckless attacking when I am invisible though - I would still get to throw 2 dice, and not suffer the penalties of reckless attack ( opponents all get Advantage ).
Hide is an Action, so I could Attack and then Hide ( 2 actions ) if it succeeds, would I be non-detectable or could I still be attacked?
It's not a 1 to 1 offset in 5e.
You can have 8 sources of advantage and one disadvantage. They just offset, roll a single die
There is also only one "action" per round, and you only get a bonus action if you qualify for it. Bonus actions can't be upgraded to actions, actions can't be downgraded to bonus actions, etc. The Hide Action would prevent any Attack Actions, unless you are a Fighter who can use Action Surge to gain an additional action(which can only be used to attack once, regardless of how many attacks a class can potentially make).
It didn't even go off track. We are talking about what the Invisible condition does, and how that interacts. It's important discourse.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/appendix-a-conditions#Invisible
I am saying this with all sincerity, but you do need to read the rules better to understand how 5th works coming from 2e.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#AdvantageandDisadvantage
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/combat#ActionsinCombat
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/combat#YourTurn
Not at all true. I could go invisible and still have someone try to attack me, especially if I did something like cast a spell at them. But this affects +4 all my saving throws.
It is a nice try, but this spell makes no sense at all.