I would like some input as to whether I am way off base in asking my players to chip in for 5e materials that I will hold on to.
Me: I am a GM with almost 4 decades of experience in various tabletop RPGs & have probably played in >100 campaigns with >1000 players/DMs in my life. I am an actor & do voices & act. I was a professional GM for a while. More importantly my players return for the weekly 4-hour sessions. 5e isn't my favorite & not something that I have the money or desire to buy but the players love it.
The circumstances: I provide the venue which is not free ($100 is deducted from my inheritance per month) which is large, well-lit, plenty of table/chairs, fans, fridge/freezer, ice/filtered ice water dispenser, sink, electric grill, free parking, etc. I even set up all the tables/chairs for each session. I volunteer for nonprofits full-time & receive snacks which I provide the group (recently expired snickers, skittles, nutrigrain, chips ahoy, nature's valley, clif bars, sun chips, vegan chips, etc as well as "fresh" foods like oranges, fresh pineapple, chocolate cake, ice cream, etc). I provide community dice, miniatures, books/pdfs, etc until the players get their own. My friend, who is not playing, is generously providing our DnDbeyond account for character creation, etc for an indeterminate time. This is of course on top of my regular duties as DM such as merging published & homebrew campaigns. I pay for my own copies & printouts. The players only know each other through the game.
The problem: I am hoping that eventually we can have our own dndbeyond account at least with the rules bundle (<$400) as well as a hardcopy version of the expansion rules (~$100). Otherwise, when my friend withdraws his support, we will have issues or he wants to join the game, we may have to kick a player out.
The ask: I had thought that naturally, players would feel like they should give back perhaps by offering to chip in or buy me something for Christmas but aside from one specific person getting me the core set (I gave her brand new cookware), the rest donated $0 collectively (I gave them gifts). Naturally some folks got busy and new players came in where I continued voluntary donations. I didn't want to prevent a very poor player from playing but did believe that those who had the means should contribute. That never happened...in fact, over the course of more than 7 months from an average of 4 players a week we have received <$30 for donations almost all coming in the last 6 weeks when I started being more vocal. Some of the past players have earned >$200k or live in $1.3Million houses. Occasionally a player would bring a snack that they would usually eat themselves.
It doesn't help that some come late or cancel within an hour of the session or don't know their own characters abilities or don't send me their backstories.
Polling: In speaking with former players/GMs I have had, they agree with me that it is absurd. They say the players should at least buy me "a cup of coffee" ($5), cost of a movie ($12), a $1/hr "tip" ($4/session), etc. If we get even an average of $2/player/4hr session we could easily afford both the dndbeyond bundle as well as the expansion rule set by the end of the year. So far the average has been 20cents/player/4hr session. That's 5cents a player per hour while they are eating the cookies, cake & ice cream. I am "paying" $20/session for the pleasure to play with these people I hardly know.
The question: Am I crazy? Am I being unreasonable? I have never had to explain to players why they should feel grateful to a GM & have never treated any of my GMs this way. I could understand if I was a new GM or if we switched roles but not only am I the GM but I am providing everything! It is very frustrating. Should I make the payment mandatory excluding proof that you are poor? What should I do? Please LMK what you folks think. Thanks for your input.
Personally, I do not ever expect my players to drop in money or stuff for my game play. I run 2-3 games a week for the past few years. My DMing is NOT a service I provide - it is my way of participating in a game that I love. I have bought things as they will enhance my enjoyment of the game. I also enjoy hosting my friends (I see my co-players as friends) so will gladly lay out food or such to enable these social interactions.
Have I had people contribute? Yes. I have had a person give me a gift card to Herosforge so I could print some minis and another who provided probably about $100+ worth of adventures I have never run (we have been friends for about 20 years so this was a generous gift between close friends). I have had a couple drop in 20 bucks to buy pizza for the crew a few times.
But again, this is just me. Some people see this as a service they provide and I say - more power to you if you can receive some recompense for what you do.
@Grebeir - Thanks for your reply. I think you may be more financially fit than I. It also sounds like you have already all the materials you need & have invested into the game that you love & would buy anyway.
But I suspect that your players, if they are actually friends of yours, will bring snacks/food themselves. If you give them gifts, they will give you gifts. Also, I suspect you don't shell out extra money for the venue. And it sounds like you enjoy GMing more than I, I prefer to play than GM...less hassle.
It depends on your group's dynamics. My thoughts would be:
When it comes to the basics, the DM's contributions are the effort and time they put in to prepare the sessions., organise things, and so forth. Therefore the players pay for the expenses etc. But that's just the basics - if we decide that rather than coming around my house and doing it at my dining room table, we're going to hire a hall, then the DM is not excused from that. If, rather than basic doritos and dip, we're getting Papa John's, then the DM contributes, etc. As a player, I'd contribute to buying the DM the campaign book. I wouldn't contribute to the PHB, but I'd expect players to generally have their own copy anyway. That kind of thought process. Obviously, if anotherplayer is poor, I'll contribute more to help out, but that's the general idea.
As a DM, I expect nothing. Yeah, it would be nice if I got a nice shiny copy of Ghosts of Saltmarsh, but I'm not expecting it.
There would be no expectation on anyone to pay above the minimum. $100 per month for the venue? Ouch. D&D can be expensive as it is, and should be about the game. Just meet in your dining room, or rotate it around.
For a party of say four, in an ideal world I'd probably like around $10-15 each throughout the campaign, depending on if I'm expecting to supply them customised minis for the table. Most of that is for the campaign book. I won't insist though, and if they're struggling there won't be any mention of it. They get a painted mini for the $15. If they contribute other stuff, that's great. It's an appreciated bonus, though. If they supply those things, then I expect nothing.
It seems that you are supplying these things with an expectation of reciprocation. Personally, it's all about the game. I've not received a penny for what I've done, and I'm ok with that. I didn't start if for that reason, so whatever. I've just not sustained the snack level. We just play D&D.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
In general - totally reasonable to say "I'm not doing it for free," totally reasonable for players to say no and not play.
In particular - gods above, this situation sucks. I can't stand implicit transactions. The idea that someone is owed something that no one actually agreed on. The idea that people will just naturally "get" that they're supposed to provide recompense, and how much, and in what way. The use of gifts to settle implied debts. Hate it.
It's always hard getting people to start paying for something they've been getting for free. As well as the fear of breaking up the friend group or at least becoming the bad guy. I don't envy your position. I likely wouldn't have done any better, about being adequately clear about my needs. But anyway, I would recommend cancelling all perceived debts and starting a new, explicit, paradigm. And don't hold ransom an ongoing story if you can avoid it. Perhaps you can wrap up the narrative in a game system you prefer running recreationally?
@Linklite Thanks for your reply. We all live in separate regions, so the venue is the most convenient & my mom is a hoarder so we couldn't possibly have someone at our place. And the players haven't offered up their homes & I would have to bus it with all the materials.
When you say Doritos & a dip...are you supplying those or the players? When you say "pay above the minimum", what do you mean? These players are paying nothing & certainly did not pay for the campaign book or anything else like the "expenses". When you say $10-15 each throughout the campaign, do you mean for the entire campaign or for each session during the campaign...how long do your campaigns last? My characters took 4 hours to walk down one flight of stairs!
I think reciprocation would be nice but I am literally paying $20 for the pleasure to play with them every week! Coming close to breaking even would be nice.
@ChoirOfFire Thanks for your input. I have been saying that donations are appreciated but you are right. I think that it is best to just start from scratch & say that I will charge. I am pretty sure that most will quit as you alluded to with your comment "It's always hard getting people to start paying for something they've been getting for free." It doesn't seem like many have interest in playing a game system that I prefer recreationally.
Paying to play was more common PRE-COVID. Then it was harder to find an online group.
But post covid a ton of people started playing online and it was easier to find a group. My offline game moved on-line and has not returned to in person play, mainly because one person moved away and still plays, and we replaced one player with someone from out of state. So now 1/3 of us cannot play in person.
With online groups so easy to find, it is harder to convince people to pay up - whether for online or offline gaming.
That said, you are going all out and should be paid for your effort.
It might be easier to do if you also order pizza. You can do something along the lines of saying, if you can afford it, pay $10 now, and I will order pizza and a can of soda for everyone that pays $10. Four people paying $40, while the Pizza and soda should cost more like half that.
In particular - gods above, this situation sucks. I can't stand implicit transactions. The idea that someone is owed something that no one actually agreed on. The idea that people will just naturally "get" that they're supposed to provide recompense, and how much, and in what way. The use of gifts to settle implied debts. Hate it.
This. A thousand times this. Other GMs you talked to think this is absurd and the players should at least do this or that? Honestly, that's a bit silly. Sure, your players have gotten a sweet deal out of this. Sure, they could make up for that a bit more. But should, when there's no agreement? That's, at least in my experience, not how things go in practice. Not always, anyway. I can totally understand if you feel like you're being taken advantage of a little, I do, but this isn't something where you can expect the penny to drop on its own.
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@Mog_Dracov Thanks for your input. I suppose you are right. We have been meeting for more than 7 months now in person & it is in a nice large, aerated place. The gamestore where we had our first meeting was very cramped & uncomfortable so we went to this venue & have had no complaints.
I do feel very underappreciated because I also feel that I am "going all out". I have never had a GM do anything remote to what I have done for my players. Not sure I should be paid (although I have been in the past), but I certainly don't think I should be paying $20/session to play with them. At the very least they should be allowing me to break even.
Your pizza idea is a good one although with these penny pinchers, I suspect that they may calculate the difference and just ask to split the cost of the pizza. Plus there is a vegan & another is on a diet & another eats before they come. They still eat up all the snacks however. Thanks again for the constructive feedback.
@pangurjan Thanks. I suppose I grew up in a time & culture where you don't need to be overt. You go over to someone's house for dinner & you bring something. Someone does a favor for you & you don't just verbally thank them. You show appreciation through action at least or perhaps a gift. You get a ride for a day trip & you offer to chip in for gas or pay the toll.
Apparently, others have not had that upbringing. Common courtesy is not so common. You folks are right, I will be explicit & tell them that it is not a donation & mandatory.
I never heard anyone just suggest talking to your players about your costs and that you can't afford to run the game at the costs you're paying individually.
If I were in your circumstances and I've been in similar the conversation might start:
1. Hosting where I am costs me $100/month and I can't host elsewhere. I also can't easily travel to one of your places since I'm limited to the bus.
I've been in similar situations and I get it's a little embarrassing but you are looking at your situation transactionally instead of people who share a hobby and are trying to find a way to continue. Currently (precovid and online) i run two games on Fridays on alternate weekends. One game has one host the other game another. The host usually provides dinner) they volunteered because they like doing it. Others regularly bring things. I've brought stuff bought newer or financially strapped players dice sets. I went through a period when I didn't have a car on Friday so two players that I was conveniently between the hosted areas took turns picking me up.
Explain the problems see what solutions you as a group can find. There are dms that can charge for their service I've personally never had the desire to do that after game mastering for approaching 40 years with a few breaks here and there.
So, Paid DMing can be a contentious thing on this board, so while I think most of the responses have been civil, be prepared for a screed 'NEVAR EVAR' bombardment.
That said, to me it doesn't look like you're trying to profit off this particular game (and you seem to consider it different from past professional GM work) so much as not having to front all the overhead. I think if you consider proposing moving this group to a "club" structure. Maybe even have someone who isn't the DM be the treasurer, and another officer can do scheduling etc., you may find giving up a little managerial control highly beneficial.
Understanding that "dues" go to cover the venue, snacks (when the nonprofit surplus pantry dries up or people want a taste of something else ... you could even have a 'catering officer' who's responsible for that end of things) shouldn't be all that problematic, especially if a budget or projected expenses and a reflection on expenses you've personally incurred to date is furnished. The main issue would be the D&D Beyond stuff and/or the club's physical "game library." It could be something like "charter members" need to buy into that, but I'm not quite sure what should be done if a particular member decides to dissolve their association. Maybe what they put in could be spread among new members and the money returned to a charter member. This is likely "down the line" but would be something that should be in place in club bylaws so things don't go bad blood or even small claims.
It may sound like a headache, but what I'm outlining would take a lot of the responsibility, both logistical and financial and spread the burden over your de facto club's membership. Some folks, especially those who've never GM'd don't understand the financial and mental energy overhead costs of a well run game. Talking about money is traditionally difficult in the U.S. but I think folks are willing to be more honest and give more honest listens in the present moment with the economy being as "uneven" as it is.
I don't have a club charter on hand, as my main games are largely "friends and family" type games where all I'd ask for is maybe food and drink; but if I were to sustain some sort of association with a group solely for the purpose of gaming, the club model I think is a really viable one.
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@Linklite Thanks for your reply. We all live in separate regions, so the venue is the most convenient & my mom is a hoarder so we couldn't possibly have someone at our place. And the players haven't offered up their homes & I would have to bus it with all the materials.
When you say Doritos & a dip...are you supplying those or the players? When you say "pay above the minimum", what do you mean? These players are paying nothing & certainly did not pay for the campaign book or anything else like the "expenses". When you say $10-15 each throughout the campaign, do you mean for the entire campaign or for each session during the campaign...how long do your campaigns last? My characters took 4 hours to walk down one flight of stairs!
I think reciprocation would be nice but I am literally paying $20 for the pleasure to play with them every week! Coming close to breaking even would be nice.
The costs I'd mentioned aren't profit. It's what the costs of the campaign would be, divided among players. A book is $40, so they pay $10 each. You get 5 STLs from HeroForge for $20, so they pay $5 for a mini, which I'll print and paint for them...if they want. I'm still down, just not as much as otherwise. That's for the entire adventure, which lasts as long as it lasts. If it's Waterdeep: Dragon Heist, that's going to be a lot shorter than Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage. If it's a homebrew...then I don't charge for the adventure. It's just about sharing costs, not about being paid. As for snacks...usually everyone brings enough for themselves and the DM. I might add to the pile...depends on time. I just feel less of a commitment to do so as DM. As player, I WILL buy or make some, as DM...it just depends. If players are generous, I will be too. If they're not bothered...I'm not going to be either.
An important thing is to mention costs at the beginning, and not just expect it. I'll broach the topic of HeroForge at the beginning and see they want it, not just do it and then wonder where my money is. Or if I do do it without asking, then it'll be a gift. They need to know what they're getting into first. I'm currently running a campaign with my Brother-in-law, and I've not had any money from him. And that's cool, I've not asked. I do wish he'd be a bit more...committed, but I'm not expecting to be paid. We've supplied some snacks (cheap pizzas once, a box of chocolates another time, stuff like that). If you want financial help, you need to ask, and in advance. If you're paying $100 for the venue, then it's reasonable to ask for help...but you're not going to get that just from them turning up. Mention that it's that much, and see what they say. It might be that there is somewhere else that is cheaper, or it's not worth it to them. You're not going to get it otherwise though.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
@MidnightPlat Thank you very much for your well-reasoned response. I do have someone who is collecting the donations but she makes no effort because she says she has never had a GM ask for money before (the 2 DMs she had). She also admits she has never had a GM pay for the venue, bring the snacks, etc & also says that the players would chip in for pizza which the GM would partake in. So it seems strange they don't understand as you do that all I want to do is "not have to pay for all the overhead".
I will take your approach & preface it as a club. You are right that in the end, the part they probably have the most issue is that I would be the one who holds the dndbeyond account & books. This is why I really went out of my way to pay for the venue & provide the snacks. Thanks again.
Paying to play was more common PRE-COVID. Then it was harder to find an online group.
But post covid a ton of people started playing online and it was easier to find a group. My offline game moved on-line and has not returned to in person play, mainly because one person moved away and still plays, and we replaced one player with someone from out of state. So now 1/3 of us cannot play in person.
With online groups so easy to find, it is harder to convince people to pay up - whether for online or offline gaming.
That said, you are going all out and should be paid for your effort.
It might be easier to do if you also order pizza. You can do something along the lines of saying, if you can afford it, pay $10 now, and I will order pizza and a can of soda for everyone that pays $10. Four people paying $40, while the Pizza and soda should cost more like half that.
Odd... My IRL Pay To Play schedule has increased post covid. Both the number of campaigns I DM and players per session have doubled. I may be an outlier though. Do you have data to back your claim or as like me just personal observations? (I am genuinely curious as any data helps with my negotiations on operating costs/fee scheduling.)
@Damian_Magecraft I also feel like it should be more given covid. The venue I have is spacious & well aerated plus doesn't require masks or vaccines.
@LinkLite They are not sharing ANY costs. I have sent an email to the players telling them that the $5/session is mandatory. I am sure most if not all of them will drop out. Which is fine...I can't keep sustaining this by myself. All D&D materials including the campaign materials I have paid for myself. Some players do bring snacks, pretty much for themselves. Only once or twice have they even offered me. And yes, it does hurt that they don't send me their backstories, tell me in advance that they won't show up so I can plan, show up late, etc. That adds insult to injury. Honestly if the group was really, really engaged & helping my GMing, I may even think paying $20/session to play with them may be worth it. But its far from that unfortunately. Honestly, my players from my professional GM days were less demanding & more enthusiastic.
Are the players aware of the situation with the subscription, such that at any point you could lose asccess to mosst of the D&D materials? (I I wouldn't expect a friend who isn't playing to renew their subscription just so you can use it.
You have tried suggesting and have recieved little in return. I would work the total cost per year to play, th cost fo books, snacks, maps, the venue if you would not need to pay it if the game stopped and so on,. Decide how much of that (if any) you are willing to contribute (the answer could be all or it could be negative if you want to be paid for your time but your post implies neither is the case, either zero or an equal amount to the players seems reasonable) and then tell them that if they do not pay the remaining amount between them (not necessarily all at once) them you will cease to DM.
We can lose the access at any time & we don't even have the hardcover books so we would have to rely on pdfs from the web ouch! I come from the pen & paper days but those folks are constantly using the dndbeyond. My friend is not even a close friend & a former player who has been extremely generous & they don't appreciate that. They just seem so unappreciative not just in covering costs but the game itself. They show up, have a good time, & seem to enjoy but aside from those 4 hours, they don't text me about their characters, don't seem to know their own abilities, etc. Most of them are from the video game era & so may not be as invested.
The amount I would be willing to pay is complicated because I have already put in $750 for those 7.5 months that they (collectively, players have come & gone) paid nothing.
How much have you actually discussed your financial situation with the players? Or asked them to contribute anything before you decided to charge for your sessions? Because if you haven't told your players that it's costing you $100 a month for the gaming venue they're probably assuming that it's something you're getting free.
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I would like some input as to whether I am way off base in asking my players to chip in for 5e materials that I will hold on to.
Me: I am a GM with almost 4 decades of experience in various tabletop RPGs & have probably played in >100 campaigns with >1000 players/DMs in my life. I am an actor & do voices & act. I was a professional GM for a while. More importantly my players return for the weekly 4-hour sessions. 5e isn't my favorite & not something that I have the money or desire to buy but the players love it.
The circumstances: I provide the venue which is not free ($100 is deducted from my inheritance per month) which is large, well-lit, plenty of table/chairs, fans, fridge/freezer, ice/filtered ice water dispenser, sink, electric grill, free parking, etc. I even set up all the tables/chairs for each session. I volunteer for nonprofits full-time & receive snacks which I provide the group (recently expired snickers, skittles, nutrigrain, chips ahoy, nature's valley, clif bars, sun chips, vegan chips, etc as well as "fresh" foods like oranges, fresh pineapple, chocolate cake, ice cream, etc). I provide community dice, miniatures, books/pdfs, etc until the players get their own. My friend, who is not playing, is generously providing our DnDbeyond account for character creation, etc for an indeterminate time. This is of course on top of my regular duties as DM such as merging published & homebrew campaigns. I pay for my own copies & printouts. The players only know each other through the game.
The problem: I am hoping that eventually we can have our own dndbeyond account at least with the rules bundle (<$400) as well as a hardcopy version of the expansion rules (~$100). Otherwise, when my friend withdraws his support, we will have issues or he wants to join the game, we may have to kick a player out.
The ask: I had thought that naturally, players would feel like they should give back perhaps by offering to chip in or buy me something for Christmas but aside from one specific person getting me the core set (I gave her brand new cookware), the rest donated $0 collectively (I gave them gifts). Naturally some folks got busy and new players came in where I continued voluntary donations. I didn't want to prevent a very poor player from playing but did believe that those who had the means should contribute. That never happened...in fact, over the course of more than 7 months from an average of 4 players a week we have received <$30 for donations almost all coming in the last 6 weeks when I started being more vocal. Some of the past players have earned >$200k or live in $1.3Million houses. Occasionally a player would bring a snack that they would usually eat themselves.
It doesn't help that some come late or cancel within an hour of the session or don't know their own characters abilities or don't send me their backstories.
Polling: In speaking with former players/GMs I have had, they agree with me that it is absurd. They say the players should at least buy me "a cup of coffee" ($5), cost of a movie ($12), a $1/hr "tip" ($4/session), etc. If we get even an average of $2/player/4hr session we could easily afford both the dndbeyond bundle as well as the expansion rule set by the end of the year. So far the average has been 20cents/player/4hr session. That's 5cents a player per hour while they are eating the cookies, cake & ice cream. I am "paying" $20/session for the pleasure to play with these people I hardly know.
The question: Am I crazy? Am I being unreasonable? I have never had to explain to players why they should feel grateful to a GM & have never treated any of my GMs this way. I could understand if I was a new GM or if we switched roles but not only am I the GM but I am providing everything! It is very frustrating. Should I make the payment mandatory excluding proof that you are poor? What should I do? Please LMK what you folks think. Thanks for your input.
Personally, I do not ever expect my players to drop in money or stuff for my game play. I run 2-3 games a week for the past few years. My DMing is NOT a service I provide - it is my way of participating in a game that I love. I have bought things as they will enhance my enjoyment of the game. I also enjoy hosting my friends (I see my co-players as friends) so will gladly lay out food or such to enable these social interactions.
Have I had people contribute? Yes. I have had a person give me a gift card to Herosforge so I could print some minis and another who provided probably about $100+ worth of adventures I have never run (we have been friends for about 20 years so this was a generous gift between close friends). I have had a couple drop in 20 bucks to buy pizza for the crew a few times.
But again, this is just me. Some people see this as a service they provide and I say - more power to you if you can receive some recompense for what you do.
@Grebeir - Thanks for your reply. I think you may be more financially fit than I. It also sounds like you have already all the materials you need & have invested into the game that you love & would buy anyway.
But I suspect that your players, if they are actually friends of yours, will bring snacks/food themselves. If you give them gifts, they will give you gifts. Also, I suspect you don't shell out extra money for the venue. And it sounds like you enjoy GMing more than I, I prefer to play than GM...less hassle.
It depends on your group's dynamics. My thoughts would be:
It seems that you are supplying these things with an expectation of reciprocation. Personally, it's all about the game. I've not received a penny for what I've done, and I'm ok with that. I didn't start if for that reason, so whatever. I've just not sustained the snack level. We just play D&D.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
In general - totally reasonable to say "I'm not doing it for free," totally reasonable for players to say no and not play.
In particular - gods above, this situation sucks. I can't stand implicit transactions. The idea that someone is owed something that no one actually agreed on. The idea that people will just naturally "get" that they're supposed to provide recompense, and how much, and in what way. The use of gifts to settle implied debts. Hate it.
It's always hard getting people to start paying for something they've been getting for free. As well as the fear of breaking up the friend group or at least becoming the bad guy. I don't envy your position. I likely wouldn't have done any better, about being adequately clear about my needs. But anyway, I would recommend cancelling all perceived debts and starting a new, explicit, paradigm. And don't hold ransom an ongoing story if you can avoid it. Perhaps you can wrap up the narrative in a game system you prefer running recreationally?
@Linklite Thanks for your reply. We all live in separate regions, so the venue is the most convenient & my mom is a hoarder so we couldn't possibly have someone at our place. And the players haven't offered up their homes & I would have to bus it with all the materials.
When you say Doritos & a dip...are you supplying those or the players? When you say "pay above the minimum", what do you mean? These players are paying nothing & certainly did not pay for the campaign book or anything else like the "expenses". When you say $10-15 each throughout the campaign, do you mean for the entire campaign or for each session during the campaign...how long do your campaigns last? My characters took 4 hours to walk down one flight of stairs!
I think reciprocation would be nice but I am literally paying $20 for the pleasure to play with them every week! Coming close to breaking even would be nice.
@ChoirOfFire Thanks for your input. I have been saying that donations are appreciated but you are right. I think that it is best to just start from scratch & say that I will charge. I am pretty sure that most will quit as you alluded to with your comment "It's always hard getting people to start paying for something they've been getting for free." It doesn't seem like many have interest in playing a game system that I prefer recreationally.
Paying to play was more common PRE-COVID. Then it was harder to find an online group.
But post covid a ton of people started playing online and it was easier to find a group. My offline game moved on-line and has not returned to in person play, mainly because one person moved away and still plays, and we replaced one player with someone from out of state. So now 1/3 of us cannot play in person.
With online groups so easy to find, it is harder to convince people to pay up - whether for online or offline gaming.
That said, you are going all out and should be paid for your effort.
It might be easier to do if you also order pizza. You can do something along the lines of saying, if you can afford it, pay $10 now, and I will order pizza and a can of soda for everyone that pays $10. Four people paying $40, while the Pizza and soda should cost more like half that.
This. A thousand times this. Other GMs you talked to think this is absurd and the players should at least do this or that? Honestly, that's a bit silly. Sure, your players have gotten a sweet deal out of this. Sure, they could make up for that a bit more. But should, when there's no agreement? That's, at least in my experience, not how things go in practice. Not always, anyway. I can totally understand if you feel like you're being taken advantage of a little, I do, but this isn't something where you can expect the penny to drop on its own.
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@Mog_Dracov Thanks for your input. I suppose you are right. We have been meeting for more than 7 months now in person & it is in a nice large, aerated place. The gamestore where we had our first meeting was very cramped & uncomfortable so we went to this venue & have had no complaints.
I do feel very underappreciated because I also feel that I am "going all out". I have never had a GM do anything remote to what I have done for my players. Not sure I should be paid (although I have been in the past), but I certainly don't think I should be paying $20/session to play with them. At the very least they should be allowing me to break even.
Your pizza idea is a good one although with these penny pinchers, I suspect that they may calculate the difference and just ask to split the cost of the pizza. Plus there is a vegan & another is on a diet & another eats before they come. They still eat up all the snacks however. Thanks again for the constructive feedback.
@pangurjan Thanks. I suppose I grew up in a time & culture where you don't need to be overt. You go over to someone's house for dinner & you bring something. Someone does a favor for you & you don't just verbally thank them. You show appreciation through action at least or perhaps a gift. You get a ride for a day trip & you offer to chip in for gas or pay the toll.
Apparently, others have not had that upbringing. Common courtesy is not so common. You folks are right, I will be explicit & tell them that it is not a donation & mandatory.
I never heard anyone just suggest talking to your players about your costs and that you can't afford to run the game at the costs you're paying individually.
If I were in your circumstances and I've been in similar the conversation might start:
1. Hosting where I am costs me $100/month and I can't host elsewhere. I also can't easily travel to one of your places since I'm limited to the bus.
I've been in similar situations and I get it's a little embarrassing but you are looking at your situation transactionally instead of people who share a hobby and are trying to find a way to continue. Currently (precovid and online) i run two games on Fridays on alternate weekends. One game has one host the other game another. The host usually provides dinner) they volunteered because they like doing it. Others regularly bring things. I've brought stuff bought newer or financially strapped players dice sets. I went through a period when I didn't have a car on Friday so two players that I was conveniently between the hosted areas took turns picking me up.
Explain the problems see what solutions you as a group can find. There are dms that can charge for their service I've personally never had the desire to do that after game mastering for approaching 40 years with a few breaks here and there.
So, Paid DMing can be a contentious thing on this board, so while I think most of the responses have been civil, be prepared for a screed 'NEVAR EVAR' bombardment.
That said, to me it doesn't look like you're trying to profit off this particular game (and you seem to consider it different from past professional GM work) so much as not having to front all the overhead. I think if you consider proposing moving this group to a "club" structure. Maybe even have someone who isn't the DM be the treasurer, and another officer can do scheduling etc., you may find giving up a little managerial control highly beneficial.
Understanding that "dues" go to cover the venue, snacks (when the nonprofit surplus pantry dries up or people want a taste of something else ... you could even have a 'catering officer' who's responsible for that end of things) shouldn't be all that problematic, especially if a budget or projected expenses and a reflection on expenses you've personally incurred to date is furnished. The main issue would be the D&D Beyond stuff and/or the club's physical "game library." It could be something like "charter members" need to buy into that, but I'm not quite sure what should be done if a particular member decides to dissolve their association. Maybe what they put in could be spread among new members and the money returned to a charter member. This is likely "down the line" but would be something that should be in place in club bylaws so things don't go bad blood or even small claims.
It may sound like a headache, but what I'm outlining would take a lot of the responsibility, both logistical and financial and spread the burden over your de facto club's membership. Some folks, especially those who've never GM'd don't understand the financial and mental energy overhead costs of a well run game. Talking about money is traditionally difficult in the U.S. but I think folks are willing to be more honest and give more honest listens in the present moment with the economy being as "uneven" as it is.
I don't have a club charter on hand, as my main games are largely "friends and family" type games where all I'd ask for is maybe food and drink; but if I were to sustain some sort of association with a group solely for the purpose of gaming, the club model I think is a really viable one.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The costs I'd mentioned aren't profit. It's what the costs of the campaign would be, divided among players. A book is $40, so they pay $10 each. You get 5 STLs from HeroForge for $20, so they pay $5 for a mini, which I'll print and paint for them...if they want. I'm still down, just not as much as otherwise. That's for the entire adventure, which lasts as long as it lasts. If it's Waterdeep: Dragon Heist, that's going to be a lot shorter than Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage. If it's a homebrew...then I don't charge for the adventure. It's just about sharing costs, not about being paid. As for snacks...usually everyone brings enough for themselves and the DM. I might add to the pile...depends on time. I just feel less of a commitment to do so as DM. As player, I WILL buy or make some, as DM...it just depends. If players are generous, I will be too. If they're not bothered...I'm not going to be either.
An important thing is to mention costs at the beginning, and not just expect it. I'll broach the topic of HeroForge at the beginning and see they want it, not just do it and then wonder where my money is. Or if I do do it without asking, then it'll be a gift. They need to know what they're getting into first. I'm currently running a campaign with my Brother-in-law, and I've not had any money from him. And that's cool, I've not asked. I do wish he'd be a bit more...committed, but I'm not expecting to be paid. We've supplied some snacks (cheap pizzas once, a box of chocolates another time, stuff like that). If you want financial help, you need to ask, and in advance. If you're paying $100 for the venue, then it's reasonable to ask for help...but you're not going to get that just from them turning up. Mention that it's that much, and see what they say. It might be that there is somewhere else that is cheaper, or it's not worth it to them. You're not going to get it otherwise though.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
@MidnightPlat Thank you very much for your well-reasoned response. I do have someone who is collecting the donations but she makes no effort because she says she has never had a GM ask for money before (the 2 DMs she had). She also admits she has never had a GM pay for the venue, bring the snacks, etc & also says that the players would chip in for pizza which the GM would partake in. So it seems strange they don't understand as you do that all I want to do is "not have to pay for all the overhead".
I will take your approach & preface it as a club. You are right that in the end, the part they probably have the most issue is that I would be the one who holds the dndbeyond account & books. This is why I really went out of my way to pay for the venue & provide the snacks. Thanks again.
Odd... My IRL Pay To Play schedule has increased post covid. Both the number of campaigns I DM and players per session have doubled. I may be an outlier though. Do you have data to back your claim or as like me just personal observations? (I am genuinely curious as any data helps with my negotiations on operating costs/fee scheduling.)
@Damian_Magecraft I also feel like it should be more given covid. The venue I have is spacious & well aerated plus doesn't require masks or vaccines.
@LinkLite They are not sharing ANY costs. I have sent an email to the players telling them that the $5/session is mandatory. I am sure most if not all of them will drop out. Which is fine...I can't keep sustaining this by myself. All D&D materials including the campaign materials I have paid for myself. Some players do bring snacks, pretty much for themselves. Only once or twice have they even offered me. And yes, it does hurt that they don't send me their backstories, tell me in advance that they won't show up so I can plan, show up late, etc. That adds insult to injury. Honestly if the group was really, really engaged & helping my GMing, I may even think paying $20/session to play with them may be worth it. But its far from that unfortunately. Honestly, my players from my professional GM days were less demanding & more enthusiastic.
Are the players aware of the situation with the subscription, such that at any point you could lose asccess to mosst of the D&D materials? (I I wouldn't expect a friend who isn't playing to renew their subscription just so you can use it.
You have tried suggesting and have recieved little in return. I would work the total cost per year to play, th cost fo books, snacks, maps, the venue if you would not need to pay it if the game stopped and so on,. Decide how much of that (if any) you are willing to contribute (the answer could be all or it could be negative if you want to be paid for your time but your post implies neither is the case, either zero or an equal amount to the players seems reasonable) and then tell them that if they do not pay the remaining amount between them (not necessarily all at once) them you will cease to DM.
@Jegpeg Yes, Yes, Yes. That is what is crazy.
We can lose the access at any time & we don't even have the hardcover books so we would have to rely on pdfs from the web ouch! I come from the pen & paper days but those folks are constantly using the dndbeyond. My friend is not even a close friend & a former player who has been extremely generous & they don't appreciate that. They just seem so unappreciative not just in covering costs but the game itself. They show up, have a good time, & seem to enjoy but aside from those 4 hours, they don't text me about their characters, don't seem to know their own abilities, etc. Most of them are from the video game era & so may not be as invested.
The amount I would be willing to pay is complicated because I have already put in $750 for those 7.5 months that they (collectively, players have come & gone) paid nothing.
How much have you actually discussed your financial situation with the players? Or asked them to contribute anything before you decided to charge for your sessions? Because if you haven't told your players that it's costing you $100 a month for the gaming venue they're probably assuming that it's something you're getting free.
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