Thank you all for the commentary so far. It probably got drowned out originally, but I will repost the question from my initial post: If a Sorcerer caused this repeatedly to each citizen of a town or city, how would the citizens react if they saw our sorcerer?
And this is under the assumption that the only way they know of our sorcerer is through charm person. Nothing bad has happened to the charmed person except made to feel a specific way of treating the sorcerer as a friendly acquaintance and that they know they were charmed by them.
By RAW, they would know your sorcerer was the one who did it. The spell says "they know they were charmed by you." The target knows it was charmed and it knows who did the charming. How that happens is up to the DM, the spell doesn't say. There is no single 'right' interpretation, because the spell does what it says it does and any ambiguities, vagueness, or inderterminate space is left to the DM to fill as they deem fit.
If your table finds that ridiculous, obnoxious, or otherwise harmful to your fun? Change it. D&D lets you do that. If you want to swindle merchants with Charm person for free without invoking the spell's downside by disguising the cast? Have at it. See what the DM says. How it works for your table will be different than how it is for mine, or Choir's, or anyone else's.
I see you didn't read my question.
If a sorcerer affected an entire city in this manner where the information given is only through charm person, how does the city react?
To keep the discussion going, lets say it always gives the casters appearence and name. But they have never seen this sorcerer in person.
They just know. I guess they don't know *how* they know, but if they have an expert around they might learn that this... Symptom is only associated with one spell. Or however many spells, I don't know off the top of my head. Probably less than half a dozen and they're all sort of similar. So after that, they'd be able to figure out what's happened. But if they can find no such expert, they'd probably, idk, organize a witch hunt?
The real fun would be if its a Changeling Sorcerer 4 / Warlock 2. As at 4th level they picked up Metamagic Adept so they have 6 sorcery points. And they can just spend short rest to recover either 2 sorcery points or 1 sorcery point and a use of charm person. Patron I can't immediately think which would fit for our build.
The spell as described explains you! did it. So the spell gives their name if they have one, and their true appearence as according to the moderator in this thread no disguise can conceal it. To fit with the OP's idea, the Changeling's name is Nobody. Which is how Nobody both gives and hides information at the same time. As the example shopkeeper might see Nobody as a rotund male halfling bard, and Nobody casts a subtle charm person on them and walks off. After an hour wears off, the shopkeeper knows that Nobody did it but sees a lithe changeling woman instead of the rotund male halfling bard. In addition, when its revealed who did it, Nobody is already wearing different clothes.
As for the OP's question, of how would a city or town would react, well simply with much paranoia. Anyone could technically be the Changeling named Nobody. So people start to mistrust each other. That new dwarven merchant who came to peddle their wares? Its obviously got to be Nobody. That roaming human guard? Nobody. That grandma who sits on their rocking chair all the time? Nobody.
This is sort of a fun antagonistic npc to be quiet honest and its why I came out of lurking. Its like a False Hydra but instead of killing people and hiding the destruction and bloodshed it causes, it instead intentionally causes mass paranoia.
The issue is that you're asking me to resolve an action, or in this case a large series of actions, in a white room without involving any players or any world lore.
I can tell you what would happen if a specific player charmed his way through a specific city in one of my games/worlds. I know how I would run that scenario - a concerted effort would be made to hunt down the sorcerer and imprison him. Depending on the severity of what was done while he'd charmed a city (apparently nothing) and the speed at which he managed to spread the effect, he may or may not lose his tongue to prevent him from being able to provide vocal spell components. Charming an entire city, secretly, and then seemingly doing nothing with it is the sort of thing BBEG supervillains get up to, and no governing body in a world I run would tolerate someone charming every single person in a city including all of its governing officials.
Is any of that RAW? No. But it doesn't matter, because RAW is a tool, not the limits of the game. I cannot tell you how "a city" would react; I can tell you how my city would react. Just like you're the only one that could tell me how your city would react. "A City" doesn't have rules or a statblock, every DM runs their game their own way. Every city will react differently to every action the party takes. Some actions will get them lauded as heroes and showered in riches. Some actions will get them working community service to pay off civic debts. Some actions will get them imprisoned. And some actions will get them exiled or executed. Casting mind-altering magic on an entire city, for me and for most of the cities in games I'd run, would land between "imprisoned" and "executed". Because I've made the deliberate decision in my own worlds that mind-affecting magic is restricted and deeply frowned upon, and deploying it on such a scale would be among the highest crimes a PC could commit.
So. How would your specific city react to a sorcerer casting such magic?
The real fun would be if its a Changeling Sorcerer 4 / Warlock 2. As at 4th level they picked up Metamagic Adept so they have 6 sorcery points. And they can just spend short rest to recover either 2 sorcery points or 1 sorcery point and a use of charm person. Patron I can't immediately think which would fit for our build.
The spell as described explains you! did it. So the spell gives their name if they have one, and their true appearence as according to the moderator in this thread no disguise can conceal it. To fit with the OP's idea, the Changeling's name is Nobody. Which is how Nobody both gives and hides information at the same time. As the example shopkeeper might see Nobody as a rotund male halfling bard, and Nobody casts a subtle charm person on them and walks off. After an hour wears off, the shopkeeper knows that Nobody did it but sees a lithe changeling woman instead of the rotund male halfling bard. In addition, when its revealed who did it, Nobody is already wearing different clothes.
As for the OP's question, of how would a city or town would react, well simply with much paranoia. Anyone could technically be the Changeling named Nobody. So people start to mistrust each other. That new dwarven merchant who came to peddle their wares? Its obviously got to be Nobody. That roaming human guard? Nobody. That grandma who sits on their rocking chair all the time? Nobody.
This is sort of a fun antagonistic npc to be quiet honest and its why I came out of lurking. Its like a False Hydra but instead of killing people and hiding the destruction and bloodshed it causes, it instead intentionally causes mass paranoia.
Also thinking on it more it would be kind of funny. Where a DM explains as your walking past a shopkeeper you hear him yell at the top of his lungs "NOBODY HAS CHARMED ME!". Which is both a true statement that would normally be alarming and also a tongue-in-cheek gag.
Also it might lead to some interesting changes in how the city views the person. Obviously you got people in paranoia mode who are suspicious of everyone and will start witchhunting their neighbors to find this Nobody. But what about secret admirers or even cultists? Where people start idolizing and/or worshipping this sorcereress who only seems to care about charming random people and appearing in their minds. That you actually could have people who want to be charmed by them and might very well get jealous if they learn someone else gets charmed instead. This could also be a strange source of income for the city. As you have tourists who want to visit a 'strange city' where everyone has been charmed by a sorceress they have never seen. Depending also on the profiteering side, this could lead to merchants who sell masks to resemble Nobody's true face, which Nobody could also make use of.
Their alignment could be anything, but I would learn towards some form of Chaotic, maybe Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral. No rhyme or reason why they do the things they do. Maybe they enjoy the subtle havoc they cause. Its possible citizens might second guess themselves and think they had their memory also altered in some way, as even a commoner would know that charm person is usually used for some nefarious purpose other than to be cast.
The real fun would be if its a Changeling Sorcerer 4 / Warlock 2. As at 4th level they picked up Metamagic Adept so they have 6 sorcery points. And they can just spend short rest to recover either 2 sorcery points or 1 sorcery point and a use of charm person. Patron I can't immediately think which would fit for our build.
The spell as described explains you! did it. So the spell gives their name if they have one, and their true appearence as according to the moderator in this thread no disguise can conceal it. To fit with the OP's idea, the Changeling's name is Nobody. Which is how Nobody both gives and hides information at the same time. As the example shopkeeper might see Nobody as a rotund male halfling bard, and Nobody casts a subtle charm person on them and walks off. After an hour wears off, the shopkeeper knows that Nobody did it but sees a lithe changeling woman instead of the rotund male halfling bard. In addition, when its revealed who did it, Nobody is already wearing different clothes.
As for the OP's question, of how would a city or town would react, well simply with much paranoia. Anyone could technically be the Changeling named Nobody. So people start to mistrust each other. That new dwarven merchant who came to peddle their wares? Its obviously got to be Nobody. That roaming human guard? Nobody. That grandma who sits on their rocking chair all the time? Nobody.
This is sort of a fun antagonistic npc to be quiet honest and its why I came out of lurking. Its like a False Hydra but instead of killing people and hiding the destruction and bloodshed it causes, it instead intentionally causes mass paranoia.
Also thinking on it more it would be kind of funny. Where a DM explains as your walking past a shopkeeper you hear him yell at the top of his lungs "NOBODY HAS CHARMED ME!". Which is both a true statement that would normally be alarming and also a tongue-in-cheek gag.
Also it might lead to some interesting changes in how the city views the person. Obviously you got people in paranoia mode who are suspicious of everyone and will start witchhunting their neighbors to find this Nobody. But what about secret admirers or even cultists? Where people start idolizing and/or worshipping this sorcereress who only seems to care about charming random people and appearing in their minds. That you actually could have people who want to be charmed by them and might very well get jealous if they learn someone else gets charmed instead. This could also be a strange source of income for the city. As you have tourists who want to visit a 'strange city' where everyone has been charmed by a sorceress they have never seen. Depending also on the profiteering side, this could lead to merchants who sell masks to resemble Nobody's true face, which Nobody could also make use of.
Their alignment could be anything, but I would learn towards some form of Chaotic, maybe Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral. No rhyme or reason why they do the things they do. Maybe they enjoy the subtle havoc they cause. Its possible citizens might second guess themselves and think they had their memory also altered in some way, as even a commoner would know that charm person is usually used for some nefarious purpose other than to be cast.
Last post for this one I swear, then I go back to lurking, as my brain is still contemplating this character. What if the citizens start blaming her for all the woes they have. Not because she actually did it, but because she is a convenient scapegoat. The local king has their crown stolen? A dragon loses its hoard while it was away/sleeping and now goes on a rampage? The envoy got murdered last night? People just blame Nobody.
And based on how long this has been happening, Nobody could become a mythical sort of figure.That people start narrating tales around that may or may not be false. Like if we work with the paranoia side, mothers and fathers might tell their children of Nobody and what she does to kids who misbehave. Obviously every story involving Nobody would have to be taken with a grain of salt. As both factual information and misinformation are both valid when talking of them.
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Charm person is really good, but it only makes the other person "a friendly acquaintince" for one hour. If you're doing something contrary to there interests, they can still turn on you. Either way, if you charm, lets go with, a cultsist, and then kill his real best friend. he will start to fight you again. If you charm the cultist outside of combat, he still wont tell you the secrets of his cult, he just probably wont attack you unless you do something EXTREMELY hostile to him.
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BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explainHERE.
Someone else doing something similar doesn't mean a good DM couldn't run with an idea and make it fun. If that was the case nobody'd ever play D&D again, because there's not a lick of originality left in this game.
Hey all, I came across your discussion about this spell as I'm looking at using this combo of Charmed and Subtle spell etc and looking at the feasibility and so on. Interesting and provoking thoughts - though I do think the original question got a bit lost in opinions/interpretations as usual.
Anywho I came across two interesting tweets from Jeremey Crawford about two aspects which might help inform thoughts and ideas. It certainly has for me:
IMO (and I know I haven't been around here long so it may not be worth much) If the subject of the charm spell sees 'You' after the spell passes, they know 'You' charmed them, it's the residual link the magic left behind.
In the OP's question, in this circumstance the entire city would be know the caster had tinkered with their minds, even if the caster didn't 'Do' anything.
How would they react? That depends on the general feeling toward magic, but I'd think quite a bit of hostility would be reasonable.
Perhaps my thinking might be a bit of an overreaction, but I always thought the charm condition inflicted upon anyone was more or less the equivilent of a magical roofie. Personally, the aspect of overriding someone's freewill has been very off putting to me. I don't enjoy casting spells with those effects, nor do I enjoy be affected by them. It feels wrong. I mean, there are some pretty evil and dark uses for such a spell that might seem rather simple if you think about it. I find it gets worse with other spells like dominate person. I suppose it might depend on how the charm is used by the charater or the frequency of which the character chooses to use it. As far as your example goes, I imagine that the random townspeople would be very PO'ed at the sorcerer. They might become outwardly hostile or avoid them at all costs. Maybe they become paranoid and everyone starts buying rings of mind shielding or something like that to help protect themselves from being taken advantage of? Shopkeepers and other townsfolk might refuse service or any sort of interaction with them and anyone associated with them. I think it really depends on how often the sorcerer does it, what they use it for, who they do it to, and also how many people they're using it on. Who knows? They might collectively decide to run them out of town if not worse.
But how about an amulet that grants advantage against all enchantment spells? Simple and cheap. Or an amulet that gives protection against Charm spells? A bit less simple and a bit more expensive.
But something any shop keep who sells expensive items would quickly find and buy.
They just know. I guess they don't know *how* they know, but if they have an expert around they might learn that this... Symptom is only associated with one spell. Or however many spells, I don't know off the top of my head. Probably less than half a dozen and they're all sort of similar. So after that, they'd be able to figure out what's happened. But if they can find no such expert, they'd probably, idk, organize a witch hunt?
The real fun would be if its a Changeling Sorcerer 4 / Warlock 2. As at 4th level they picked up Metamagic Adept so they have 6 sorcery points. And they can just spend short rest to recover either 2 sorcery points or 1 sorcery point and a use of charm person. Patron I can't immediately think which would fit for our build.
The spell as described explains you! did it. So the spell gives their name if they have one, and their true appearence as according to the moderator in this thread no disguise can conceal it. To fit with the OP's idea, the Changeling's name is Nobody. Which is how Nobody both gives and hides information at the same time. As the example shopkeeper might see Nobody as a rotund male halfling bard, and Nobody casts a subtle charm person on them and walks off. After an hour wears off, the shopkeeper knows that Nobody did it but sees a lithe changeling woman instead of the rotund male halfling bard. In addition, when its revealed who did it, Nobody is already wearing different clothes.
As for the OP's question, of how would a city or town would react, well simply with much paranoia. Anyone could technically be the Changeling named Nobody. So people start to mistrust each other. That new dwarven merchant who came to peddle their wares? Its obviously got to be Nobody. That roaming human guard? Nobody. That grandma who sits on their rocking chair all the time? Nobody.
This is sort of a fun antagonistic npc to be quiet honest and its why I came out of lurking. Its like a False Hydra but instead of killing people and hiding the destruction and bloodshed it causes, it instead intentionally causes mass paranoia.
The issue is that you're asking me to resolve an action, or in this case a large series of actions, in a white room without involving any players or any world lore.
I can tell you what would happen if a specific player charmed his way through a specific city in one of my games/worlds. I know how I would run that scenario - a concerted effort would be made to hunt down the sorcerer and imprison him. Depending on the severity of what was done while he'd charmed a city (apparently nothing) and the speed at which he managed to spread the effect, he may or may not lose his tongue to prevent him from being able to provide vocal spell components. Charming an entire city, secretly, and then seemingly doing nothing with it is the sort of thing BBEG supervillains get up to, and no governing body in a world I run would tolerate someone charming every single person in a city including all of its governing officials.
Is any of that RAW? No. But it doesn't matter, because RAW is a tool, not the limits of the game. I cannot tell you how "a city" would react; I can tell you how my city would react. Just like you're the only one that could tell me how your city would react. "A City" doesn't have rules or a statblock, every DM runs their game their own way. Every city will react differently to every action the party takes. Some actions will get them lauded as heroes and showered in riches. Some actions will get them working community service to pay off civic debts. Some actions will get them imprisoned. And some actions will get them exiled or executed. Casting mind-altering magic on an entire city, for me and for most of the cities in games I'd run, would land between "imprisoned" and "executed". Because I've made the deliberate decision in my own worlds that mind-affecting magic is restricted and deeply frowned upon, and deploying it on such a scale would be among the highest crimes a PC could commit.
So. How would your specific city react to a sorcerer casting such magic?
Please do not contact or message me.
Also thinking on it more it would be kind of funny. Where a DM explains as your walking past a shopkeeper you hear him yell at the top of his lungs "NOBODY HAS CHARMED ME!". Which is both a true statement that would normally be alarming and also a tongue-in-cheek gag.
Also it might lead to some interesting changes in how the city views the person. Obviously you got people in paranoia mode who are suspicious of everyone and will start witchhunting their neighbors to find this Nobody. But what about secret admirers or even cultists? Where people start idolizing and/or worshipping this sorcereress who only seems to care about charming random people and appearing in their minds. That you actually could have people who want to be charmed by them and might very well get jealous if they learn someone else gets charmed instead. This could also be a strange source of income for the city. As you have tourists who want to visit a 'strange city' where everyone has been charmed by a sorceress they have never seen. Depending also on the profiteering side, this could lead to merchants who sell masks to resemble Nobody's true face, which Nobody could also make use of.
Their alignment could be anything, but I would learn towards some form of Chaotic, maybe Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral. No rhyme or reason why they do the things they do. Maybe they enjoy the subtle havoc they cause. Its possible citizens might second guess themselves and think they had their memory also altered in some way, as even a commoner would know that charm person is usually used for some nefarious purpose other than to be cast.
Last post for this one I swear, then I go back to lurking, as my brain is still contemplating this character. What if the citizens start blaming her for all the woes they have. Not because she actually did it, but because she is a convenient scapegoat. The local king has their crown stolen? A dragon loses its hoard while it was away/sleeping and now goes on a rampage? The envoy got murdered last night? People just blame Nobody.
And based on how long this has been happening, Nobody could become a mythical sort of figure.That people start narrating tales around that may or may not be false. Like if we work with the paranoia side, mothers and fathers might tell their children of Nobody and what she does to kids who misbehave. Obviously every story involving Nobody would have to be taken with a grain of salt. As both factual information and misinformation are both valid when talking of them.
I never thought I'd see a D&D riff on a Family Circus gag, but here we are
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Charm person is really good, but it only makes the other person "a friendly acquaintince" for one hour. If you're doing something contrary to there interests, they can still turn on you. Either way, if you charm, lets go with, a cultsist, and then kill his real best friend. he will start to fight you again. If you charm the cultist outside of combat, he still wont tell you the secrets of his cult, he just probably wont attack you unless you do something EXTREMELY hostile to him.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.@AntonSirius
It's actually a riff on The Odyssey. Specifically The part with the Cyclops.
But that is pretty close to D&D anyway.
Someone else doing something similar doesn't mean a good DM couldn't run with an idea and make it fun. If that was the case nobody'd ever play D&D again, because there's not a lick of originality left in this game.
Please do not contact or message me.
Hey all, I came across your discussion about this spell as I'm looking at using this combo of Charmed and Subtle spell etc and looking at the feasibility and so on. Interesting and provoking thoughts - though I do think the original question got a bit lost in opinions/interpretations as usual.
Anywho I came across two interesting tweets from Jeremey Crawford about two aspects which might help inform thoughts and ideas. It certainly has for me:
- Subtle Spell's effects
- Perception of who exactly charmed them i.e. used disguise self, put on a mask and a wig etc
IMO (and I know I haven't been around here long so it may not be worth much) If the subject of the charm spell sees 'You' after the spell passes, they know 'You' charmed them, it's the residual link the magic left behind.
In the OP's question, in this circumstance the entire city would be know the caster had tinkered with their minds, even if the caster didn't 'Do' anything.
How would they react? That depends on the general feeling toward magic, but I'd think quite a bit of hostility would be reasonable.
Perhaps my thinking might be a bit of an overreaction, but I always thought the charm condition inflicted upon anyone was more or less the equivilent of a magical roofie. Personally, the aspect of overriding someone's freewill has been very off putting to me. I don't enjoy casting spells with those effects, nor do I enjoy be affected by them. It feels wrong. I mean, there are some pretty evil and dark uses for such a spell that might seem rather simple if you think about it. I find it gets worse with other spells like dominate person. I suppose it might depend on how the charm is used by the charater or the frequency of which the character chooses to use it. As far as your example goes, I imagine that the random townspeople would be very PO'ed at the sorcerer. They might become outwardly hostile or avoid them at all costs. Maybe they become paranoid and everyone starts buying rings of mind shielding or something like that to help protect themselves from being taken advantage of? Shopkeepers and other townsfolk might refuse service or any sort of interaction with them and anyone associated with them. I think it really depends on how often the sorcerer does it, what they use it for, who they do it to, and also how many people they're using it on. Who knows? They might collectively decide to run them out of town if not worse.
Old thread
But how about an amulet that grants advantage against all enchantment spells? Simple and cheap.
Or an amulet that gives protection against Charm spells? A bit less simple and a bit more expensive.
But something any shop keep who sells expensive items would quickly find and buy.
If you enter someone's mind they will know who entered it...you.
if you used distant spell, in order to cast it, you also need to see your target.
Also if more than one person tells you the exact same thing, you still don't want to accept reality...
Really sociopathic of you.
God forbid you ever have to be in charge of anyone ever.