As much as I know many, many people want this to be the case, it would still be tricky.
The concept of coupons is not new, but the tricky part for Wizards is making it so the coupon redeemer and the person who bought the digital product are the same. The easiest way of doing this is by making the coupons small enough that the bonus from people double-buying books makes up for the loss from coupon transfer, and that means rather small coupons (probably in the 10-25% range).
As much as I know many, many people want this to be the case, it would still be tricky.
The concept of coupons is not new, but the tricky part for Wizards is making it so the coupon redeemer and the person who bought the digital product are the same. The easiest way of doing this is by making the coupons small enough that the bonus from people double-buying books makes up for the loss from coupon transfer, and that means rather small coupons (probably in the 10-25% range).
The cost to WotC wasn't what I was referring to. Coupons are easy if they are universal, but they become trickier for retailers when each one has to be unique and has to be verified (it's an authentic code) and recorded (whether the code has already been used). That means the point of sale system, a real person in a store or the checkout system of an online retailer, has to be able to perform these functions. WotC's side is by far the easier side of the equation. A lot of retailers aren't going to be able to implement those requirements no matter how easy WotC makes it, and that will potentially drive away customers (possibly even losing them altogether if the customer thinks the store is simply denying them a discount they are owed).
They could do it as a bundle. $60 for the book either online or in print. $100 and you get it online+ they mail you a hard copy. I imagine they don’t want to get into the business of shipping and fulfillment, but they might be able to find a partner for that. As long as the total price gives the consumer some kind of break, it might work.
There might be an issue passing off flgs, since they help drive magic sales, though. But that’s for the MBAs to sort out.
They could do it as a bundle. $60 for the book either online or in print. $100 and you get it online+ they mail you a hard copy. I imagine they don’t want to get into the business of shipping and fulfillment, but they might be able to find a partner for that. As long as the total price gives the consumer some kind of break, it might work.
There might be an issue passing off flgs, since they help drive magic sales, though. But that’s for the MBAs to sort out.
Electronic codes are easier to make unique and all, but Hasbro as a company really doesn't want the FLGS to die, it's not just Magic, it's also board games, action figures, ...
So will they let us transfer hard copy books into digital now? I got the starter set awhile ago. Will they maybe send me a code to unlock the digital versions?? If not that’s ok, but it would be nice.
So will they let us transfer hard copy books into digital now?
Definitely not. Something that allows you to buy both at a discount is vaguely possible (if somewhat challenging), but doing it retroactively is neither practical nor something they would want to do.
I gotta love all these posters who are assuming WotC just dropped $147 million on a company in order to give folks who had been on the fence about buying into D&D for almost five years (a window during which many people actually bought into D&D beyond) free access to the toolsets. D&D Beyond wasn't acquired by WotC to give D&D players free stuff. D&D Beyond was acquired by WotC because it is another way to make money off of D&D players.
Curious how did those 4e WotC hosted tools work?
Anyway, I don't see any retroactive opening of the floodgates making existing paid content suddenly available to anyone who says they have hardcopy. Nor do I see a system being imposed to make it so regarding the line currently in print. Maybe "enhanced editions" of some sort regarding whatever CD PROJEKCT D&D 2024 GOLD will come out with, or the "evolution" that comes after that. I really doubt they're going to suddenly "make free" content many DDB users have in fact already put a lot of money into in print and digital. But who knows maybe that's what D&D Direct is all about.
I didn't catch the Dev update, so maybe this was addressed, but I"m wondering how much autonomy DDB will have from the regular D&D Design studio. I'm seeing it as most likely getting integrated. We've been told in the initial press that our content, characters and campaigns will be preserved, but nothing about homebrew or "community." Todd Kendrick, the guy who led the team Joe and company replaced has been "the guy" at the D&D Design studio for a few months now, so when this acquisition is done, I can't see DDB having a content studio separate from the D&D studio. It's a redundancy. Though who knows? WotC's may be becoming aware of how people really didn't like what Todd's shop did with Sage Advice (teasing the future of the game as opposed to giving straight answers to rules questions) in their most recent release so maybe there'll be more shake ups. I don't know if this board or the discord will have a future under a WotC regime. Just a hunch. But I think the folks who believe this board just became the de facto WotC forums 1.) didn't read the entirety of the press release in terms of when the sale will be final and 2.) really should take a broader look at how Hasbro manages its fan communities. As general practice they don't make space for folks yelling at each other over angels dancing on the head of a pin or play style arguments.
But as for the general announcement, wasn't shocked, it makes a lot of sense, and good sense at that. I don't think D&D will be "completely digital" in its next iteration but some sort of in house digital accommodation makes a lot of sense, D&D Beyond is the only digital partner completely dedicated to D&D, etc.. I'm glad that folks who invested in D&D as consumers have some assurance of the content's security, and I'm also hoping this may mean the actual tool developers will be granted the resources to really achieve D&D Beyond's often frustrated potential.
I suspect the way they worked was a problem for WotC that they don't want to repeat, because it actually gave you access to things added in new books without buying the book... (you did have to subscribe, but I don't think it was adequate to cover).
Any possibility that DDB could be a central authority for digital ownership of D&D products now?
Having a financial incentive for other sites to support/respect it is tricky, but it'd be nice to not have to pay full price on fantasy grounds/roll20/etc. for digital content if they were allowed to look up that I already paid for the rights to a digital version of the product via DDB.
I imagine these other sites would want (at least) one of the following to support 'connecting' to DDB's digital license over fully separately charging for their own digital license, otherwise there's not really any incentive to respect the DDB digital ownership:
Be able to charge users to 'connect' to DDB to look up the owned products
Be able to require an active subscription to their own service to respect the DDB ownership
Be able to obtain a slice of DDB's income on any digital products used through this connection
Be able to charge users for their custom integrations that make use of the owned digital products (character builder support, etc.)
I wonder what if that coupon only works if they have a physical copy of that book so when they use that coupon on the web site they come up with a random question based on the contents of that book to confirm they have a copy when they use the coupon?
If the coupon can only be used once for that book that means to gain access to that coupon they need a fresh copy and not one bought from someone else who has already used the coupon for that release.
?Myself I buy all the books here, and for Deadtree books I buy from amazon.ca as I can save almost $40.00 CDN over what my UFLGS (unfriendly) charges, and they don't allow adventures league there as someone may use a book bought elsewhere. So I don't really care if they go out of business. So if they do a bundle or add a code to physical I will buy from Amazon or here at DDB depending what they do with a bundle if they ever do them, if they don't I'm still good going the way I have been.
Any possibility that DDB could be a central authority for digital ownership of D&D products now?
It's technically possible but unlikely, because when a third party (such as roll20) sells you a D&D product, they get part of the money, and if they're just being a portal for D&D Beyond, they don't, so why would they want to do that? It's not like formatting data for their particular platform is free.
Any possibility that DDB could be a central authority for digital ownership of D&D products now?
It's technically possible but unlikely, because when a third party (such as roll20) sells you a D&D product, they get part of the money, and if they're just being a portal for D&D Beyond, they don't, so why would they want to do that? It's not like formatting data for their particular platform is free.
That's exactly what most of the rest of the post you quoted was about, various methods the third parties could use to still make money off of respecting DDB's unlocked content.
Since the DDB user is already on the books as having access to a digital version of their content, if WOTC:
Doesn't require a cut of whatever service fee these third party sites charge users for the DDB ownership lookup, or
Does require a cut, but a smaller portion than the full licensing fee of the third party selling that digital content directly themselves
Then these third parties can charge less but still get similar profits.
Even if we assume that a system like this does nothing to increase the user base for these various third party platforms (or DDB digital ownership)*, a system where, say, Fantasy Grounds can go "Buy the PHB directly on our platform for $30 (XX% of which normally goes to WOTC)- or, if you already own a digital copy with DDB, unlock access to it in our tools for some % less (of which WOTC doesn't get as much of a cut)" would presumably be a nice way of saving the end users from eating licensing costs 2+ times for digital access to the same content while allowing Fantasy Grounds to still make about the same money for funding their actual integrations with their tech.
I'd like to believe there's at least some happy ground compared to where things currently sit where people don't have to pay as high a price on each of these third party sites but the third parties can still make their money, growing D&D's digital userbase via the lower prices in the process.
While I'm sure it's great for WOTC, I feel like the fact that I currently own about 7 ~$30 PHBs between digital and physical is a bit unnecessary** and WOTC could tone down how much of a cut they take on the 3rd party digital end of that a bit; they already know they got theirs through the DDB purchase.
*Which, the point is people would hopefully be more willing to try out and use these third party services- or to buy digital content on DDB- if it wasn't the third or fourth time they had to pay a full $30 for digital access to the PHB.
**I know I'm a power user in this scenario. I assume the average person is probably hesitant to pay for a digital copy twice- or even once, if they know they'd have to buy it in multiple locations to actually have a full digital toolset including VTT at the moment.
Just to be clear, is this a "as of this day dndb is wholly owned by wotc"? Or was this an announcement of the acquisition and there are still a bunch of lawyers and sec filings and actual acquisition won't take place for a few weeks or months?
From what I read, it sure seems to have been fast tracked and the deal is done and everything is in place. I'm just going by other big acquisition announcements lately where there's some time before it all becomes reality.
When does the acquisition actually take effect? Wotc has bought dndb, but obviously the lawyers and boards and execs gotta do a bunch of signing before they officially become part of the family.
That's something to consider, it may not be until q2 or q3 until everything becomes officially official.
If you just click the links to the actual press release with the presumably SEC required boilerplate about "forward looking language" you'll see that end of q2 or q3 are most likely when the sale will actually close. And even then, I wouldn't expect to see dramatic changes in the operations of DDB at that point. It's unclear whether DDB is to be maintained as a separate and distinct and autonomous entity from the WotC D&D studio (though I don't think that's likely) or will be integrated over time with the D&D studio (more likely). Notice DDB celebrates the sale as a partnership while WotC language mostly celebrates it as an acquisition (it sort of reminds of when Daimler-Benz bought Chrysler). And I guess you could say Fandom is saying "thanks, and good luck!"
There will likely be some efficiencies/redundancies to be made but unlikely to happen on Day 1 of the sale's closing. It makes a lot of sense for WotC to buy DDB, but what to do with DDB beyond owning it will evolve over time, especially as the "next evolution of D&D" starts to take shape.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
If you just click the links to the actual press release with the presumably SEC required boilerplate about "forward looking language" you'll see that end of q2 or q3 are most likely when the sale will actually close. And even then, I wouldn't expect to see dramatic changes in the operations of DDB at that point. It's unclear whether DDB is to be maintained as a separate and distinct and autonomous entity from the WotC D&D studio (though I don't think that's likely) or will be integrated over time with the D&D studio (more likely). Notice DDB celebrates the sale as a partnership while WotC language mostly celebrates it as an acquisition (it sort of reminds of when Daimler-Benz bought Chrysler). And I guess you could say Fandom is saying "thanks, and good luck!"
There will likely be some efficiencies/redundancies to be made but unlikely to happen on Day 1 of the sale's closing. It makes a lot of sense for WotC to buy DDB, but what to do with DDB beyond owning it will evolve over time, especially as the "next evolution of D&D" starts to take shape.
that's what's confusing me, one side is speaking as if it's all done and there's nothing left. so yeah, technically speaking Fandom still owns DNDB as of this second. But they're probably checked out until WoTC takes over in Q2/3.
I really wish this mindset of "gimmie free books please!" would just up keel over and die already. Not only because it's prominence on these forums is a chore on my existence, but also because I don't see why dead tree buyers should be given special treatment over a customer like myself.
I've bought all my content on DDB and I didn't get a tattooed bundle of tree flesh sent to my door, so why should physical copy people get free digital books? They shouldn't. Because that's unfair. Especially when these people haven't bought into the product for like 5 years whilst customers such as myself have bought into the product the MOMENT I had money or a birthday lined up.
I'd rather WotC spend that money on making DDB better instead of wasting money on getting book codes stolen and diminishing returns on people who didn't want to use this site in the first place.
I really wish this mindset of "gimmie free books please!" would just up keel over and die already. Not only because it's prominence on these forums is a chore on my existence, but also because I don't see why dead tree buyers should be given special treatment over a customer like myself.
I've bought all my content on DDB and I didn't get a tattooed bundle of tree flesh sent to my door, so why should physical copy people get free digital books? They shouldn't. Because that's unfair. Especially when these people haven't bought into the product for like 5 years whilst customers such as myself have bought into the product the MOMENT I had money or a birthday lined up.
I'd rather WotC spend that money on making DDB better instead of wasting money on getting book codes stolen and diminishing returns on people who didn't want to use this site in the first place.
Oh I get you there I am so sick of the give me free stuff crap, well those folks should just use the hombrew system and add it in.
I really wish this mindset of "gimmie free books please!" would just up keel over and die already. Not only because it's prominence on these forums is a chore on my existence, but also because I don't see why dead tree buyers should be given special treatment over a customer like myself.
I've bought all my content on DDB and I didn't get a tattooed bundle of tree flesh sent to my door, so why should physical copy people get free digital books? They shouldn't. Because that's unfair. Especially when these people haven't bought into the product for like 5 years whilst customers such as myself have bought into the product the MOMENT I had money or a birthday lined up.
I'd rather WotC spend that money on making DDB better instead of wasting money on getting book codes stolen and diminishing returns on people who didn't want to use this site in the first place.
Oh I get you there I am so sick of the give me free stuff crap, well those folks should just use the hombrew system and add it in.
I come at this the other way, I buy the physical books because I prefer them, I don’t want to start paying a premium (wizards will not give digital access for free) for the physical books I buy because it gives me access to a product online I won’t use.
I have bought the very specific stuff I need on DDB as a DM, the monsters, some magic items and the spells. My players pay the couple of pounds it costs for a non standard race and subclass if they want to play it for everything else I refer to the books directly because I prefer that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
The concept of coupons is not new, but the tricky part for Wizards is making it so the coupon redeemer and the person who bought the digital product are the same. The easiest way of doing this is by making the coupons small enough that the bonus from people double-buying books makes up for the loss from coupon transfer, and that means rather small coupons (probably in the 10-25% range).
The cost to WotC wasn't what I was referring to. Coupons are easy if they are universal, but they become trickier for retailers when each one has to be unique and has to be verified (it's an authentic code) and recorded (whether the code has already been used). That means the point of sale system, a real person in a store or the checkout system of an online retailer, has to be able to perform these functions. WotC's side is by far the easier side of the equation. A lot of retailers aren't going to be able to implement those requirements no matter how easy WotC makes it, and that will potentially drive away customers (possibly even losing them altogether if the customer thinks the store is simply denying them a discount they are owed).
They could do it as a bundle. $60 for the book either online or in print. $100 and you get it online+ they mail you a hard copy. I imagine they don’t want to get into the business of shipping and fulfillment, but they might be able to find a partner for that. As long as the total price gives the consumer some kind of break, it might work.
There might be an issue passing off flgs, since they help drive magic sales, though. But that’s for the MBAs to sort out.
Electronic codes are easier to make unique and all, but Hasbro as a company really doesn't want the FLGS to die, it's not just Magic, it's also board games, action figures, ...
So will they let us transfer hard copy books into digital now? I got the starter set awhile ago. Will they maybe send me a code to unlock the digital versions?? If not that’s ok, but it would be nice.
Same
Definitely not. Something that allows you to buy both at a discount is vaguely possible (if somewhat challenging), but doing it retroactively is neither practical nor something they would want to do.
I gotta love all these posters who are assuming WotC just dropped $147 million on a company in order to give folks who had been on the fence about buying into D&D for almost five years (a window during which many people actually bought into D&D beyond) free access to the toolsets. D&D Beyond wasn't acquired by WotC to give D&D players free stuff. D&D Beyond was acquired by WotC because it is another way to make money off of D&D players.
Curious how did those 4e WotC hosted tools work?
Anyway, I don't see any retroactive opening of the floodgates making existing paid content suddenly available to anyone who says they have hardcopy. Nor do I see a system being imposed to make it so regarding the line currently in print. Maybe "enhanced editions" of some sort regarding whatever CD PROJEKCT D&D 2024 GOLD will come out with, or the "evolution" that comes after that. I really doubt they're going to suddenly "make free" content many DDB users have in fact already put a lot of money into in print and digital. But who knows maybe that's what D&D Direct is all about.
I didn't catch the Dev update, so maybe this was addressed, but I"m wondering how much autonomy DDB will have from the regular D&D Design studio. I'm seeing it as most likely getting integrated. We've been told in the initial press that our content, characters and campaigns will be preserved, but nothing about homebrew or "community." Todd Kendrick, the guy who led the team Joe and company replaced has been "the guy" at the D&D Design studio for a few months now, so when this acquisition is done, I can't see DDB having a content studio separate from the D&D studio. It's a redundancy. Though who knows? WotC's may be becoming aware of how people really didn't like what Todd's shop did with Sage Advice (teasing the future of the game as opposed to giving straight answers to rules questions) in their most recent release so maybe there'll be more shake ups. I don't know if this board or the discord will have a future under a WotC regime. Just a hunch. But I think the folks who believe this board just became the de facto WotC forums 1.) didn't read the entirety of the press release in terms of when the sale will be final and 2.) really should take a broader look at how Hasbro manages its fan communities. As general practice they don't make space for folks yelling at each other over angels dancing on the head of a pin or play style arguments.
But as for the general announcement, wasn't shocked, it makes a lot of sense, and good sense at that. I don't think D&D will be "completely digital" in its next iteration but some sort of in house digital accommodation makes a lot of sense, D&D Beyond is the only digital partner completely dedicated to D&D, etc.. I'm glad that folks who invested in D&D as consumers have some assurance of the content's security, and I'm also hoping this may mean the actual tool developers will be granted the resources to really achieve D&D Beyond's often frustrated potential.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I suspect the way they worked was a problem for WotC that they don't want to repeat, because it actually gave you access to things added in new books without buying the book... (you did have to subscribe, but I don't think it was adequate to cover).
Any possibility that DDB could be a central authority for digital ownership of D&D products now?
Having a financial incentive for other sites to support/respect it is tricky, but it'd be nice to not have to pay full price on fantasy grounds/roll20/etc. for digital content if they were allowed to look up that I already paid for the rights to a digital version of the product via DDB.
I imagine these other sites would want (at least) one of the following to support 'connecting' to DDB's digital license over fully separately charging for their own digital license, otherwise there's not really any incentive to respect the DDB digital ownership:
I wonder what if that coupon only works if they have a physical copy of that book so when they use that coupon on the web site they come up with a random question based on the contents of that book to confirm they have a copy when they use the coupon?
If the coupon can only be used once for that book that means to gain access to that coupon they need a fresh copy and not one bought from someone else who has already used the coupon for that release.
Too complicated.
?Myself I buy all the books here, and for Deadtree books I buy from amazon.ca as I can save almost $40.00 CDN over what my UFLGS (unfriendly) charges, and they don't allow adventures league there as someone may use a book bought elsewhere. So I don't really care if they go out of business. So if they do a bundle or add a code to physical I will buy from Amazon or here at DDB depending what they do with a bundle if they ever do them, if they don't I'm still good going the way I have been.
It's technically possible but unlikely, because when a third party (such as roll20) sells you a D&D product, they get part of the money, and if they're just being a portal for D&D Beyond, they don't, so why would they want to do that? It's not like formatting data for their particular platform is free.
That's exactly what most of the rest of the post you quoted was about, various methods the third parties could use to still make money off of respecting DDB's unlocked content.
Since the DDB user is already on the books as having access to a digital version of their content, if WOTC:
Then these third parties can charge less but still get similar profits.
Even if we assume that a system like this does nothing to increase the user base for these various third party platforms (or DDB digital ownership)*, a system where, say, Fantasy Grounds can go "Buy the PHB directly on our platform for $30 (XX% of which normally goes to WOTC)- or, if you already own a digital copy with DDB, unlock access to it in our tools for some % less (of which WOTC doesn't get as much of a cut)" would presumably be a nice way of saving the end users from eating licensing costs 2+ times for digital access to the same content while allowing Fantasy Grounds to still make about the same money for funding their actual integrations with their tech.
I'd like to believe there's at least some happy ground compared to where things currently sit where people don't have to pay as high a price on each of these third party sites but the third parties can still make their money, growing D&D's digital userbase via the lower prices in the process.
While I'm sure it's great for WOTC, I feel like the fact that I currently own about 7 ~$30 PHBs between digital and physical is a bit unnecessary** and WOTC could tone down how much of a cut they take on the 3rd party digital end of that a bit; they already know they got theirs through the DDB purchase.
*Which, the point is people would hopefully be more willing to try out and use these third party services- or to buy digital content on DDB- if it wasn't the third or fourth time they had to pay a full $30 for digital access to the PHB.
**I know I'm a power user in this scenario. I assume the average person is probably hesitant to pay for a digital copy twice- or even once, if they know they'd have to buy it in multiple locations to actually have a full digital toolset including VTT at the moment.
Just to be clear, is this a "as of this day dndb is wholly owned by wotc"? Or was this an announcement of the acquisition and there are still a bunch of lawyers and sec filings and actual acquisition won't take place for a few weeks or months?
From what I read, it sure seems to have been fast tracked and the deal is done and everything is in place. I'm just going by other big acquisition announcements lately where there's some time before it all becomes reality.
If you just click the links to the actual press release with the presumably SEC required boilerplate about "forward looking language" you'll see that end of q2 or q3 are most likely when the sale will actually close. And even then, I wouldn't expect to see dramatic changes in the operations of DDB at that point. It's unclear whether DDB is to be maintained as a separate and distinct and autonomous entity from the WotC D&D studio (though I don't think that's likely) or will be integrated over time with the D&D studio (more likely). Notice DDB celebrates the sale as a partnership while WotC language mostly celebrates it as an acquisition (it sort of reminds of when Daimler-Benz bought Chrysler). And I guess you could say Fandom is saying "thanks, and good luck!"
There will likely be some efficiencies/redundancies to be made but unlikely to happen on Day 1 of the sale's closing. It makes a lot of sense for WotC to buy DDB, but what to do with DDB beyond owning it will evolve over time, especially as the "next evolution of D&D" starts to take shape.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
that's what's confusing me, one side is speaking as if it's all done and there's nothing left. so yeah, technically speaking Fandom still owns DNDB as of this second. But they're probably checked out until WoTC takes over in Q2/3.
I really wish this mindset of "gimmie free books please!" would just up keel over and die already. Not only because it's prominence on these forums is a chore on my existence, but also because I don't see why dead tree buyers should be given special treatment over a customer like myself.
I've bought all my content on DDB and I didn't get a tattooed bundle of tree flesh sent to my door, so why should physical copy people get free digital books? They shouldn't. Because that's unfair. Especially when these people haven't bought into the product for like 5 years whilst customers such as myself have bought into the product the MOMENT I had money or a birthday lined up.
I'd rather WotC spend that money on making DDB better instead of wasting money on getting book codes stolen and diminishing returns on people who didn't want to use this site in the first place.
Er ek geng, þat er í þeim skóm er ek valda.
UwU
Oh I get you there I am so sick of the give me free stuff crap, well those folks should just use the hombrew system and add it in.
I come at this the other way, I buy the physical books because I prefer them, I don’t want to start paying a premium (wizards will not give digital access for free) for the physical books I buy because it gives me access to a product online I won’t use.
I have bought the very specific stuff I need on DDB as a DM, the monsters, some magic items and the spells. My players pay the couple of pounds it costs for a non standard race and subclass if they want to play it for everything else I refer to the books directly because I prefer that.