The elemental is air. That means the elemental does what the air does.
I assume then that you'd allow control water to insta-kill a water elemental, since the spell can just cut it in half with the Part Water option
Why on earth would causing a water elemental to split in half kill it?
Edit: And this would only potentially affect elementals in the direct center of the effect. All other elementals would simply move.
I mean, if we're just making stuff up cuz it sounds cool, why wouldn't it?
After all, the elemental is water. That means the elemental does what the water does.
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I mean, why not? We're at the table to have fun, not to force our players to engage with content in exactly the way we prescribe. If we want them to engage with the world, to get immersed and play in character, then the worst thing we can probably do is say "yeah I see why you think this makes sense according to the fiction, but because of the way game terminology is formatted, or because of balance, or because I'm not prepared to have this encounter resolved so quickly, I'm gonna say no."
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I mean, why not? We're at the table to have fun, not to force our players to engage with content in exactly the way we prescribe. If we want them to engage with the world, to get immersed and play in character, then the worst thing we can probably do is say "yeah I see why you think this makes sense according to the fiction, but because of the way game terminology is formatted, or because of balance, or because I'm not prepared to have this encounter resolved so quickly, I'm gonna say no."
I'm gonna need you to clarify whether this is a response to my question directed at you, or to my question directed at Golaryn.
If you allow spells to do anything other than what is stated, then yes.
Is... THAT what we're doing
I mean, yeah.
Nothing in the spell says it would kill an air elemental any more than it kills the air within it (which it does not). In fact, there is a much stronger case for splitting a water elemental to kill it than "making a strong downdraft" would kill an air elemental, as though an air elemental has never been in a natural downdraft.
The spell says it lets you control the air within, but it later defines that to mean you do these 3 very specific sets of options (Gusts, Downdraft, Updraft). Wind elementals, for reference, are immune to literally all the effects of this spell except for Gusts -> Strong wind (They are immune to prone, have a fly speed, and no ranged attacks).
As I said above, I find it hard to believe that creating wind would kill an elemental, because if it does, then does an elemental exist at all without instantly dying to a natural light breeze? It must have some way of holding itself together, which it stands to reason would still work here because nothing in the spell would override that.
Also, there is good reason to believe a wind elemental isn't just wind, because as I said, they are literally sentient (non-sentient creatures are unaligned, see a cat for example, neutral alignment and the rest of the 9 square alignments are for sentient creatures), they have vision, and can literally speak. While they don't normally know Common, they can speak it if they learn it somehow (such as if you're a moon druid who transforms into an air elemental, or [Tooltip Not Found]). For reference, if you were to shapeshift into the previous cat, you would not be able to cause cats don't have a language and thus are considered to not be able to speak.
I mean, why not? We're at the table to have fun, not to force our players to engage with content in exactly the way we prescribe. If we want them to engage with the world, to get immersed and play in character, then the worst thing we can probably do is say "yeah I see why you think this makes sense according to the fiction, but because of the way game terminology is formatted, or because of balance, or because I'm not prepared to have this encounter resolved so quickly, I'm gonna say no."
I mean, true. Your DM can do whatever they want to do. I would probably go against just instantly killing the air elemental, as it doesn't really make sense to me that the spell would "kill" the air inside of it. I think in an actual game I'd allow the spell to ignore the air elementals natural immunities (i.e creating a downdraft to knock the air elemental down to the ground, which they are normally immune to) and that's it. No need to add additional effects on top of what the spell is normally supposed to do, but your table is your table and can do that if they want to.
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if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Well then in my case I'd answer yes you can control it the same way all creatures are controlled within the spell.
It's just RAW air elementals are heavily restricted in how they can be controlled, being immune to most effects like prone. Which, Rules As Cool, I'd probably raise those restrictions which case yeah ig we do have similar stances.
Edit: As for the original question, a Wind Elemental would be able to enter an area of calm wind created by the spell unaffected, because calm wind doesn't really do anything. I don't think a wind elemental would be made "calm", as the spell seems to imply that it creates a calm wind, rather than forcing all air within it to be calm, hence why it doesn't seem to block spells like Warding Wind or the Air Elemental's Whirlwind attack.
The elemental is air. That means the elemental does what the air does.
Having thought about it further, based on this compelling argument I've now decided that the Calm Gusts option on control winds would act like a calm emotions on air elementals. If air is air, then calm must be calm.
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The elemental is air. That means the elemental does what the air does.
Having thought about it further, based on this compelling argument I've now decided that the Calm Gusts option on control winds would act like a calm emotions on air elementals. If air is air, then calm must be calm.
Why does a spell have more control than an air elemental?
An air elemental inside an area of Control Winds can still use their whirlwind attack.
The elemental is air. That means the elemental does what the air does.
Having thought about it further, based on this compelling argument I've now decided that the Calm Gusts option on control winds would act like a calm emotions on air elementals. If air is air, then calm must be calm.
I get that you're being snarky, but I see no problem with this.
The elemental is air. That means the elemental does what the air does.
Having thought about it further, based on this compelling argument I've now decided that the Calm Gusts option on control winds would act like a calm emotions on air elementals. If air is air, then calm must be calm.
I get that you're being snarky, but I see no problem with this.
I just think there's a big gap between "encourage your players to use spells creatively" and "invent entirely new and powerful effects for spells because its description contains a word that has different meanings in different contexts"
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I didn't expect this question to result in such a heated debate, but the fact that it did sort of confirms that it's an ambiguous situation. Could be argued either way, and ultimately it will be up to the DM to decide.
This situation actually came up in our game. I am a player character, and our team is riding on an air ship. A storm blows in and starts threatening to talk us all off the ship, so our super high level druid casts control winds, choosing to calm them. This solves the problem of the weather, but then a storm giant and an air elemental board the ship and start fighting us. As the air elemental commences trying to gust me off the ship, I stop the DM and ask the question. "Aren't all the winds in this 100ft cube being controlled right now? If the air elemental is air, doesn't this mean it is controlled?"
My DM was very adamant that the air elemental is a creature, entirely unaffected by the control winds spell. He made all of the arguments made above. Since he is the DM, I was at his mercy, and we played on with the air elemental pushing and blasting air gusts at everyone on the ship, even though the air was supposed controlled to be calm in that area. But after the session, I posed the question here. Now I see that this is not a cut and dry issue.
To my mind, a descent analogy is swarm of cranium rats facing a "control rats" spell. The swarm is itself nothing but rats, though they are connected and made essentially into one creature by telepathy. Yet, if we say the "control rats" spell allows the caster to control all rats in a 100 ft cube, for instance, causing any rats in that cube to walk calmly West, then it would seem to me that any swarm of cranium rats entering that area would immediately walk calmly west until it is at the edge of the 100ft cube.
This is what I assumed would be the case with the air elemental facing the Control Winds spell. Since all the air is controlled to be a calm wind blowing West, that the air molecules that make up the air elemental would immediately blow calmly west until the air elemental is at the edge of the 100 ft cube.
I see why this may seem to be overpowered, but the Control Winds spell is a pretty high level spell. There is no risk of any low level character being able to carry this out.
Anyways, I think its up to the DM unless someone updates the Control Winds spell to explicitly decide the issue one way or the other.
I think this situation, and this thread, are an excellent example of the difference between "Rules As Written" and "The Rule of Cool".
Some will steadfastly argue that the rules clearly state that a creature is not an object, and that the spell does not apply to creatures, so by the Rules As Written the air elemental would be unaffected by the spell.
And that's fine. That is a perfectly valid position.
But let's also remember that this is... you know... a game. If a player comes up with a new and interesting way to deal with a challenge their character faces, I personally think the DM should at least be willing to meet the player half way and reward such creative problem solving.
If the people at one table have fun by diligently adhering to the letter of the law in every circumstance, let them have their fun. If the people at a different table enjoy being a little more loosey-goosey with the interpretation of what's possible, let them at their fun.
It's a game. As long as you're having fun, you're doing it right.
On a slightly unrelated note, I do find it weird that Control Winds states that:
A wind picks up within the cube, continually blowing in a horizontal direction you designate. You choose the intensity of the wind: calm, moderate, or strong.
Which seems to imply to me that it just creates a gust of wind, but most of the people here seem to be of the impression that it forces all air within it to be a certain type. From what i can tell, the spell doesn't seem to say anything of that sort, but at the same time it is a 5th level spell, so I'm inclined to say it's probably just me reading it wrong.
From the way I read the spell, how does "[calm] wind picks up" stop an air elemental or even just a Gust spell? I mean, unless the calm wind is like a lullaby, I don't see anything in the spell that would stop an air elemental. Nothing in the spell suggests to me that it forces all air to be calm (otherwise wouldn't it say so rather than saying it makes a gust of wind, or at the least it should say it stops spells like Gust), and because it's not a listed effect of the spell, it seems to me that calm wind just does nothing.
As written the spell doesn't even seem like it'd stop a preexisting natural strong wind, much less something like an air elemental's whirlwind.
There is the "You take control of the air in a 100-foot cube that you can see within range", but "control" doesn't mean all the air becomes calm or do whatever you want, in this context it just means you can force the air to do a particular set of actions, in this case create a calm wind that seems to be absolutely nothing as written.
However, I'm not sure my reading is intentional, since it seems like that would make that option pretty much useless. Especially for a 5th level spell slot.
I see where you're coming from, but it doesn't make sense. Take the gentle option - there is no effect listed. That's...a wasted L5 spell slot right there. You can't use it to negate current winds, add effects, etc. So...why have it?
It seems there is conflict between the name of the spell and the effects (as described). Either you're controlling the winds as the spell describes, or you're adding more to the mix as the spell description implies.
I'm wondering if the intent is the former. Mostly because of the gentle breeze aspect. If you're just adding winds, then the gentle breeze part is...pointless. it doesn't do anything. If you are controlling winds and actually changing them...then calm actually makes sense. If you're in a storm and you need to stop the wind somehow...here's your spell. Again, even in the spell description it states that you control the wind, not just add to it. Granted in the effects section it implies that you are adding...but I'm wondering if it's an oversight and the writer was imagining that you're starting off with no wind. Having just had a headache because my characters entered a building through a secret passage and therefore ended up going through a "dungeon" the "wrong" way and therefore having all the descriptions for each room be wrong (and it's not the first adventure this kind of silly oversight has been made), I don't think it's beyond WotC to make this kind of oversight.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
As the air elemental commences trying to gust me off the ship, I stop the DM and ask the question. "Aren't all the winds in this 100ft cube being controlled right now? If the air elemental is air, doesn't this mean it is controlled?"
My DM was very adamant that the air elemental is a creature, entirely unaffected by the control winds spell. He made all of the arguments made above. Since he is the DM, I was at his mercy, and we played on with the air elemental pushing and blasting air gusts at everyone on the ship, even though the air was supposed controlled to be calm in that area.
Keep in mind that an off-the-shelf air elemental has no such ability to "blast air gusts" and push people around in specific directions, so the DM was already working with a homebrewed creature
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I see where you're coming from, but it doesn't make sense. Take the gentle option - there is no effect listed. That's...a wasted L5 spell slot right there.
OP literally described a scenario where a storm was threatening their airship, and that "wasted spell slot" created a pocket within the storm to protect them from it
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I mean, if we're just making stuff up cuz it sounds cool, why wouldn't it?
After all, the elemental is water. That means the elemental does what the water does.
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Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Is that what we're doing?
If you allow spells to do anything other than what is stated, then yes.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Is... THAT what we're doing?
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Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I'm gonna need you to clarify whether this is a response to my question directed at you, or to my question directed at Golaryn.
I mean, yeah.
Nothing in the spell says it would kill an air elemental any more than it kills the air within it (which it does not). In fact, there is a much stronger case for splitting a water elemental to kill it than "making a strong downdraft" would kill an air elemental, as though an air elemental has never been in a natural downdraft.
The spell says it lets you control the air within, but it later defines that to mean you do these 3 very specific sets of options (Gusts, Downdraft, Updraft). Wind elementals, for reference, are immune to literally all the effects of this spell except for Gusts -> Strong wind (They are immune to prone, have a fly speed, and no ranged attacks).
As I said above, I find it hard to believe that creating wind would kill an elemental, because if it does, then does an elemental exist at all without instantly dying to a natural light breeze? It must have some way of holding itself together, which it stands to reason would still work here because nothing in the spell would override that.
Also, there is good reason to believe a wind elemental isn't just wind, because as I said, they are literally sentient (non-sentient creatures are unaligned, see a cat for example, neutral alignment and the rest of the 9 square alignments are for sentient creatures), they have vision, and can literally speak. While they don't normally know Common, they can speak it if they learn it somehow (such as if you're a moon druid who transforms into an air elemental, or [Tooltip Not Found]). For reference, if you were to shapeshift into the previous cat, you would not be able to cause cats don't have a language and thus are considered to not be able to speak.
I mean, true. Your DM can do whatever they want to do. I would probably go against just instantly killing the air elemental, as it doesn't really make sense to me that the spell would "kill" the air inside of it. I think in an actual game I'd allow the spell to ignore the air elementals natural immunities (i.e creating a downdraft to knock the air elemental down to the ground, which they are normally immune to) and that's it. No need to add additional effects on top of what the spell is normally supposed to do, but your table is your table and can do that if they want to.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
I never said I'd let it kill the air elemental, though.
Okay
Well then in my case I'd answer yes you can control it the same way all creatures are controlled within the spell.
It's just RAW air elementals are heavily restricted in how they can be controlled, being immune to most effects like prone. Which, Rules As Cool, I'd probably raise those restrictions which case yeah ig we do have similar stances.
Edit: As for the original question, a Wind Elemental would be able to enter an area of calm wind created by the spell unaffected, because calm wind doesn't really do anything. I don't think a wind elemental would be made "calm", as the spell seems to imply that it creates a calm wind, rather than forcing all air within it to be calm, hence why it doesn't seem to block spells like Warding Wind or the Air Elemental's Whirlwind attack.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Having thought about it further, based on this compelling argument I've now decided that the Calm Gusts option on control winds would act like a calm emotions on air elementals. If air is air, then calm must be calm.
Active characters:
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Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Why does a spell have more control than an air elemental?
An air elemental inside an area of Control Winds can still use their whirlwind attack.
I get that you're being snarky, but I see no problem with this.
Control Winds doesn't make the air within it calm, it just makes a calm wind. Hence why you can still cast things like Warding Wind inside of it.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
I just think there's a big gap between "encourage your players to use spells creatively" and "invent entirely new and powerful effects for spells because its description contains a word that has different meanings in different contexts"
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I didn't expect this question to result in such a heated debate, but the fact that it did sort of confirms that it's an ambiguous situation. Could be argued either way, and ultimately it will be up to the DM to decide.
This situation actually came up in our game. I am a player character, and our team is riding on an air ship. A storm blows in and starts threatening to talk us all off the ship, so our super high level druid casts control winds, choosing to calm them. This solves the problem of the weather, but then a storm giant and an air elemental board the ship and start fighting us. As the air elemental commences trying to gust me off the ship, I stop the DM and ask the question. "Aren't all the winds in this 100ft cube being controlled right now? If the air elemental is air, doesn't this mean it is controlled?"
My DM was very adamant that the air elemental is a creature, entirely unaffected by the control winds spell. He made all of the arguments made above. Since he is the DM, I was at his mercy, and we played on with the air elemental pushing and blasting air gusts at everyone on the ship, even though the air was supposed controlled to be calm in that area. But after the session, I posed the question here. Now I see that this is not a cut and dry issue.
To my mind, a descent analogy is swarm of cranium rats facing a "control rats" spell. The swarm is itself nothing but rats, though they are connected and made essentially into one creature by telepathy. Yet, if we say the "control rats" spell allows the caster to control all rats in a 100 ft cube, for instance, causing any rats in that cube to walk calmly West, then it would seem to me that any swarm of cranium rats entering that area would immediately walk calmly west until it is at the edge of the 100ft cube.
This is what I assumed would be the case with the air elemental facing the Control Winds spell. Since all the air is controlled to be a calm wind blowing West, that the air molecules that make up the air elemental would immediately blow calmly west until the air elemental is at the edge of the 100 ft cube.
I see why this may seem to be overpowered, but the Control Winds spell is a pretty high level spell. There is no risk of any low level character being able to carry this out.
Anyways, I think its up to the DM unless someone updates the Control Winds spell to explicitly decide the issue one way or the other.
I think this situation, and this thread, are an excellent example of the difference between "Rules As Written" and "The Rule of Cool".
Some will steadfastly argue that the rules clearly state that a creature is not an object, and that the spell does not apply to creatures, so by the Rules As Written the air elemental would be unaffected by the spell.
And that's fine. That is a perfectly valid position.
But let's also remember that this is... you know... a game. If a player comes up with a new and interesting way to deal with a challenge their character faces, I personally think the DM should at least be willing to meet the player half way and reward such creative problem solving.
If the people at one table have fun by diligently adhering to the letter of the law in every circumstance, let them have their fun. If the people at a different table enjoy being a little more loosey-goosey with the interpretation of what's possible, let them at their fun.
It's a game. As long as you're having fun, you're doing it right.
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.
On a slightly unrelated note, I do find it weird that Control Winds states that:
Which seems to imply to me that it just creates a gust of wind, but most of the people here seem to be of the impression that it forces all air within it to be a certain type. From what i can tell, the spell doesn't seem to say anything of that sort, but at the same time it is a 5th level spell, so I'm inclined to say it's probably just me reading it wrong.
From the way I read the spell, how does "[calm] wind picks up" stop an air elemental or even just a Gust spell? I mean, unless the calm wind is like a lullaby, I don't see anything in the spell that would stop an air elemental. Nothing in the spell suggests to me that it forces all air to be calm (otherwise wouldn't it say so rather than saying it makes a gust of wind, or at the least it should say it stops spells like Gust), and because it's not a listed effect of the spell, it seems to me that calm wind just does nothing.
As written the spell doesn't even seem like it'd stop a preexisting natural strong wind, much less something like an air elemental's whirlwind.
There is the "You take control of the air in a 100-foot cube that you can see within range", but "control" doesn't mean all the air becomes calm or do whatever you want, in this context it just means you can force the air to do a particular set of actions, in this case create a calm wind that seems to be absolutely nothing as written.
However, I'm not sure my reading is intentional, since it seems like that would make that option pretty much useless. Especially for a 5th level spell slot.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
I see where you're coming from, but it doesn't make sense. Take the gentle option - there is no effect listed. That's...a wasted L5 spell slot right there. You can't use it to negate current winds, add effects, etc. So...why have it?
It seems there is conflict between the name of the spell and the effects (as described). Either you're controlling the winds as the spell describes, or you're adding more to the mix as the spell description implies.
I'm wondering if the intent is the former. Mostly because of the gentle breeze aspect. If you're just adding winds, then the gentle breeze part is...pointless. it doesn't do anything. If you are controlling winds and actually changing them...then calm actually makes sense. If you're in a storm and you need to stop the wind somehow...here's your spell. Again, even in the spell description it states that you control the wind, not just add to it. Granted in the effects section it implies that you are adding...but I'm wondering if it's an oversight and the writer was imagining that you're starting off with no wind. Having just had a headache because my characters entered a building through a secret passage and therefore ended up going through a "dungeon" the "wrong" way and therefore having all the descriptions for each room be wrong (and it's not the first adventure this kind of silly oversight has been made), I don't think it's beyond WotC to make this kind of oversight.
I don't know, but it seems odd to me.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Keep in mind that an off-the-shelf air elemental has no such ability to "blast air gusts" and push people around in specific directions, so the DM was already working with a homebrewed creature
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
OP literally described a scenario where a storm was threatening their airship, and that "wasted spell slot" created a pocket within the storm to protect them from it
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)