Im in an odd situation and need some help figuring out what to do. Im the DM and most of the party have barly or never played D&D other than making characters with my assistance so im in a odd postion because I am figuring out the mechanics for most of the parties characters. One of these players wants to be a sniper which I think is fine. I want this build to be powerful especially because the campaign is hard. The most OP thing I can come up with based on what I have researched is PH Assassin Rogue, UA Revised Ranger with XGtE Gloom Stalker, the gun Bad News from Critical Role and the feats: Gunner, Sharpshooter and Piercer. I think this might be too OP, would all of this with PH Ranger would be better? Also the campaign goes to level 15. Thank you to anyone who answers.
Nothing is "OP" in a vacuum. Balance depends entirely on the relative power of any given PC to the other PCs and to the monsters, NPCs, or other enemies you plan to throw against them. An Assassin/Gloomstalker build is an ambusher that can do a lot of damage to single targets when they surprise their enemies and act first in combat. On top of that you're looking at a powerful, long range weapon which is awesome as long as enemies can't hit back but decidedly less so against multiple enemies surrounding and attacking them in melee.
If the rest of the party compliments this character by being similarly good at other things then that will balance them among the party. Other range focused characters, melee tanks that can hold enemies at bay, and/or ones with control abilities such as movement impairing spells will compliment such a character and give everybody something valuable to do. A sniper character is going to want chances to perch at a distance to make the best use of their abilities; the player will likely get frustrated in a "classic" dungeon crawl where evey combat takes place in enclosed spaces at ranges where enemies can easily close to melee with them in a single round but if you constantly give them perfectly secure positions to attack their foes from long range they aren't going to be challenged and the battles will feel repetitive and unexciting.
There is no simple method by which you can consult a published chart and get a perfectly balanced encounter for any given party made up of multiple characters built from hundreds of optional choices. Balancing things as a DM requires you to know what your PCs are capable of (which you seem to be paying attention to so that's a good start) and providing fitting challenges to them which means you have to know the ruler and actually think about things. Read all the rules for how combat works (there really aren't that many of them, it's like 6 pages in the PHB) and build encounters that pose a challenge to your players without being so tough to easily wipe them out.
You are mentioning two classes and three feats. Could be level 15 before this comes online. So it’s hard to say. By then, most characters are doing some crazy crap. Also, assassin rogues aren’t nearly as strong in play as they may look on paper
I will say, if you are new, don’t use UA, much of it is changed dramatically before publication. And if the players are new, they should stay away from multiclassing, if not done correctly, it can lead to ineffective characters.
And the specific gun you mention, if you are the DM, and you think it’s too much, simply don’t include it as treasure, and the character won’t have it.
If you're playing with largely new players, who you say aren't really versed in the mechanics of the game, why are you designing a "hard" campaign?
Again, you're talking about newish players and it sounds like you're doing at least one triple multi class character? What level is this campaign starting at?
Generally, giving inexperienced players powerfully built characters made to deal with "hard" encounters don't play too well in actual play because the players don't know how to play the build. You're picking subclasses for optimum power, you're slapping feats on them ... and then you hand the players the sheets. It's like giving a kid who just got their driving learners permit the keys to your Lamborghini. If you built the sheets, and the players didn't know how to build the sheets, they're not going to be well versed in the features, so either you're going to spend multiple sessions tutoring them on using their features optimally or de facto playing the characters for them.
The game defaults starts at level one for a reason. If you're playing with new players, give them the opportunity to learn how to play the game at scale before you try to ply them with power builds that the player learning curve aint' ready for.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Let the players create their own characters. It’s how they learn to play. As a dm that is not your role. Not to seem rude but you seem to be relatively new and inexperienced yourself. For example trying to use the ua revised ranger with gloomstalker. That’s a terrible idea, there are very good reasons why it is still ua years after being created. Don’t be ‘that dm’ let the players make what they want to play, and start at level 1.
I agree with MidnightPlat's statement above about difficulty and I would say, help your group make their PC's so you can guide them in their decisions on how to make a good PC for your game.
Putting new players, one with the build you are suggesting, a necromancy and monk, along with an experienced player with a coffeelock (which some DM’s ban outright) seems like it may make for a cool campaign, but just might discourage the new players when they can’t keep up.
personally I would have them all play single class characters (if the one wants to play a sniper let them go warlock and EB with Eldritch Spear invocation and flavor it as some kind of firearm). And the experienced player can help them along while playing a single class character themselves
I am letting them do what they want they just asked me to help. Im not handing them character sheets Im figuring out how to make this build good because they dont know how to make it. I only asked about the UA because I as a player powerbuild and just wanted to know whats too OP.
The campiagn is called Odyssey of the Dragonlords and is difficult but has a system built in for respawns. Its supposed to be really good and think it will he fine. Its not hard per say it just has some challenging encounters. I probably will need to reduce the enemy difficulty though.
One thing which is worth checking is how do the encounters play out in your campaign? If it's largely underground or in dense jungles or something then a sniper character might feel left out, because htey don't get to shoot anyone who's half a mile away.
I once ran a game which involved loads of constructs and elementals, as a oneshot. one of the players mentioned afterwards that half of their class features - necromancy - never came up because there were no dead things to bring back.
So if they want a sniper then fair enough, but make sure you warn them if the campaign won't suit one. Similar to if you run an intrigue game with one player who's a low intelligence and wisdom barbarian, they might have preferred some warning so they didn't make a character like that for the game!
What level are they starting at? I'd only buld them for there, and let them choose where to progress when the time comes - the best laid plans of mice & men go out of the window when you get to levelling up and everyone says "we need a healer! Who can take healing magic?"
Then I would absolutely recommend that your players think about 3 levels ahead at most. If they're new, tell them to single-class it up until level 3, where they will get subclass features, and then work off their experiences instead of planning it so far ahead. Suggest that they pick out a level 3 subclass that they like and aim for that, and not to worry about anything past level 5, because:
they might die
they might not enjoy playing that class
they might change their mind
they might choose something else to benefit the party
it can take several sessions to et to level 5, and months to get to level 15, and they need to focus on who their character is right now, not on what they will be if they survive for the next few months!
The campiagn is called Odyssey of the Dragonlords and is difficult but has a system built in for respawns. Its supposed to be really good and think it will he fine. Its not hard per say it just has some challenging encounters. I probably will need to reduce the enemy difficulty though.
I did look at a few reviews of the book and noticed it was a 3rd party product, I would ask on their forums how you might solve your questions as it seem there are quite a few unique things in the book, ie races and subclass's as well as some issues pointed out with specific classes at certain points in the campaign.
What level are they starting at? I'd only buld them for there, and let them choose where to progress when the time comes - the best laid plans of mice & men go out of the window when you get to levelling up and everyone says "we need a healer! Who can take healing magic?"
Personally I think level up time is a bit late to check if anybody knows healing word or at least brought some healers kits to reliably stabilize downed party members, but the point is valid. It's a meme how some players will scheme up (or just as often copy from a site/forum/discord/stream/vod/etc) an elaborate multiclass build that doesn't "come online" until level 12 or such and their character straight up blows chunks for the entirety of the level 1-10 campaign. To have fun, it's generally a good idea to be playing a character that's at least passingly competent at the lowest level the game starts at and then work your way up from there one level at a time. If they want to be an ambush sniper start with either Ranger into Gloomstalker or Rogue into Assassin for the first few levels to get a feel for one basic skillset before deciding on whether or not to multiclass for other abilities or continue along the path they're already on. After three levels they should have an idea as to how much they like their chosen starting class's abilities for the playstyle they're going for. Heck, by the time they get to the point of picking a subclass they might decide they like a different one than initially planned, like Hunter or Scout. Give the player some suggestions, such as checking out Rogue and Ranger as classes, then have them read the description of those classes in the PHB.
If the campaign is starting at level one, you can point them in the direction of what they think is cool. It is possible that during play they will change their mind. Because they are new players getting a handle on how to play can be a challenge in itself. Be cautious of the experienced player pressing his views on the others. It is good to get help but nobody should force anybody else to play one way over another.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Im in an odd situation and need some help figuring out what to do. Im the DM and most of the party have barly or never played D&D other than making characters with my assistance so im in a odd postion because I am figuring out the mechanics for most of the parties characters. One of these players wants to be a sniper which I think is fine. I want this build to be powerful especially because the campaign is hard. The most OP thing I can come up with based on what I have researched is PH Assassin Rogue, UA Revised Ranger with XGtE Gloom Stalker, the gun Bad News from Critical Role and the feats: Gunner, Sharpshooter and Piercer. I think this might be too OP, would all of this with PH Ranger would be better? Also the campaign goes to level 15. Thank you to anyone who answers.
Nothing is "OP" in a vacuum. Balance depends entirely on the relative power of any given PC to the other PCs and to the monsters, NPCs, or other enemies you plan to throw against them. An Assassin/Gloomstalker build is an ambusher that can do a lot of damage to single targets when they surprise their enemies and act first in combat. On top of that you're looking at a powerful, long range weapon which is awesome as long as enemies can't hit back but decidedly less so against multiple enemies surrounding and attacking them in melee.
If the rest of the party compliments this character by being similarly good at other things then that will balance them among the party. Other range focused characters, melee tanks that can hold enemies at bay, and/or ones with control abilities such as movement impairing spells will compliment such a character and give everybody something valuable to do. A sniper character is going to want chances to perch at a distance to make the best use of their abilities; the player will likely get frustrated in a "classic" dungeon crawl where evey combat takes place in enclosed spaces at ranges where enemies can easily close to melee with them in a single round but if you constantly give them perfectly secure positions to attack their foes from long range they aren't going to be challenged and the battles will feel repetitive and unexciting.
There is no simple method by which you can consult a published chart and get a perfectly balanced encounter for any given party made up of multiple characters built from hundreds of optional choices. Balancing things as a DM requires you to know what your PCs are capable of (which you seem to be paying attention to so that's a good start) and providing fitting challenges to them which means you have to know the ruler and actually think about things. Read all the rules for how combat works (there really aren't that many of them, it's like 6 pages in the PHB) and build encounters that pose a challenge to your players without being so tough to easily wipe them out.
You are mentioning two classes and three feats. Could be level 15 before this comes online. So it’s hard to say. By then, most characters are doing some crazy crap. Also, assassin rogues aren’t nearly as strong in play as they may look on paper
I will say, if you are new, don’t use UA, much of it is changed dramatically before publication. And if the players are new, they should stay away from multiclassing, if not done correctly, it can lead to ineffective characters.
And the specific gun you mention, if you are the DM, and you think it’s too much, simply don’t include it as treasure, and the character won’t have it.
Im not really sure what is too much. I guess Ill figure it out, thanks for the reaponse.
The party is currently a coffeelocking Hexblade, the sniper, a necromancer and possibly a Monk. The Hexblade is a experienced player so that helps.
Two questions:
If you're playing with largely new players, who you say aren't really versed in the mechanics of the game, why are you designing a "hard" campaign?
Again, you're talking about newish players and it sounds like you're doing at least one triple multi class character? What level is this campaign starting at?
Generally, giving inexperienced players powerfully built characters made to deal with "hard" encounters don't play too well in actual play because the players don't know how to play the build. You're picking subclasses for optimum power, you're slapping feats on them ... and then you hand the players the sheets. It's like giving a kid who just got their driving learners permit the keys to your Lamborghini. If you built the sheets, and the players didn't know how to build the sheets, they're not going to be well versed in the features, so either you're going to spend multiple sessions tutoring them on using their features optimally or de facto playing the characters for them.
The game defaults starts at level one for a reason. If you're playing with new players, give them the opportunity to learn how to play the game at scale before you try to ply them with power builds that the player learning curve aint' ready for.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Let the players create their own characters. It’s how they learn to play. As a dm that is not your role. Not to seem rude but you seem to be relatively new and inexperienced yourself. For example trying to use the ua revised ranger with gloomstalker. That’s a terrible idea, there are very good reasons why it is still ua years after being created. Don’t be ‘that dm’ let the players make what they want to play, and start at level 1.
I agree with MidnightPlat's statement above about difficulty and I would say, help your group make their PC's so you can guide them in their decisions on how to make a good PC for your game.
Putting new players, one with the build you are suggesting, a necromancy and monk, along with an experienced player with a coffeelock (which some DM’s ban outright) seems like it may make for a cool campaign, but just might discourage the new players when they can’t keep up.
personally I would have them all play single class characters (if the one wants to play a sniper let them go warlock and EB with Eldritch Spear invocation and flavor it as some kind of firearm). And the experienced player can help them along while playing a single class character themselves
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I am letting them do what they want they just asked me to help. Im not handing them character sheets Im figuring out how to make this build good because they dont know how to make it. I only asked about the UA because I as a player powerbuild and just wanted to know whats too OP.
I am, Im just figuring way for the build to be good because I was asked to.
The campiagn is called Odyssey of the Dragonlords and is difficult but has a system built in for respawns. Its supposed to be really good and think it will he fine. Its not hard per say it just has some challenging encounters. I probably will need to reduce the enemy difficulty though.
One thing which is worth checking is how do the encounters play out in your campaign? If it's largely underground or in dense jungles or something then a sniper character might feel left out, because htey don't get to shoot anyone who's half a mile away.
I once ran a game which involved loads of constructs and elementals, as a oneshot. one of the players mentioned afterwards that half of their class features - necromancy - never came up because there were no dead things to bring back.
So if they want a sniper then fair enough, but make sure you warn them if the campaign won't suit one. Similar to if you run an intrigue game with one player who's a low intelligence and wisdom barbarian, they might have preferred some warning so they didn't make a character like that for the game!
What level are they starting at? I'd only buld them for there, and let them choose where to progress when the time comes - the best laid plans of mice & men go out of the window when you get to levelling up and everyone says "we need a healer! Who can take healing magic?"
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
It runs from level 1-15.
Then I would absolutely recommend that your players think about 3 levels ahead at most. If they're new, tell them to single-class it up until level 3, where they will get subclass features, and then work off their experiences instead of planning it so far ahead. Suggest that they pick out a level 3 subclass that they like and aim for that, and not to worry about anything past level 5, because:
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
I did look at a few reviews of the book and noticed it was a 3rd party product, I would ask on their forums how you might solve your questions as it seem there are quite a few unique things in the book, ie races and subclass's as well as some issues pointed out with specific classes at certain points in the campaign.
Good Luck
I know its a 3rd party book and that it has homebrew classes and races. Its was made by old Bioware devs, ones who worked on KOTOR, Baldurs Gate etc.
Personally I think level up time is a bit late to check if anybody knows healing word or at least brought some healers kits to reliably stabilize downed party members, but the point is valid. It's a meme how some players will scheme up (or just as often copy from a site/forum/discord/stream/vod/etc) an elaborate multiclass build that doesn't "come online" until level 12 or such and their character straight up blows chunks for the entirety of the level 1-10 campaign. To have fun, it's generally a good idea to be playing a character that's at least passingly competent at the lowest level the game starts at and then work your way up from there one level at a time. If they want to be an ambush sniper start with either Ranger into Gloomstalker or Rogue into Assassin for the first few levels to get a feel for one basic skillset before deciding on whether or not to multiclass for other abilities or continue along the path they're already on. After three levels they should have an idea as to how much they like their chosen starting class's abilities for the playstyle they're going for. Heck, by the time they get to the point of picking a subclass they might decide they like a different one than initially planned, like Hunter or Scout. Give the player some suggestions, such as checking out Rogue and Ranger as classes, then have them read the description of those classes in the PHB.
If the campaign is starting at level one, you can point them in the direction of what they think is cool. It is possible that during play they will change their mind. Because they are new players getting a handle on how to play can be a challenge in itself. Be cautious of the experienced player pressing his views on the others. It is good to get help but nobody should force anybody else to play one way over another.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Thanks.