Quote from Golaryn>>Just like when we went from 1e to 2e and then to 3e and again with 3.5 and so on and so on, the old books are phased out in favor of the new.
Agreed, I wish WotC did not get rid of old books just because new ones came out. It's unfair to D&D fans and players who spent there money on Volo's and Mordenkainens (see my reasons here). I'm quite dissapointed that Wizards did this.
I could use the homebrew feature but at least for me that is quite clunky and it sort of feels like cheating(? like I am not paying for the thing I am getting). Thank you for any responses.
It's pretty much accepted that people do that as long as you do not try to publish them as your homebrew. V2blast (a moderator) said as much on this thread.
Would it be less unfair if a new player bought MToF and VGtM and MMM and then realized they could have only bought MMM to have all those monsters? I don’t think so. And you know it would happen no matter how they labeled them (Legacy or anything else) just like people post complaints about purchasing hero tier and then realizing it doesn’t give them all the books for free. Even though hero tier subscription doesn’t say it gives them that.
yes, the older books will still be compatible with the “Next Evolution” in 2024 but would you have WotC release absolutely no content until then so they can make a clean switch? Or keep selling and releasing old content so the book you spend $50 on in December of 2023 becomes a $50 door stop as soon as 2024 hits?
There is still lots of lore in Volo's and Modenkainen's that never made it into M3. If people put a "reused content" label on M3, or more likely explain in Vgtm and Mtof item description about it, then it would stop most new players from buying both.
This is not less unfair or more unfair then the other problem we mentioned. This problem could also have easily have been avoided if M3 was never printed, but that's just another problem it's print has caused.
Just because Wizards put themselves in this position doesn't mean they have to delist the books on DDB, they could have just as easily kept them up.
The whole point of M3 and what’s coming in 2024 is NOT having setting specific lore. That’s why it was printed.
And which would you prefer. WotC continue to release content following current 5E design philosophy and taking your money up until the 2024 release. Then say “thanks for the money, now your books are out of date” and go to a new edition.
Or not publish M3 (or possibly Tasha’s since that’s where these changes started) and release absolutely no content until the new edition comes out so we have 2+ years of nothing.
Those seem the only two options if they didn’t tell players a new edition is coming down the road and then start releasing content that will be compliant with the new edition.
Everything prior to Tasha is being updated, and as things get updated the old rules are no longer needed. We are effectively in the 5.5 era of 5th Ed, only they haven't made it official that it's 5.5 edition.
This whole thread is a good example as to why "stealthing" in an edition change is a bad idea.
Tasha's is the point in which the game changed enough for some people to see the difference and now more are starting to see it with the drop of MMM. Volo's and Mordy's did not fit with the next phase of the game and is no longer supported. Just like when we went from 1e to 2e and then to 3e and again with 3.5 and so on and so on, the old books are phased out in favor of the new.
It really is just that simple. I am not looking forward to 18 more months of this.
There are only three options and a slow, rolling release of new content is the best of the options.
The first option is to never change editions - that mat very well be what Wizards is aiming for, something with a low barrier to initial entry but a depth of content. It’s not quite there yet - as evidenced by the changes Wizards is making to streamline DMing. Wizards is certainly aware that the perceived difficulty of DMing tends to be the biggest barrier to entry, since the potential DM to player ratio is incredibly skewed toward players.
The second option is to do a 3.5 to 4e change - “here is a new edition; enjoy having a dearth of content while you wait for us to expand slowly beyond the PHB/DMG/MM.” That is not a great system either - it means you have a bunch of angry old players upset that none of their content is useful and a bunch of new and old players who are upset over a lack of content in the most current edition.
Slow rollouts mean content that is unlikely to be reprinted or reprinted anytime soon (Magic content, Eberron, Stranger Things, etc.) all remain relevant for a long period of time. Wizards can move closer to the ideal version of D&D, while, at the same time, ensuring that older content remains relevant until it too can be replaced. You have all the depth of an older edition with all the advancement of a new “edition” conveniently together in a system that is backwards comparable.
So, given the reality that the game will continue to evolve and thus the first option is off the table, it’s silly to think “I don’t want a slow rollout” - the only alternative would be worse.
Option 1 is not an option so shouldn't have been listed in the first place.
Option 2 is how it has been done for every previous edition
Option 3 is what they are doing now, but it is the first time it has been done this way. So far it has created a lot of confusion and frustration for a significant portion of the player base (I am not saying all or even most) and that is the issue at hand. There is already a divide in the player base with some playing 5e and some playing 5ePT (Post Tasha's) so it is time to accept that keeping the name 5e is not going to fool everyone into thinking that it is the same edition.
And just so we are clear, I am playing 5ePT and looking forward to 2024.
The big issue you are failing to see, as to why the slow ever changing game with updates and new books replacing specific books only. Is that you never truly loose content. From 1st & 2nd to third D&D lost almost 20 years of content, modules, story, classes, and other content, they had to rebuild most of it from ground up, the same was true from 3rd to 4th and again from 4th to 5th. Still one of the better dragon lore books and Forgotten Realms lore books is now lost to 4th edition. So by doing a slow burn, with rules updating books and stop selling of outdated books, they can keep an ever growing library of content, they can always sell adventures, and never have to reboot everything again from scratch. DMs don't have to restart their collects either. Something that annoyed me when 3rd came out, as I had a trunk full of books that were no longer valid. I only purchased a few books in 3rd because of it, and 4th suffered the same due to the investment people had in 3.5. Pathfinder on the other hand wants to see D&D publish a 6th edition, as it would improve their sales.
Quote from Golaryn>>Just like when we went from 1e to 2e and then to 3e and again with 3.5 and so on and so on, the old books are phased out in favor of the new.
Agreed, I wish WotC did not get rid of old books just because new ones came out. It's unfair to D&D fans and players who spent there money on Volo's and Mordenkainens (see my reasons here). I'm quite dissapointed that Wizards did this.
I could use the homebrew feature but at least for me that is quite clunky and it sort of feels like cheating(? like I am not paying for the thing I am getting). Thank you for any responses.
It's pretty much accepted that people do that as long as you do not try to publish them as your homebrew. V2blast (a moderator) said as much on this thread.
Would it be less unfair if a new player bought MToF and VGtM and MMM and then realized they could have only bought MMM to have all those monsters? I don’t think so. And you know it would happen no matter how they labeled them (Legacy or anything else) just like people post complaints about purchasing hero tier and then realizing it doesn’t give them all the books for free. Even though hero tier subscription doesn’t say it gives them that.
yes, the older books will still be compatible with the “Next Evolution” in 2024 but would you have WotC release absolutely no content until then so they can make a clean switch? Or keep selling and releasing old content so the book you spend $50 on in December of 2023 becomes a $50 door stop as soon as 2024 hits?
There is still lots of lore in Volo's and Modenkainen's that never made it into M3. If people put a "reused content" label on M3, or more likely explain in Vgtm and Mtof item description about it, then it would stop most new players from buying both.
This is not less unfair or more unfair then the other problem we mentioned. This problem could also have easily have been avoided if M3 was never printed, but that's just another problem it's print has caused.
Just because Wizards put themselves in this position doesn't mean they have to delist the books on DDB, they could have just as easily kept them up.
The whole point of M3 and what’s coming in 2024 is NOT having setting specific lore. That’s why it was printed.
And which would you prefer. WotC continue to release content following current 5E design philosophy and taking your money up until the 2024 release. Then say “thanks for the money, now your books are out of date” and go to a new edition.
Or not publish M3 (or possibly Tasha’s since that’s where these changes started) and release absolutely no content until the new edition comes out so we have 2+ years of nothing.
Those seem the only two options if they didn’t tell players a new edition is coming down the road and then start releasing content that will be compliant with the new edition.
Fair points, I think Wizards could make new books with new content that start the conversion to the next edition. They could also update Volo's and Mordenkainen's with many of the changes made in M3 on DDB and the new print editions too, this would cause a few problems though.
PS. Sorry Golaryn, I misunderstood what you had said.
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This whole thread is a good example as to why "stealthing" in an edition change is a bad idea.
Tasha's is the point in which the game changed enough for some people to see the difference and now more are starting to see it with the drop of MMM. Volo's and Mordy's did not fit with the next phase of the game and is no longer supported. Just like when we went from 1e to 2e and then to 3e and again with 3.5 and so on and so on, the old books are phased out in favor of the new.
It really is just that simple. I am not looking forward to 18 more months of this.
There are only three options and a slow, rolling release of new content is the best of the options.
The first option is to never change editions - that mat very well be what Wizards is aiming for, something with a low barrier to initial entry but a depth of content. It’s not quite there yet - as evidenced by the changes Wizards is making to streamline DMing. Wizards is certainly aware that the perceived difficulty of DMing tends to be the biggest barrier to entry, since the potential DM to player ratio is incredibly skewed toward players.
The second option is to do a 3.5 to 4e change - “here is a new edition; enjoy having a dearth of content while you wait for us to expand slowly beyond the PHB/DMG/MM.” That is not a great system either - it means you have a bunch of angry old players upset that none of their content is useful and a bunch of new and old players who are upset over a lack of content in the most current edition.
Slow rollouts mean content that is unlikely to be reprinted or reprinted anytime soon (Magic content, Eberron, Stranger Things, etc.) all remain relevant for a long period of time. Wizards can move closer to the ideal version of D&D, while, at the same time, ensuring that older content remains relevant until it too can be replaced. You have all the depth of an older edition with all the advancement of a new “edition” conveniently together in a system that is backwards comparable.
So, given the reality that the game will continue to evolve and thus the first option is off the table, it’s silly to think “I don’t want a slow rollout” - the only alternative would be worse.
Option 1 is not an option so shouldn't have been listed in the first place.
Option 2 is how it has been done for every previous edition
Option 3 is what they are doing now, but it is the first time it has been done this way. So far it has created a lot of confusion and frustration for a significant portion of the player base (I am not saying all or even most) and that is the issue at hand. There is already a divide in the player base with some playing 5e and some playing 5ePT (Post Tasha's) so it is time to accept that keeping the name 5e is not going to fool everyone into thinking that it is the same edition.
And just so we are clear, I am playing 5ePT and looking forward to 2024.
The big issue you are failing to see, as to why the slow ever changing game with updates and new books replacing specific books only. Is that you never truly loose content. From 1st & 2nd to third D&D lost almost 20 years of content, modules, story, classes, and other content, they had to rebuild most of it from ground up, the same was true from 3rd to 4th and again from 4th to 5th. Still one of the better dragon lore books and Forgotten Realms lore books is now lost to 4th edition. So by doing a slow burn, with rules updating books and stop selling of outdated books, they can keep an ever growing library of content, they can always sell adventures, and never have to reboot everything again from scratch. DMs don't have to restart their collects either. Something that annoyed me when 3rd came out, as I had a trunk full of books that were no longer valid. I only purchased a few books in 3rd because of it, and 4th suffered the same due to the investment people had in 3.5. Pathfinder on the other hand wants to see D&D publish a 6th edition, as it would improve their sales.
I don't think the anti MMM crowd would agree with you on the never loose content part. Volos and Mord's and the lore that they contained is now "lost content" as it was not replaced in the pages of MMM and they are no longer available for purchase on this site. Books that are current will eventually be phased out and that information cannibalized for future books. That is exactly what happened with Volo's and Mordy's. Also, I don't know if you are aware of this, but there is an extremely high chance of getting new versions of the Core 3 in 2024, which means that you WILL have to replace your current books if you wish to continue playing the latest version of D&D, what ever it may be called. It really isn't that different from previous edition changes, they are just releasing content for the "new edition" ahead of time.
I don't really have a problem with it. WotC has been dropping hints for the past couple years that this was what was happening, I just wish they would come out and say it clear enough for everyone to understand so that we get fewer threads like this one that is confused as to why they can't buy these books any more.
This whole thread is a good example as to why "stealthing" in an edition change is a bad idea.
Tasha's is the point in which the game changed enough for some people to see the difference and now more are starting to see it with the drop of MMM. Volo's and Mordy's did not fit with the next phase of the game and is no longer supported. Just like when we went from 1e to 2e and then to 3e and again with 3.5 and so on and so on, the old books are phased out in favor of the new.
It really is just that simple. I am not looking forward to 18 more months of this.
There are only three options and a slow, rolling release of new content is the best of the options.
The first option is to never change editions - that mat very well be what Wizards is aiming for, something with a low barrier to initial entry but a depth of content. It’s not quite there yet - as evidenced by the changes Wizards is making to streamline DMing. Wizards is certainly aware that the perceived difficulty of DMing tends to be the biggest barrier to entry, since the potential DM to player ratio is incredibly skewed toward players.
The second option is to do a 3.5 to 4e change - “here is a new edition; enjoy having a dearth of content while you wait for us to expand slowly beyond the PHB/DMG/MM.” That is not a great system either - it means you have a bunch of angry old players upset that none of their content is useful and a bunch of new and old players who are upset over a lack of content in the most current edition.
Slow rollouts mean content that is unlikely to be reprinted or reprinted anytime soon (Magic content, Eberron, Stranger Things, etc.) all remain relevant for a long period of time. Wizards can move closer to the ideal version of D&D, while, at the same time, ensuring that older content remains relevant until it too can be replaced. You have all the depth of an older edition with all the advancement of a new “edition” conveniently together in a system that is backwards comparable.
So, given the reality that the game will continue to evolve and thus the first option is off the table, it’s silly to think “I don’t want a slow rollout” - the only alternative would be worse.
Option 1 is not an option so shouldn't have been listed in the first place.
Option 2 is how it has been done for every previous edition
Option 3 is what they are doing now, but it is the first time it has been done this way. So far it has created a lot of confusion and frustration for a significant portion of the player base (I am not saying all or even most) and that is the issue at hand. There is already a divide in the player base with some playing 5e and some playing 5ePT (Post Tasha's) so it is time to accept that keeping the name 5e is not going to fool everyone into thinking that it is the same edition.
And just so we are clear, I am playing 5ePT and looking forward to 2024.
The big issue you are failing to see, as to why the slow ever changing game with updates and new books replacing specific books only. Is that you never truly loose content. From 1st & 2nd to third D&D lost almost 20 years of content, modules, story, classes, and other content, they had to rebuild most of it from ground up, the same was true from 3rd to 4th and again from 4th to 5th. Still one of the better dragon lore books and Forgotten Realms lore books is now lost to 4th edition. So by doing a slow burn, with rules updating books and stop selling of outdated books, they can keep an ever growing library of content, they can always sell adventures, and never have to reboot everything again from scratch. DMs don't have to restart their collects either. Something that annoyed me when 3rd came out, as I had a trunk full of books that were no longer valid. I only purchased a few books in 3rd because of it, and 4th suffered the same due to the investment people had in 3.5. Pathfinder on the other hand wants to see D&D publish a 6th edition, as it would improve their sales.
I don't think the anti MMM crowd would agree with you on the never loose content part. Volos and Mord's and the lore that they contained is now "lost content" as it was not replaced in the pages of MMM and they are no longer available for purchase on this site. Books that are current will eventually be phased out and that information cannibalized for future books. That is exactly what happened with Volo's and Mordy's. Also, I don't know if you are aware of this, but there is an extremely high chance of getting new versions of the Core 3 in 2024, which means that you WILL have to replace your current books if you wish to continue playing the latest version of D&D, what ever it may be called. It really isn't that different from previous edition changes, they are just releasing content for the "new edition" ahead of time.
I don't really have a problem with it. WotC has been dropping hints for the past couple years that this was what was happening, I just wish they would come out and say it clear enough for everyone to understand so that we get fewer threads like this one that is confused as to why they can't buy these books any more.
Yeah, we lost a lot of lore content from VGtM and MToF. However, I do understand your guys points on phasing out and modifying being better than fully losing the content.
The more I think about it, the more I agree with Golaryn, I had no idea the books would be delisted. If Wizards had said that when they released VGtM or MToF it would have gone a lot better with people like me. I also think it came as a surprise to people who like the books and the game, but don't follow Wizards actions and moves, as I did not do until I recently started going on the forums a bunch.
This thread has really changed my stubborn perspective (at least somewhat) on this, thank you guys.
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You are going to get a lot of “malice on Wizards’ part” answers on these forums - there’s a lot of folks really angry over the changes and therefore have decided to assume the worst of Wizards.
The simple reality: They are redundant products, with MMM already giving you access to the “current” version of the all the mechanical content of the prior books. Having redundant content is bad business - it is confusing for new players who might not understand that a “legacy” tab means “you might have already bought this content” (and thus upset players who do not know they bought the content twice) and, especially now with printing costs being so high, it would be expensive to keep superseded books in circulation, with diminishing returns as folks will be more inclined to purchase the most recent version.
There isn’t any malice in the decision - it’s just the simple and best business practice to discontinue the older volumes.
Exactly! Plus if they were still for sale, people would complain that they were scamming customers because they were selling "outdated" content.
Although the books are still for sale, I had an additional issue here, I own the physical books, I also bought MMM, but, I feel sorry for those new to the world of DND who have now lost out on the lore presented in those 2 books.
Although the books are still for sale, I had an additional issue here, I own the physical books, I also bought MMM, but, I feel sorry for those new to the world of DND who have now lost out on the lore presented in those 2 books.
Having just looked back and skimmed the lore... I firmly endorse dropping it from MMM. Most of it is just plain boring.
So, currently published D&D stuff will reflect new rules? Since Tashas's Cauldron and now clearly the case with MMM? Are you guys implying that new 5e rules already exist?
Although the books are still for sale, I had an additional issue here, I own the physical books, I also bought MMM, but, I feel sorry for those new to the world of DND who have now lost out on the lore presented in those 2 books.
Having just looked back and skimmed the lore... I firmly endorse dropping it from MMM. Most of it is just plain boring.
To you but to someone brand new to DMing, it is a starting point. In 20+ years of playing TTRPGs, most of them DMing, I hadn’t touched dnd until about 4/5 years ago or so, I had no interest in the lore during those years so the lore sections if those 2 books gave me a nice little intro to some intrestibg ideas. The fall of the dark elves, the Duregar, Gith, the blood war, the giant dragon war. Some things I read and could see where the source came from, others I read and really liked as a concept I could tweak and change.
It is a great primer for anyone coming into dnd first, easy to read and absorb in a short amount of time, with enough space to play with and change to suit a homebrew setting. Or to go off and find deeper information as required.
So, currently published D&D stuff will reflect new rules? Since Tashas's Cauldron and now clearly the case with MMM? Are you guys implying that new 5e rules already exist?
In a way, yes. There is a difference in both character race and monster design. We have also seen a change in the way Subclasses are designed as well. We are seeing a shift away from short rest mechanics for example. In the latest UA's and in a recently published book, we have seen a change in Backgrounds and their place in character creation. While each change is subtle, it is impactful and when put together you get the effect that we saw from the switch from 3e to 3.5e. In just over a year and a half, we will see the full change take place with new Core Rule Books. The change is happening a little at a time, but you can see it.
Although the books are still for sale, I had an additional issue here, I own the physical books, I also bought MMM, but, I feel sorry for those new to the world of DND who have now lost out on the lore presented in those 2 books.
Having just looked back and skimmed the lore... I firmly endorse dropping it from MMM. Most of it is just plain boring.
To you but to someone brand new to DMing, it is a starting point. In 20+ years of playing TTRPGs, most of them DMing, I hadn’t touched dnd until about 4/5 years ago or so, I had no interest in the lore during those years so the lore sections if those 2 books gave me a nice little intro to some intrestibg ideas. The fall of the dark elves, the Duregar, Gith, the blood war, the giant dragon war.
I notice you completely left out all the stuff about surface elves, and 'regular' dwarves, and gnomes, and halflings. There's seeds of interesting stuff, but it's mired in an awful lot of boring verbiage.
So, currently published D&D stuff will reflect new rules? Since Tashas's Cauldron and now clearly the case with MMM? Are you guys implying that new 5e rules already exist?
In a way, yes. There is a difference in both character race and monster design. We have also seen a change in the way Subclasses are designed as well. We are seeing a shift away from short rest mechanics for example. In the latest UA's and in a recently published book, we have seen a change in Backgrounds and their place in character creation. While each change is subtle, it is impactful and when put together you get the effect that we saw from the switch from 3e to 3.5e. In just over a year and a half, we will see the full change take place with new Core Rule Books. The change is happening a little at a time, but you can see it.
Coolio, thx. Fascinating that there's already a direction for future content that will have to connect to a new Player's Handbook, DMG, and Monster Manual. Rumoured to come around 2024? There's the movie, et al, etc. What do peeps call it? 5e+ ... ;p
So, currently published D&D stuff will reflect new rules? Since Tashas's Cauldron and now clearly the case with MMM? Are you guys implying that new 5e rules already exist?
In a way, yes. There is a difference in both character race and monster design. We have also seen a change in the way Subclasses are designed as well. We are seeing a shift away from short rest mechanics for example. In the latest UA's and in a recently published book, we have seen a change in Backgrounds and their place in character creation. While each change is subtle, it is impactful and when put together you get the effect that we saw from the switch from 3e to 3.5e. In just over a year and a half, we will see the full change take place with new Core Rule Books. The change is happening a little at a time, but you can see it.
Coolio, thx. Fascinating that there's already a direction for future content that will have to connect to a new Player's Handbook, DMG, and Monster Manual. Rumoured to come around 2024? There's the movie, et al, etc. What do peeps call it? 5e+ ... ;p
I actually would not be surprised if it were actually called 5e+ lol
I don't think the anti MMM crowd would agree with you on the never loose content part. Volos and Mord's and the lore that they contained is now "lost content" as it was not replaced in the pages of MMM and they are no longer available for purchase on this site. Books that are current will eventually be phased out and that information cannibalized for future books. That is exactly what happened with Volo's and Mordy's. Also, I don't know if you are aware of this, but there is an extremely high chance of getting new versions of the Core 3 in 2024, which means that you WILL have to replace your current books if you wish to continue playing the latest version of D&D, what ever it may be called. It really isn't that different from previous edition changes, they are just releasing content for the "new edition" ahead of time.
I don't really have a problem with it. WotC has been dropping hints for the past couple years that this was what was happening, I just wish they would come out and say it clear enough for everyone to understand so that we get fewer threads like this one that is confused as to why they can't buy these books any more.
I don't think you get it, I've watched this happen 3 times before with D&D, since I first played in Jr High in 1985. I saw rule resets from 1st to 2nd, 2nd to 2.5 (It was minor, but they did cut content from AD&D to publish the 2.5 books) then again they erased 20 years of Lore and Rules with 3.0, and then proceeded to Update it to 3.5, then 4.0 had some great lore books and terrible gameplay, now we are here, 37 years of me playing and DMing D&D. Watching the cycle happen again. I'm not upset or concerned one bit, if they do what It looks like they are doing, adding updates and rules, deactivating old books for updated rules, leaving my Lore books I currently own alone, great, because I'm still kind of pissed about all the lore that got changed from AD&D to 3rd, I'm annoyed that they didn't include all the dragon lore from the past generations in 4th, I miss all the lost knowledge and lore when they switched to 5th. I have 3 full tall bookshelves of D&D, full of lore and content, that has been ignored now for 25 or more years. So what they are doing this time, is much better IMO.
Although the books are still for sale, I had an additional issue here, I own the physical books, I also bought MMM, but, I feel sorry for those new to the world of DND who have now lost out on the lore presented in those 2 books.
Having just looked back and skimmed the lore... I firmly endorse dropping it from MMM. Most of it is just plain boring.
To you but to someone brand new to DMing, it is a starting point. In 20+ years of playing TTRPGs, most of them DMing, I hadn’t touched dnd until about 4/5 years ago or so, I had no interest in the lore during those years so the lore sections if those 2 books gave me a nice little intro to some intrestibg ideas. The fall of the dark elves, the Duregar, Gith, the blood war, the giant dragon war.
I notice you completely left out all the stuff about surface elves, and 'regular' dwarves, and gnomes, and halflings. There's seeds of interesting stuff, but it's mired in an awful lot of boring verbiage.
I love a lot of the lore. And it actually was quite useful and interesting to me, especially the part on hags.
I don't think the anti MMM crowd would agree with you on the never loose content part. Volos and Mord's and the lore that they contained is now "lost content" as it was not replaced in the pages of MMM and they are no longer available for purchase on this site. Books that are current will eventually be phased out and that information cannibalized for future books. That is exactly what happened with Volo's and Mordy's. Also, I don't know if you are aware of this, but there is an extremely high chance of getting new versions of the Core 3 in 2024, which means that you WILL have to replace your current books if you wish to continue playing the latest version of D&D, what ever it may be called. It really isn't that different from previous edition changes, they are just releasing content for the "new edition" ahead of time.
I don't really have a problem with it. WotC has been dropping hints for the past couple years that this was what was happening, I just wish they would come out and say it clear enough for everyone to understand so that we get fewer threads like this one that is confused as to why they can't buy these books any more.
I don't think you get it, I've watched this happen 3 times before with D&D, since I first played in Jr High in 1985. I saw rule resets from 1st to 2nd, 2nd to 2.5 (It was minor, but they did cut content from AD&D to publish the 2.5 books) then again they erased 20 years of Lore and Rules with 3.0, and then proceeded to Update it to 3.5, then 4.0 had some great lore books and terrible gameplay, now we are here, 37 years of me playing and DMing D&D. Watching the cycle happen again. I'm not upset or concerned one bit, if they do what It looks like they are doing, adding updates and rules, deactivating old books for updated rules, leaving my Lore books I currently own alone, great, because I'm still kind of pissed about all the lore that got changed from AD&D to 3rd, I'm annoyed that they didn't include all the dragon lore from the past generations in 4th, I miss all the lost knowledge and lore when they switched to 5th. I have 3 full tall bookshelves of D&D, full of lore and content, that has been ignored now for 25 or more years. So what they are doing this time, is much better IMO.
You aren't the only one here with more than 3 decades of experience. What don't I get? I really don't know what you are trying argue here.
Are you trying to say that the lore presented in Volo's and Mordy's will never again be revisited in future books and that lore will remain forever green and unchanged some how?
I don't think the anti MMM crowd would agree with you on the never loose content part. Volos and Mord's and the lore that they contained is now "lost content" as it was not replaced in the pages of MMM and they are no longer available for purchase on this site. Books that are current will eventually be phased out and that information cannibalized for future books. That is exactly what happened with Volo's and Mordy's. Also, I don't know if you are aware of this, but there is an extremely high chance of getting new versions of the Core 3 in 2024, which means that you WILL have to replace your current books if you wish to continue playing the latest version of D&D, what ever it may be called. It really isn't that different from previous edition changes, they are just releasing content for the "new edition" ahead of time.
I don't really have a problem with it. WotC has been dropping hints for the past couple years that this was what was happening, I just wish they would come out and say it clear enough for everyone to understand so that we get fewer threads like this one that is confused as to why they can't buy these books any more.
I don't think you get it, I've watched this happen 3 times before with D&D, since I first played in Jr High in 1985. I saw rule resets from 1st to 2nd, 2nd to 2.5 (It was minor, but they did cut content from AD&D to publish the 2.5 books) then again they erased 20 years of Lore and Rules with 3.0, and then proceeded to Update it to 3.5, then 4.0 had some great lore books and terrible gameplay, now we are here, 37 years of me playing and DMing D&D. Watching the cycle happen again. I'm not upset or concerned one bit, if they do what It looks like they are doing, adding updates and rules, deactivating old books for updated rules, leaving my Lore books I currently own alone, great, because I'm still kind of pissed about all the lore that got changed from AD&D to 3rd, I'm annoyed that they didn't include all the dragon lore from the past generations in 4th, I miss all the lost knowledge and lore when they switched to 5th. I have 3 full tall bookshelves of D&D, full of lore and content, that has been ignored now for 25 or more years. So what they are doing this time, is much better IMO.
I also played back in the 80’s in 1E. And yes, MMM, and the game going forward, is removing lore from race/monsters. But this now gives you, or other DM’s the ability to use whatever lore you want with 2024’s version. If you prefer 4E’s lore go ahead and use it.
I think it is more fitting for lore to be contained in Setting books or determined by the DM in their homebrew setting.
But maybe I’m not as invested in the lore of a campaign setting that I’m not actually playing in.
Edit: And I have a feeling that MMM, and to a lesser extent Tasha’s, may actually be the first books released that is 2024 compliant and won’t need to be abandoned and rereleased under a different name.
Edit: And I have a feeling that MMM, and to a lesser extent Tasha’s, may actually be the first books released that is 2024 compliant and won’t need to be abandoned and rereleased under a different name.
I think this is mostly true, but I think that things like the optional class features and such from Tasha's will be rolled into the new PHB as just part of the classes, while the subclasses and stuff will remain separate. Obviously the race changes of Tasha's and MMM will be in the PHB as well.
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She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
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The whole point of M3 and what’s coming in 2024 is NOT having setting specific lore. That’s why it was printed.
And which would you prefer. WotC continue to release content following current 5E design philosophy and taking your money up until the 2024 release. Then say “thanks for the money, now your books are out of date” and go to a new edition.
Or not publish M3 (or possibly Tasha’s since that’s where these changes started) and release absolutely no content until the new edition comes out so we have 2+ years of nothing.
Those seem the only two options if they didn’t tell players a new edition is coming down the road and then start releasing content that will be compliant with the new edition.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Everything prior to Tasha is being updated, and as things get updated the old rules are no longer needed. We are effectively in the 5.5 era of 5th Ed, only they haven't made it official that it's 5.5 edition.
The big issue you are failing to see, as to why the slow ever changing game with updates and new books replacing specific books only. Is that you never truly loose content. From 1st & 2nd to third D&D lost almost 20 years of content, modules, story, classes, and other content, they had to rebuild most of it from ground up, the same was true from 3rd to 4th and again from 4th to 5th. Still one of the better dragon lore books and Forgotten Realms lore books is now lost to 4th edition. So by doing a slow burn, with rules updating books and stop selling of outdated books, they can keep an ever growing library of content, they can always sell adventures, and never have to reboot everything again from scratch. DMs don't have to restart their collects either. Something that annoyed me when 3rd came out, as I had a trunk full of books that were no longer valid. I only purchased a few books in 3rd because of it, and 4th suffered the same due to the investment people had in 3.5. Pathfinder on the other hand wants to see D&D publish a 6th edition, as it would improve their sales.
Fair points, I think Wizards could make new books with new content that start the conversion to the next edition. They could also update Volo's and Mordenkainen's with many of the changes made in M3 on DDB and the new print editions too, this would cause a few problems though.
PS. Sorry Golaryn, I misunderstood what you had said.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.I don't think the anti MMM crowd would agree with you on the never loose content part. Volos and Mord's and the lore that they contained is now "lost content" as it was not replaced in the pages of MMM and they are no longer available for purchase on this site. Books that are current will eventually be phased out and that information cannibalized for future books. That is exactly what happened with Volo's and Mordy's. Also, I don't know if you are aware of this, but there is an extremely high chance of getting new versions of the Core 3 in 2024, which means that you WILL have to replace your current books if you wish to continue playing the latest version of D&D, what ever it may be called. It really isn't that different from previous edition changes, they are just releasing content for the "new edition" ahead of time.
I don't really have a problem with it. WotC has been dropping hints for the past couple years that this was what was happening, I just wish they would come out and say it clear enough for everyone to understand so that we get fewer threads like this one that is confused as to why they can't buy these books any more.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Yeah, we lost a lot of lore content from VGtM and MToF. However, I do understand your guys points on phasing out and modifying being better than fully losing the content.
The more I think about it, the more I agree with Golaryn, I had no idea the books would be delisted. If Wizards had said that when they released VGtM or MToF it would have gone a lot better with people like me. I also think it came as a surprise to people who like the books and the game, but don't follow Wizards actions and moves, as I did not do until I recently started going on the forums a bunch.
This thread has really changed my stubborn perspective (at least somewhat) on this, thank you guys.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Although the books are still for sale, I had an additional issue here, I own the physical books, I also bought MMM, but, I feel sorry for those new to the world of DND who have now lost out on the lore presented in those 2 books.
Having just looked back and skimmed the lore... I firmly endorse dropping it from MMM. Most of it is just plain boring.
So, currently published D&D stuff will reflect new rules? Since Tashas's Cauldron and now clearly the case with MMM? Are you guys implying that new 5e rules already exist?
To you but to someone brand new to DMing, it is a starting point. In 20+ years of playing TTRPGs, most of them DMing, I hadn’t touched dnd until about 4/5 years ago or so, I had no interest in the lore during those years so the lore sections if those 2 books gave me a nice little intro to some intrestibg ideas. The fall of the dark elves, the Duregar, Gith, the blood war, the giant dragon war. Some things I read and could see where the source came from, others I read and really liked as a concept I could tweak and change.
It is a great primer for anyone coming into dnd first, easy to read and absorb in a short amount of time, with enough space to play with and change to suit a homebrew setting. Or to go off and find deeper information as required.
In a way, yes. There is a difference in both character race and monster design. We have also seen a change in the way Subclasses are designed as well. We are seeing a shift away from short rest mechanics for example. In the latest UA's and in a recently published book, we have seen a change in Backgrounds and their place in character creation. While each change is subtle, it is impactful and when put together you get the effect that we saw from the switch from 3e to 3.5e. In just over a year and a half, we will see the full change take place with new Core Rule Books. The change is happening a little at a time, but you can see it.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I notice you completely left out all the stuff about surface elves, and 'regular' dwarves, and gnomes, and halflings. There's seeds of interesting stuff, but it's mired in an awful lot of boring verbiage.
Coolio, thx. Fascinating that there's already a direction for future content that will have to connect to a new Player's Handbook, DMG, and Monster Manual. Rumoured to come around 2024? There's the movie, et al, etc. What do peeps call it? 5e+ ... ;p
I actually would not be surprised if it were actually called 5e+ lol
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
5e-2: electric boogaloo! 😜
I don't think you get it, I've watched this happen 3 times before with D&D, since I first played in Jr High in 1985. I saw rule resets from 1st to 2nd, 2nd to 2.5 (It was minor, but they did cut content from AD&D to publish the 2.5 books) then again they erased 20 years of Lore and Rules with 3.0, and then proceeded to Update it to 3.5, then 4.0 had some great lore books and terrible gameplay, now we are here, 37 years of me playing and DMing D&D. Watching the cycle happen again. I'm not upset or concerned one bit, if they do what It looks like they are doing, adding updates and rules, deactivating old books for updated rules, leaving my Lore books I currently own alone, great, because I'm still kind of pissed about all the lore that got changed from AD&D to 3rd, I'm annoyed that they didn't include all the dragon lore from the past generations in 4th, I miss all the lost knowledge and lore when they switched to 5th. I have 3 full tall bookshelves of D&D, full of lore and content, that has been ignored now for 25 or more years. So what they are doing this time, is much better IMO.
I love a lot of the lore. And it actually was quite useful and interesting to me, especially the part on hags.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.You aren't the only one here with more than 3 decades of experience. What don't I get? I really don't know what you are trying argue here.
Are you trying to say that the lore presented in Volo's and Mordy's will never again be revisited in future books and that lore will remain forever green and unchanged some how?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I also played back in the 80’s in 1E. And yes, MMM, and the game going forward, is removing lore from race/monsters. But this now gives you, or other DM’s the ability to use whatever lore you want with 2024’s version. If you prefer 4E’s lore go ahead and use it.
I think it is more fitting for lore to be contained in Setting books or determined by the DM in their homebrew setting.
But maybe I’m not as invested in the lore of a campaign setting that I’m not actually playing in.
Edit: And I have a feeling that MMM, and to a lesser extent Tasha’s, may actually be the first books released that is 2024 compliant and won’t need to be abandoned and rereleased under a different name.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I think this is mostly true, but I think that things like the optional class features and such from Tasha's will be rolled into the new PHB as just part of the classes, while the subclasses and stuff will remain separate. Obviously the race changes of Tasha's and MMM will be in the PHB as well.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master