However, I still believe that it should be easier to change the Vecna's spells to better fit your campaign and adventure, without having to analyze each of his abilities and figure out what spell they most relate to, before having to change them.
Why do you have to do that now? Why change them even? Just add in whatever you want to what’s there. It’s fricking Vecna. He can cast any spell he wants. Level 3 spells are basically cantrips for him. Higher than that he can only do it 1-3/day. Easy peasy.
I was more of thinking, that even if it is Vecna, he's CR 26, he shouldn't have access to every spell ever in the world "easy peasy."
I understand that you dont have to remove elements of a monster to add more. But as is, adding whatever spells you want is unfair to your players. Vecna may be strong, but adding too many extra abilities without removing others can make him even stronger and mess up the powerbalance.
I understand the argument that he's Vecna, he should have access to any spell he wants. So why does he max out at 8th level spells on his stat block?
Even adding some low level utility spells, can impact the battle. Vecna does not need a power boost, and I as a DM have to be mindful when buffing up my monsters. Vecna's spell access is not unlimited. If I give him dream he can make sure a party member is at low HP for the fight, even after long resting. If I gave Vecna teleport, any group of PC's would never be able to defeat him for good, because he could just teleport away the second things looked bad.
Spells are powerful, and even for gods they should not be practically limitless.
I understand that you dont have to remove elements of a monster to add more. But as is, adding whatever spells you want is unfair to your players. Vecna may be strong, but adding too many extra abilities without removing others can make him even stronger and mess up the powerbalance.
Anyone who has ever run a campaign up to level 20 knows that this is simply untrue - including Wizards, who specifically acknowledge in the free level 20 adventure where you fight Vecna that he likely needs to be given lair actions and additional powers.
The simple reality is that CR - which is an unreliable tool even at low levels - completely falls apart when you reach high level characters. Player damage output scales significantly, particularly if you are not limiting players to “PHB + one additional book” and it is possible to build characters that could significantly wound or even one-shot Vecna before he has a chance to act.
Vecna, if run as Vecna (and not reskinned into I need a high level necrotic mini boss), is likely your capstone fight for a high-level campaign; it would be unfair to players to leave Vecna as written, since then they’d have nothing but a quick fight that, at best would probably last a couple rounds. Hardly how anyone wants to end a campaign.
However, I still believe that it should be easier to change the Vecna's spells to better fit your campaign and adventure, without having to analyze each of his abilities and figure out what spell they most relate to, before having to change them.
Why do you have to do that now? Why change them even? Just add in whatever you want to what’s there. It’s fricking Vecna. He can cast any spell he wants. Level 3 spells are basically cantrips for him. Higher than that he can only do it 1-3/day. Easy peasy.
Why? Because new DM's don't have the background for it. This is a prime example how oversimplification leads to a more complicated end result. People are always complaining about the difficulty curve of older editions, and to a point I agree, but this dumbing down creates a problem down the road. Namely, people who have a lesser understanding of game mechanics and every problem following out of this.
This... doesn't make any sense. New DMs don't "have the background" to be tinkering with stat blocks regardless of whether they're OG 5e or the newer versions. The new format is explicitly less complicated for new DMs to use in combat
All new statblocks are like that. If you only teach the simplest things, don't expect anything more. Rubbish in, rubbish out.
Why? Because new DM's don't have the background for it. This is a prime example how oversimplification leads to a more complicated end result. People are always complaining about the difficulty curve of older editions, and to a point I agree, but this dumbing down creates a problem down the road. Namely, people who have a lesser understanding of game mechanics and every problem following out of this.
It doesn't take any deep background skills to go "eh, X does about as much damage as Rotten Fate so it's probably safe to use it instead of that". People editing monster powers directly is probably going to produce better results than swapping spells, because spells are actually pretty terribly balanced.
All new statblocks are like that. If you only teach the simplest things, don't expect anything more. Rubbish in, rubbish out.
That's not how learning a rules system works, but even if it were, a lot of people are still going to have fun with what you're calling "rubbish"
The new stat block works fine for people who can't (or can't be bothered to) tweak it, and it just a starting point for those who can. It really doesn't matter where you try to draw the line between those groups
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
All new statblocks are like that. If you only teach the simplest things, don't expect anything more. Rubbish in, rubbish out.
Gatekeeping--the argument that there should be mechanical or cultural barriers to entry into a certain activity because we want to keep the "rubbish" out--is a hallmark of any conversation in nerddom, be it something like D&D, Magic, Star Wars, etc. It has never once been a good argument and is really only used by people who do not like that their hobby is becoming mainstream.
The simple reality, shown time and time again, is that there is not a "rubbish in, rubbish out" correlation in nerdy activities. Decreasing the barriers for entry does NOT decrease the ceiling - it means that it is easier for people to start in the community, and, once started, they are perfectly capable of learning greater complexity and developing as a player. There are so many resources out there to excel as a DM or a player that you can easily start at the lower entry level Wizards is creating and work your way up to be just as good as someone who has been playing for multiple editions.
I understand that you dont have to remove elements of a monster to add more. But as is, adding whatever spells you want is unfair to your players. Vecna may be strong, but adding too many extra abilities without removing others can make him even stronger and mess up the powerbalance.
Anyone who has ever run a campaign up to level 20 knows that this is simply untrue - including Wizards, who specifically acknowledge in the free level 20 adventure where you fight Vecna that he likely needs to be given lair actions and additional powers.
The simple reality is that CR - which is an unreliable tool even at low levels - completely falls apart when you reach high level characters. Player damage output scales significantly, particularly if you are not limiting players to “PHB + one additional book” and it is possible to build characters that could significantly wound or even one-shot Vecna before he has a chance to act.
Vecna, if run as Vecna (and not reskinned into I need a high level necrotic mini boss), is likely your capstone fight for a high-level campaign; it would be unfair to players to leave Vecna as written, since then they’d have nothing but a quick fight that, at best would probably last a couple rounds. Hardly how anyone wants to end a campaign.
I understand this in combat. But outside of it, if you give Vecna something like dream and are an experienced enough DM to know how to use spells like it that are NOT cast in combat, then you can really mess up any of the party members chances at fighting Vecna.
Vecna can cast dream and stop all those special damage dealing abilities and all that HP from being regained by your party members. Then, they can target and kill that member of the party before moving onto the other.
As I also mentioned before, Vecna could just teleport every time the party got near him if he viewed them as a signifigant threat and the party would never be able to end him.
If you have Vecna know every spell you should be able to play Vecna as a wizard who knows every spell. In and out of combat.
He should be scrying on the party and sending to his minions where and how to ambush them.
If you give him scrying and teleport (you wan't him to know every spell after all) then during the big boss fight against Vecna's OP servants he teleports in and combines with them as two deadly encounters to wreck the party. A 20th level group that has made an enemy in Vecna is on a side quest and they are fighting an evil god, Vecna has used dream to make sure they're not fully healed. And he has been scrying on them, so Vecna knows when to strike. He teleports or plane shifts (whatever is neccesary) to join the other evil god, and against two super hard encounters, the party will stand no chance.
To be a DM, you should understand, giving one creature "additional powers" you have to be mindful of what they are. If you give Vecna the abilities to boost him or as others have suggested, whatever spells he wants ("Since he's Vecna!") then it might just be a TPK waiting to happen. Play Vecna as the 22 int, 24 wisdom, monster he is, and give him numerous extra abilities, then he'll kill them when they're sleeping (scrying to know they're sleeping, sending to get all his godly allies to come, and plane shift or teleport to go there).
I understand that you're not one of the people arguing to give Vecna "Infinite spells", but it is simply innacurate to say that CR "falls apart" at high levels and that that justifies giving loads of extra abilities to Vecna. Here, I have given examples of ways Vecna could use some of the extra abilities others have suggested on this thread (extra to every spell for example) to completely TPK the party. I hope I've helped show that you have to be careful when adding tons of abilities to monsters.
PS/edit: Sorry for the late reply, my notifications glitched and didn't show this.
I understand that you dont have to remove elements of a monster to add more. But as is, adding whatever spells you want is unfair to your players. Vecna may be strong, but adding too many extra abilities without removing others can make him even stronger and mess up the powerbalance.
Anyone who has ever run a campaign up to level 20 knows that this is simply untrue - including Wizards, who specifically acknowledge in the free level 20 adventure where you fight Vecna that he likely needs to be given lair actions and additional powers.
The simple reality is that CR - which is an unreliable tool even at low levels - completely falls apart when you reach high level characters. Player damage output scales significantly, particularly if you are not limiting players to “PHB + one additional book” and it is possible to build characters that could significantly wound or even one-shot Vecna before he has a chance to act.
Vecna, if run as Vecna (and not reskinned into I need a high level necrotic mini boss), is likely your capstone fight for a high-level campaign; it would be unfair to players to leave Vecna as written, since then they’d have nothing but a quick fight that, at best would probably last a couple rounds. Hardly how anyone wants to end a campaign.
I understand this in combat. But outside of it, if you give Vecna something like dream and are an experienced enough DM to know how to use spells like it that are NOT cast in combat, then you can really mess up any of the party members chances at fighting Vecna.
. . .
I understand that you're not one of the people arguing to give Vecna "Infinite spells", but it is simply innacurate to say that CR "falls apart" at high levels and that that justifies giving loads of extra abilities to Vecna. Here, I have given examples of ways Vecna could use some of the extra abilities others have suggested on this thread (extra to every spell for example) to completely TPK the party. I hope I've helped show that you have to be careful when adding tons of abilities to monsters.
We're talking about the stat block, so combat analysis is the only thing that matters. The simple reality is that your entire post is predicated on "but outside of combat they could use X to TPK the party!".... which... yes...? There is always a way for a DM to TPK the party--the only reason it does not happens is basic DM etiquette that even a first time DM with no experience with the game would be able to grasp. A DM could just say Vecna uses his thousands upon thousands of spies to keep tabs on them so he can kill them in their sleep--so it isn't like giving him scry changes anything. Or he could just send those thousands upon thousands of followers to mob the party. Or he could do literally anything else the DM could justify (with such justifications being pretty darn easy given the NPC we are dealing with).
The simple reality is that a DM can always TPK the party at any given second - so saying "but this could be used to surprise the party and TPK them" is the same as saying "I am just going to assume a DM gets a new toy and forgets how to actually DM." Which is why the only metric for measuring stat blocks that really matter is combat--outside of combat the DM can just use any other metric they want to recreate the spell's effect (or just give them the spell--it's not really any different since the end results would be the same).
I understand that you dont have to remove elements of a monster to add more. But as is, adding whatever spells you want is unfair to your players. Vecna may be strong, but adding too many extra abilities without removing others can make him even stronger and mess up the powerbalance.
Anyone who has ever run a campaign up to level 20 knows that this is simply untrue - including Wizards, who specifically acknowledge in the free level 20 adventure where you fight Vecna that he likely needs to be given lair actions and additional powers.
The simple reality is that CR - which is an unreliable tool even at low levels - completely falls apart when you reach high level characters. Player damage output scales significantly, particularly if you are not limiting players to “PHB + one additional book” and it is possible to build characters that could significantly wound or even one-shot Vecna before he has a chance to act.
Vecna, if run as Vecna (and not reskinned into I need a high level necrotic mini boss), is likely your capstone fight for a high-level campaign; it would be unfair to players to leave Vecna as written, since then they’d have nothing but a quick fight that, at best would probably last a couple rounds. Hardly how anyone wants to end a campaign.
I understand this in combat. But outside of it, if you give Vecna something like dream and are an experienced enough DM to know how to use spells like it that are NOT cast in combat, then you can really mess up any of the party members chances at fighting Vecna.
. . .
I understand that you're not one of the people arguing to give Vecna "Infinite spells", but it is simply innacurate to say that CR "falls apart" at high levels and that that justifies giving loads of extra abilities to Vecna. Here, I have given examples of ways Vecna could use some of the extra abilities others have suggested on this thread (extra to every spell for example) to completely TPK the party. I hope I've helped show that you have to be careful when adding tons of abilities to monsters.
We're talking about the stat block, so combat analysis is the only thing that matters. The simple reality is that your entire post is predicated on "but outside of combat they could use X to TPK the party!".... which... yes...? There is always a way for a DM to TPK the party--the only reason it does not happens is basic DM etiquette that even a first time DM with no experience with the game would be able to grasp. A DM could just say Vecna uses his thousands upon thousands of spies to keep tabs on them so he can kill them in their sleep--so it isn't like giving him scry changes anything. Or he could just send those thousands upon thousands of followers to mob the party. Or he could do literally anything else the DM could justify (with such justifications being pretty darn easy given the NPC we are dealing with).
The simple reality is that a DM can always TPK the party at any given second - so saying "but this could be used to surprise the party and TPK them" is the same as saying "I am just going to assume a DM gets a new toy and forgets how to actually DM." Which is why the only metric for measuring stat blocks that really matter is combat--outside of combat the DM can just use any other metric they want to recreate the spell's effect (or just give them the spell--it's not really any different since the end results would be the same).
What I am saying is that, If you give Vecna loads of extra powers as some people have suggested, then play Vecna like the 22 intelligence, 24 wisdom guy he is. Don't disvalue an ability just because it's not good in combat. Also, If you give Vecna the ability to easily TPK the party and he has a reason to do so, you're the one at fault since you gave the abilities.
As Vecna is, he is designed to not be able to kill the party out of combat. Yes, their are always ways for the DM to TPK the party, so why give Vecna an easy path to do it?
It's unfair to your players to just give Vecna a way to win easily and not use it because your the DM. Just don't give the extra abilities and you'll have the same result.
Play Vecna with those "additional powers" as Vecna should be played. It's pointless to give Vecna extra powers to make combat more interesting if you don't even use them.
Is Vecna gonna say to your players "Hi, the DM gave me have a billion powers and I could have easily killed you. But it's bad DM ettiquette to use the extra overpowered abilities they've given the monsters, so I wont use them!"
Again, why give Vecna those abilities if you don't use them how Vecna actually would? He might as well not have supwerpowers if he doesn't bother to use them, and giving monsters super OP powers isn't very good DMing, whether you use them or not (if you use them, your party's TPKed, if you don't, their not really fighting your modified version of Vecna but just a random monster with high HP and a cool counterspell ability).
We're talking about the stat block, so combat analysis is the only thing that matters.
It's not really the stat block if you're only using it in combat. If you only use the abilities in combat, then it's as if Vecna doesn't have them 90% of the time.
We're talking about the stat block, so combat analysis is the only thing that matters.
It's not really the stat block if you're only using it in combat. If you only use the abilities in combat, then it's as if Vecna doesn't have them 90% of the time.
If you read there entire post, you would see why your retort is a non-response. The reality is that, outside of combat, there are myriad ways to emulate items that may or may not be on the stat block. Give Vecna scrying and he could spy on the party; don’t give him scrying, he could use his vast cult to spy on the party. Same effect - if the DM wants Vecna to know or do something during the narrative, non-combat portion of the game, that is going to happen regardless of what the stat block looks like.
It is in combat where stat blocks actually make a difference - during combat things are less likely to change. There a stat block matters - combat has an element of fairness to it that the roleplaying aspect doesn’t, since there are greater constraints on what the DM can or cannot do while within initiative order.
What's more, he can Dread Counterspell any spell he sees being cast. Since this power isn't a spell, it works through walls. It also has no range limitation. He can counter your Tiny Hut, and it's just as free for him to do it as it is for you to cast it ritually. He can counter any buff spells you want to cast before you face him. And if he's really trying to kill you, he can counter spells you cast while fighting other fights. He can counter healing spells you cast between fights, and Detect Magic that you use to scout, and your Find Familiar spells. And every time he counters one of your spells, you take damage.
The only thing keeping this in check is that he can only Scry twice, it only lasts 10 minutes, and it doesn't get to bypass the ordinary saving throw rules for the spell. But he doesn't ever have to sleep, and his DC is quite high.
Edit: A reasonable tactic for a minion of Vecna would be to cast Sending to him as soon as you detect the party. Then he can use his action to cast Scrying on you, you can fail the saving throw willingly as detailed in the spell, and then he can back you up with 3 uncounterable, damaging counterspells every round, no matter where he happens to be on this plane of existence.
Players can enjoy bullying the DM and effectively removing the DM's ability to play spellcasters in combat all they like; that doesn't mean it's good for the game. Counterspell should be a class feature of the School of Abjuration, not a spell, and if it has to be a spell then it should always involve a roll to see if your magic jazz handsing can disrupt the enemy.
Also, if you've ever once in your life complained about the DM using Counterspell to turn off your cool plan and disrupt your play? Snap yourself with a rubber band, do twenty Hail Mary's, and take Counterspell off every single god damn character sheet you have because now you know what you've been doing to the DM every single time they try and present the party with a cool encounter against a powerful spellcasting enemy.
lol... yeah. I built an insane level 20 Wizard, they got slapped down hard by the players. it was a boring fight IMO because casters can't do anything to a Player Character. Oh, and add Feeble mind to the list of DM headaches.
A. If they want to remove Counterspell from the game, they should just remove Counterspell from the game. What they're doing now is:
- screwing over Wizards by denying them new spells to learn
- screwing over characters with Mage Slayer, as if they needed the nerf
- screwing over Ancients Paladins
- encouraging players to think of monsters as stat blocks instead of as creatures that exist in the world.
B. And while I'm here, the text about how Vecna's magic dagger only does cool stuff for Vecna, and if you try to use it, you don't get the cool stuff, is the dumbest bullshit I've ever heard. Are we really concerned that a Vecna-level party might get a magic dagger that's too strong? Come on. It makes no sense, feels bad, and isn't needed. I hate that crap.
C. Oh, and the Book of Vile Darkness in his chest that he's just too much of a good sport to use in combat? Come on. Now, I looked it up, and honestly it doesn't help him. Nothing it can do is stronger than his normal stuff. But the way it's phrased makes it sound like he's playing with one hand tied behind his back for absolutely no reason.
D. I also really think that when a monster is making 2 weapon attacks AND casting a spell AND teleporting AND countering 3 spells, all in one round, maybe there should be some flavor text about him being very fast. Maybe there should be something you can tell your players that will indicate that he gets a lot of actions. Just a thought.
A: As a long time DM, the current state of Counterspell allows a level 10 party take out a a level 20 Wizard NPC without any difficulties. It's been broken since 5th edition, and needs to be fixed.
B: Vecna Channels his magic into his daggers, odds are it's just a +2 dagger that he made when he last reformed.
C: BoVD is powerful and evil, and it's biggest feature is it's a stat tome of pure evil, Vecna also created the book, and it's basically his "Holy Book" His abilities as a God of Evil Magic are more impressive than the tome he wrote.
D: God of Evil Magic of the Multiverse. He's technically stronger than Mystra Goddess of Magic of the The Faerûnian pantheon He's technically on par with the Greater Gods and Devils, and he got there without being worshiped.
---
Quick edit:
Also I should point out, this monster stat block is probably not the main body, but one of his many, many clones that he has scattered through out the Multiverse. He's a God or Undeath and Evil Magic, he did that on his own abilities as a level 20+ Wizard and a Lich, he's an impressive being.
lol... yeah. I built an insane level 20 Wizard, they got slapped down hard by the players. it was a boring fight IMO because casters can't do anything to a Player Character. Oh, and add Feeble mind to the list of DM headaches.
Well, they can, but you need to do things that can't be counterspelled (remember, counterspell has range 120' and requires seeing the target cast a spell) or make it so their reactions are consumed by other things.
Well, theycan, but you need to do things that can't be counterspelled (remember, counterspell has range 120' and requires seeing the target cast a spell) or make it so their reactions are consumed by other things.
I think the statblock overall is pretty cool. My only complaint is that I prefer the old presentation of the spells more since there are more options listed, and since I can just hover my mouse over a spell and see what it does, I do not have to switch to another tab as often to pick new spells from the database. It is not huge issue since I can just use homebrew and copy-paste more spells into the statblock.
1.) New caster stat blocks do not use spells for their primary damage, and thus their primary damage cannot be Counterspelled.
I think it is cool that Vecna have access to magical damage that cannot be counterspelled. Makes him feel more like a boss. He has been an archlich for a while, so he is bound to have a few magic tricks up his sleeve that cannot be counterspelled.
That being said, I do not have an issue with counterspell either, and I think it is a fun and powerful spell as is.
2.) New caster stat blocks do not give a spellcasting class, a spellcasting level, or spell slots for the critter, making it harder to rejigger their spell lists.
...
My take: DMs have no need to limit themselves to PC generation rules and the sooner they realize that the better they'll be as DMs. ... Try shit, break stuff, and fix it in post. You don't have to run a perfect game, just a good one.
I do not see how class, level, nor slots have anything to do with how hard it is to mess with spell lists, since they can all be independent of each other. I totally agree that shackling your imagination with player rules and limitations is completely unnecessary. If I facepalmed myself every time I see a request to have Beyond implement a PC to NPC conversion tool, I can deal psychic damage to bards with my face before they can even retaliate with Viscious Mockery. If a GM wants a caster to know a spell, that caster will know a spell.
RAW, Vecna is already fighting a losing battle against a barebones no subclass level 20 wizard. A necromancer wizard at that level will curbstomp Vecna. It does not matter how many Legendary Resistance he has, because if it is a finite number, a necromancer wizard will eventually enslave Vecna with their simulacrum army. Giving Vecna wish will close some of the gap at best so he will not be a complete push over. At worst, it will give your party a panic and scare before that one smug caster in the group use counterspell and deservedly win the spotlight and be the hero.
I was more of thinking, that even if it is Vecna, he's CR 26, he shouldn't have access to every spell ever in the world "easy peasy."
I understand that you dont have to remove elements of a monster to add more. But as is, adding whatever spells you want is unfair to your players. Vecna may be strong, but adding too many extra abilities without removing others can make him even stronger and mess up the powerbalance.
I understand the argument that he's Vecna, he should have access to any spell he wants. So why does he max out at 8th level spells on his stat block?
Even adding some low level utility spells, can impact the battle. Vecna does not need a power boost, and I as a DM have to be mindful when buffing up my monsters. Vecna's spell access is not unlimited. If I give him dream he can make sure a party member is at low HP for the fight, even after long resting. If I gave Vecna teleport, any group of PC's would never be able to defeat him for good, because he could just teleport away the second things looked bad.
Spells are powerful, and even for gods they should not be practically limitless.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Anyone who has ever run a campaign up to level 20 knows that this is simply untrue - including Wizards, who specifically acknowledge in the free level 20 adventure where you fight Vecna that he likely needs to be given lair actions and additional powers.
The simple reality is that CR - which is an unreliable tool even at low levels - completely falls apart when you reach high level characters. Player damage output scales significantly, particularly if you are not limiting players to “PHB + one additional book” and it is possible to build characters that could significantly wound or even one-shot Vecna before he has a chance to act.
Vecna, if run as Vecna (and not reskinned into I need a high level necrotic mini boss), is likely your capstone fight for a high-level campaign; it would be unfair to players to leave Vecna as written, since then they’d have nothing but a quick fight that, at best would probably last a couple rounds. Hardly how anyone wants to end a campaign.
All new statblocks are like that. If you only teach the simplest things, don't expect anything more. Rubbish in, rubbish out.
It doesn't take any deep background skills to go "eh, X does about as much damage as Rotten Fate so it's probably safe to use it instead of that". People editing monster powers directly is probably going to produce better results than swapping spells, because spells are actually pretty terribly balanced.
That's not how learning a rules system works, but even if it were, a lot of people are still going to have fun with what you're calling "rubbish"
The new stat block works fine for people who can't (or can't be bothered to) tweak it, and it just a starting point for those who can. It really doesn't matter where you try to draw the line between those groups
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Gatekeeping--the argument that there should be mechanical or cultural barriers to entry into a certain activity because we want to keep the "rubbish" out--is a hallmark of any conversation in nerddom, be it something like D&D, Magic, Star Wars, etc. It has never once been a good argument and is really only used by people who do not like that their hobby is becoming mainstream.
The simple reality, shown time and time again, is that there is not a "rubbish in, rubbish out" correlation in nerdy activities. Decreasing the barriers for entry does NOT decrease the ceiling - it means that it is easier for people to start in the community, and, once started, they are perfectly capable of learning greater complexity and developing as a player. There are so many resources out there to excel as a DM or a player that you can easily start at the lower entry level Wizards is creating and work your way up to be just as good as someone who has been playing for multiple editions.
I understand this in combat. But outside of it, if you give Vecna something like dream and are an experienced enough DM to know how to use spells like it that are NOT cast in combat, then you can really mess up any of the party members chances at fighting Vecna.
Vecna can cast dream and stop all those special damage dealing abilities and all that HP from being regained by your party members. Then, they can target and kill that member of the party before moving onto the other.
As I also mentioned before, Vecna could just teleport every time the party got near him if he viewed them as a signifigant threat and the party would never be able to end him.
If you have Vecna know every spell you should be able to play Vecna as a wizard who knows every spell. In and out of combat.
He should be scrying on the party and sending to his minions where and how to ambush them.
If you give him scrying and teleport (you wan't him to know every spell after all) then during the big boss fight against Vecna's OP servants he teleports in and combines with them as two deadly encounters to wreck the party. A 20th level group that has made an enemy in Vecna is on a side quest and they are fighting an evil god, Vecna has used dream to make sure they're not fully healed. And he has been scrying on them, so Vecna knows when to strike. He teleports or plane shifts (whatever is neccesary) to join the other evil god, and against two super hard encounters, the party will stand no chance.
To be a DM, you should understand, giving one creature "additional powers" you have to be mindful of what they are. If you give Vecna the abilities to boost him or as others have suggested, whatever spells he wants ("Since he's Vecna!") then it might just be a TPK waiting to happen. Play Vecna as the 22 int, 24 wisdom, monster he is, and give him numerous extra abilities, then he'll kill them when they're sleeping (scrying to know they're sleeping, sending to get all his godly allies to come, and plane shift or teleport to go there).
I understand that you're not one of the people arguing to give Vecna "Infinite spells", but it is simply innacurate to say that CR "falls apart" at high levels and that that justifies giving loads of extra abilities to Vecna. Here, I have given examples of ways Vecna could use some of the extra abilities others have suggested on this thread (extra to every spell for example) to completely TPK the party. I hope I've helped show that you have to be careful when adding tons of abilities to monsters.
PS/edit: Sorry for the late reply, my notifications glitched and didn't show this.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Well, most modern players don't like combat, so.... lol.
Hail Vecna! He'll be in my campaign come the fall.
Vecna already has Scrying.
We're talking about the stat block, so combat analysis is the only thing that matters. The simple reality is that your entire post is predicated on "but outside of combat they could use X to TPK the party!".... which... yes...? There is always a way for a DM to TPK the party--the only reason it does not happens is basic DM etiquette that even a first time DM with no experience with the game would be able to grasp. A DM could just say Vecna uses his thousands upon thousands of spies to keep tabs on them so he can kill them in their sleep--so it isn't like giving him scry changes anything. Or he could just send those thousands upon thousands of followers to mob the party. Or he could do literally anything else the DM could justify (with such justifications being pretty darn easy given the NPC we are dealing with).
The simple reality is that a DM can always TPK the party at any given second - so saying "but this could be used to surprise the party and TPK them" is the same as saying "I am just going to assume a DM gets a new toy and forgets how to actually DM." Which is why the only metric for measuring stat blocks that really matter is combat--outside of combat the DM can just use any other metric they want to recreate the spell's effect (or just give them the spell--it's not really any different since the end results would be the same).
What I am saying is that, If you give Vecna loads of extra powers as some people have suggested, then play Vecna like the 22 intelligence, 24 wisdom guy he is. Don't disvalue an ability just because it's not good in combat. Also, If you give Vecna the ability to easily TPK the party and he has a reason to do so, you're the one at fault since you gave the abilities.
As Vecna is, he is designed to not be able to kill the party out of combat. Yes, their are always ways for the DM to TPK the party, so why give Vecna an easy path to do it?
It's unfair to your players to just give Vecna a way to win easily and not use it because your the DM. Just don't give the extra abilities and you'll have the same result.
Play Vecna with those "additional powers" as Vecna should be played. It's pointless to give Vecna extra powers to make combat more interesting if you don't even use them.
Is Vecna gonna say to your players "Hi, the DM gave me have a billion powers and I could have easily killed you. But it's bad DM ettiquette to use the extra overpowered abilities they've given the monsters, so I wont use them!"
Again, why give Vecna those abilities if you don't use them how Vecna actually would? He might as well not have supwerpowers if he doesn't bother to use them, and giving monsters super OP powers isn't very good DMing, whether you use them or not (if you use them, your party's TPKed, if you don't, their not really fighting your modified version of Vecna but just a random monster with high HP and a cool counterspell ability).
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.It's not really the stat block if you're only using it in combat. If you only use the abilities in combat, then it's as if Vecna doesn't have them 90% of the time.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.If you read there entire post, you would see why your retort is a non-response. The reality is that, outside of combat, there are myriad ways to emulate items that may or may not be on the stat block. Give Vecna scrying and he could spy on the party; don’t give him scrying, he could use his vast cult to spy on the party. Same effect - if the DM wants Vecna to know or do something during the narrative, non-combat portion of the game, that is going to happen regardless of what the stat block looks like.
It is in combat where stat blocks actually make a difference - during combat things are less likely to change. There a stat block matters - combat has an element of fairness to it that the roleplaying aspect doesn’t, since there are greater constraints on what the DM can or cannot do while within initiative order.
Vecna already has Scrying.
What's more, he can Dread Counterspell any spell he sees being cast. Since this power isn't a spell, it works through walls. It also has no range limitation. He can counter your Tiny Hut, and it's just as free for him to do it as it is for you to cast it ritually. He can counter any buff spells you want to cast before you face him. And if he's really trying to kill you, he can counter spells you cast while fighting other fights. He can counter healing spells you cast between fights, and Detect Magic that you use to scout, and your Find Familiar spells. And every time he counters one of your spells, you take damage.
The only thing keeping this in check is that he can only Scry twice, it only lasts 10 minutes, and it doesn't get to bypass the ordinary saving throw rules for the spell. But he doesn't ever have to sleep, and his DC is quite high.
Edit: A reasonable tactic for a minion of Vecna would be to cast Sending to him as soon as you detect the party. Then he can use his action to cast Scrying on you, you can fail the saving throw willingly as detailed in the spell, and then he can back you up with 3 uncounterable, damaging counterspells every round, no matter where he happens to be on this plane of existence.
lol... yeah. I built an insane level 20 Wizard, they got slapped down hard by the players. it was a boring fight IMO because casters can't do anything to a Player Character. Oh, and add Feeble mind to the list of DM headaches.
A: As a long time DM, the current state of Counterspell allows a level 10 party take out a a level 20 Wizard NPC without any difficulties. It's been broken since 5th edition, and needs to be fixed.
B: Vecna Channels his magic into his daggers, odds are it's just a +2 dagger that he made when he last reformed.
C: BoVD is powerful and evil, and it's biggest feature is it's a stat tome of pure evil, Vecna also created the book, and it's basically his "Holy Book" His abilities as a God of Evil Magic are more impressive than the tome he wrote.
D: God of Evil Magic of the Multiverse. He's technically stronger than Mystra Goddess of Magic of the The Faerûnian pantheon He's technically on par with the Greater Gods and Devils, and he got there without being worshiped.
---
Quick edit:
Also I should point out, this monster stat block is probably not the main body, but one of his many, many clones that he has scattered through out the Multiverse. He's a God or Undeath and Evil Magic, he did that on his own abilities as a level 20+ Wizard and a Lich, he's an impressive being.
Well, they can, but you need to do things that can't be counterspelled (remember, counterspell has range 120' and requires seeing the target cast a spell) or make it so their reactions are consumed by other things.
This stat block is pre-ascension. He's not a god here.
Counterspell has a range of 60'
Finally got enough time to chime in!
I think the statblock overall is pretty cool. My only complaint is that I prefer the old presentation of the spells more since there are more options listed, and since I can just hover my mouse over a spell and see what it does, I do not have to switch to another tab as often to pick new spells from the database. It is not huge issue since I can just use homebrew and copy-paste more spells into the statblock.
I think it is cool that Vecna have access to magical damage that cannot be counterspelled. Makes him feel more like a boss. He has been an archlich for a while, so he is bound to have a few magic tricks up his sleeve that cannot be counterspelled.
That being said, I do not have an issue with counterspell either, and I think it is a fun and powerful spell as is.
I do not see how class, level, nor slots have anything to do with how hard it is to mess with spell lists, since they can all be independent of each other. I totally agree that shackling your imagination with player rules and limitations is completely unnecessary. If I facepalmed myself every time I see a request to have Beyond implement a PC to NPC conversion tool, I can deal psychic damage to bards with my face before they can even retaliate with Viscious Mockery. If a GM wants a caster to know a spell, that caster will know a spell.
RAW, Vecna is already fighting a losing battle against a barebones no subclass level 20 wizard. A necromancer wizard at that level will curbstomp Vecna. It does not matter how many Legendary Resistance he has, because if it is a finite number, a necromancer wizard will eventually enslave Vecna with their simulacrum army. Giving Vecna wish will close some of the gap at best so he will not be a complete push over. At worst, it will give your party a panic and scare before that one smug caster in the group use counterspell and deservedly win the spotlight and be the hero.
Check Licenses and Resync Entitlements: < https://www.dndbeyond.com/account/licenses >
Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >