I wish Vecna had higher intelligence score, I feel like 22 is a bit low for a super god of secrets. That's one less than a random archdevil who doesn't even own a layer of the nine hells (Hutijin, M3 page 157). Comparetively, I think Vecna should be smarter since he's supposed to be a literal superstrong god.
I bet the explanation for his int score being relatively lowish because it's his spellcasting ability. Maybe they were nervous about him having too high a spell attack bonus and save DC?
PS. Why is his wisdom sore higher than his intelligence? He literally was a wizard in life!
Edit: I know 22 is a very high ability score, but just to clarify, what bothers me is that for Vecna, a god, it seems slightly lower than it should be.
The stat block is still Vecna before becoming a god. He is "only" an Archlich
The stat block is still Vecna before becoming a god. He is "only" an Archlich
This is at least the fifth time someone has had to point this out in this thread
Is it too much to ask that people read what's already been written before commenting?
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The stat block is still Vecna before becoming a god. He is "only" an Archlich
This is at least the fifth time someone has had to point this out in this thread
Is it too much to ask that people read what's already been written before commenting?
I have a bridge to sell anyone who thinks this Vecna statblock will be primarily run as an archlich. Even if, on paper, he is an archlich, Vecna is most commonly known as a god and no one wants to DM a campaign where the player characters are a small, forgotten chapter in the BBEG’s greater story. DMs and players alike generally want an impactful story - they don’t want to be in a story where the epilogue is (a) already known before the campaign begins and (b) the actions of the campaign are irrelevant to the epilogue.
Wizards can say all they want that “but this is just an archlich” - but they are not naïve - they know that this will mostly be used as a god, but wanted to officially avoid printing (another) apex god as something with a CR
I think there's an argument to be made that this is meant to serve as a template onto which a DM can build a god. Frankly, at this level, you have to tune your monsters specifically for your party anyway -- for some parties, his fear effect will be absolutely nothing, but it's part of his power budget, for example.
However, I think this assertion falls apart when you consider that they could've just said "use this as a template to build a version of god-Vecna that's appropriate for your party," and they didn't.
Even so, you should probably use it that way, if you're going to use it at all.
The stat block is still Vecna before becoming a god. He is "only" an Archlich
This is at least the fifth time someone has had to point this out in this thread
Is it too much to ask that people read what's already been written before commenting?
I have a bridge to sell anyone who thinks this Vecna statblock will be primarily run as an archlich.
I think you're overestimating how well-known Vecna's history actually is, or how relevant a figure he is in any campaign that doesn't stick to published lore. Heck, they only released this statblock as a Stranger Things tie-in, and the Hellfire Club didn't seem to be fighting a god version of Vecna in season 4
People will use the statblock as an archlich because it's labeled archlich
That also doesn't excuse people who don't bother to read the threads they're posting in
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The stat block is still Vecna before becoming a god. He is "only" an Archlich
This is at least the fifth time someone has had to point this out in this thread
Is it too much to ask that people read what's already been written before commenting?
I have a bridge to sell anyone who thinks this Vecna statblock will be primarily run as an archlich.
I think you're overestimating how well-known Vecna's history actually is, or how relevant a figure he is in any campaign that doesn't stick to published lore. Heck, they only released this statblock as a Stranger Things tie-in, and the Hellfire Club didn't seem to be fighting a god version of Vecna in season 4
People will use the statblock as an archlich because it's labeled archlich
That also doesn't excuse people who don't bother to read the threads they're posting in
Yeah. Not everyone is going to stick to the official lore. My DM for example took a lot of liberties with Strahd including us destroying Strahd forever in the version of COS he worked into the larger campaign. Despite the book being very clear that Strahd will always come back. Nobody who wants to use Vecna as an archlich is beholden to allow Vecna to ascent to godhood in their story.
I love that Vecna has 5(!) legendery resistances. With that and dread counterspell, I feel sorry for any spellcaster fighting Vecna.
But... I now understand that Vecna is NOT a god at this point (sorry for messing up that fact guys) but shouldn't his actual spellcasting ability (intelligence) be higher than his wisdom score?
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BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
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I love that Vecna has 5(!) legendery resistances. With that and dread counterspell, I feel sorry for any spellcaster fighting Vecna.
But... I now understand that Vecna is NOT a god at this point (sorry for messing up that fact guys) but shouldn't his actual spellcasting ability (intelligence) be higher than his wisdom score?
Thats honestly really debateable on how you play it, like we dont know the ritual to become a lich, let alone an archlich, but its possible that to go beyond a regular lich he needed more then genuis level intelligence? or maybe thats how he survived long enough as an archlich to become a god, he had more sense then others of whats wise to keep him alive
I can see the process to become a Liche requiring huge Will Power, yes you need intelligence to learn the ritual and understand how to do it but, the process of ripping out your soul, making yourself undead while still keeping you own intelligence and "free will" that would take immense willpower to achieve.
I mean to kill a God wold probably require a ton of special stuff to do, these are being that have immense power beyond event a level 20 party, Imagine a being that can cast Wish, at will, without any components and no chance of losing the spell, that is probably akin to one of the true gods.
Has D&D ever put in an actual god? Because for Tiamat and Bahamut and the other’s it is just the aspect.
No actual gods in this edition. I think they also had an aspect of Auril in RotF, though.
In 1e there was Deities and Demigods, which was an amazing book and had stats for gods from many earth pantheons, along with D@D gods like grummsh and Corelian, etc. They may have updated it for 3e, but I don’t remember.
I think the idea now is to leave the gods up to DM imagination, instead of writing things down which might limit them.
Has D&D ever put in an actual god? Because for Tiamat and Bahamut and the other’s it is just the aspect.
No actual gods in this edition. I think they also had an aspect of Auril in RotF, though.
In 1e there was Deities and Demigods, which was an amazing book and had stats for gods from many earth pantheons, along with D@D gods like grummsh and Corelian, etc. They may have updated it for 3e, but I don’t remember.
I think the idea now is to leave the gods up to DM imagination, instead of writing things down which might limit them.
Tiamat from Rise of Tiamat is printed as something other than an aspect - the FToD printing is an aspect though. Auril is also printed as herself, not really as an aspect but there are poorly articulated and badly written reasons within the module why she is such a low CR.
Fourth Edition printed stat blocks for a number of gods, though I cannot recall which off the top of my head.
Fourth Edition printed stat blocks for a number of gods, though I cannot recall which off the top of my head.
Not really; the only ones I'm finding are Vecna, Lolth, and Bahamut.
I believe there might have been a few more than that - I am pretty sure both Torag and Tiamat had stats as well. Alas, I mostly went through D&D Insider and that’s been defunct for a long time, and do not believe there are any gods in the corporeal books I own.
Has D&D ever put in an actual god? Because for Tiamat and Bahamut and the other’s it is just the aspect.
No actual gods in this edition. I think they also had an aspect of Auril in RotF, though.
In 1e there was Deities and Demigods, which was an amazing book and had stats for gods from many earth pantheons, along with D@D gods like grummsh and Corelian, etc. They may have updated it for 3e, but I don’t remember.
I think the idea now is to leave the gods up to DM imagination, instead of writing things down which might limit them.
I actually have that book somewhere, need to dig it out again
In any case my point is still that giving enemies new abilities mid-session is something I don't agree with, and that's clearly what he was doing.
This is done all the time by dms, while yes, at times it can lead to fights ooc, due to both the possibilities of bad players and bad dms, generally, its perfectly fine to do especailly if you have an experienced dm with a group of folks they know playing
Yeah. For me at least, encounter design doesn't stop once initiative is rolled. If say, a boss has been unintentionally easy and anticlimactic, I might give it a new ability part way through the fight to put the players back on edge, within reason. That said, I don't do this with the intention of making the party lose, or to avoid any chance of the party failing. Nor do I do this to undercut creative solutions from the party.
Personally I don't do this, if an encounter ends up being far easier then I expected I just chalk it up to experiance and move on, possibly having the story define that that boss was actually a mini boss and so create a different creature to attack at some point. I run Milestone so it is up to me when the players level so I am not so worried about them getting "free" XP.
It depends on the situation. If they're just fighting mooks, sure. I have no problem with them wiping the floor with them, even if it was intended as a challenge. The problem is when they're fighting a character that brings an arc to a close. When I ran DoIP for example, the game was very oriented to them fighting and killing Cryovain at Icespire Peak. It would have made no sense to bait and switch with another "real" BBEG somewhere else. I wish I'd had the confidence to modify his stats on the fly to make the fight last longer. Not a big deal, but almost every fight throughout the campaign had been more substantial.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
In any case my point is still that giving enemies new abilities mid-session is something I don't agree with, and that's clearly what he was doing.
This is done all the time by dms, while yes, at times it can lead to fights ooc, due to both the possibilities of bad players and bad dms, generally, its perfectly fine to do especailly if you have an experienced dm with a group of folks they know playing
Yeah. For me at least, encounter design doesn't stop once initiative is rolled. If say, a boss has been unintentionally easy and anticlimactic, I might give it a new ability part way through the fight to put the players back on edge, within reason. That said, I don't do this with the intention of making the party lose, or to avoid any chance of the party failing. Nor do I do this to undercut creative solutions from the party.
Personally I don't do this, if an encounter ends up being far easier then I expected I just chalk it up to experiance and move on, possibly having the story define that that boss was actually a mini boss and so create a different creature to attack at some point. I run Milestone so it is up to me when the players level so I am not so worried about them getting "free" XP.
It depends on the situation. If they're just fighting mooks, sure. I have no problem with them wiping the floor with them, even if it was intended as a challenge. The problem is when they're fighting a character that brings an arc to a close. When I ran DoIP for example, the game was very oriented to them fighting and killing Cryovain at Icespire Peak. It would have made no sense to bait and switch with another "real" BBEG somewhere else. I wish I'd had the confidence to modify his stats on the fly to make the fight last longer. Not a big deal, but almost every fight throughout the campaign had been more substantial.
Yeah, this is a tool I use when the situation feels right, not for every encounter.
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The stat block is still Vecna before becoming a god. He is "only" an Archlich
This is at least the fifth time someone has had to point this out in this thread
Is it too much to ask that people read what's already been written before commenting?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I have a bridge to sell anyone who thinks this Vecna statblock will be primarily run as an archlich. Even if, on paper, he is an archlich, Vecna is most commonly known as a god and no one wants to DM a campaign where the player characters are a small, forgotten chapter in the BBEG’s greater story. DMs and players alike generally want an impactful story - they don’t want to be in a story where the epilogue is (a) already known before the campaign begins and (b) the actions of the campaign are irrelevant to the epilogue.
Wizards can say all they want that “but this is just an archlich” - but they are not naïve - they know that this will mostly be used as a god, but wanted to officially avoid printing (another) apex god as something with a CR
I think there's an argument to be made that this is meant to serve as a template onto which a DM can build a god. Frankly, at this level, you have to tune your monsters specifically for your party anyway -- for some parties, his fear effect will be absolutely nothing, but it's part of his power budget, for example.
However, I think this assertion falls apart when you consider that they could've just said "use this as a template to build a version of god-Vecna that's appropriate for your party," and they didn't.
Even so, you should probably use it that way, if you're going to use it at all.
I think you're overestimating how well-known Vecna's history actually is, or how relevant a figure he is in any campaign that doesn't stick to published lore. Heck, they only released this statblock as a Stranger Things tie-in, and the Hellfire Club didn't seem to be fighting a god version of Vecna in season 4
People will use the statblock as an archlich because it's labeled archlich
That also doesn't excuse people who don't bother to read the threads they're posting in
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
TBH many people using Vecna these days will probably want to do a Stranger Things version of Vecna. Luckily we got the
Eldritch Lich.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Yeah. Not everyone is going to stick to the official lore. My DM for example took a lot of liberties with Strahd including us destroying Strahd forever in the version of COS he worked into the larger campaign. Despite the book being very clear that Strahd will always come back. Nobody who wants to use Vecna as an archlich is beholden to allow Vecna to ascent to godhood in their story.
I love that Vecna has 5(!) legendery resistances. With that and dread counterspell, I feel sorry for any spellcaster fighting Vecna.
But... I now understand that Vecna is NOT a god at this point (sorry for messing up that fact guys) but shouldn't his actual spellcasting ability (intelligence) be higher than his wisdom score?
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Thats honestly really debateable on how you play it, like we dont know the ritual to become a lich, let alone an archlich, but its possible that to go beyond a regular lich he needed more then genuis level intelligence? or maybe thats how he survived long enough as an archlich to become a god, he had more sense then others of whats wise to keep him alive
I can see the process to become a Liche requiring huge Will Power, yes you need intelligence to learn the ritual and understand how to do it but, the process of ripping out your soul, making yourself undead while still keeping you own intelligence and "free will" that would take immense willpower to achieve.
Has D&D ever put in an actual god? Because for Tiamat and Bahamut and the other’s it is just the aspect.
“Magic is distilled laziness. Put that on my gravestone.”
I mean to kill a God wold probably require a ton of special stuff to do, these are being that have immense power beyond event a level 20 party, Imagine a being that can cast Wish, at will, without any components and no chance of losing the spell, that is probably akin to one of the true gods.
No actual gods in this edition. I think they also had an aspect of Auril in RotF, though.
In 1e there was Deities and Demigods, which was an amazing book and had stats for gods from many earth pantheons, along with D@D gods like grummsh and Corelian, etc. They may have updated it for 3e, but I don’t remember.
I think the idea now is to leave the gods up to DM imagination, instead of writing things down which might limit them.
Tiamat from Rise of Tiamat is printed as something other than an aspect - the FToD printing is an aspect though. Auril is also printed as herself, not really as an aspect but there are
poorly articulated and badly writtenreasons within the module why she is such a low CR.Fourth Edition printed stat blocks for a number of gods, though I cannot recall which off the top of my head.
Not really; the only ones I'm finding are Vecna, Lolth, and Bahamut.
I believe there might have been a few more than that - I am pretty sure both Torag and Tiamat had stats as well. Alas, I mostly went through D&D Insider and that’s been defunct for a long time, and do not believe there are any gods in the corporeal books I own.
I forget exactly what it looked like, but Torag did have stats, yeah.
I actually have that book somewhere, need to dig it out again
It depends on the situation. If they're just fighting mooks, sure. I have no problem with them wiping the floor with them, even if it was intended as a challenge. The problem is when they're fighting a character that brings an arc to a close. When I ran DoIP for example, the game was very oriented to them fighting and killing Cryovain at Icespire Peak. It would have made no sense to bait and switch with another "real" BBEG somewhere else. I wish I'd had the confidence to modify his stats on the fly to make the fight last longer. Not a big deal, but almost every fight throughout the campaign had been more substantial.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Yeah, this is a tool I use when the situation feels right, not for every encounter.