Hi, Sorry if this has come up before, but I wanted to gage if people had a similar concern as I regarding how the new 5e game will be designed.
The new Vecna stat block we recently saw is my main evidence of a shift in the direction of the game. Now, I'm sure everyone here knows what's in the pipeline at WoTC already and what I'm on about. Watching Prof. Dungeon Master on YouTube recently got me thinking about the old 'pulp fiction' style D&D and what is to come. In short; what's to come is a less gory, horrific, and bloody design strategy and feel for a more sanitary and what was called more 'Marvel universe' feel. Heck, the new Vecna sorta looks like a Marvel villain, right?
Look at this new Vecna. Just the art itself. When you see it, do you even think it's Vecna? Well, no. It has two eyes and two hands. I've no idea what's up his nose. Is this Vecna? I think this is just a very big sign of what's to come. Anyone remember the fiasco back when 2e sanitized D&D into obscurity?
Now, I love the team at WoTC. They make me wonderful things! I love 5e, and have many of the books as well as my sub here at D&DB. And I think it's terrific that WoTC and Hasbro are gearing up for a massive D&D blitz next year and beyond, especially with the movie coming. And all the new flavours of D&D are great too; furry animals, feywild fairie frolics, etc. I think it's a terrific idea to drop a single style/flavour of D&D, in one world setting say, and offer lots of flavours of D&D. All good. But where the hell is Vecna? The evil lich almost god with his soul trapped in a jar somewhere, missing magical hand and eye that are powerful and pure evil?
I don't know, of course, but I do not want the more adult pulp aspects of D&D to disappear. After all, it's fun to have scary villains and monsters to play.
“The accompanying stat block depicts Vecna in his archlich form prior to Kas’s betrayal. Because Vecna is said to have mastered magic allowing him to travel through time, he can appear in this form even on worlds where his severed hand and eye are already known artifacts.”
It is Vecna, just when he was a lich prior to his apotheosis. Of course he has his hands and eyes - he hasn’t been blown to pieces in his fight with Kas yet.
As for “sanitisation” of the game - I have not watched whatever video you are talking about or even know who the person you reference is, but that sounds like poppycock. The “gory, horrific, and bloody” elements come from the DM and players, not from the game’s design. You can make an incredibly graphic campaign using just silly creatures from the Feywild, or a happy go lucky campaign using some of the truly horrific monsters Wizards has commissioned art for. Anyone who says “Wizards new design is more sanitised” is really just confessing their own limitations in storytelling ability.
Now, is it more streamlined to run these new monster blocks? Yes. But that really is more about lowering the floor for DMing complexity - the ceiling for complexity is still as high as DM wants it to be. They are trying to solve one of D&D’s persistent problems (too many players, not enough DMs, and a perception that DMing is too hard for brand new DMs), but, in so doing, are not limiting experienced DMs from expanding beyond the basics.
If you read the lore bits surrounding this Vecna stat block, it explicitly states that that stat block represents him before his hand/eye were stolen and before he became godlike. So the reason that this particular Vecna doesn't feel like "the evil lich almost god with his soul trapped in a jar somewhere, missing magical hand and eye that are powerful.." is because it simply isnt. This stat block is not meant to represent Vecna at his peak. Will they release that stat block down the line? Maybe, idk.
Also, the stuff about him looking/feeling watered down and like a "marvel villain" seems very subjective.
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IMHO... any text that explains why this new Vecna is the way he is, is just a rationalization of why this is Vecna, as opposed to simply looking at him and knowing it's that good old, evil, rotting, missing an eye and hand pure evil lich godling.
Vecna is an important character in D&D, an IP that's very important to WoTC. Stranger Things shot Vecna into the mainstream limelight, and the future of D&D will be much more mainstream. Heck, D&D is mainstream now. So how does all this impact how the team at WoTC and Hasbro design the upcoming 2024 game and future products? And how do you feel about it?
And there's a real difference between subjective views on something and completely different styles. A Steven King book can't be mistaken for Agatha Christy, but both still have mysteries, murder, and such.
IMHO... any text that explains why this new Vecna is the way he is, is just a rationalization of why this is Vecna, as opposed to simply looking at him and knowing it's that good old, evil, rotting, missing an eye and hand pure evil lich godling.
Vecna is an important character in D&D, an IP that's very important to WoTC. Stranger Things shot Vecna into the mainstream limelight, and the future of D&D will be much more mainstream. Heck, D&D is mainstream now. So how does all this impact how the team at WoTC and Hasbro design the upcoming 2024 game and future products?
No way of knowing. I am not a designer for WotC
And how do you feel about it?
I feel fine about it. Despite the change in design style for spellcasters, this pre-godlike Vecna is absolutely a force to be reckoned with.
And there's a real difference between subjective views on something and completely different styles. A Steven King book can't be mistaken for Agatha Christy, but both still have mysteries, murder, and such.
Its subjective because the idea that he is "like a marvel villain" and that WotC is making things more like a marvel universe feel are literally your opinions. Stating how you feel about something is, by definition, stating something subjective about it.
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IMHO... any text that explains why this new Vecna is the way he is, is just a rationalization of why this is Vecna, as opposed to simply looking at him and knowing it's that good old, evil, rotting, missing an eye and hand pure evil lich godling.
That is not a rationalisation - prequels are things that exist and there are good reasons to say “we want to give you guys a recognisable enemy you love, but at a level you might actually be able to kill, rather than have your party go against a major god.” The Vecna we received is exactly what Wizards set out to do - create a pre-apotheosis character. This is not the first time Wizards has taken this route (Urza and Yawgmoth in Magic were both printed in their creature form, not their respective Planeswalker and god forms), nor will it be the last. Some characters are just so big and famous that they likely cannot be killed even by a group of level 20s… but who players would still like to fight due to name recognition. So Wizards will either print their avatars or them at a weakened state (such as Tiamat post staying in Avernus for a while or Vecna as being printed before he became powerful).
A rationalisation is something like “oops, I made a mistake and complained about a monster, even though the answers to my questions would have been apparent if I actually read the monster’s text” then trying to say that “no, it was Wizards who was wrong this whole time.”
Oh, look, maybe my least favorite notable D&D YouTuber, a grumpy old white man who's always complaining about anything new and snidely writing off young or new players as "snowflakes" and dismissing things like Harengon as Tumblr bait.
This is a dude who doesn't appear to have liked D&D in twenty years, no matter what he says, and spends most of his time complaining that his game of children's make-believe isn't "adult" enough, without actually even having a basis for that complaint.
I'm no huge fan of Treantmonk either, but at least he engages with the game as it is.
I completely disagree with you both. Timey whimey new Vecna doesn't look like the Vecna of the past. Does he?
Perhaps I'm an old school AD&D player who relished the gory ole days and has seen how much the style of the game has changed over the years? All I'm saying is, if Vecna has changed this drastically, then what does it say about future designs?
And hey, disagree if you want, but don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Mmk?
I completely disagree with you both. Timey whimey new Vecna doesn't look like the Vecna of the past. Does he?
Perhaps I'm an old school AD&D player who relished the gory ole days and has seen how much the style of the game has changed over the years? All I'm saying is, if Vecna has changed this drastically, then what does it say about future designs?
And hey, disagree if you want, but don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Mmk?
1. Yes. New editions get new art. If they made Vecna as a god (a point you have conveniently pivoted away from arguing to focus on something like “having new art”), he also would have had new art. Surely if you have been playing since AD&D you knew that.
2. Your point about the game being less “gory” is silly. There are plenty of horrifically terrifying elements of this game in 5th edition (the Corrupted Giant Shark, for example, in the most recent book of non-reprint content, clearly shows they are willing to make something like “shark covered in blood red crystals with creepy tentacle things). There were plenty of goofy things in First Edition (here’s looking at you Flail Snail).
Wizards has always, and continues to, provide content for players who like gory campaigns. If you are not able to play in a campaign as gory as the ones you played in your nostalgia-induced vision of AD&D, the problem is one created by you, your DM, and your other players, not one created by Wizards.
Perhaps I'm an old school AD&D player who relished the gory ole days and has seen how much the style of the game has changed over the years? All I'm saying is, if Vecna has changed this drastically, then what does it say about future designs?
It says that they'll respond to the market and the desires of the customer base in order to stay profitable, same as they always have.
Vecna as presented is fine. Wizards is not going to print an ascended version of Vecna cause there is no point. You cannot challenge a god and win. If you do win, that is because your GM allowed you to.
Perhaps I'm an old school AD&D player who relished the gory ole days and has seen how much the style of the game has changed over the years? All I'm saying is, if Vecna has changed this drastically, then what does it say about future designs?
The style has not changed. You can still run gritty, unforgiving games in 5e. Game play and style is really up to the GM, not Wizards, since GMs are the ones at the table actually running the game.
Vecna has not changed either. This is Vecna before he ascended. This level of nitpicking is like complaining about the Bilbo Baggins being too young and uppity in the Hobbit compared to his old and lethargic state in the Lord of the Rings. The Hobbit is the prequel to LOTR, so of course Bilbo is going to be young and adventurous.
Vecna is an important character in D&D, an IP that's very important to WoTC. Stranger Things shot Vecna into the mainstream limelight, and the future of D&D will be much more mainstream. Heck, D&D is mainstream now. So how does all this impact how the team at WoTC and Hasbro design the upcoming 2024 game and future products? And how do you feel about it?
I think that it is great to be more mainstream. You clearly have the priviledge of not having to experience one of your favorite game series being axed due to low sales.
Advance Wars is the first game I really enjoyed and it is what drew me into videogames. I love Fire Emblem and it is made by the same company as Advance Wars, but at the bottom of my heart, it will always feel like a knock off version of Advance Wars and there is always that ember of resentment that Fire Emblem cannabalized Advanced Wars. More than ten years later, I am still hearing about Nintendo making excuses about delaying Advance Wars with no ETAs in sight.
And do not get me started on Bionicle. They were freaking successful and still got axed.
Well, I'll try not to be such a curmudgeonly old name calling fart. I promise! lol
And may I point out, I think the artwork is at least as important as the text. It has always reflected changes in the game.
And yea, responding to the market is at the heart of what will drive change, certainly. And I hope they do it well.
Now, I think I've missed out one thing... and sure, there's the Corrupted Giant Shark and other things now. But will that change? Sure, like having a book of furry player characters to play they could just as easily make another for use old farts who think all you damn kids should get off my astral lawn. Sure. BUT... look at Vecna. I pointed him out for a reason. He's a core character in the game. He is the game, in a lot of ways. Just as other important IP characters are. Tasha, Elminster, Mordenkainen, etc. So if the new 5e does change them, then the new 5e will be a fundemental change for the core of the game. What D&D is, or will be.
And yea, I'm just speculating based on this one thing. But this seems a pretty drastic and vastly different Vecna.
“SNIP!" ... Now, is it more streamlined to run these new monster blocks? Yes. But that really is more about lowering the floor for DMing complexity - the ceiling for complexity is still as high as DM wants it to be. They are trying to solve one of D&D’s persistent problems (too many players, not enough DMs, and a perception that DMing is too hard for brand new DMs), but, in so doing, are not limiting experienced DMs from expanding beyond the basics.
I did think this was perhaps part of the coming changes. But I'm not sure if it could be a part of what I'm on about or if it's just a streamlining of the rules, as you say. Just a thought on my part.
2. Your point about the game being less “gory” is silly. There are plenty of horrifically terrifying elements of this game in 5th edition (the Corrupted Giant Shark, for example, in the most recent book of non-reprint content, clearly shows they are willing to make something like “shark covered in blood red crystals with creepy tentacle things). There were plenty of goofy things in First Edition (here’s looking at you Flail Snail).
Dont forget about the entirety of the new monsters from Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft. I think alot of those monsters do a fantastic job of being gritty/gory/scary monsters while also being mechanically scary to fight against. Van Richten's is still a pretty recent entry into 5e as well, so it seems doubtful WotC is moving away from these darker themes.
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Sure, like having a book of furry player characters to play they could just as easily make another for use old farts who think all you damn kids should get off my astral lawn.
Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft is that book - set on a plane that has been popular since 1983, each monster was more horrific than the last and the character options were things like vampires, hags, and Frankenstein’s monsters. There was little about it that could be called cutesy. It was published just last year and reportedly sold very well.
All evidence points toward Wizards continuing to provide the exact type of content you are looking for. They know that many players like darker campaigns or every so often adding a horror element to an otherwise light campaign. You have to stretch pretty far from “monster who does not look like what I thought he would look like” (though, objectively Vecna is a pretty creepy looking dude in his 5e art, with an emancipated frame, creepy inhuman eyes, etc.) to “maybe Wizards is abandoning something that has always been in the game and has historically been profitable.”
Edit: Apparently Kaboom979 and I were on the same wavelength, posting at almost the exact same time.
SNIP! ... The style has not changed. You can still run gritty, unforgiving games in 5e. Game play and style is really up to the GM, not Wizards, since GMs are the ones at the table actually running the game.
Vecna has not changed either. This is Vecna before he ascended. This level of nitpicking...
lol, good points all around. But I'm saying that Vecna has changed, and the art reflects this. Does it foreshadow a core change in the future?
I mean, you guys are right. You can just say yes, it is Vecna because yadda, yadda. But now he has lost signature things that made him recognizably Vecna and nothing else. After all, why does this this new Vecna have his hand and eye? Is there any reason you can tell me why that is? Why not have him without a hand and eye? I'm familiar with all the old modules and history, there's no reason even this "in the before time" Vecna couldn't be missing his hand and eye. Is there???
It's an in game explanation, sure, but as a character change, it seems like a rationalization of why this new Vecna art looks like this.
And yes of course, I'm not saying the gore, etc. will disappear. We can have the Ravenlofts, etc. But as I said, that shunts that content into it's own thing and away from what is the core game. And Vecna is a core character, and important IP to the business, and what D&D looks and feels like in general. So, I'm speculating that there's some core change coming.
Remember when the Ravenloft campaign setting first came out? I think the idea I'm expressing is similiar. That setting came out with 2e, when D&D was very watered down. No more demons or devils to be found at all, except shunted to supplements like the Ravenloft setting.
"People are going to see what they want to see." -a publisher for Gary Larson
Please, understand that we all are fully allowed our opinions, but finding that our view is coming up quite unique among the group is fine, too. Nobody here is right nor wrong.
The rationalizing I see here seems to be trying to defend a view that doesn't need defending.
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After all, why does this this new Vecna have his hand and eye? Is there any reason you can tell me why that is? Why not have him without a hand and eye? I'm familiar with all the old modules and history, there's no reason even this "in the before time" Vecna couldn't be missing his hand and eye. Is there???
With respect, you do not appear familiar with the models and history of Vecna. Your question is a bit like watching Star Wars: Episode 1, and asking “why does Darth Vader not have his breathing devices or anything else that makes him look like Darth Vader???”
Vecna lost his hand and his eye after he got blown to pieces fighting his second-in-command, Kas. That has been the story for decades. This version is before Kas betrayed Vecna, and thus before he lost his hand and eye.
He's a core character in the game. He is the game, in a lot of ways.
He really, really isn't. I've been playing since the Red Box days and have never once been in a campaign that encountered him or any of his relics
Also, as for the game not being "gory" enough for your tastes... Van Richten's is only about a year old
Oh, well, to be clear on that point; I'm pointing out that he's important to the business. Vecna is an important IP character of the game and any changes to the core game might be reflected in any future changes to any of the other important characters, settings, etc. that are owned by WoTC. My point of view is only upon the business end and how future publications will look and feel.
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Hi, Sorry if this has come up before, but I wanted to gage if people had a similar concern as I regarding how the new 5e game will be designed.
The new Vecna stat block we recently saw is my main evidence of a shift in the direction of the game. Now, I'm sure everyone here knows what's in the pipeline at WoTC already and what I'm on about. Watching Prof. Dungeon Master on YouTube recently got me thinking about the old 'pulp fiction' style D&D and what is to come. In short; what's to come is a less gory, horrific, and bloody design strategy and feel for a more sanitary and what was called more 'Marvel universe' feel. Heck, the new Vecna sorta looks like a Marvel villain, right?
Look at this new Vecna. Just the art itself. When you see it, do you even think it's Vecna? Well, no. It has two eyes and two hands. I've no idea what's up his nose. Is this Vecna? I think this is just a very big sign of what's to come. Anyone remember the fiasco back when 2e sanitized D&D into obscurity?
Now, I love the team at WoTC. They make me wonderful things! I love 5e, and have many of the books as well as my sub here at D&DB. And I think it's terrific that WoTC and Hasbro are gearing up for a massive D&D blitz next year and beyond, especially with the movie coming. And all the new flavours of D&D are great too; furry animals, feywild fairie frolics, etc. I think it's a terrific idea to drop a single style/flavour of D&D, in one world setting say, and offer lots of flavours of D&D. All good. But where the hell is Vecna? The evil lich almost god with his soul trapped in a jar somewhere, missing magical hand and eye that are powerful and pure evil?
I don't know, of course, but I do not want the more adult pulp aspects of D&D to disappear. After all, it's fun to have scary villains and monsters to play.
“The accompanying stat block depicts Vecna in his archlich form prior to Kas’s betrayal. Because Vecna is said to have mastered magic allowing him to travel through time, he can appear in this form even on worlds where his severed hand and eye are already known artifacts.”
It is Vecna, just when he was a lich prior to his apotheosis. Of course he has his hands and eyes - he hasn’t been blown to pieces in his fight with Kas yet.
As for “sanitisation” of the game - I have not watched whatever video you are talking about or even know who the person you reference is, but that sounds like poppycock. The “gory, horrific, and bloody” elements come from the DM and players, not from the game’s design. You can make an incredibly graphic campaign using just silly creatures from the Feywild, or a happy go lucky campaign using some of the truly horrific monsters Wizards has commissioned art for. Anyone who says “Wizards new design is more sanitised” is really just confessing their own limitations in storytelling ability.
Now, is it more streamlined to run these new monster blocks? Yes. But that really is more about lowering the floor for DMing complexity - the ceiling for complexity is still as high as DM wants it to be. They are trying to solve one of D&D’s persistent problems (too many players, not enough DMs, and a perception that DMing is too hard for brand new DMs), but, in so doing, are not limiting experienced DMs from expanding beyond the basics.
If you read the lore bits surrounding this Vecna stat block, it explicitly states that that stat block represents him before his hand/eye were stolen and before he became godlike. So the reason that this particular Vecna doesn't feel like "the evil lich almost god with his soul trapped in a jar somewhere, missing magical hand and eye that are powerful.." is because it simply isnt. This stat block is not meant to represent Vecna at his peak. Will they release that stat block down the line? Maybe, idk.
Also, the stuff about him looking/feeling watered down and like a "marvel villain" seems very subjective.
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IMHO... any text that explains why this new Vecna is the way he is, is just a rationalization of why this is Vecna, as opposed to simply looking at him and knowing it's that good old, evil, rotting, missing an eye and hand pure evil lich godling.
Vecna is an important character in D&D, an IP that's very important to WoTC. Stranger Things shot Vecna into the mainstream limelight, and the future of D&D will be much more mainstream. Heck, D&D is mainstream now. So how does all this impact how the team at WoTC and Hasbro design the upcoming 2024 game and future products? And how do you feel about it?
And there's a real difference between subjective views on something and completely different styles. A Steven King book can't be mistaken for Agatha Christy, but both still have mysteries, murder, and such.
Ah, I found the vid on YouTube that got me thinking this way.
Professor Dungeon master, and his show Dungeon Craft. Great stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--OivdmhkAs
No way of knowing. I am not a designer for WotC
I feel fine about it. Despite the change in design style for spellcasters, this pre-godlike Vecna is absolutely a force to be reckoned with.
Its subjective because the idea that he is "like a marvel villain" and that WotC is making things more like a marvel universe feel are literally your opinions. Stating how you feel about something is, by definition, stating something subjective about it.
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That is not a rationalisation - prequels are things that exist and there are good reasons to say “we want to give you guys a recognisable enemy you love, but at a level you might actually be able to kill, rather than have your party go against a major god.” The Vecna we received is exactly what Wizards set out to do - create a pre-apotheosis character. This is not the first time Wizards has taken this route (Urza and Yawgmoth in Magic were both printed in their creature form, not their respective Planeswalker and god forms), nor will it be the last. Some characters are just so big and famous that they likely cannot be killed even by a group of level 20s… but who players would still like to fight due to name recognition. So Wizards will either print their avatars or them at a weakened state (such as Tiamat post staying in Avernus for a while or Vecna as being printed before he became powerful).
A rationalisation is something like “oops, I made a mistake and complained about a monster, even though the answers to my questions would have been apparent if I actually read the monster’s text” then trying to say that “no, it was Wizards who was wrong this whole time.”
Oh, look, maybe my least favorite notable D&D YouTuber, a grumpy old white man who's always complaining about anything new and snidely writing off young or new players as "snowflakes" and dismissing things like Harengon as Tumblr bait.
This is a dude who doesn't appear to have liked D&D in twenty years, no matter what he says, and spends most of his time complaining that his game of children's make-believe isn't "adult" enough, without actually even having a basis for that complaint.
I'm no huge fan of Treantmonk either, but at least he engages with the game as it is.
I completely disagree with you both. Timey whimey new Vecna doesn't look like the Vecna of the past. Does he?
Perhaps I'm an old school AD&D player who relished the gory ole days and has seen how much the style of the game has changed over the years? All I'm saying is, if Vecna has changed this drastically, then what does it say about future designs?
And hey, disagree if you want, but don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Mmk?
1. Yes. New editions get new art. If they made Vecna as a god (a point you have conveniently pivoted away from arguing to focus on something like “having new art”), he also would have had new art. Surely if you have been playing since AD&D you knew that.
2. Your point about the game being less “gory” is silly. There are plenty of horrifically terrifying elements of this game in 5th edition (the Corrupted Giant Shark, for example, in the most recent book of non-reprint content, clearly shows they are willing to make something like “shark covered in blood red crystals with creepy tentacle things). There were plenty of goofy things in First Edition (here’s looking at you Flail Snail).
Wizards has always, and continues to, provide content for players who like gory campaigns. If you are not able to play in a campaign as gory as the ones you played in your nostalgia-induced vision of AD&D, the problem is one created by you, your DM, and your other players, not one created by Wizards.
It says that they'll respond to the market and the desires of the customer base in order to stay profitable, same as they always have.
Vecna as presented is fine. Wizards is not going to print an ascended version of Vecna cause there is no point. You cannot challenge a god and win. If you do win, that is because your GM allowed you to.
The style has not changed. You can still run gritty, unforgiving games in 5e. Game play and style is really up to the GM, not Wizards, since GMs are the ones at the table actually running the game.
Vecna has not changed either. This is Vecna before he ascended. This level of nitpicking is like complaining about the Bilbo Baggins being too young and uppity in the Hobbit compared to his old and lethargic state in the Lord of the Rings. The Hobbit is the prequel to LOTR, so of course Bilbo is going to be young and adventurous.
I think that it is great to be more mainstream. You clearly have the priviledge of not having to experience one of your favorite game series being axed due to low sales.
Advance Wars is the first game I really enjoyed and it is what drew me into videogames. I love Fire Emblem and it is made by the same company as Advance Wars, but at the bottom of my heart, it will always feel like a knock off version of Advance Wars and there is always that ember of resentment that Fire Emblem cannabalized Advanced Wars. More than ten years later, I am still hearing about Nintendo making excuses about delaying Advance Wars with no ETAs in sight.
And do not get me started on Bionicle. They were freaking successful and still got axed.
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Well, I'll try not to be such a curmudgeonly old name calling fart. I promise! lol
And may I point out, I think the artwork is at least as important as the text. It has always reflected changes in the game.
And yea, responding to the market is at the heart of what will drive change, certainly. And I hope they do it well.
Now, I think I've missed out one thing... and sure, there's the Corrupted Giant Shark and other things now. But will that change? Sure, like having a book of furry player characters to play they could just as easily make another for use old farts who think all you damn kids should get off my astral lawn. Sure. BUT... look at Vecna. I pointed him out for a reason. He's a core character in the game. He is the game, in a lot of ways. Just as other important IP characters are. Tasha, Elminster, Mordenkainen, etc. So if the new 5e does change them, then the new 5e will be a fundemental change for the core of the game. What D&D is, or will be.
And yea, I'm just speculating based on this one thing. But this seems a pretty drastic and vastly different Vecna.
I did think this was perhaps part of the coming changes. But I'm not sure if it could be a part of what I'm on about or if it's just a streamlining of the rules, as you say. Just a thought on my part.
Dont forget about the entirety of the new monsters from Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft. I think alot of those monsters do a fantastic job of being gritty/gory/scary monsters while also being mechanically scary to fight against. Van Richten's is still a pretty recent entry into 5e as well, so it seems doubtful WotC is moving away from these darker themes.
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Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft is that book - set on a plane that has been popular since 1983, each monster was more horrific than the last and the character options were things like vampires, hags, and Frankenstein’s monsters. There was little about it that could be called cutesy. It was published just last year and reportedly sold very well.
All evidence points toward Wizards continuing to provide the exact type of content you are looking for. They know that many players like darker campaigns or every so often adding a horror element to an otherwise light campaign. You have to stretch pretty far from “monster who does not look like what I thought he would look like” (though, objectively Vecna is a pretty creepy looking dude in his 5e art, with an emancipated frame, creepy inhuman eyes, etc.) to “maybe Wizards is abandoning something that has always been in the game and has historically been profitable.”
Edit: Apparently Kaboom979 and I were on the same wavelength, posting at almost the exact same time.
lol, good points all around. But I'm saying that Vecna has changed, and the art reflects this. Does it foreshadow a core change in the future?
I mean, you guys are right. You can just say yes, it is Vecna because yadda, yadda. But now he has lost signature things that made him recognizably Vecna and nothing else. After all, why does this this new Vecna have his hand and eye? Is there any reason you can tell me why that is? Why not have him without a hand and eye? I'm familiar with all the old modules and history, there's no reason even this "in the before time" Vecna couldn't be missing his hand and eye. Is there???
It's an in game explanation, sure, but as a character change, it seems like a rationalization of why this new Vecna art looks like this.
And yes of course, I'm not saying the gore, etc. will disappear. We can have the Ravenlofts, etc. But as I said, that shunts that content into it's own thing and away from what is the core game. And Vecna is a core character, and important IP to the business, and what D&D looks and feels like in general. So, I'm speculating that there's some core change coming.
Remember when the Ravenloft campaign setting first came out? I think the idea I'm expressing is similiar. That setting came out with 2e, when D&D was very watered down. No more demons or devils to be found at all, except shunted to supplements like the Ravenloft setting.
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Please, understand that we all are fully allowed our opinions, but finding that our view is coming up quite unique among the group is fine, too. Nobody here is right nor wrong.
The rationalizing I see here seems to be trying to defend a view that doesn't need defending.
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He really, really isn't. I've been playing since the Red Box days and have never once been in a campaign that encountered him or any of his relics
Also, as for the game not being "gory" enough for your tastes... Van Richten's is only about a year old
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With respect, you do not appear familiar with the models and history of Vecna. Your question is a bit like watching Star Wars: Episode 1, and asking “why does Darth Vader not have his breathing devices or anything else that makes him look like Darth Vader???”
Vecna lost his hand and his eye after he got blown to pieces fighting his second-in-command, Kas. That has been the story for decades. This version is before Kas betrayed Vecna, and thus before he lost his hand and eye.
Oh, well, to be clear on that point; I'm pointing out that he's important to the business. Vecna is an important IP character of the game and any changes to the core game might be reflected in any future changes to any of the other important characters, settings, etc. that are owned by WoTC. My point of view is only upon the business end and how future publications will look and feel.