It's also worth noting that the Dragonborn subraces in Explorer's Guide to Wildemount do in fact have darkvision, so it's not like the OP is the only one who thought of it.
Except that doesn't seem rational to me, because it's not like they're replacing those with a powerful ability like truesight or blindsight. It's darkvision, a trait half the races in this game have and a trait that doesn't really break the game in any real way.
So to be fair to the rest of the party this particular PC should get darkvision in addition to all the other racial abilities for nothing?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Except that doesn't seem rational to me, because it's not like they're replacing those with a powerful ability like truesight or blindsight. It's darkvision, a trait half the races in this game have and a trait that doesn't really break the game in any real way.
So to be fair to the rest of the party this particular PC should get darkvision in addition to all the other racial abilities for nothing?
It really depends on the type of dragonborn we're talking about. If it's the original in the Player's Handbook, the breath weapon really isn't anything to write home about and peters out pretty fast after the first few levels, which only really leaves the resistance as something notable. If it's in Fizban's, then I can see why maybe adding on more might be a bit unfair, as they do get more. It also depends on what the rest of the party is, and what they already have compared to what the dragonborn player does.
It is quite ubiquitous, yes. However, there is usually a lore reason behind it, and it is a valid question imo why a race connected to dragons and is made to invoke the feeling of playing a dragon to a certain extent, also happens to be one of those races that cannot see in the dark.
It is quite ubiquitous, yes. However, there is usually a lore reason behind it, and it is a valid question imo why a race connected to dragons and is made to invoke the feeling of playing a dragon to a certain extent, also happens to be one of those races that cannot see in the dark.
I mean, I don't understand why they don't have tails either
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It is quite ubiquitous, yes. However, there is usually a lore reason behind it, and it is a valid question imo why a race connected to dragons and is made to invoke the feeling of playing a dragon to a certain extent, also happens to be one of those races that cannot see in the dark.
I mean, I don't understand why they don't have tails either
like it was mentioned earlier...dragonborn are not half dragons, they're not created from dragons. The statement 'made to invoke the feeling of playing a dragon' is pure opinion and I suspect you'll find plenty of people who disagree with that statement. They should have tails just like goliaths, gnomes, dwarves, elves, and humans should have tails.
The statement 'made to invoke the feeling of playing a dragon' is pure opinion and I suspect you'll find plenty of people who disagree with that statement.
You didn't finish the statement. I said "to a certain extent" at the end of that, meaning while players might have found other reasons to play it, at the end of the day, the primary appeal of the race was the flavour of being a dragon person.
If someone played a dragonborn prior to Fizban's just for the resistance, ASI, and weak-as-heck breath weapon, especially in a full-length campaign where one of those starts becoming less and less useful over time, then I cast doubt on that. I will concede though that if you were playing in say an Arctic campaign, and you were only using PHB races, the dragonborn has a niche there because I don't think there are any other PHB races that can give you cold resistance automatically.
EDIT: Just to add another point, the ASI did (or still does, if you choose to ignore the current trend of ASIs not being specific anymore) facilitate playing a paladin or a Charisma-based gish-type character. So the PHB dragonborn does have some perks for highly specific circumstances.
It shouldn't be 'too' big of a deal unless your DM is just treating darkvision as a 'get out of non magical darkness free' card and ignoring that you still have disadvantage on perception checks to spot any enemies or traps when relying just on darkvision. Even with a party full of darkvision users it's not a bad idea to light up a torch in a lot of cases.
While dragons get darkvision, it also isn't really a core part of their appeal. I doubt anyone who picks dragonborn does so because 'dragons can see in the dark that's so cool!' The dragon theming is in the breath and resistance, and the general culture and aesthetics of the race. They don't need darkvision for that. And it's not realistic balancing wise to let them do EVERYTHING a dragon can do anyway. Dragons also get blindsight but it'd be crazy to give that to dragonborn. Dragons can fly but flight can often be problematic for PC races, etc.
If anything darkvision is a bit TOO common and shouls dhow up a bit LESS often on races.
It is quite ubiquitous, yes. However, there is usually a lore reason behind it, and it is a valid question imo why a race connected to dragons and is made to invoke the feeling of playing a dragon to a certain extent, also happens to be one of those races that cannot see in the dark.
I mean, I don't understand why they don't have tails either
like it was mentioned earlier...dragonborn are not half dragons, they're not created from dragons. The statement 'made to invoke the feeling of playing a dragon' is pure opinion and I suspect you'll find plenty of people who disagree with that statement. They should have tails just like goliaths, gnomes, dwarves, elves, and humans should have tails.
Or tieflings?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Tieflings are an entirely different conversation as they have ancestry rules unique to themselves. They're all direct descendant of Asmodeus. Sure SCAG says 'but now there's others', but that's just an out if someone doesn't want to say their blood is 50% goddevil.
Tieflings are an entirely different conversation as they have entirely unique ancestry rules. Each and everyone one of them is a direct descendant of Asmodeus.
Or other archdevils, if you have Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes. There's even an opportunity to become a tiefling of the lineage of a certain rakshasa in Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus. In the Eberron setting specifically, there is no Asmodeus, and the tieflings there are influenced by either the demonic energies coming from Khyber (the Eberron "Underdark") or the energies from any of the planes that have fiends in them. Also there are probably quite a few people who make tiefling characters who trace their lineage to demon lords and other fiends, but that's homebrew technically.
Or other archdevils, if you have Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes. There's even an opportunity to become a tiefling of the lineage of a certain rakshasa in Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus. In the Eberron setting specifically, there is no Asmodeus, and the tieflings there are influenced by either the demonic energies coming from Khyber (the Eberron "Underdark") or the energies from any of the planes that have fiends in them. Also there are probably quite a few people who make tiefling characters who trace their lineage to demon lords and other fiends, but that's homebrew technically.
agreed, my point being tieflings are unique and shouldn't really be lumped into any other category when saying 'but this race/creature has this, therefore this other race should have this'
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
All PC races have ancestry rules unique to themselves
Your argument as to why dragonborn don't have tails is basically "because they don't"
i never said they didn't and yes, although its more 'because they don't and they're not dragon offspring'...the last half is the more important part. Although 'because they don't' is completely valid as well.
All PC races have ancestry rules unique to themselves
Your argument as to why dragonborn don't have tails is basically "because they don't"
i never said they didn't and yes, although its more 'because they don't and they're not dragon offspring'...the last half is the more important part. Although 'because they don't' is completely valid as well.
So if you admit it's purely subjective and has no rational basis one way or the other, why are you arguing with me for thinking they should?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I don't have a problem playing by the rules, but a forum is a place to discuss whether the rules make sense and when DMs should call an audible. The point is exactly what Kotath highlights: when balancing races, Dragonborn don't get much considering the ability mods and racial traits of other races. My DM told me this is because in prior eds the DB were too powerful (had darkvision among many other traits), so they were cut back in 5e. Just seems to me the pendulum swung a little too far. But my DM declined my request, and we play on.
FWIW, in our last dungeon I found a glowing tome and strapped it to my chest with leather bits from my pack and armor. Awkward, kinda weird, not entirely effective, but at least I could see past the end of my sword and didn't have to walk around with my hand on an elf's shoulder. Later I found a longsword of warning after my group narrowly defeated some sort of foul-tempered werehyeena-ish thing that had two of us making death saving throws. Now at least when something nasty is nearby I have the glow of that. All playing by the rules and creatively, which is what DnD is all about. (If I just wanted a rules-based game without creativity I would play video games instead of interacting with and developing narratives with sentient beings.)
I know its frustrating but I think others have said before above me that they are not half dragons, they actually come from another world I believe? Mr Rhex on YouTube has an amazing series of "what they don't tell you about ___" in d&d where he goes back through all editions, games, and books and compiles the lore into an easy to listen to video almost always less than 30 mins long. My favorite one was when he was telling about Lizardfolk and then gnomes. Gnomes came from gemstones like rubies and stuff. It's wild. I highly recommend checking out his series to anyone.
I know its frustrating but I think others have said before above me that they are not half dragons, they actually come from another world I believe? Mr Rhex on YouTube has an amazing series of "what they don't tell you about ___" in d&d where he goes back through all editions, games, and books and compiles the lore into an easy to listen to video almost always less than 30 mins long. My favorite one was when he was telling about Lizardfolk and then gnomes. Gnomes came from gemstones like rubies and stuff. It's wild. I highly recommend checking out his series to anyone.
None of the prior edition lore automatically applies though. It is usually best to think of different editions as different parallel continuums where things were a little different.
Not entirely true. In a R.A. Salvatore novel a character that’s old enough to have been around since the 1st edition of AD&D was reincarnated and used her knowledge of the old “haste” spell to skip being a child to get to physical maturity. The old haste spell would age anyone affected by it by one year per casting. The old lore is great to use as plot hooks and ancient treasures found in long forgotten civilizations.
It's also worth noting that the Dragonborn subraces in Explorer's Guide to Wildemount do in fact have darkvision, so it's not like the OP is the only one who thought of it.
So to be fair to the rest of the party this particular PC should get darkvision in addition to all the other racial abilities for nothing?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
It really depends on the type of dragonborn we're talking about. If it's the original in the Player's Handbook, the breath weapon really isn't anything to write home about and peters out pretty fast after the first few levels, which only really leaves the resistance as something notable. If it's in Fizban's, then I can see why maybe adding on more might be a bit unfair, as they do get more. It also depends on what the rest of the party is, and what they already have compared to what the dragonborn player does.
It is quite ubiquitous, yes. However, there is usually a lore reason behind it, and it is a valid question imo why a race connected to dragons and is made to invoke the feeling of playing a dragon to a certain extent, also happens to be one of those races that cannot see in the dark.
I mean, I don't understand why they don't have tails either
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
like it was mentioned earlier...dragonborn are not half dragons, they're not created from dragons. The statement 'made to invoke the feeling of playing a dragon' is pure opinion and I suspect you'll find plenty of people who disagree with that statement. They should have tails just like goliaths, gnomes, dwarves, elves, and humans should have tails.
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
You didn't finish the statement. I said "to a certain extent" at the end of that, meaning while players might have found other reasons to play it, at the end of the day, the primary appeal of the race was the flavour of being a dragon person.
If someone played a dragonborn prior to Fizban's just for the resistance, ASI, and weak-as-heck breath weapon, especially in a full-length campaign where one of those starts becoming less and less useful over time, then I cast doubt on that. I will concede though that if you were playing in say an Arctic campaign, and you were only using PHB races, the dragonborn has a niche there because I don't think there are any other PHB races that can give you cold resistance automatically.
EDIT: Just to add another point, the ASI did (or still does, if you choose to ignore the current trend of ASIs not being specific anymore) facilitate playing a paladin or a Charisma-based gish-type character. So the PHB dragonborn does have some perks for highly specific circumstances.
It shouldn't be 'too' big of a deal unless your DM is just treating darkvision as a 'get out of non magical darkness free' card and ignoring that you still have disadvantage on perception checks to spot any enemies or traps when relying just on darkvision. Even with a party full of darkvision users it's not a bad idea to light up a torch in a lot of cases.
While dragons get darkvision, it also isn't really a core part of their appeal. I doubt anyone who picks dragonborn does so because 'dragons can see in the dark that's so cool!' The dragon theming is in the breath and resistance, and the general culture and aesthetics of the race. They don't need darkvision for that. And it's not realistic balancing wise to let them do EVERYTHING a dragon can do anyway. Dragons also get blindsight but it'd be crazy to give that to dragonborn. Dragons can fly but flight can often be problematic for PC races, etc.
If anything darkvision is a bit TOO common and shouls dhow up a bit LESS often on races.
Or tieflings?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Tieflings are an entirely different conversation as they have ancestry rules unique to themselves. They're all direct descendant of Asmodeus. Sure SCAG says 'but now there's others', but that's just an out if someone doesn't want to say their blood is 50% goddevil.
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
Or other archdevils, if you have Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes. There's even an opportunity to become a tiefling of the lineage of a certain rakshasa in Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus. In the Eberron setting specifically, there is no Asmodeus, and the tieflings there are influenced by either the demonic energies coming from Khyber (the Eberron "Underdark") or the energies from any of the planes that have fiends in them. Also there are probably quite a few people who make tiefling characters who trace their lineage to demon lords and other fiends, but that's homebrew technically.
agreed, my point being tieflings are unique and shouldn't really be lumped into any other category when saying 'but this race/creature has this, therefore this other race should have this'
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
All PC races have ancestry rules unique to themselves
Your argument as to why dragonborn don't have tails is basically "because they don't"
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
i never said they didn't and yes, although its more 'because they don't and they're not dragon offspring'...the last half is the more important part. Although 'because they don't' is completely valid as well.
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
So if you admit it's purely subjective and has no rational basis one way or the other, why are you arguing with me for thinking they should?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
[REDACTED]
I don't have a problem playing by the rules, but a forum is a place to discuss whether the rules make sense and when DMs should call an audible. The point is exactly what Kotath highlights: when balancing races, Dragonborn don't get much considering the ability mods and racial traits of other races. My DM told me this is because in prior eds the DB were too powerful (had darkvision among many other traits), so they were cut back in 5e. Just seems to me the pendulum swung a little too far. But my DM declined my request, and we play on.
FWIW, in our last dungeon I found a glowing tome and strapped it to my chest with leather bits from my pack and armor. Awkward, kinda weird, not entirely effective, but at least I could see past the end of my sword and didn't have to walk around with my hand on an elf's shoulder. Later I found a longsword of warning after my group narrowly defeated some sort of foul-tempered werehyeena-ish thing that had two of us making death saving throws. Now at least when something nasty is nearby I have the glow of that. All playing by the rules and creatively, which is what DnD is all about. (If I just wanted a rules-based game without creativity I would play video games instead of interacting with and developing narratives with sentient beings.)
I know its frustrating but I think others have said before above me that they are not half dragons, they actually come from another world I believe? Mr Rhex on YouTube has an amazing series of "what they don't tell you about ___" in d&d where he goes back through all editions, games, and books and compiles the lore into an easy to listen to video almost always less than 30 mins long. My favorite one was when he was telling about Lizardfolk and then gnomes. Gnomes came from gemstones like rubies and stuff. It's wild. I highly recommend checking out his series to anyone.
Work with your dm to do like a ritual or something that will help you gain it.
Not entirely true. In a R.A. Salvatore novel a character that’s old enough to have been around since the 1st edition of AD&D was reincarnated and used her knowledge of the old “haste” spell to skip being a child to get to physical maturity. The old haste spell would age anyone affected by it by one year per casting. The old lore is great to use as plot hooks and ancient treasures found in long forgotten civilizations.
Salvatore has not been especially concerned with keeping his novels consistent with Forgotten Realms lore ever since 3rd Edition rolled around.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.