So for a campaigns I'm working on a player of mine wants to seek out some of the oldest creatures in the multiverse in order to glean some information about the beginnings of all things. I figured this was a cool idea and have been doing some research into what sort of creature they would look for, even though obviously this would be very late game.
However, my research has hit a snag as I'm torn between two incredible old creature types which somewhat fit the mark, the Aboleth (who are older than the gods), and the Baernaloth (Creators of the Yugoloths, also older than the gods). I'm so far unable to determine which race is older, or if there is an even older race. Does anyone have any insight into the matter?
Sidenote: I hade considered Dagon, for he was already quite ancient when Obox-Ob became the first Prince of Demons (before there were any actual demons) and was so powerful the Queen of Chaos refused to fight him, he's still a demon lord, but the Obyriths supposedly came from another reality so I ruled him out.
Close, Pale Night is an Obyrith Lord, much like Dagon, Obox-Ob, and Pazuzu. They came to this reality from the Seed of Evil when Tharizun planted it in the Elemental Chaos and from the seed sprung the infinite layers of the abyss. The Obyrith Lords created many of the first demons though several demon lords are former Primordials (Orcus, Baphomet, etc.)
Despite this, Dagon was the eldest of their kind who came from beyond, and Dwiergus, who tutored Baphomet, was also considered older than her. Suffice to say the Obyriths in this reality do not predate the gods, though they do predate the Demons (tanar'ri). However the Baernaloth might predate the gods, because they were formed by the (assuming I have this correct) "concepts" of "evil" in order for the ideological forces of evil, good, law, and chaos to war with each other before the establishment of the planes? Some rumors (spread by them and the yugoloths) tell of how the Baernaloth created the Yugoloths, and from them the Ancient Baatorians and the Obyriths, and from them the Baatezu Devils and the Tanar'ri Demons respectively (although much of this is unlikely).
Oddly enough, according to my research the City of Sigil was already there at the time.
Part of the problem with keeping track of these sorts of things is that the lore sometimes changes within the edition. When you factor in the lack of consistency between editions it goes bananas. Or will drive you bananas.
Speaking of which, I believe one version of Asmodeus's multiple-choice-past is that he's an elder evil that predates the gods. Even though these days the story that he's a fallen celestial is more popular.
I'm not sure since the official lore of 5e is so screwed up, but I think Illithids were sort of time travelers that traveled back from the "end of time" to somewhere in the Multiverse past. I'd also suggest Primordials, as beings as ancient as gods. Any of the Arch Fiends or the Arch Angels as well. But the Aboleths are certainly solid.
Part of the problem with keeping track of these sorts of things is that the lore sometimes changes within the edition. When you factor in the lack of consistency between editions it goes bananas. Or will drive you bananas.
Speaking of which, I believe one version of Asmodeus's multiple-choice-past is that he's an elder evil that predates the gods. Even though these days the story that he's a fallen celestial is more popular.
I always loved that idea of Asmodeus. He wasn't so much a god as a cosmic being of power equal or greater than the gods. Additionally It was suggested that the Asmodeus that was the face of the Ruler of Hell was something more of an Avatar of the Greater Entity that lay hidden in the deepest depths of Hell.
I think the funniest things about Devils/Baatezu in general, Asmodeus included, is that no one knows where they came from, not when but where. Not even the Baernaloths or the Aboleths. What is known is that Baator/the Nine Hells was inhabited long before the devils got there by ancient Baatorians, the remnants of which remain only as Nupperibo. The Devils came from somewhere took over with the Baatorians already in decline and much like the Demons, claimed to be the eldest fiends in the lower planes.
Supposedly no creature knows more about the inhabitants of the lower planes than the Baernaloths, which would indicate that they are older than any fiend. By the necessity that they predate Obyriths and therefore demons, they predate the Blood War and likely to some degree the Dawn War.
As Aboleth profess to have known the world since before the arrival of the gods it's safe to say they are equally as old.
I am aware lore changes occur between editions and especially between settings, for example Zargon the Returner is stated to be an Elder Baatorian in the Elder Evils book but was never stated to be one in any previous source. In such cases I use whatever material is most prevalent when making lore decisions, "how many sources dictate that the Obyriths came from another reality vs how many dictate that they were made by the Baernaloths" kind of thing.
From my memory the Baernaloths were actually more associated with the Yugoloths and a skeptical thread linked them to Pale Knight (maybe). There was something about them and the ancient Baatorians but I don't believe it was even suggested that they came from or were responsible for the Devils. But of course there is no true Canon in 5e any more if ever and the internal history of the Multiverse has been through too many reasons to be reliable.
It seems more likely that there is no real official canon anymore. My personal preference has been that the Nine Hells of Baator were actually created by the fall of the Overlord of Hell and that the first fiends were born of his blood, until the Overlord came to sluggish awareness and reigned his children in.
A comment on obyriths: the 4e flavor text for Dagon implies that Tharizdun may have opened up the first portals to the abyss, rather than having created it, and that Dagon, and thus the obyriths, were there when that happened. I like that story.
If your multiverse includes all that is ever written in D&D then probably the oldest would be the Cthulhu mythos from the original Deities & Demi gods. However, if I were to do something like you are planning, I think I would make my own primordial beings that the players would need to discover through research that would take them across the multiverse. I generally find it more interesting to introduce things that cannot be found on the internet.
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So for a campaigns I'm working on a player of mine wants to seek out some of the oldest creatures in the multiverse in order to glean some information about the beginnings of all things. I figured this was a cool idea and have been doing some research into what sort of creature they would look for, even though obviously this would be very late game.
However, my research has hit a snag as I'm torn between two incredible old creature types which somewhat fit the mark, the Aboleth (who are older than the gods), and the Baernaloth (Creators of the Yugoloths, also older than the gods). I'm so far unable to determine which race is older, or if there is an even older race. Does anyone have any insight into the matter?
Sidenote: I hade considered Dagon, for he was already quite ancient when Obox-Ob became the first Prince of Demons (before there were any actual demons) and was so powerful the Queen of Chaos refused to fight him, he's still a demon lord, but the Obyriths supposedly came from another reality so I ruled him out.
IIRC, Pale Night is the oldest being in the Abyss and possibly predates the existence of the multiverse. Aboleths are of a similar age.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Close, Pale Night is an Obyrith Lord, much like Dagon, Obox-Ob, and Pazuzu. They came to this reality from the Seed of Evil when Tharizun planted it in the Elemental Chaos and from the seed sprung the infinite layers of the abyss. The Obyrith Lords created many of the first demons though several demon lords are former Primordials (Orcus, Baphomet, etc.)
Despite this, Dagon was the eldest of their kind who came from beyond, and Dwiergus, who tutored Baphomet, was also considered older than her. Suffice to say the Obyriths in this reality do not predate the gods, though they do predate the Demons (tanar'ri). However the Baernaloth might predate the gods, because they were formed by the (assuming I have this correct) "concepts" of "evil" in order for the ideological forces of evil, good, law, and chaos to war with each other before the establishment of the planes? Some rumors (spread by them and the yugoloths) tell of how the Baernaloth created the Yugoloths, and from them the Ancient Baatorians and the Obyriths, and from them the Baatezu Devils and the Tanar'ri Demons respectively (although much of this is unlikely).
Oddly enough, according to my research the City of Sigil was already there at the time.
Part of the problem with keeping track of these sorts of things is that the lore sometimes changes within the edition. When you factor in the lack of consistency between editions it goes bananas. Or will drive you bananas.
Speaking of which, I believe one version of Asmodeus's multiple-choice-past is that he's an elder evil that predates the gods. Even though these days the story that he's a fallen celestial is more popular.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I'm not sure since the official lore of 5e is so screwed up, but I think Illithids were sort of time travelers that traveled back from the "end of time" to somewhere in the Multiverse past. I'd also suggest Primordials, as beings as ancient as gods. Any of the Arch Fiends or the Arch Angels as well. But the Aboleths are certainly solid.
I always loved that idea of Asmodeus. He wasn't so much a god as a cosmic being of power equal or greater than the gods. Additionally It was suggested that the Asmodeus that was the face of the Ruler of Hell was something more of an Avatar of the Greater Entity that lay hidden in the deepest depths of Hell.
I think the funniest things about Devils/Baatezu in general, Asmodeus included, is that no one knows where they came from, not when but where. Not even the Baernaloths or the Aboleths. What is known is that Baator/the Nine Hells was inhabited long before the devils got there by ancient Baatorians, the remnants of which remain only as Nupperibo. The Devils came from somewhere took over with the Baatorians already in decline and much like the Demons, claimed to be the eldest fiends in the lower planes.
Supposedly no creature knows more about the inhabitants of the lower planes than the Baernaloths, which would indicate that they are older than any fiend. By the necessity that they predate Obyriths and therefore demons, they predate the Blood War and likely to some degree the Dawn War.
As Aboleth profess to have known the world since before the arrival of the gods it's safe to say they are equally as old.
I am aware lore changes occur between editions and especially between settings, for example Zargon the Returner is stated to be an Elder Baatorian in the Elder Evils book but was never stated to be one in any previous source. In such cases I use whatever material is most prevalent when making lore decisions, "how many sources dictate that the Obyriths came from another reality vs how many dictate that they were made by the Baernaloths" kind of thing.
From my memory the Baernaloths were actually more associated with the Yugoloths and a skeptical thread linked them to Pale Knight (maybe). There was something about them and the ancient Baatorians but I don't believe it was even suggested that they came from or were responsible for the Devils. But of course there is no true Canon in 5e any more if ever and the internal history of the Multiverse has been through too many reasons to be reliable.
It seems more likely that there is no real official canon anymore. My personal preference has been that the Nine Hells of Baator were actually created by the fall of the Overlord of Hell and that the first fiends were born of his blood, until the Overlord came to sluggish awareness and reigned his children in.
A comment on obyriths: the 4e flavor text for Dagon implies that Tharizdun may have opened up the first portals to the abyss, rather than having created it, and that Dagon, and thus the obyriths, were there when that happened. I like that story.
If your multiverse includes all that is ever written in D&D then probably the oldest would be the Cthulhu mythos from the original Deities & Demi gods. However, if I were to do something like you are planning, I think I would make my own primordial beings that the players would need to discover through research that would take them across the multiverse. I generally find it more interesting to introduce things that cannot be found on the internet.